Where Is Our Sport Going?

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,794
49
Michigan
In light of the 2010 Fall Shooter’s Bash having become a four-day competition I’ve been thinking about the rapid growth of practical long range rifle shooting.

A recent Thread discussed the NRA creating a ‘tactical rifle shooting’ coordinator. My post on that Thread can be found here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...032#Post2124032

Sitting here tonight I have a few more observations, this time regarding recent growth in popularity of the sport:

Shooting organizations like the NRA may seek to define the sport of practical long range rifle shooting. If that happens, as it did twenty years ago with practical pistol shooting, the crucial aspects of the sport will become regulated by manufacturers, politicians, and media - in short, by outsiders. I call them ‘outsiders’ because their intent is to sell things, like shooting instruction, gear and gadgets, and to do this they will need to bend the sport to suit their own agendas and interests.

The problem for us is that each step we take down this path diminishes the integrity of the discipline we have created. The reality is that there is no other way but publicity if the goal is to make what we do more accessible to more people. Enter the purists: I think that what concerns them most is that some appreciate the value of a circle kept small. Why? Because to give-up the freedom and autonomy we have now is also to undermine the foundations of what we are doing.

The freedom to design courses of fire and a lack of match rules are what make what we do different from the other shooting sports. This freedom invites not only those who disagree with the structure and rules of other shooting competitions, but also those who refuse to conform to the ready-to-go formulas for weekend competition on square ranges. I respect the achievements of Benchresters but I, for one, would not drive across the country to shoot the exact same course of fire that I shot last weekend at home.

Do you want to be required to earn the right to compete against the best in the country by taking part in a laborious, points-oriented structured classification and elimination process? Right now, if you want to try your hand against the best practical rifle shooters in the country you are free to do so: Buy a rifle, register for a big match, jump into your car and come down. You may finish last, but there are no artificial restrictions in your way that prevent you from trying. To me, that kind of freedom is part of what is unique about living in the United States (as compared to, for example, what passes for free-living in Europe).

In three years I have seen Sniper’s Hide grow from barely twenty-five thousand members to almost fifty-thousand today. In some ways that’s good, and it’s especially good for those who make their living from the disposable income of the community. This increase in popularity is probably due in large part to shows on Discovery and The History Channel which made ‘sniper’ matches and ‘sniping’ part of the pop-culture in a wartime decade. The media now links what we do with the so-called ‘sniper’ rifles that we reportedly use, probably because it makes for better television appeal. I even have it on good authority that these ‘sniper’ shows are some of the top-rated shows on those networks. And more public appeal means more advertising revenue. But the truth is that ‘sniping’, whatever that is, has very little to do with the shooting we do at the matches and nothing to do with the reasons why we compete.

In the United States it is probably heresy to argue against the intrinsic value of more people making more money faster and easier, but in my mind the fundamental question still won’t go away: Do we not have a responsibility to the future integrity of the sport? I think we do. I have seen dedicated shooters and friends climb inside the media machine only to lose both the spirit of competition and the love of shooting that they once had. Of course they paid-off their house, but in return they don’t seem as happy as they once were, just more popular and more distracted, with more to lose.

The older I get the more difficult it is for me to be satisfied competing for the judgment of others. I participated stridently in the growth of IPSC. But I am now at a point in my own development that I no longer care whether or not I win a shooting match. After all, it’s just a shooting match. Today, if you met me at a public range you would see someone who keeps mostly to himself. I help those who ask me for it, but when I give a friend shooting advice I don’t send him a bill for my time. Because what is really for sale has nothing to do with shooting: it’s the gadgets, the gear, the clothing, the bullshit and the bragging rights - all of which I couldn’t care less about.

Sniping will exist whether or not there are ‘sniper’ competitions. And snipers will exist regardless of whether someone in authority gives them a certificate, a ‘hog’s tooth’, and a pay-grade which requires them to sit around with nothing to do most of the time. For me, shooting is something I do for myself. I do it when I want to do it and how I want to do it. I’ve been reasonably successful at it. But I’ve also made an ass of myself pretending that I was better at it than someone else.

In my opinion we don’t need an organization to determine who is ‘Top Shot’. We don’t need to spend our spare time indulging in that ever-so-human desire to measure, compare, qualify and quantify and classify and control other people that we see in our daily lives. And we don’t need to organize into otherwise irrelevant groups for the sake of dictating terms to others in the group. After all, no one really cares what someone else wants to stop him from doing anyway. Because whether or not you agree with me, that’s not what this sport is about.

