I have a pre 41F trust that I have an SBR assigned to. Under the new post 41F rules even if I have a trust I still need to submit fingerprints and a passport photo. The only benefit I see to a trust at that point is allowing people I appoint to have possession of the items in the trust. Am I missing something here? I'm looking to add an item or two to my NFA holdings and am waffling on having my trust restated or not.
Suppressors Whats the point of a trust now?
- Thread starter phantasm
- Start date
Nope you have it. Only benefit is others can be added to trust.
I did the trust back in the day to circumvent the bullshit. My last two were individual. Faster approval times, no need to chase down prints of those on the trust.
I have no one to pass these onto anyways. Should that day ever come, they can be added to my trust and pay for the stamps.
just my opinion.
I have no one to pass these onto anyways. Should that day ever come, they can be added to my trust and pay for the stamps.
just my opinion.
Why the need to restate the Trust? I have a pre-41F trust as well and will be adding more items to it. Photo and fingerprints are easy.
I guess the main reason then would to remove the ex-wife as a successor and subordinate trustee. I don't want her having access to anything. For that matter, it might be best to have it restated with me and my son as a beneficiary. The new wife could be appointed a subordinate trustee so if we ever divorce it's easy to remove her.
I agree that prints and pictures are easy. Not really a big deal there.
I can see the benefit both ways. I have a trust for a SBR that I did before the rules changed, everything after that is individual. My stuff isn't used unless I'm there to supervise. My kids are older and if they want a SBR or suppressor they can jump through the hoops if they want. When I kick the bucket my family can do a form 5 tax free transfer and be done with it, if not they can simply sell them.
Maybe a lawyer can chime in, but isn't any property that is in a trust NOT subject to garnishment by law, whether through divorce, death, bankruptcy, etc.?
So in theory, you could put more things than just your NFA items in a trust and they would be protected as they are not "owned" by you, but by the trust.
Am I off on this at all?
So in theory, you could put more things than just your NFA items in a trust and they would be protected as they are not "owned" by you, but by the trust.
Am I off on this at all?
I added several people to my trust several years ago and now I have to submit their info every time I want to add an can or sbr. I really messed that up. I think I may just start filing individual.
You must do a removal of all the other trustees during the processing time of adding additional Form 1 or 4 items. You can do the "add/removal" document and then destroy it or save it for any additional items if you wish. As your documents are not saved by the ATF, the Trust is yours to deal with as you see fit. Just send the doc with your paperwork whenever you file for new NFA items. To make it uber legit, you must remove individuals when filing and add them back after approval each time. Trusts are the way to go every time as they give more flexibility in the long run. Just think red flag laws here- your best friend just became your really best friend...
Great point. Thank you
That's a really good point. I have an ex who likes causing me issues so I should restate my trust and keep it up to date and continue to use it going forward.
However, since I have a silencer on order with my trust I need to wait until that completes before I can do so. At least that's my understanding.
I did my first one last year. I did it mainly for possession and transfer of my stuff if I'm not around or when something happens to me.
I see value in it, seems pretty simple to make changes, although I haven't had to do that yet.
I see value in it, seems pretty simple to make changes, although I haven't had to do that yet.
Not a lawyer, but that is EXACTLY what my attorney told me. All of my things on on my trust. Everything.
Remember, there are more laws out there then just the NFA ones.
You are not allowed to change a trust while a new item is pending, but who will know as they are never checked. The unfortunate thing is that I always seem to have fomething in the pipeline and have to be the only one on the trust until I finish purchasing toys...
This is exactly how my lawyer advised me to do it.
This gets very complicated. There are trusts that you have control over and trusts you *technically* do not control but benefit from.
A trust you control basically worthless against garnishment protection. It’s the same as owning the items or currency.
Control would be if you say, during a marriage (or at anytime) took out money that wasn’t scheduled and bought a house or car.
So, even if you have a non controlled trust, the minute you exercise personal control over it, the courts can recognize it as a sham for attempting to shield your assets.
