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Who makes good 'match grade' AR barrels?

TheGerman

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  • Jan 25, 2010
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    Think my old reliable Stag AR that I've dragged all over the world needs a new barrel. It's always just been a M193 thrower, but was trying to get some handloads for hunting through it and I think it deserves a new, better barrel after 12+ years.

    Who makes really good, 'match grade' AR barrels? Am trying to decide if I should stay with a carbine gas length or go mid length but regardless, want a match grade barrel. Additionally, since I'm shooting M193 mainly as well as some hunting loads (55g ballistic tips) should I stay with a 1:9 or go 1:8 or 1:7?
     
    I purchased a barrel from Shilen and it was very accurate. They make a variety of contours/grades, etc.

    Shilen AR15 Barrels

    PROOF also makes AR15 Barrels...I recently started using one in my AI and it is a HAMMER. Don't have first hand experience with their AR offerings
     
    Obviously all of us on this site are fans of Bartlein, Krieger, Broughton, etc. If you don't need that level of accuracy, and are willing to chance just being sub moa, take a look at ballistic advantage. They make very reasonably priced barrels and have an moa or sub moa guarantee. Can't remember which it is, but my one barrel from them (6.5 Creedmoor AR-10), is very accurate.
     
    ..... Am trying to decide if I should stay with a carbine gas length or go mid length
    ..... should I stay with a 1:9 or go 1:8 or 1:7?
    Assuming you're after a 14.5" or longer there is no reason in the world to go carbine length. I wouldn't even do mid for 16".
    1:8 seems to be the most flexible twist but 1:7 will almost always shoot 55's fine. Most people getting poor accuracy with 55's in a 1:7 are also shooting junk ammo that will shoot poorly no matter the twist. Then they insist 55's are too light to anyone that will listen.
     
    I'd also vote to try BA. I just built a 308 AR10 using a bull barrel from Ballistic Advantage ($266) and I was able to land 2 hits in a row on torso sized steel out to 900 yards. I was mostly load testing for pressure on the first visit, ran out of ammo before I could try 1000 yards.

    It looks like it will end up being a sub MOA rifle once I get comfortable with it. The head spacing with my JP bolt is also right on.

    The feed ramp edges were razor sharp and needed a little smoothing to save my brass, but that only took a few minutes to fix.
     
    +1 on jp enterprises, each barrel comes with a headspaced bolt. And look at Rainer arms they have noveske, proof, faxon, and their ultra match barrels are made from shillen blanks and are very accurate.
     
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    There are lots of good choices.

    I recently bought an 18" fluted Remington R15 blem barrel from JSE for $75. It has 1 in 9" twist so not great for heavy bullets and it sold out but some times you can find a nice barrel very cheap.

    I expect it to shoot sub MOA with good ammo. I'll be a bit disappointed if I can't find a load that shoots 1/2 MOA with the 50 grain bulk packaged Hornady ZMAX bullets I bought recently.

    What you want to do to build an accurate AR is avoid chrome lined barrels, they usually don't have the closest tollerances because of the plating process, get a barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber which is tighter than NATO 5.56 but still loose enough to shoot 5.56 ammo, free float the barrel and make sure the gas system is well tuned for smooth operation.

    I would go with mid-length gas on a 16" barrel. Carbine length was really designed for 11.5" Commando M16s and was a hold over when the M4 carbine was designed. A short gas system allows much higher pressure in the gas system and excessive dwell. Mid-length is much better unless you have a barrel less than 14".

    If you don't want to take a chance on a cheap barrel, there are several makers who can get you Sub MOA without match grade pricing and lead time.

    AR15 Performance is a good place to look, they are focused on accurate hunting barrels. Wilson Combat has some very nice accuracy oriented barrels. Criterion is probably good but a bit expensive.

    There are several good options in the $200 range. Add a cheap DPMS tube style free-float handguard or a more expensive free-float handguard and you're pretty much done. Lapping your upper to square the barrel seat is a good idea and some people use loktite to bed the barrel extension inside the upper.

    You could spend more but if you're going to shoot M193, I wouldn't bother, the ammo will limit accuracy more than the barrel will.
     
    I had compass lake turn out a 26" bartlein for target/critter work. Boringly accurate. I think a 1-8 twist in your factory offerings, or a 7.7 in a custom tube, would serve best for about any ammo combo. I've had great success with Noveke's polygonal 1-7 barrels in the stability/accuracy department.
     
