If you have a SBR or OAW and so on who can ask for papers? I have had my toys out to many ranges and shows and never been asked not even once.Has anyone ever been pulled over or had a run in with LEO asking?
Suppressors Who can ask for papers?
- Thread starter jheat308
- Start date
Re: Who can ask for papers?
ATF Agent.
ATF Agent.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Any LEO.
But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.
I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items.
Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!
Weld up parts kits or hacksaw off your gun barrel like a moron... you deserve what you get. And that does not include my sympathy or understanding. Ownership of cool C3/DD items is not hard or expensive. Correctly-filled-out paperwork almost guarantees approval. The $200 fee is a pittance compared to the price of C3 items these days.
Do the paperwork... get approved. Enjoy the best toys and welcome to the club.
Just my $0.02.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Any LEO.
But whether or not the individual officer knows enough to ask/understand the Class 3/DD minutae (ie. familiar with details of BATFE regs.) is hit or miss.
I know the details, believe me. Two other guys in my dept know. Count on it. But I believe we are in a small minority in the local/state LE community.
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. I have numerous legal and registered Class III and DD items myself -- all the way up to a 25mm semi-automatic Hotchkiss anti-tank gun (for when you are done messing around with mere .50 BMG). I am asking because I want to ensure that my fellow C3/DD enthusiasts are acting legally and not giving those of us who appreciate the genre (and are willing to go through the approvals for ownership) a black eye with illegal items.
Enjoy, enjoy legally and consider me to be your best friend and a solid supporter of your lawful Class 3 R2KBA!
Weld up parts kits or hacksaw off your gun barrel like a moron... you deserve what you get. And that does not include my sympathy or understanding. Ownership of cool C3/DD items is not hard or expensive. Correctly-filled-out paperwork almost guarantees approval. The $200 fee is a pittance compared to the price of C3 items these days.
Do the paperwork... get approved. Enjoy the best toys and welcome to the club.
Just my $0.02.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike
Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike </div></div>
Unless you would like to wear a nice set of stainless steel bracelets i'd show em to a LEO if asked, that form is basically your get out of jail free card.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike </div></div>
Unless you would like to wear a nice set of stainless steel bracelets i'd show em to a LEO if asked, that form is basically your get out of jail free card.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
What will they arrest me for?
What will they arrest me for?
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onechance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO that has jurisdiction, where the weapon is being used or located. Usually, most officers don't ask, mainly due to not knowing the law. </div></div>
Is there any documentation for this? I ask because my understanding was that your "papers" are technically tax forms. My local LEO doesn't, as far as I know, have any jurisdiction over my federal taxes. They can't demand last years tax returns without some sort of court order, so why would they be able to demand proof that I paid any other federal tax?
On this page
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#owner-evidence
they say
"This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers."
It suggests that other LEO may not have the authority to ask for them.
On the other hand, they certainly have qualified immunity if they improperly arrest you for refusing to show papers. So probably best to just show it and go on your way.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onechance</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO that has jurisdiction, where the weapon is being used or located. Usually, most officers don't ask, mainly due to not knowing the law. </div></div>
Is there any documentation for this? I ask because my understanding was that your "papers" are technically tax forms. My local LEO doesn't, as far as I know, have any jurisdiction over my federal taxes. They can't demand last years tax returns without some sort of court order, so why would they be able to demand proof that I paid any other federal tax?
On this page
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#owner-evidence
they say
"This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers."
It suggests that other LEO may not have the authority to ask for them.
On the other hand, they certainly have qualified immunity if they improperly arrest you for refusing to show papers. So probably best to just show it and go on your way.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RS303</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RS303</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
windermike said:
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Jheat308: here in TX it is a state crime to own anything NFA, it is a defense to prosecution to have the item properly federally registered. Therefore, HERE IN TX law enforcement has the jurisdiction to ask for your papers to see if you are breaking state law by having an unregistered NFA item. So if any police officer here asks for your papers, show them, period.
Other states may have similar laws which would entitle local law enforcement to ask.
Jheat308: here in TX it is a state crime to own anything NFA, it is a defense to prosecution to have the item properly federally registered. Therefore, HERE IN TX law enforcement has the jurisdiction to ask for your papers to see if you are breaking state law by having an unregistered NFA item. So if any police officer here asks for your papers, show them, period.
Other states may have similar laws which would entitle local law enforcement to ask.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jheat308: here in TX it is a state crime to own anything NFA, it is a defense to prosecution to have the item properly federally registered. Therefore, HERE IN TX law enforcement has the jurisdiction to ask for your papers to see if you are breaking state law by having an unregistered NFA item. So if any police officer here asks for your papers, show them, period.
Other states may have similar laws which would entitle local law enforcement to ask. </div></div>
+1
refuse to show some paper work... there is a good chance you'll also lose your NFA toy you spent some serious $$$$ on... I carry my papers all the time, and I'm more than willing and happy to show it off that it's "my" NFA toy
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jheat308: here in TX it is a state crime to own anything NFA, it is a defense to prosecution to have the item properly federally registered. Therefore, HERE IN TX law enforcement has the jurisdiction to ask for your papers to see if you are breaking state law by having an unregistered NFA item. So if any police officer here asks for your papers, show them, period.
