I'm planning to start F-class soon and I know reading conditions is important. What Kestrel wind meters are preferred? I have an iPhone with a couple ballistic calculators now. I've been using the local weather stations for info now but it's not always correct or up to date. Do the bluetooth models input data into isnipe or Ballistic FTE directly? Do people share data at most matches? What options are the most important for Fclass shooters?
F T/R Competition Which Kestrel?
- Thread starter pcschwenke
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Re: Which Kestrel?
All the shooters I know use a 4500 NV as a minimum with Ballistic FTE. DA is the preferred environmental input. The blue tooth doesn’t connect to an iPhone or Droid, just a lap top as I understand it.
All the shooters I know use a 4500 NV as a minimum with Ballistic FTE. DA is the preferred environmental input. The blue tooth doesn’t connect to an iPhone or Droid, just a lap top as I understand it.
Re: Which Kestrel?
There was a wave of people who bought windmeters a few years back, and we all had fun taking measurements and comparing the readings.
I have not brought the Kestrel out of my shooting box in a couple of years now. As I drive to the range, I look at the flags along the way (45 mile drive) and I try to see if there is a pattern. When I get to the range, I look at the flags and I make a guess as to how much hold off (adjustment) I will need.
The Kestrel is very nice but it only gives you the wind reading at your position, not down range. The wind at your location is probably not all that important because the bullet is very low to the ground at that point and the wind usually comes in gradients.
I don't see many people using them on the line anymore, but there are some that do. I still bring mine when I go to ranges I have not shot before, which is rare for me.
(This could be a fun thread.)
There was a wave of people who bought windmeters a few years back, and we all had fun taking measurements and comparing the readings.
I have not brought the Kestrel out of my shooting box in a couple of years now. As I drive to the range, I look at the flags along the way (45 mile drive) and I try to see if there is a pattern. When I get to the range, I look at the flags and I make a guess as to how much hold off (adjustment) I will need.
The Kestrel is very nice but it only gives you the wind reading at your position, not down range. The wind at your location is probably not all that important because the bullet is very low to the ground at that point and the wind usually comes in gradients.
I don't see many people using them on the line anymore, but there are some that do. I still bring mine when I go to ranges I have not shot before, which is rare for me.
(This could be a fun thread.)
Re: Which Kestrel?
Ok, here is the truth. For F-Class competition a wind meter is the absolute least important piece of equipment you can buy. If you already have everything else and just want to add a new toy to your kit they can be fun to play with.
The majority of the shooters on the line will be very happy to give information that will help you get on target with your first sighter.
Ok, here is the truth. For F-Class competition a wind meter is the absolute least important piece of equipment you can buy. If you already have everything else and just want to add a new toy to your kit they can be fun to play with.
The majority of the shooters on the line will be very happy to give information that will help you get on target with your first sighter.
Re: Which Kestrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here is the truth. For F-Class competition a wind meter is the absolute least important piece of equipment you can buy. If you already have everything else and just want to add a new toy to your kit they can be fun to play with.
The majority of the shooters on the line will be very happy to give information that will help you get on target with your first sighter. </div></div>
What David said is correct.
While a wind meter is permitted, I don't think you can have a bluetooth device on the firing line.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w03.pdf
3.22 Electronic Devices - Electronic devices such as radios, tape recorders, or any other type of sound
production, or <span style="font-weight: bold">communication systems </span>are prohibited forward of the ready line, including the pits, except those
necessary for range control.
(a) During team matches only; team members may communicate with each other via hard-wired
communications devices. These communication devices must not transmit over a radio frequency, and
must not interfere with safety, range operations, or other competitors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here is the truth. For F-Class competition a wind meter is the absolute least important piece of equipment you can buy. If you already have everything else and just want to add a new toy to your kit they can be fun to play with.
The majority of the shooters on the line will be very happy to give information that will help you get on target with your first sighter. </div></div>
What David said is correct.
While a wind meter is permitted, I don't think you can have a bluetooth device on the firing line.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w03.pdf
3.22 Electronic Devices - Electronic devices such as radios, tape recorders, or any other type of sound
production, or <span style="font-weight: bold">communication systems </span>are prohibited forward of the ready line, including the pits, except those
necessary for range control.