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    Might try McGowan and ER Shaw. A Buddy has also had good results at very economical prices from AR Stoner. These barrels may not be in the 'preferred' grouping, but they can be very good buys. I have also had good luck with 3 different barrels purchased from Stag, but I think they are probably made by one of the first two I mentioned here. I always also mention Lothar-Walther.

    Greg
     
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    The ultimate is having Compass Lake Engineering or Craddock Precision spin you up a Bartlein with a JP barrel extension. You aren't going to get more accurate than that.

    The best bang for the buck is probably Lothar Walther is a 16in for around $250. AR Performance is the runner up for value at around $200.

    You want 1:7 or 1:8, no reason to go 1:9. The 1:7 is just as accurate with 55gr as the 1:9.

    Just keep in mind a much nicer barrel won't make crappy XM193 much more accurate.
     
    My WOA 1:7 Sdm shoots a legit 0.5xx 6x6 in a factory Colt with nothing more than a geissle trigger using 77tmk
     
    @padom always comes up with something unique.

    Lots of opinions on this thread. I probably cannot add much value beyond what has been written, so I will be brief. Base upon the facts given, I would advocate for a factory Criterion barrel. Steve and Stephanie D. continue to innovate. As much as CLE is my go-to smith for great barrels, if you are shooting M193, I would not spend extra for Frank's expertise. That is not a put-down to Criterion, either.

    Also, I have add props to BAT for extensions, since JP was mentioned.
     
    +1 on jp enterprises, each barrel comes with a headspaced bolt. And look at Rainer arms they have noveske, proof, faxon, and their ultra match barrels are made from shillen blanks and are very accurate.

    My wife just got bought a rifle from a guy here on the Hide that has one of those Rainier ultramatch/Shilen barrels. I know she’s excited to get it, but I may have To steal it from her for a range trip as I’ve always wanted to see what those barrels can do. Not an ultramatch, but I run a Rainier 14.5” on my 2 gun rifle, and that barrel just keeps on going, with great accuracy too! It loves those Norma match 55gr!
     
    @padom always comes up with something unique.

    Lots of opinions on this thread. I probably cannot add much value beyond what has been written, so I will be brief. Base upon the facts given, I would advocate for a factory Criterion barrel. Steve and Stephanie D. continue to innovate. As much as CLE is my go-to smith for great barrels, if you are shooting M193, I would not spend extra for Frank's expertise. That is not a put-down to Criterion, either.

    Also, I have add props to BAT for extensions, since JP was mentioned.

    Well, John Scandale (Keystone Accuracy) isn't really that unique, if that's what you mean. John just isn't a major advertiser, and caters mostly to competitors.

    He's a pretty damned good shooter as well. Shot for the All Guard Highpower teams, won the 1,000 Yard Service Rifle National Championship, Distinguished High Master...that kinda thing. He is an experienced machinist, uses quality inputs, and a high-precision CNC; the result is a high-quality output. His stock blank is a Green Mountain, and he keeps Krieger on the shelf as well.

    A note about Keystone Accuracy: his rimfire trainers are special. Functioning up-to-and-including full-auto, they are still capable of 1 MOA or better, with good ammo. At 100 yards--a litmus for .22 rifles--they will clean standard targets that were intended more for Anschutz, et al. bolt guns.

    Of the smiths and shops out there, there are only TWO that I prefer to work with, and THREE whose shops I would feel comfortable with if I needed a really accurate AR-15. In my order of preference, those are:

    1) John Holliger and staff at White Oak Armament. Best AR barrel I ever had came out of this shop. My 600 yard 80 SMK loads grouped in the 4's with A2 Irons.

    2) John Scandale at Keystone Accuracy. My 1,000 yard upper was put together by Keystone, along with probably the most accurate rimfire Trainer in the entire midwest...it would beat the dogshit out of your factory Sav-CZ-uger, and for a blow-back AR upper with a conversion kit, that's really something.

    3) Frank White and staff at Compass Lake Engineering. Frank and I had some nasty words once, but I will say, if you need anything really custom, or a special part made, Frank's the guy. CLE is MAKING a lot of the parts and tools some other shops sell and use. Just be careful with his chamber...it's short, and tight.

    Derrick Martin (Accuracy Speaks) and Bill Wylde would have been on my list at one time, but they're not doing much work anymore. Maybe Scott Medesha, but same.

    As with many other things, as far as accuracy with an AR, it really depends on how fast you need that rifle to go. I have been down the road a long, long way. They can do amazing things if you need them to badly enough.