Other states may have similar laws which would entitle local law enforcement to ask. </div></div>
+1
refuse to show some paper work... there is a good chance you'll also lose your NFA toy you spent some serious $$$$ on... I carry my papers all the time, and I'm more than willing and happy to show it off that it's "my" NFA toy
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Ive seen some people with what I feel would have been unregistered SBRs, SBSs, and AOWs...I didnt ask and I didnt care...There not hurting anyone so why ruin their life for a dumb ass rule that really doesnt change anything...Me personally, I roll legal but dang its such a stupid law... ALSO LEO needs to learn how to measure barrel length if they want to be dicks...Heard a few around here measure the length from outside the gun on a 16in barrel creating a lot of problems for regular law abiding people. Took hours to finally get off the side of the highway and ruined an entire day of hunting because of the officer not knowing the law. You have to include the chamber if anyone is listening. Ive been told to the reason some barrels are a little longer than 16 is to not only be safe but make it measure 16 from receiver face to muzzle to further minimize people making a fool of the selves.
Ive seen some people with what I feel would have been unregistered SBRs, SBSs, and AOWs...I didnt ask and I didnt care...There not hurting anyone so why ruin their life for a dumb ass rule that really doesnt change anything...Me personally, I roll legal but dang its such a stupid law... ALSO LEO needs to learn how to measure barrel length if they want to be dicks...Heard a few around here measure the length from outside the gun on a 16in barrel creating a lot of problems for regular law abiding people. Took hours to finally get off the side of the highway and ruined an entire day of hunting because of the officer not knowing the law. You have to include the chamber if anyone is listening. Ive been told to the reason some barrels are a little longer than 16 is to not only be safe but make it measure 16 from receiver face to muzzle to further minimize people making a fool of the selves.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861
That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork. And our local BATF agents, who I know on a first-name basis, are 20 minutes away if a subject refuses to show paperwork. No harrassment suit. No wrongful detainment. Cut and dried. I don't even have to do much paperwork, because BATF has no sense of humor that they are aware of. And they'll happily take the whole case off my hands and federal court is no fun! Other states have different flavors of this... but 'online forum lawschool advice' aside, local LE have no jurisdictional issues when it comes to asking for Class 3, DD, Form 1, etc. firearms paperwork.
What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.
Windermike... your parts kit on Form 1, as long as it complies with BATF regs, glad you have it. Enjoy it. Do I want to take it? Nope. Not if it's legal! Would I ask for your papers and be justified in asking? You bet. And after verifying that it's legal... I'd probably admire your build quality and compliment an interesting gun and we'd have a great time on the range talking C3 and FA and DD. That's what fellow-enthusiasts do.
If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.
That said... We're On The Same Damn Side!!!!
Folks... those in LE who know the Class 3/DD/SBR/Form 1 rules inside out and who respect, enjoy and participate in that community are not your enemies!
In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Finally, we are committed to defend you to the hilt when antis think that machine guns/silencers/short barrels, etc. are for "criminals and crazies." And those antis usually far outnumber us supporters!
So when we go out of our way to keep the legal owners happy and safe... and go to the trouble to know our jobs and the details of the law well enough to keep the illegal builders/buyers/traders from ruining the fun for all of us... one would think that would be considered laudable. It should not become a reason to accuse us of all being a bunch of jack-booted thugs trying to confiscate firearms.
Looking for nothing more here than keeping a great aspect of the firearms hobby (and one that I love) within the bounds of the law, so Class 3/DD/SBR/etc. stays fun and legal and does not ultimately get banned for all of us.
Hostile attitudes towards your Allies... that doesn't do any of us any good!
Cheers,
Sirhr
To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861
That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork. And our local BATF agents, who I know on a first-name basis, are 20 minutes away if a subject refuses to show paperwork. No harrassment suit. No wrongful detainment. Cut and dried. I don't even have to do much paperwork, because BATF has no sense of humor that they are aware of. And they'll happily take the whole case off my hands and federal court is no fun! Other states have different flavors of this... but 'online forum lawschool advice' aside, local LE have no jurisdictional issues when it comes to asking for Class 3, DD, Form 1, etc. firearms paperwork.
What I find interesting is windermike et al's hostile reaction to my post... when I tried to make it clear that I am a huge fan and supporter of legal C3 and DD ownership. While at the same time being committed to help prevent illegal ownership of the same items.
Windermike... your parts kit on Form 1, as long as it complies with BATF regs, glad you have it. Enjoy it. Do I want to take it? Nope. Not if it's legal! Would I ask for your papers and be justified in asking? You bet. And after verifying that it's legal... I'd probably admire your build quality and compliment an interesting gun and we'd have a great time on the range talking C3 and FA and DD. That's what fellow-enthusiasts do.
If you wanted to tell me to do something anatomically impossible and refuse to show paperwork because you are trying to prove some point or automatically think I am an enemy... things would not be so genial. Because you would go from fellow-enthusiast to suspect/perp/potential felon in a microsecond.
That said... We're On The Same Damn Side!!!!
Folks... those in LE who know the Class 3/DD/SBR/Form 1 rules inside out and who respect, enjoy and participate in that community are not your enemies!
In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Finally, we are committed to defend you to the hilt when antis think that machine guns/silencers/short barrels, etc. are for "criminals and crazies." And those antis usually far outnumber us supporters!
So when we go out of our way to keep the legal owners happy and safe... and go to the trouble to know our jobs and the details of the law well enough to keep the illegal builders/buyers/traders from ruining the fun for all of us... one would think that would be considered laudable. It should not become a reason to accuse us of all being a bunch of jack-booted thugs trying to confiscate firearms.