Call me an elitist if you wish, but I am in favor of there being real effort required to become involved in the sport of long-range tactical rifle shooting. I go to Shreveport to shoot Terry’s match because it’s Terry and Jim’s match. I go to Texas to shoot Jacob’s match because it’s Jacob’s match. I travel far because that’s the only way I can get there. I don’t care where I place in the official standings because I learn from the people I meet there, most of which are also there to do the same. If I go to the match, and Jacob says to put the barrel on a wire, then I put the barrel on a wire. I don’t care if it’s ‘against the rules’ of organized competition: I either learn something from doing it or I don’t. That’s the standard. It’s the only true standard. And, either way, what I take from it is not up to someone else, it’s up to me. What matters is what the experience of the match means to the shooter, not whether what we do is grist for someone else’s mill.

See you all at Rifles Only in December.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

I am with you, how ever i feel that every thing the NRA gets involved in gets changed so that it is "politically correct" so to speak.

I would like to see allot more people get interested in long range, i would love to have a buddy near me so "show me the way of the force" so to speak, but i would hate to see long range get so popular that it starts getting bent this way and bent that way until your not sure what is truth and fiction about our sport.

well thats how i feel any way
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

I respect you Graham but I disagree with you on this one. Let me tell you why.

I think that anything to get more people involved in our "sport" is better for the entire industry. I look at it like the automotive industry. You have Harley's, crotch rockets, street rods, customs, drag racers, low riders, 4X4's etc etc. Everyone seems to find their niche.

As for money, the more money that get into the industry tends to improve the industry. Sometimes you get scam artists but you also get creative never thought of before moments of "why didn't I think of that?".

Some of my greatest joys in life is to bring new shooters into our demented world (said with an evil Dr. Frankenstein voice).

Lots of people driving the bus, lots of people driving Hyundai's, lots of people drive Chevy's, and some drive Lambo's and Ferrari's. I am a Chevy owner, that can drive better than most Ferrari drivers. I love America.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

I see what you are saying: That there is (political) strength in numbers and a great deal of benefit to all of us in getting more people involved in the shooting sports. Look, if someone decides to take up shooting instead of golf, then I'm happy. After all, it's all shooting and people should be free to do whatever they want with it. As with motorcycling, I have said that as long as you're on two wheels it's a good thing as far as I am concerned.

But that doesn't mean that I hang with the Harley crowd (not that they'd have me, mind you). Because a bike that doesn't go, doesn't stop, and doesn't go around corners holds no interest for me.

I guess what I am saying is that we are defined by what we do, not what we say, and that each of us must accept responsibility for the way our choices affect the future of the sport.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

i feel your pain of the double edged sword. being slightly younger i grew up with skateboarding and lucky enough to get involved with jiu-jitsu in the late 80s/early 90s. it may seem childish but these things were a large part of my life and i was involved for the pure love and challenge of them, and sharing that with others who felt the same way was a huge part of it. in walked things such as the X games and UFC, and while at first i was happy that some of these immensly talented people finally get the recognition they deserve and aquire the means to stop living in efficency apartments, at the same time it did not take very long to realize that the vast control of our sports had fallen into the hands of people who knew nothing about it except how to profit from it and exploit athletes. now we have gimicky skateboard fashion adds and big juiced up jock shitbags with Tapout shirts telling me how he "tapped out" some dude in a club with an arm bar. more likely he choked him out with the overwhelmimg stench of his AXE body spray.

i am a late bloomer into this sport and try my absolute best to never be a part of this problem. i hope these changes will help more than hinder but its usually like trying to stop a train. fortunately american society has an amazingly short attention span and in the end we will hopefully just gain some advancements of facilities and equipment from it.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

For my .02, I don't compete in comps. I plan to attend Steve's shoot because it's fairly close and I would like to see how an event runs. Besides, I might get to meet some of you guys and, for the most part, that would be good
grin.gif
As for the future of "the sport," I have mixed thoughts.

First, as the popularity of Snipery stuff continues to grow, it will bring in more and more COD types who will continue to irritate and/or entertain the serious. The danger is that this could move to an Arfcomnification of precision shooting where the idiots shove out the serious who don't want to put up with the BS any longer. Another factor is the public "face" of the sport. Who will answer the media on our behalf, as we move forward?