(a) During team matches only; team members may communicate with each other via hard-wired
communications devices. These communication devices must not transmit over a radio frequency, and
must not interfere with safety, range operations, or other competitors.
Re: Which Kestrel?
i agrre with the posts above just a modified f class match last saturday (start at 100 then work out to 1000 yds) at 400 yds the wind would blow one way and at a 1000 it was blowing another. i got to where i would look at the wind flags at 400 then look at the grass on out to 1k lastly i looked at tres bhind the target. use everything out there as a wind indicator the one thing that helped me was my ballistic calc on my phone which had my dope on it for the most part i was off 2 clicks on out for elevation and read the wind.and would only shoot when everything lined up or 1 part settled down didnt take that long to do it i just didnt rush my shots.
larry
i agrre with the posts above just a modified f class match last saturday (start at 100 then work out to 1000 yds) at 400 yds the wind would blow one way and at a 1000 it was blowing another. i got to where i would look at the wind flags at 400 then look at the grass on out to 1k lastly i looked at tres bhind the target. use everything out there as a wind indicator the one thing that helped me was my ballistic calc on my phone which had my dope on it for the most part i was off 2 clicks on out for elevation and read the wind.and would only shoot when everything lined up or 1 part settled down didnt take that long to do it i just didnt rush my shots.
larry
Re: Which Kestrel?
Never been to a match where you don't get sighters, usually unlimited. I have one, almost never use it.
I used it in the beginning to get DA numbers to confirm my chrono data when playing in JBM.
Never been to a match where you don't get sighters, usually unlimited. I have one, almost never use it.
I used it in the beginning to get DA numbers to confirm my chrono data when playing in JBM.
Re: Which Kestrel?
They do work pretty well as a training aid, as mentioned. The full-meal deal (read as: friggin' expensive!) models are probably gross over-kill. I have a Kestrel 4000 that I use about 3 or 4 of the available values - wind speed, temp, relative humidity, and barometric (station) pressure. The latter three mainly to attempt to fine tune my zero a bit depending on local conditions as compared to 'home'. Again, not strictly necessary - most people are reasonably forthcoming with information if you ask politely, and you do get sighters, and if you keep a log book for the various places you shoot at, you'll end up with essentially the same info sooner or later. I like to be able to plug into a ballistic program on the spot - but even that doesn't give the right answer *all* the time.
As for the wind... as mentioned, what the wind is doing at your spot on the firing point may vary considerably compared to whats going on down range, especially when you factor in the range layout, etc. If you shoot on a more 'open' range or one with a lot of head/tail winds it might give you a *little* 'truer' information - maybe. At some point, you will need to figure out what the flags down range are 'worth' - and different ranges can have different lengths of flags and/or different materials. Having a wind meter as a reference can help with that some... but probably not as much as just plain old experience.
Long story made short... I have one, thoroughly enjoy it, would probably get another one if this died or grew legs... but they aren't something you *have* to have. There are wind-charts out there that relate wind speed to flag angles and clock angles that while not 100% correct for every situation will probably get you on paper easy enough.
They do work pretty well as a training aid, as mentioned. The full-meal deal (read as: friggin' expensive!) models are probably gross over-kill. I have a Kestrel 4000 that I use about 3 or 4 of the available values - wind speed, temp, relative humidity, and barometric (station) pressure. The latter three mainly to attempt to fine tune my zero a bit depending on local conditions as compared to 'home'. Again, not strictly necessary - most people are reasonably forthcoming with information if you ask politely, and you do get sighters, and if you keep a log book for the various places you shoot at, you'll end up with essentially the same info sooner or later. I like to be able to plug into a ballistic program on the spot - but even that doesn't give the right answer *all* the time.
As for the wind... as mentioned, what the wind is doing at your spot on the firing point may vary considerably compared to whats going on down range, especially when you factor in the range layout, etc. If you shoot on a more 'open' range or one with a lot of head/tail winds it might give you a *little* 'truer' information - maybe. At some point, you will need to figure out what the flags down range are 'worth' - and different ranges can have different lengths of flags and/or different materials. Having a wind meter as a reference can help with that some... but probably not as much as just plain old experience.