Looking for nothing more here than keeping a great aspect of the firearms hobby (and one that I love) within the bounds of the law, so Class 3/DD/SBR/etc. stays fun and legal and does not ultimately get banned for all of us.
Hostile attitudes towards your Allies... that doesn't do any of us any good!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Re: Who can ask for papers?
So in Texas if an LEO asks me for my papers and I say nope he will arrest me? Can you please give proof of state law that says this? Im not trying to get away with anything I have many class 3 items with the neg bank account to prove it. I just want to see if this dog will hunt so to speak.
So in Texas if an LEO asks me for my papers and I say nope he will arrest me? Can you please give proof of state law that says this? Im not trying to get away with anything I have many class 3 items with the neg bank account to prove it. I just want to see if this dog will hunt so to speak.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
I'm not a cop, so I can't say what one would do here in TX. Do I believe you will be arrested for failure or refusal to show papers to LEO? You bet! As they say, you can beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
Texas Penal Code 46.05 - Prohibited Weapons
I'm not a cop, so I can't say what one would do here in TX. Do I believe you will be arrested for failure or refusal to show papers to LEO? You bet! As they say, you can beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
Texas Penal Code 46.05 - Prohibited Weapons
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Guess we just have to hope there is not a continual stream of LEOs coming to the range the day we go out, otherwise we will spend more time going over our proper papers with the fellow enthusiasts that shooting our properly papered weapons.
Guess we just have to hope there is not a continual stream of LEOs coming to the range the day we go out, otherwise we will spend more time going over our proper papers with the fellow enthusiasts that shooting our properly papered weapons.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Sirhr </div></div>
My items are on a trust, my "chief" thinks they are not legal.
While I'm sure you are a stand up guy and know your stuff, not all LEO are on the same page when it comes to our toys.
Those are the reasons some guys don't liked to be asked.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In fact, you should probably be wishing that there were a lot more of us! Because we are the ones who want to see your paperwork signed-off by our chiefs. We want to admire your neat stuff on the range. We know how to measure barrels, the definition of an open bolt -- in short, the details of what is ok and what is not, so we're not the ones who get you into trouble through ignorance of the minutae of firearms. Sirhr </div></div>
My items are on a trust, my "chief" thinks they are not legal.
While I'm sure you are a stand up guy and know your stuff, not all LEO are on the same page when it comes to our toys.
Those are the reasons some guys don't liked to be asked.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story.
If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
i have asked game wardens about if they will now check for copies of form four, whilst hunting now in Texas......they said they would if they suspect an illegal suppressor.....so,,,,now one must possess a valid hunting license and a copy of the of the tax stamp/approved form four.....easy enough
i have asked game wardens about if they will now check for copies of form four, whilst hunting now in Texas......they said they would if they suspect an illegal suppressor.....so,,,,now one must possess a valid hunting license and a copy of the of the tax stamp/approved form four.....easy enough
Re: Who can ask for papers?
When an indian asks to see your fishing license do you tell him to go fly a kite?
When a farmer asks to see your deer tag do you tell him to pack sand?
When a waitress asks to see your drivers license do you tell her to kiss your ass?
I would imagine any mature adult would be as transparent with their NFA firearm paperwork.
When an indian asks to see your fishing license do you tell him to go fly a kite?
When a farmer asks to see your deer tag do you tell him to pack sand?
When a waitress asks to see your drivers license do you tell her to kiss your ass?
I would imagine any mature adult would be as transparent with their NFA firearm paperwork.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Take your forms to kinkos.
Get them copied and shrunk so they will fit in one of those plastic picture holders cheap wallets come with.
I like to get them laminated too.
The goal is smaller than a baseball card.
And kinkos has printers and scanners that can reproduce fine detail at those sizes.
Put micro form copies into plastic picture holder thingie.
Now you have a hard to read flip book to hand anyone who asks.
When the LEO demands your class 3 license or whatever nonsense, just toss him your flip book and sit back and enjoy the show.
Yes I have personally done this in many states on numerous occasions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...
Take your forms to kinkos.
Get them copied and shrunk so they will fit in one of those plastic picture holders cheap wallets come with.
I like to get them laminated too.
The goal is smaller than a baseball card.
And kinkos has printers and scanners that can reproduce fine detail at those sizes.
Put micro form copies into plastic picture holder thingie.
Now you have a hard to read flip book to hand anyone who asks.
When the LEO demands your class 3 license or whatever nonsense, just toss him your flip book and sit back and enjoy the show.
Yes I have personally done this in many states on numerous occasions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861
That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork.
</div></div>
What? What kind of end run around my constitutional rights is that?
So by that rational, driving without or on a suspended license is a crime......therefore you have PC to pull over anyone at anytime just to verify they are driving the car legally......despite having no reason to believe they aren't ?
If in your state, my being in possession of an NFA item in and of itself is not illegal (which would be unconstitutional even if it were) then where do you get off assuming I'm a criminal just by being in possession of it? If you have no other cause to believe I am in illegal possession of that item than the mere fact that I am in possession of it.....that's no effective PC.
And no.....if that's your attitude, we are not on the same side, you are not acting in the interest and safety of society.........you are not on our team.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To expand on Rhydaddy and RS303's comments...
Under our state statutes, anyone who is in possession of a deadly weapon (firearm, among other things) while in commission of a felony is in violation of state laws. Unlawful possession of an SBR, Class III, etc. is a federal felony under 18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861
That is my PC when asking for BATF paperwork.