Second, organized competition breeds specialized gear. IPSC has brought us the advent of the race gun which has very little practical use in the day to day world. I think as we move forward, we will see a break from the MIL/LE style weapons toward race rigs which are set up specifically for comps. This is not a bad thing. It will just bring a division within the ranks which, in and of itself, may prove to better define the dividing lines. We go to great lengths here to differentiate between "Sniper" equipment and "Precision shooting" equipment. That differentiation lies within the MIL/LE vs civilian role. Those who are not officially sanctioned to function in a Sniper slot do not get to use the "S" word without ridicule. Rightfully so, I might add. As we move forward, I think we will see two different streams within the precision shooting world.

Finally, more numbers doesn't necessarily mean an advancement in the sport. It just means more numbers. From the gear side, I think it will be positive. More numbers create more demand for diverse products. Manufacturers will respond with robust R @ D and price points. Furthermore, with the increased market, economies of scale will bring prices down while bringing profits up. We all win. On the negative side, we will be glutted with a myriad of products, many of which will be crap. Look what has happened in the black rifle market. We have moved a long way from the old SP1. Rails have brought worts of mind numbing quantity. I have actually been embarrassed for the idiots who clutter their weapons up with all the gaudy Buck Rogers junk who want to look like Delta operators.

I hope the pros will outnumber the Joes in our sport. And I hope that the serious will out voice the idiots.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

Here's a quote from a guy a lot smarter than I am....

"Embrace the wannabe's, they are the future of what you are and what you love. "

We all tend to find a niche, plant a flag in it and quickly deem others not worthy to partake, but much the same way we found our niche, if we handle the growth appropriately we can teach that next generation to make honor tradition while making it better.
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

From my view from helping run the Sporting Rifle Match at the NRAWC the popularity of long range precision shooting has grown exponentially since we started . When we started the average attendance of 10 shooters a month to 40 to 70 a month .

During that time there have been numerous new shooters and what we have seen is that as we all know its not as simple a plunking down your cash and being able to shoot accurately . The guys that put in the time and effort to get better have stuck around and have gotten better and the ones that don't haven't shot once or twice and left . In that sense it has been a self regulating kind of situation and the flakes that haven't put in the work just don't last . We always try to help the new guy's as much as we can to shorten the learning curve but some of them just don't stick out the rough start till they get comfortable with it .

In the end the more shooters we get the better off we are .

I don't think the " spirit " of the game will ever go away . This is evident in the action sports as the outlaw 3gun matches regularly sell out in seconds and the USPSA matches regularly don't fill up . This will work out to a simple supply and demand issue . People will go with what they like and those venues will prosper and the rest will go away .
This is clearly shown with the actions of the NRA and USPSA to branch out from there original direction into 3gun and precision rifle in the last 10 years . The USPSA's attempt at precision rifle , manually operated rifle , is in all intents and purposes all ready dead from lack of participation and as seen in the dwindling numbers of NRA highpower shooters , the attendance at Camp Perry has steadily declined for years now .
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

Graham,

I am glad you posted this. If you do not mind I want to respond with my point of view.

First off I do not see this as a sport. I understand that wording, and it is a valid point of view. But please understand I do not see it as a sport at all.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In light of the 2010 Fall Shooter’s Bash having become a four-day competition I’ve been thinking about the rapid growth of practical long range rifle shooting.

A recent Thread discussed the NRA creating a ‘tactical rifle shooting’ coordinator. My post on that Thread can be found here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...032#Post2124032

Sitting here tonight I have a few more observations, this time regarding recent growth in popularity of the sport:

Shooting organizations like the NRA may seek to define the sport of practical long range rifle shooting. If that happens, as it did twenty years ago with practical pistol shooting, the crucial aspects of the sport will become regulated by manufacturers, politicians, and media - in short, by outsiders. I call them ‘outsiders’ because their intent is to sell things, like shooting instruction, gear and gadgets, and to do this they will need to bend the sport to suit their own agendas and interests.
</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">
The bending of this sport started back in 2000 with Snipers Paradise and Sniper Country when they started to run the internet sites and local matches the retailers joined to a degree and had a way to contact a nomadic like tribe of people AKA the Sniper. It took off from there.