Again, this is highly complicated and needs to be closely monitored by an attorney and all actions need to be monitored as well to ensure you don’t open the trust up for litigation.
I figured it was more complicated than I thought...of course why would I ever assume something that involved lawyers to be simple lol
This is true and the reason that I have an attorney to assist in the operation of my Trust.
Just like anything else, there are rules that have to be followed.
I’m not very educated on the subject, but I’d imagine it’s only worthwhile if you have enough assets to need protecting?
The average person probably wouldn’t want to deal with the expense of the attorney. Again, I’m completely assuming.
Mine started out as a trust strictly for NFA items many years ago. But the principle is the same. If you get a good trust, it can evolve.
Since then it has evolved along with my financialsituation. And yes, you are correct about the expence.
"Responsible person" and "Trustee" are two different things in a trust. If you want some other person in your trust to have access to your NFA items while you are alive and not around to supervise they need to be "Responsible" persons with every trust. Removing persons and putting them back into the trust later can get sticky and complicated. See a lawyer if you are doing a trust.
I had my pre-41f trust drawn up by Arsenal Attorneys. Worked grat on my form 1 SBR. I'll likely be consulting with them again.
I always thought this was based on how your trust is worded. It was my understanding that if the definition of Co-Trustee within your trust allows it, then it’s good. “Responsible Persons” was added later under Obama administration correct?
Basically they're the same thing.
A lot of what ATF does is up to how they interpret it today, which can change tomorrow. Removing a co-trustee or responsible person before submitting the application and then putting them back on later is open to interpretation and argument every day. This may well work out for many years to come however what ATF interprets tomorrow may be totally different then today, see bump stocks, see pistols with a "brace".
If something would happen to you after you removed every co-trustee or responsible person except yourself, and before your application was approved, you could be screwed, depending on how the trust is worded.
We all know the intention of ATF was to have every co-trustee or responsible person to have a background check done, and their gimme was no LEO sign off. Removing co-trustee or responsible persons then putting them back on later is avoiding this. Not saying its right or wrong, or how the trust works, but it's open to debate, even lawyers have different opinions on this issue, or how any given lawyer interprets it. ATF rules can be confusing even on the same subject.
There are other ways to transfer NFA items after your death, even with having a normal Living Trust and not a NFA Trust. This is why I don't like internet trust sites. See a trust lawyer in person who has knowledge about this stuff and will be there when you die to cover your families ass if ATF interprets something different later on.
My situation my be different then yours. I don't have all my stuff in NFA trust, I have one item that was done before the rules change, but my family will still get my NFA stuff if they want it when I die, if not it can be sold. That's what I have a lawyer for.
A lot of what ATF does is up to how they interpret it today, which can change tomorrow. Removing a co-trustee or responsible person before submitting the application and then putting them back on later is open to interpretation and argument every day. This may well work out for many years to come however what ATF interprets tomorrow may be totally different then today, see bump stocks, see pistols with a "brace".
If something would happen to you after you removed every co-trustee or responsible person except yourself, and before your application was approved, you could be screwed, depending on how the trust is worded.
We all know the intention of ATF was to have every co-trustee or responsible person to have a background check done, and their gimme was no LEO sign off. Removing co-trustee or responsible persons then putting them back on later is avoiding this. Not saying its right or wrong, or how the trust works, but it's open to debate, even lawyers have different opinions on this issue, or how any given lawyer interprets it. ATF rules can be confusing even on the same subject.
There are other ways to transfer NFA items after your death, even with having a normal Living Trust and not a NFA Trust. This is why I don't like internet trust sites. See a trust lawyer in person who has knowledge about this stuff and will be there when you die to cover your families ass if ATF interprets something different later on.
My situation my be different then yours. I don't have all my stuff in NFA trust, I have one item that was done before the rules change, but my family will still get my NFA stuff if they want it when I die, if not it can be sold. That's what I have a lawyer for.
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