</div></div>
What? What kind of end run around my constitutional rights is that?
So by that rational, driving without or on a suspended license is a crime......therefore you have PC to pull over anyone at anytime just to verify they are driving the car legally......despite having no reason to believe they aren't ?
If in your state, my being in possession of an NFA item in and of itself is not illegal (which would be unconstitutional even if it were) then where do you get off assuming I'm a criminal just by being in possession of it? If you have no other cause to believe I am in illegal possession of that item than the mere fact that I am in possession of it.....that's no effective PC.
And no.....if that's your attitude, we are not on the same side, you are not acting in the interest and safety of society.........you are not on our team.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use Google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use Google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Well said Lofty.
Well said Lofty.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
I scanned a copy of mine and it's always on my iPhone, but always have a paper copy in hand ready to present if asked.
I've never been asked, with my own suppresor, my form 1 SBR or department SBR.
I've never asked for paperwork at the range either. If you appear legit, i'm gonna leave you alone. Typically people, including other LEO's that arent educated about NFA say "cool, how much does it cost, have fun". I'm not butting in on your range time unless you are being unsafe.
God bless Texas and thank you TPWD!
I scanned a copy of mine and it's always on my iPhone, but always have a paper copy in hand ready to present if asked.
I've never been asked, with my own suppresor, my form 1 SBR or department SBR.
I've never asked for paperwork at the range either. If you appear legit, i'm gonna leave you alone. Typically people, including other LEO's that arent educated about NFA say "cool, how much does it cost, have fun". I'm not butting in on your range time unless you are being unsafe.
God bless Texas and thank you TPWD!
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Good thread! I have never been asked with any of my suppressor or my SBR, but I imagine it is only a matter of time now that I have my m16a1. With a braked 10.5" barrel making noise on full auto, it is a heck of an attention getter!
Good thread! I have never been asked with any of my suppressor or my SBR, but I imagine it is only a matter of time now that I have my m16a1. With a braked 10.5" barrel making noise on full auto, it is a heck of an attention getter!
Re: Who can ask for papers?
If I am at a public range with nfa items and someone ask to see my forms, it is an insult to my intelligence. I have no problem talking with any LEO about my stuff. If the first thing that comes out of a LEOs mouth is let me see your papers. We have a problem. I don't have a problem with LEO. I do however have a problem with them oversteping. Respect is a two way street. You show it to me and I will show it to you.
When I am at a public range, I enjoytalking about my NFA stuff. I don't mind sharing my stuff with anyone at the range LEO or otherwise. People enjoy shooting an sbr or a suppressor for the first time. I have never had anyone in LE ask for my papers.
If I am at a public range with nfa items and someone ask to see my forms, it is an insult to my intelligence. I have no problem talking with any LEO about my stuff. If the first thing that comes out of a LEOs mouth is let me see your papers. We have a problem. I don't have a problem with LEO. I do however have a problem with them oversteping. Respect is a two way street. You show it to me and I will show it to you.
When I am at a public range, I enjoytalking about my NFA stuff. I don't mind sharing my stuff with anyone at the range LEO or otherwise. People enjoy shooting an sbr or a suppressor for the first time. I have never had anyone in LE ask for my papers.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
</div></div>
No where that I read in there says you have to provide any paperwork to a Leo on the scene. I can however see how an over zealous state attorney counstrues that as having no choice but to present your papers to the fuhrer upon demand.
That's a supreme court case if I ever heard one. You are considered to be in violation of the law until you can prove your aren't? In Texas of all places?
That's some serious hardcore fucking bullshit. So the rule of law that I am innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist in this country anymore? So a law enforcement officer can violate my rights to make me prove I'm not guilty.
Fuck that.
Just to be clear.....I know law enforcement.
I grew up in a law enforcement family. My father has been a cop since I was 7 years old and still is today. He's a chief in a city in Dade county Florida. My uncle is a sheriff, my sister in law in a city cop and I was a city cop for over a decade in one of the worst crime infested shit holes in Florida. I did narcotics and long term money laundering for around 9 of the years I was there.
I know the mentality of law enforcement.
It's so funny to hear cops say, "but we are doing this for your protection.....it's our job to protect the public". Then in the very same breath scream, " its not our job to protect everyone" when someone sues because they felt the cops didn't do enough to protect them.
LOL.....when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range?
Law enforcement officers take an oath to defend the constitution....to uphold it and most importantly abide by it.
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining by wiping your ass with the constitution while you violate my rights........and saying we're on the same side.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
</div></div>
No where that I read in there says you have to provide any paperwork to a Leo on the scene. I can however see how an over zealous state attorney counstrues that as having no choice but to present your papers to the fuhrer upon demand.
That's a supreme court case if I ever heard one. You are considered to be in violation of the law until you can prove your aren't? In Texas of all places?
That's some serious hardcore fucking bullshit. So the rule of law that I am innocent until proven guilty doesn't exist in this country anymore? So a law enforcement officer can violate my rights to make me prove I'm not guilty.
Fuck that.
Just to be clear.....I know law enforcement.
I grew up in a law enforcement family. My father has been a cop since I was 7 years old and still is today. He's a chief in a city in Dade county Florida. My uncle is a sheriff, my sister in law in a city cop and I was a city cop for over a decade in one of the worst crime infested shit holes in Florida. I did narcotics and long term money laundering for around 9 of the years I was there.
I know the mentality of law enforcement.