I think very little has changed overall, its just moving at a faster rate. The old hands at the Palma matches and the NRA High Power are seeing the age group getting older and not bringing in the young shooter in a equal rate as the old hands quit the sport. The direction most are moving to is F-Class, 3-gun and Tactical rifle as you are talking about. These older sports are dieing off in my view due to the minority of people shooting in them being ass holes to new shooters. I experienced it at my first F-class / Palma match at Butner and many others have felt it also on this site.

So this is why the NRA is getting in the game. Due to the shift of peoples interest. I feel Snipers Hide has a BIG influence in this shift, as did Snipers Paradise and Sniper Country back 5 or 7 years ago with getting this ball rolling.</span>
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The problem for us is that each step we take down this path diminishes the integrity of the discipline we have created. The reality is that there is no other way but publicity if the goal is to make what we do more accessible to more people. Enter the purists: I think that what concerns them most is that some appreciate the value of a circle kept small. Why? Because to give-up the freedom and autonomy we have now is also to undermine the foundations of what we are doing. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I disagree with you on this point. Very few people shoot the rifles they own, of the people that do go and shoot them, less than a quarter shoot in matches locally, of that quarter, less then 1% have the funds or willingness to travel to any match like a Rifles Only match.

This about this, look at the number of people that own handguns. This now of the number of people in hand gun sports. Its VERY little. Do not assume that the NRA is going to do anything but open up ranges to shoot there style of non-palma / high power “tactical” matches due to wanting to keep the shooting sports alive in some way. </span>
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The freedom to design courses of fire and a lack of match rules are what make what we do different from the other shooting sports. This freedom invites not only those who disagree with the structure and rules of other shooting competitions, but also those who refuse to conform to the ready-to-go formulas for weekend competition on square ranges. I respect the achievements of Benchresters but I, for one, would not drive across the country to shoot the exact same course of fire that I shot last weekend at home.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sir, you offer this idea of a standard rules and such. The only way this would involve anyone is if you or they shoot in the game they offer. I know for a fact, that the NRA would not and will not adjust the juniper swamp tactical matches I run now.</span>
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Do you want to be required to earn the right to compete against the best in the country by taking part in a laborious, points-oriented structured classification and elimination process? Right now, if you want to try your hand against the best practical rifle shooters in the country you are free to do so: Buy a rifle, register for a big match, jump into your car and come down. You may finish last, but there are no artificial restrictions in your way that prevent you from trying. To me, that kind of freedom is part of what is unique about living in the United States (as compared to, for example, what passes for free-living in Europe).</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sir, read my above lines. You must agree to play, if you want to use the new rules that might come down the line. I think you give to much power to these company’s and the NRA.</span>
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In three years I have seen Sniper’s Hide grow from barely twenty-five thousand members to almost fifty-thousand today. In some ways that’s good, and it’s especially good for those who make their living from the disposable income of the community. This increase in popularity is probably due in large part to shows on Discovery and The History Channel which made ‘sniper’ matches and ‘sniping’ part of the pop-culture in a wartime decade. The media now links what we do with the so-called ‘sniper’ rifles that we reportedly use, probably because it makes for better television appeal. I even have it on good authority that these ‘sniper’ shows are some of the top-rated shows on those networks. And more public appeal means more advertising revenue. But the truth is that ‘sniping’, whatever that is, has very little to do with the shooting we do at the matches and nothing to do with the reasons why we compete. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">
You lost me. The same thing you are talking about you are driving to next week. The matches Frank and Jacob put on are some of the best in the world. The ability to go to them is based on the Rifles Only staff letting you come on the property. Frank and Jacob are both businessmen conducting a business that is one of the hardest types of income to collect and harder to earn on a repeatable basis.