Long story made short... I have one, thoroughly enjoy it, would probably get another one if this died or grew legs... but they aren't something you *have* to have. There are wind-charts out there that relate wind speed to flag angles and clock angles that while not 100% correct for every situation will probably get you on paper easy enough.
Re: Which Kestrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never been to a match where you don't get sighters, usually unlimited. I have one, almost never use it.
I used it in the beginning to get DA numbers to confirm my chrono data when playing in JBM. </div></div>
You need to come down an shoot one of DocBs Hardrock matches. Its shot at 600, 800, 900 and 1K. 5 shots each, must ring steel within your first 5 shots or your DQed. No Flags, No sighters. First time shooters get a spotter to help you. You may have a slight advantage with a Kestrel due to most will not have cell service out there or at best spotty service. But its a great place to learn to read wind without flags or spotters and a good group of folks to learn from.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never been to a match where you don't get sighters, usually unlimited. I have one, almost never use it.
I used it in the beginning to get DA numbers to confirm my chrono data when playing in JBM. </div></div>
You need to come down an shoot one of DocBs Hardrock matches. Its shot at 600, 800, 900 and 1K. 5 shots each, must ring steel within your first 5 shots or your DQed. No Flags, No sighters. First time shooters get a spotter to help you. You may have a slight advantage with a Kestrel due to most will not have cell service out there or at best spotty service. But its a great place to learn to read wind without flags or spotters and a good group of folks to learn from.
Re: Which Kestrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The blue tooth doesn’t connect to an iPhone or Droid, just a lap top as I understand it. </div></div>
My 4500 connects to my Droid Razr phone, as well as to my Motorola ET1 Android tablet. It can be flaky, however; manual data entry is often just as fast.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The blue tooth doesn’t connect to an iPhone or Droid, just a lap top as I understand it. </div></div>
My 4500 connects to my Droid Razr phone, as well as to my Motorola ET1 Android tablet. It can be flaky, however; manual data entry is often just as fast.
Re: Which Kestrel?
Thanks for all the responses. I'm new to F-class but, not new to shooting Rifle or pistol competitions. I've been shooting rifles competitively for 36 years and pistol for 23. I do have all the equipment required but, never studied wind conditions much yet. Most of my rifle competition were 200 yards and under. I know that everyone is very helpful at pistol matches but, I wasn't sure if weather conditions (Wind) were openly discussed at Rifle matches. Since Wind, barometric pressure, and altitude are very important I thought this was taboo. If someone asked me, I would gladly pass on the info. I've been looking at the 4000, 4200, 4300, and 4500. Since the 4500 was $100 more, I didn't know if any of the others were acceptable. It would be cheapest if I learned to read flags but, I do like gadgets! Kestrel seem to be the standard for WM.
Paul
Thanks for all the responses. I'm new to F-class but, not new to shooting Rifle or pistol competitions. I've been shooting rifles competitively for 36 years and pistol for 23. I do have all the equipment required but, never studied wind conditions much yet. Most of my rifle competition were 200 yards and under. I know that everyone is very helpful at pistol matches but, I wasn't sure if weather conditions (Wind) were openly discussed at Rifle matches. Since Wind, barometric pressure, and altitude are very important I thought this was taboo. If someone asked me, I would gladly pass on the info. I've been looking at the 4000, 4200, 4300, and 4500. Since the 4500 was $100 more, I didn't know if any of the others were acceptable. It would be cheapest if I learned to read flags but, I do like gadgets! Kestrel seem to be the standard for WM.
Paul
Re: Which Kestrel?
Just FYI, it has been my experience that when you ask or look for wind data on the line, you will come away with MOA hold offs or windage corrections. What I mean by that is people will tell you something like "I put in 1.5 MOA on the gun," or "I was holding 2 MOA," or "I was holding in the 8-ring."
I do not remember anywone ever saying "I was compensating for a 12MPH three quarter wind," or something similar.
Now, with that in mind, you need to know what bullet that person is using, especially if you are shooting F-T/R and the bozo who's giving you his information is an F-opener shooting the fancy 7mm bullets with an infinite BC; it may well be that his 1.5 MOA is more like 2.5 or 3 for a 180gr .308 bullet.