It's so funny to hear cops say, "but we are doing this for your protection.....it's our job to protect the public". Then in the very same breath scream, " its not our job to protect everyone" when someone sues because they felt the cops didn't do enough to protect them.
LOL.....when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range?
Law enforcement officers take an oath to defend the constitution....to uphold it and most importantly abide by it.
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining by wiping your ass with the constitution while you violate my rights........and saying we're on the same side.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Lofty, I'm not saying you're wrong in feeling the way you do, and I understand your argument. I just posted the law. I'm not a cop and don't agree with the law. I do however understand that as long as the law exists here that I am compelled to prove that my NFA items are federally registered if local law enforcement asks me to. Being that it's a felony, I would rather not have a felony arrest on my record whether or not it ends in a dismissal.
I read the law to say that if you cannot/will not prove your item (this would apply to any item that is otherwise prohibited under such a law, IE marijuana, an NFA weapon, unpasteurized cheese that is aged for less than 6 months, etc.) is lawfully owned then a police officer would be within reason in the eyes of the law and furthermore has a duty to arrest you for posessing a prohibited item. Just sayin...
Lofty, I'm not saying you're wrong in feeling the way you do, and I understand your argument. I just posted the law. I'm not a cop and don't agree with the law. I do however understand that as long as the law exists here that I am compelled to prove that my NFA items are federally registered if local law enforcement asks me to. Being that it's a felony, I would rather not have a felony arrest on my record whether or not it ends in a dismissal.
I read the law to say that if you cannot/will not prove your item (this would apply to any item that is otherwise prohibited under such a law, IE marijuana, an NFA weapon, unpasteurized cheese that is aged for less than 6 months, etc.) is lawfully owned then a police officer would be within reason in the eyes of the law and furthermore has a duty to arrest you for posessing a prohibited item. Just sayin...
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Oh, I'm not saying anything other than the law is bullshit. Not accusing you of anything.
Sorry for not being clear about that.
That being said, marijuana in Texas is never legal. It's existence in your possession is prima facia evidence that you are breaking the law.....which is bullshit in and of itself, but I digress. In complete violation of the constitution, the law has decided that the very plant itself is illegal, that there is no way to legally own it.
Owning an SBR or a silencer is legal as long as I have the appropriate stamp and have been approved by BATFE. How anyone allowed a state to pass a law that says they can assume you guilty until proven innocent is beyond me..
Oh, I'm not saying anything other than the law is bullshit. Not accusing you of anything.
Sorry for not being clear about that.
That being said, marijuana in Texas is never legal. It's existence in your possession is prima facia evidence that you are breaking the law.....which is bullshit in and of itself, but I digress. In complete violation of the constitution, the law has decided that the very plant itself is illegal, that there is no way to legally own it.
Owning an SBR or a silencer is legal as long as I have the appropriate stamp and have been approved by BATFE. How anyone allowed a state to pass a law that says they can assume you guilty until proven innocent is beyond me..
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
Just sayin......
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
</div></div>
Texas just made hunting non game animals with suppressors legal. So the possession of suppressors is still illegal but hunting with them is legal?
All these rules must make your job difficult. I show mine when asked only because some dumb cop will take it if I try to explain the rules. Baffle them with bullshit seems to keep them off my back.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
</div></div>
I posted the statute info for Texas last night, but not the text. Here it is for anyone who doesn't know how to use google. I agree with you about erosion of rights.
Just sayin......
§ 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a)<span style="color: #CC0000"> A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures,
transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer; </span>
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official
duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law
enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
<span style="color: #CC0000">(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the
National Firearms Act, as amended</span>.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a switchblade
knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an
antique or curio; or
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing
ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition
available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in
Subsection (b).
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in
which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for
the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a
security officer and has received training on the use of the
chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Commission on Law Enforcement
Officer Standards and Education; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this
subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of
Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a
commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002,
Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered
under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.
</div></div>
Texas just made hunting non game animals with suppressors legal. So the possession of suppressors is still illegal but hunting with them is legal?
All these rules must make your job difficult. I show mine when asked only because some dumb cop will take it if I try to explain the rules. Baffle them with bullshit seems to keep them off my back.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
+1
Be a Dick, go to Jail.. You may beat the charge, but you WONT beat the ride LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RS303</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike </div></div>
Unless you would like to wear a nice set of stainless steel bracelets i'd show em to a LEO if asked, that form is basically your get out of jail free card. </div></div>
+1
Be a Dick, go to Jail.. You may beat the charge, but you WONT beat the ride LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RS303</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sirhr
I have an sbr I built from a parts kit. Are you coming to get it. By the way it is on a form 1. If you have no reason to ask for papers why would you? Or are you just being a dick. Do you go around asking people for other tax documents?
OP
Anyone can ask you for papers. That does not mean you have to show them.
Mike </div></div>
Unless you would like to wear a nice set of stainless steel bracelets i'd show em to a LEO if asked, that form is basically your get out of jail free card. </div></div>
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Being in possession of a SBR, Suppressor or anyother Class III Item.. You want to be a Dick to the local LEO's then your ass is going to jail! How do LEO's know your little SBR is legal?
Show the damn paper and go have fun!
Calling my bluff? Come to Fl and they will show you what happens when you dont produce proper paper work. Ive seen it happen. Not a pretty site
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will they arrest me for? </div></div>
Being in possession of a SBR, Suppressor or anyother Class III Item.. You want to be a Dick to the local LEO's then your ass is going to jail! How do LEO's know your little SBR is legal?