You must face that shooting in any rifle match is the only test outside of combat a person can face. This is true with MMA, gun handling and other sports that deal with the quasi self defense aspect. You can train, you can go sit in QRF room, but the only time you can feel presser is doing it in combat, next is to test your self in a unknown situation in a safe manner. That is what you and others are doing wile attending any type of shooting game. </span>
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In the United States it is probably heresy to argue against the intrinsic value of more people making more money faster and easier, but in my mind the fundamental question still won’t go away: Do we not have a responsibility to the future integrity of the sport? I think we do. I have seen dedicated shooters and friends climb inside the media machine only to lose both the spirit of competition and the love of shooting that they once had. Of course they paid-off their house, but in return they don’t seem as happy as they once were, just more popular and more distracted, with more to lose. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Sir, many a person turn a hobby in to a income and hate it after awhile. Its a common situation. Just because you know people that are burned out, thats ok but it should not stop you from moving forward if you want too. Once a fun thing stops being fun you need to move on and do something else. </span>
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The older I get the more difficult it is for me to be satisfied competing for the judgment of others. I participated stridently in the growth of IPSC. But I am now at a point in my own development that I no longer care whether or not I win a shooting match. After all, it’s just a shooting match. Today, if you met me at a public range you would see someone who keeps mostly to himself. I help those who ask me for it, but when I give a friend shooting advice I don’t send him a bill for my time. Because what is really for sale has nothing to do with shooting: it’s the gadgets, the gear, the clothing, the bullshit and the bragging rights - all of which I couldn’t care less about.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">
Sir, I agree with you 100% in the first 3/4's of the above paragraph. But in the end, you go support a group of people that due charge for there time and efforts. I do not understand. If you do not care and think its all BS way go down to Kingsville then and support Frank and Jacob that are charing you for there time, using there props, Jacob's land and burms. Just realize here you go down to TX and support a group of people that do what you do not care about. And thats ok. Just realize what your actions are and your bitch. </span>
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Sniping will exist whether or not there are ‘sniper’ competitions. And snipers will exist regardless of whether someone in authority gives them a certificate, a ‘hog’s tooth’, and a pay-grade which requires them to sit around with nothing to do most of the time. For me, shooting is something I do for myself. I do it when I want to do it and how I want to do it. I’ve been reasonably successful at it. But I’ve also made an ass of myself pretending that I was better at it than someone else. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">I agree and am with you 100% on the above. I feel the same way.</span>
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In my opinion we don’t need an organization to determine who is ‘Top Shot’. We don’t need to spend our spare time indulging in that ever-so-human desire to measure, compare, qualify and quantify and classify and control other people that we see in our daily lives. And we don’t need to organize into otherwise irrelevant groups for the sake of dictating terms to others in the group. After all, no one really cares what someone else wants to stop him from doing anyway. Because whether or not you agree with me, that’s not what this sport is about.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">You are right about we do not need anyone to tell us how to do anything. But it is human nature to gravitate in the direction of order in the eyes of the blind. Its just how its goes. But keep in mind I could develop a new category in shooting sports that the NRA agrees with and after some time it will die off. Why, well a group of people like the NRA will kill of anything. Look at High Power and the people they put up with now. </span>
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Call me an elitist if you wish, but I am in favor of there being real effort required to become involved in the sport of long-range tactical rifle shooting. I go to Shreveport to shoot Terry’s match because it’s Terry and Jim’s match. I go to Texas to shoot Jacob’s match because it’s Jacob’s match. I travel far because that’s the only way I can get there. I don’t care where I place in the official standings because I learn from the people I meet there, most of which are also there to do the same. If I go to the match, and Jacob says to put the barrel on a wire, then I put the barrel on a wire. I don’t care if it’s ‘against the rules’ of organized competition: I either learn something from doing it or I don’t. That’s the standard. It’s the only true standard. And, either way, what I take from it is not up to someone else, it’s up to me. What matters is what the experience of the match means to the shooter, not whether what we do is grist for someone else’s mill.

See you all at Rifles Only in December.</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"> I agree with this last paragraph VERY much. I see you and I have the same view points in what a match offers. I will tell you this, I go to the matches for the same things, but the bottom line is, a match no matter how small or big to me is a training opportunity to make myself a better rifleman.

Thanks for the great post and I look forward to your reply. Have a great week.

John</span>
 
Re: Where Is Our Sport Going?

Ah, this sword...it is double edged.

I personally like where this addiction is now. I like the people that I run into while doing this hobby. I like the variety available in matches. I like the quasi-military focus. I like that manufacturers are taking an interest and supporting us with great prize tables (who doesn't want to go home with something?)

But, if offered more matches of Rifles Only caliber closer to home or more often, I would accept. In order for that to happen though, the numbers of shooters needs to grow. As the numbers grow, so do outside interests.

Perhaps we need to encourage NRA etal to start doing this, that way the masses will be sated, and we can continue what we are doing in ananimity...think that will work? Yeah, I don't either.

I guess I just need a faster internet connection to get into matches...shit, the gear race begins.