Just FYI, it has been my experience that when you ask or look for wind data on the line, you will come away with MOA hold offs or windage corrections. What I mean by that is people will tell you something like "I put in 1.5 MOA on the gun," or "I was holding 2 MOA," or "I was holding in the 8-ring."
I do not remember anywone ever saying "I was compensating for a 12MPH three quarter wind," or something similar.
Now, with that in mind, you need to know what bullet that person is using, especially if you are shooting F-T/R and the bozo who's giving you his information is an F-opener shooting the fancy 7mm bullets with an infinite BC; it may well be that his 1.5 MOA is more like 2.5 or 3 for a 180gr .308 bullet.
Re: Which Kestrel?
For unknown distance tactical type shooting, a wind meter may be an essential piece of gear, but it still only gives the conditions at the shooter's location.
When Denys gets his Kestrel out its usually pretty bad wind and I just look over his shoulder. Therefore, I DON'T NEED ONE !!!
Paul
For unknown distance tactical type shooting, a wind meter may be an essential piece of gear, but it still only gives the conditions at the shooter's location.
When Denys gets his Kestrel out its usually pretty bad wind and I just look over his shoulder. Therefore, I DON'T NEED ONE !!!
Paul
Re: Which Kestrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pcschwenke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Kestrel seem to be the standard for WM.
Paul </div></div>
For square range shooting there are probably some better and cheaper sources for wind meters. A Kestrel has a directional wind vane to determine wind speed, meaning you have to point the Kestrel at the wind to get a good reading. There are some other wind only meters that have a rotor mounted on top that will give an accurate reading no matter the orientation, they don''t give all the other atmospheric data, but at 1/4 the price may be what you are looking for.
A note on wind flags that I've commented on before, most of the charts (all the ones I've seen) for wind flags and their response to different wind speeds are based on the old cotton flags. Nylon flags respond much more to less wind. The 45 degree droop that the books show as 5MPH is more like 3 and the up and flying that is shown as about 12 in the books is really closer to 7. That my Kestrel was useful in figuring out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pcschwenke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Kestrel seem to be the standard for WM.
Paul </div></div>
For square range shooting there are probably some better and cheaper sources for wind meters. A Kestrel has a directional wind vane to determine wind speed, meaning you have to point the Kestrel at the wind to get a good reading. There are some other wind only meters that have a rotor mounted on top that will give an accurate reading no matter the orientation, they don''t give all the other atmospheric data, but at 1/4 the price may be what you are looking for.
A note on wind flags that I've commented on before, most of the charts (all the ones I've seen) for wind flags and their response to different wind speeds are based on the old cotton flags. Nylon flags respond much more to less wind. The 45 degree droop that the books show as 5MPH is more like 3 and the up and flying that is shown as about 12 in the books is really closer to 7. That my Kestrel was useful in figuring out.
Re: Which Kestrel?
Don't discount wind meters. I agree with others 100% that what the wind does at the firing line may be (and usually is) different as night and day as to what its doing down range.
But where they do come in handy is to use them to compare the meter to other wind indicators.
Especally on a new range, if possible before the match look at other indicators, brush, trees, grass, etc and estimate the wind, then take you meter and confirm or adjust.
I don't shoot much F-Class but have shot tons of High Power Match and 1000 yard matches.
I like to get to a range early, and walk from the firing line to the pits, observing indicators and conpairing what I see to the meter at several different points between the pits and the line.
This comes in handy on new ranges.
But as others said, once the shooting starts my Kestel stays in the shooting stool.
I'm not a fan of computers, cell phones, and other fancy gadgets during a match. They might be fun or even helpful during a practice session, but during a match, no thanks.
I think a better stragaty is to "shoot fast", use you spotting scope to pick up conditions while the tartet is in the pits, make adjustments if needed (or if using a scope, determine what hold over you'll need. When the target starts to wiggle, close the bolt and fire when the target hits the top of the frame.
You should take more then three seconds from the time the target is up and the round leaves the barrel.
Nothing drives a coach nuts like a shooter who takes forever to get the shot off. I'd give a correction and watch the wind change three or four times before the shooter fires. Makes you want to take a safety paddle and beat on him for a while.
Pit crews like fast shooters also, which means you'll get better pit service.