Show the damn paper and go have fun!
Calling my bluff? Come to Fl and they will show you what happens when you dont produce proper paper work. Ive seen it happen. Not a pretty site
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will they arrest me for? </div></div>
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.
*snip*
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. *snip*
Just my $0.02.
Cheers,
Sirhr
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being in possession of a SBR, Suppressor or anyother Class III Item.. You want to be a Dick to the local LEO's then your ass is going to jail! How do LEO's know your little SBR is legal?
Show the damn paper and go have fun!
Calling my bluff? Come to Fl and they will show you what happens when you dont produce proper paper work. Ive seen it happen. Not a pretty site
</div></div>
(this is a great example of the repect my authorit-ie!)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1
Be a Dick, go to Jail.. You may beat the charge, but you WONT beat the ride LOL
</div></div>
(the above amounts to nothing more than blatant harrasment, since the poster knows that there is no chance that there is a convictable "crime").
So you are going to hyper ventilate over the possibility of someone not paying a one time tax? Seriously? I think that overly qualifies you as a dick.
Of all the B.S. that is wrong with the world that is what you are going to get your undies in a twist over...
If you are really in law enforcement you should seek a new career, as you clearly lack any sort of commonsense or ability to prioritize what is really a public safety issue.
- Dave
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any LEO.
*snip*
You can bet, 100 percent, that if you are on a range with me and you have a full-auto or SBR, I will ask for papers. If you have a suppressor in my state... F&G violation. I know you won't have papers. Suppressors aren't available, period. Which sucks. But there you go.
Understand, I am not asking for papers to be a dick. *snip*
Just my $0.02.
Cheers,
Sirhr
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being in possession of a SBR, Suppressor or anyother Class III Item.. You want to be a Dick to the local LEO's then your ass is going to jail! How do LEO's know your little SBR is legal?
Show the damn paper and go have fun!
Calling my bluff? Come to Fl and they will show you what happens when you dont produce proper paper work. Ive seen it happen. Not a pretty site
</div></div>
(this is a great example of the repect my authorit-ie!)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1
Be a Dick, go to Jail.. You may beat the charge, but you WONT beat the ride LOL
</div></div>
(the above amounts to nothing more than blatant harrasment, since the poster knows that there is no chance that there is a convictable "crime").
So you are going to hyper ventilate over the possibility of someone not paying a one time tax? Seriously? I think that overly qualifies you as a dick.
Of all the B.S. that is wrong with the world that is what you are going to get your undies in a twist over...
If you are really in law enforcement you should seek a new career, as you clearly lack any sort of commonsense or ability to prioritize what is really a public safety issue.
- Dave
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
</div></div>
Hoooooya Lofty!!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
</div></div>
Hoooooya Lofty!!!!!
Re: Who can ask for papers?
These topics usually end up going this way.
Type A Cop Guy rides in on horse and acts excited about doing his job and being an overbearing dick. But it's okay because he's only trying to somehow help us all. He uses reasoning that only works coming from a cop's mouth. If anyone he meets tries to use the same unsubstantiated lack luster logic to explain their behavior, our cop would have a field day with them.
Disenchanted Type A citizen has had quite enough of cops being excited about exercising their perceived power to harass law abiding citizens. He has no patience with the cop who's trying to pretend he's one of the masses. His past experiences with law enforcement has left such a sour taste in his mouth nothing will get it out.
<span style="font-weight: bold">What we all need is a handy guide....
</span>Every encounter with law enforcement can be separated into two distinct categories.
1--We are here to give you an award/key to the city.
2--We are here to arrest someone and otherwise ruin their day. That person might as well be you.
If he's asking you for your papers, assume he's hoping to fill the space in his cars backseat with your likeness. He's not your friend. He doesn't care about how much your build cost or how well done it is. Cops are the best liars out there. They say anything to get you to believe they are just like you in the hopes that you keep talking and say something they can use to lock you up. Or give you a fine. We must not forget the fines.
Even in Texas, the moment you make a half assed attempt to prove you are in compliance with the law you are legally covered. There is no requirement to 100% prove your innocence on the spot with out a shadow of a doubt. They can press and if they cross the line any lawyer in the book can get you a hefty check from their jurisdictions Victim's fund. So have fun with it.
These topics usually end up going this way.
Type A Cop Guy rides in on horse and acts excited about doing his job and being an overbearing dick. But it's okay because he's only trying to somehow help us all. He uses reasoning that only works coming from a cop's mouth. If anyone he meets tries to use the same unsubstantiated lack luster logic to explain their behavior, our cop would have a field day with them.
Disenchanted Type A citizen has had quite enough of cops being excited about exercising their perceived power to harass law abiding citizens. He has no patience with the cop who's trying to pretend he's one of the masses. His past experiences with law enforcement has left such a sour taste in his mouth nothing will get it out.
<span style="font-weight: bold">What we all need is a handy guide....
</span>Every encounter with law enforcement can be separated into two distinct categories.
1--We are here to give you an award/key to the city.
2--We are here to arrest someone and otherwise ruin their day. That person might as well be you.
If he's asking you for your papers, assume he's hoping to fill the space in his cars backseat with your likeness. He's not your friend. He doesn't care about how much your build cost or how well done it is. Cops are the best liars out there. They say anything to get you to believe they are just like you in the hopes that you keep talking and say something they can use to lock you up. Or give you a fine. We must not forget the fines.
Even in Texas, the moment you make a half assed attempt to prove you are in compliance with the law you are legally covered. There is no requirement to 100% prove your innocence on the spot with out a shadow of a doubt. They can press and if they cross the line any lawyer in the book can get you a hefty check from their jurisdictions Victim's fund. So have fun with it.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Even in Texas, the moment you make a half assed attempt to prove you are in compliance with the law you are legally covered. There is no requirement to 100% prove your innocence on the spot with out a shadow of a doubt. They can press and if they cross the line any lawyer in the book can get you a hefty check from their jurisdictions Victim's fund. So have fun with it.
Not being American (or even IN America) that seems to me, to be saying that if asked for your paperwork, you reach into your pocket, then tell the cop that it's not there, you have complied with the law, and proved your innocence, even if you don't actually have the correct paperwork/permit/licence or whatever!
That being said, it would seem to be a pointless exercise filling out a form and shelling out good money, if you can can get away with it as easily as that!
Even in Texas, the moment you make a half assed attempt to prove you are in compliance with the law you are legally covered. There is no requirement to 100% prove your innocence on the spot with out a shadow of a doubt. They can press and if they cross the line any lawyer in the book can get you a hefty check from their jurisdictions Victim's fund. So have fun with it.
Not being American (or even IN America) that seems to me, to be saying that if asked for your paperwork, you reach into your pocket, then tell the cop that it's not there, you have complied with the law, and proved your innocence, even if you don't actually have the correct paperwork/permit/licence or whatever!
That being said, it would seem to be a pointless exercise filling out a form and shelling out good money, if you can can get away with it as easily as that!
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If he's asking you for your papers, assume he's hoping to fill the space in his cars backseat with your likeness. He's not your friend. He doesn't care about how much your build cost or how well done it is. Cops are the best liars out there. They say anything to get you to believe they are just like you in the hopes that you keep talking and say something they can use to lock you up. Or give you a fine. We must not forget the fines.
</div></div>
I was going to stay out of this, but having dealt with many cops and know a couple as "friends". Truer words have never been spoken. They talk in riddles and shit just to watch you stumble.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If he's asking you for your papers, assume he's hoping to fill the space in his cars backseat with your likeness. He's not your friend. He doesn't care about how much your build cost or how well done it is. Cops are the best liars out there. They say anything to get you to believe they are just like you in the hopes that you keep talking and say something they can use to lock you up. Or give you a fine. We must not forget the fines.
</div></div>
I was going to stay out of this, but having dealt with many cops and know a couple as "friends". Truer words have never been spoken. They talk in riddles and shit just to watch you stumble.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Teabag, because the point your missing is that a city police officer has nothing to do with your tax stamp for owning an NFA item.
No different than a cop or sheriff asking to see your W2, K1 or your tax return. The only appropriate answer is "no, piss off".
Besides, how many criminals that own illegal NFA tems actually bring them out in public shooting places where these over zealous cops demand to see your paperwork?
I own an Osprey suppressor by Silencerco. There are only two ways I can own it, legally......having been approved by BATFE with the appropriate stamp. Or illegally and there's only one way I could have obtained it illegally, by stealing it.
So when a cop approaches me and says "lemme see your paperwork", he is assuming I am a criminal just by the mere fact I am in possession of my legally owned item and he is demanding I show him paperwork to prove I'm not. He is also assuming I'm an idiot and that I would bring my illegally owned items to a place in plain view of the public so he could catch me.
I don't take well to being called a stupid criminal.
Teabag, because the point your missing is that a city police officer has nothing to do with your tax stamp for owning an NFA item.
No different than a cop or sheriff asking to see your W2, K1 or your tax return. The only appropriate answer is "no, piss off".
Besides, how many criminals that own illegal NFA tems actually bring them out in public shooting places where these over zealous cops demand to see your paperwork?
I own an Osprey suppressor by Silencerco. There are only two ways I can own it, legally......having been approved by BATFE with the appropriate stamp. Or illegally and there's only one way I could have obtained it illegally, by stealing it.
So when a cop approaches me and says "lemme see your paperwork", he is assuming I am a criminal just by the mere fact I am in possession of my legally owned item and he is demanding I show him paperwork to prove I'm not. He is also assuming I'm an idiot and that I would bring my illegally owned items to a place in plain view of the public so he could catch me.
I don't take well to being called a stupid criminal.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
</div></div>
I applaud you for sticking up for the 2nd, but you really cant compare our firearms rights to driving. Nowhere in the constitution does it mention that driving is our right, its merely a privilege. So to compare the two is not fair. They do not have the right to harass you but would you not agree that it could have been easier to show the paperwork instead of potentially being detained? They do have the right to see that paperwork and you have the right to speak to their superior officer. In some cases, they can confiscate the item. Class 3 is not just federal level, it is also controlled by state law. Any LE officer can ask for the paperwork be presented, hell a game warden can lock you up for hunting with one if your in violation. There is to much gray area... cooperate if you can but also protect your rights, I agree on that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyeDaddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If anybody does decide to tell a cop to fuck off instead of showing your papers, please come back and tell us about it, I know I'd LOVE to hear the story. </div></div>
I have.
Well to be precise, I didn't tell him to fuck off......I was polite and explained nicely why I wasn't going to show him anything. He spoke with the range master who then came over and asked that I show him my paperwork and again I declined. The range master asked my to remove my SBR/Silencer combo from the range and I said no problem, your range, your rules.