Don't discount wind meters. I agree with others 100% that what the wind does at the firing line may be (and usually is) different as night and day as to what its doing down range.
But where they do come in handy is to use them to compare the meter to other wind indicators.
Especally on a new range, if possible before the match look at other indicators, brush, trees, grass, etc and estimate the wind, then take you meter and confirm or adjust.
I don't shoot much F-Class but have shot tons of High Power Match and 1000 yard matches.
I like to get to a range early, and walk from the firing line to the pits, observing indicators and conpairing what I see to the meter at several different points between the pits and the line.
This comes in handy on new ranges.
But as others said, once the shooting starts my Kestel stays in the shooting stool.
I'm not a fan of computers, cell phones, and other fancy gadgets during a match. They might be fun or even helpful during a practice session, but during a match, no thanks.
I think a better stragaty is to "shoot fast", use you spotting scope to pick up conditions while the tartet is in the pits, make adjustments if needed (or if using a scope, determine what hold over you'll need. When the target starts to wiggle, close the bolt and fire when the target hits the top of the frame.
You should take more then three seconds from the time the target is up and the round leaves the barrel.
Nothing drives a coach nuts like a shooter who takes forever to get the shot off. I'd give a correction and watch the wind change three or four times before the shooter fires. Makes you want to take a safety paddle and beat on him for a while.
Pit crews like fast shooters also, which means you'll get better pit service.
Re: Which Kestrel?
XTR is correct. This is why I translate the flag action directly to MOA and bypass the conversion to MPH. "Hmm, that flags looks like 2 MOA to me."
I can and do monitor the flags, mirage, etc, all the time. It's constant feedback. Now the only thing I have to do is figure out why flags lie so much, especially when they all indicate different wind direction and velocity.
XTR is correct. This is why I translate the flag action directly to MOA and bypass the conversion to MPH. "Hmm, that flags looks like 2 MOA to me."
I can and do monitor the flags, mirage, etc, all the time. It's constant feedback. Now the only thing I have to do is figure out why flags lie so much, especially when they all indicate different wind direction and velocity.
Re: Which Kestrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR is correct. This is why I translate the flag action directly to MOA and bypass the conversion to MPH. "Hmm, that flags looks like 2 MOA to me."
I can and do monitor the flags, mirage, etc, all the time. It's constant feedback. Now the only thing I have to do is figure out why flags lie so much, especially when they all indicate different wind direction and velocity. </div></div>
The reason I figured the flags out was that I've run a lot of numbers in JBM, and I keep a dope charts from them for the rounds I shoot. I would look at what the flags are supposed to be saying (according to the old illustrations) and then look at my dope and I was using way less than I should have been, and JBM has always been on as long as I don't give it garbage data. One day I was having a discussion with one of the "old timer" High power shooters and he pointed out that the illustrations in the range books were based on the old flags, then it all suddenly made sense.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR is correct. This is why I translate the flag action directly to MOA and bypass the conversion to MPH. "Hmm, that flags looks like 2 MOA to me."
I can and do monitor the flags, mirage, etc, all the time. It's constant feedback. Now the only thing I have to do is figure out why flags lie so much, especially when they all indicate different wind direction and velocity. </div></div>
The reason I figured the flags out was that I've run a lot of numbers in JBM, and I keep a dope charts from them for the rounds I shoot. I would look at what the flags are supposed to be saying (according to the old illustrations) and then look at my dope and I was using way less than I should have been, and JBM has always been on as long as I don't give it garbage data. One day I was having a discussion with one of the "old timer" High power shooters and he pointed out that the illustrations in the range books were based on the old flags, then it all suddenly made sense.
Re: Which Kestrel?
Yeah, I actually remember the old cotton flags that were in use when I was shooting fullbore in the early 80s. Heavy they were and if they got wet; yuck.
The bullets were slower back then and the wind was stronger also.
(And I did walk to school uphill both ways in waist-high snow before that.)
Yeah, I actually remember the old cotton flags that were in use when I was shooting fullbore in the early 80s. Heavy they were and if they got wet; yuck.
The bullets were slower back then and the wind was stronger also.
(And I did walk to school uphill both ways in waist-high snow before that.)
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