A local law enforcement officer has no business looking at my federal tax documents.
As someone mentioned, can anyone please post the exact statute that says that owning an NFA item in their state is illegal but having the stamp is a defense and this allows an end around his legal authority.
For that matter why don't they make driving a car illegal but a license is a defense, so then they can pull over anyone they want anytime they want to verify they aren't a criminal?
Our rights are eroding faster than we can hang on to them anyways. The amount of bizarre twisted laws, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes and codes is getting to the point that everything is illegal. Make enough things illegal and eventually the government controls everything just by deciding whether or not they want to pursue you for it.
The NFA laws are unconstitutional in and of themselves........I am forced via unconstitutional laws to abide by them under enforcement by the BATFE. I abide because I don't have the money to fight them nor the desire to rot in federal prison while I do. I am not going to exacerbate the problem by satisfying the impulses of an over zealous police officer that gets his jollies harassing me while I'm having fun and doing so legally.
Edit: in fact I'd go one step further. I believe that every American has a patriotic duty to legally......I SAID LEGALLY resist the unconstitutional encroachment of your rights by law enforcement any time they can. You have a duty to yourself and your family to know your rights and to demand that law enforcement officers respect them and know the boundaries of their authority.
How convienant to say, "dude, it takes 5 minutes to just show your papers and have him on his way."
No thanks, anytime the camel sticks his nose under the tent and I can legally do so, I'll smack it right in the snout.
</div></div>
I applaud you for sticking up for the 2nd, but you really cant compare our firearms rights to driving. Nowhere in the constitution does it mention that driving is our right, its merely a privilege. So to compare the two is not fair. They do not have the right to harass you but would you not agree that it could have been easier to show the paperwork instead of potentially being detained? They do have the right to see that paperwork and you have the right to speak to their superior officer. In some cases, they can confiscate the item. Class 3 is not just federal level, it is also controlled by state law. Any LE officer can ask for the paperwork be presented, hell a game warden can lock you up for hunting with one if your in violation. There is to much gray area... cooperate if you can but also protect your rights, I agree on that.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
For a bunch of guys that like showing off their expensive ass toys we sure are stingy with a piece of paper worth 200 bucks. I show mine like its a badge of honor. I have something cool and waited months for it. Look, here's proof!
For a bunch of guys that like showing off their expensive ass toys we sure are stingy with a piece of paper worth 200 bucks. I show mine like its a badge of honor. I have something cool and waited months for it. Look, here's proof!
Re: Who can ask for papers?
Well this kind of went a different way than I was wanting but I think most LEO try to enforce what they think is the law with every breath. The problem is most of what they come across to enforce is traffic fines and a best strait harassment of the general public to find something arrest able. I think given the chance ( God forbid ) LEOs are some of the only hero’s we have in this culture of _____ and _____. It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO.
Well this kind of went a different way than I was wanting but I think most LEO try to enforce what they think is the law with every breath. The problem is most of what they come across to enforce is traffic fines and a best strait harassment of the general public to find something arrest able. I think given the chance ( God forbid ) LEOs are some of the only hero’s we have in this culture of _____ and _____. It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will they arrest me for? </div></div>
Possession of a Prohibited Weapon
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What will they arrest me for? </div></div>
Possession of a Prohibited Weapon
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range? </div></div>
Gawd I wish you were in Texas. I'd love to give you your destiny.
If you are in possession of an NFA item you are required to have your tax stamp with you. Call it a 'tax document' if you like, but it is your proof that your item is legally possessed. If it isnt legally possessed and your dumb enough to bring it to the range, youre going to jail. If it IS legally possessed and your dumb and stubborn enough not to take 10 seconds to prove it then youre going to jail. Its all very simple.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess I'm destined to take a trip downtown one day in bracelets......cause I'll be damned if I'm stepping back off my rights one iota just to appease some cop....that is most likely gonna be off duty anyway.....otherwise what's he doing at a public range? </div></div>
Gawd I wish you were in Texas. I'd love to give you your destiny.
If you are in possession of an NFA item you are required to have your tax stamp with you. Call it a 'tax document' if you like, but it is your proof that your item is legally possessed. If it isnt legally possessed and your dumb enough to bring it to the range, youre going to jail. If it IS legally possessed and your dumb and stubborn enough not to take 10 seconds to prove it then youre going to jail. Its all very simple.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO. </div></div>
WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO. </div></div>
WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved.
Re: Who can ask for papers?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO. </div></div>
WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved. </div></div>
Yes, but unfortunately not every officer is keen to the Class 3 game. They are misinformed and owning a SBR or suppressor must make you a hitman for the mob. You either run into that officer that IS a gun enthusiast and knows his stuff, or you get Barney the donut eating mall cop hero that just wants to polish his badge and look good on paper.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jheat308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It’s a fine line when you have power not to step over or get big chested about it but that being said if ever asked for papers I will tell them NO. </div></div>
WTF!? What 'fine line'?? Its either legally owned or its not. I ask for the paperwork, you pull it out of your pocket, I go away. Jeezuz, whats so hard about that?? No chest thumping or overstepping of authority involved. </div></div>
Yes, but unfortunately not every officer is keen to the Class 3 game. They are misinformed and owning a SBR or suppressor must make you a hitman for the mob. You either run into that officer that IS a gun enthusiast and knows his stuff, or you get Barney the donut eating mall cop hero that just wants to polish his badge and look good on paper.