    -Nate
     
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    Here's another opinion. I had poor luck with two White Oak barrels. Bought a complete upper from them. First one, a 18"SPR shot terrible. Sent it back they installed a 20"service match. Shoots just okay, but will toss a shot now and then. Sent it back to white Oak. John Holliger shot it with some MK 262 @ .098" and called it good and sent it back to me. This fucking barrel still tosses one -two every 15-20 rounds. Not consistent. I'll never buy another White Oak. I went back and forth with them I had photos with targets. Done with them. They seem to have a good reputation, but it didn't work out for me.

    On a second upper, I Tried two Rainier super match barrels. Sent the first one back, wouldn't hold 1 MOA. Second one, a 18" SPR shoots okay, not much better than the first, will just break 1 MOA without tossing any, nothing spectacular, but I'll keep it. None of the barrels will shoot the Hornady 73 ELDM.

    I'm pulling the 20" White Oak off the first upper. I just bought a 20" Criterion Hybrid from Brownells to try. I hope this works out. Criterion and Brownells are good to deal with.

    I haven't tried Compass Lake. I'll see what happens with the Criterion first. Maybe I'll just have to get a Kreiger. I just want a barrel that will hold 1 MOA with 5 shots.
     
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    Rainier Match or Ultramatch- I’ve got 2 of the UM’s and they can produce sub .3moa 5 shot groups with the 73eld-m bullets (Thanks Padom). The Match barrel has done great with the 75 hpbt, typically .7 moa or better.

    Ballistic Advantage is a good option as well. I shot one of their 223/5.56 barrels a few weeks back and it was definitely sub-moa. My BA 6.5 creedmoor barrel is a hammer.

    I’d go mid length on a 16”, and Rifle length on anything longer.

    I’d also ditch the x193 if I wanted accuracy. Rainier and BA have an accuracy guarantee, but it’s for match anmo. The x193 isn’t consistent enough to allow even a decent barrel to shine.
     
    Plus one for Wilson Combat. AR10&15. 1/8 for the 10 and 1/7 for the 15. So impressed with Wilson that I put their barrels in my Glocks.?
     
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    +1 for white oak. If I remember correctly, they use Wilson combat blanks. Here is a white oak rifle length 1:8 223 wylde with magtech m262 clone ammo made in Brazil:

    FD24A8C4-5BF6-4BDC-9B54-FA72484958CA.jpeg


    0188F4CB-4340-4CB8-94E3-CB1BC52FFFEE.jpeg
     
    Satern if you can get him to cut one for you, Krieger and other top end cut rifle makers are my choice. For button rifled barrels I like Lilja.

    Noveske makes what I consider to be one of the best "all around" barrels --they're pretty accurate and take a lot of abuse too. I tend to use these for SBR's, hard to lose. They aren't what I'd call "precision" though they may make one, I don't know.
     
    I have a 20" Rainier Ultramatch, .223 Wylde that shoots very nicely. IMI 77gr Razorcore is what I shoot through it almost exclusively and that combo is great.
     
    Krieger is going th be slow.
    Proof is going to be fastest barrel and as accurate as any.
    Douglas is fast, accurate and Long bore life.

    In a 5.56 velocity really counts in the field. Some barrels can vary as much as 175 FPS at top pressure. Not sure why.
     
    Krieger is going th be slow.
    Proof is going to be fastest barrel and as accurate as any.
    Douglas is fast, accurate and Long bore life.

    In a 5.56 velocity really counts in the field. Some barrels can vary as much as 175 FPS at top pressure. Not sure why.

    Uh. What?

    Check that, reverse it. Match competitors find that Krieger SR tubes tend to run 50-100 fps faster than most others.

    But yes, because it is so ballistically anemic, the 5.56x45 really does need to keep speed up on the short end of the range to have any chance at being effective at mid- to long-range.
     
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    My results on 15+ barrels are enough for me. Krieger’s are slow. Douglas is fast but not as fast as the two proofs I have tested.
     
    I have my first Kreiger bolt gun barrel on my 6.5x47L right now. Its 27" and shooting 140 Hybrids with 37g Varget at 2830. My last 5 barrels from Bartlein, Rock cut, Rock button, GM button all 26" shot the exact load sat 2810. So 1" on the Kreiger gave me 20fps... I would say that's avg to a tad slow but definitely not fast. It shoots lights out though.
     
    My Krieger AR barrels were the slow ones. Not 5R that I recall. Other Krieger's have been good and normal velocity. The Navy also found Kreiger's slow in their Mk 12 testing. As one of the posters above stated, the 5.56 needs all the velocity it can get to give energy transfer and bullet expansion. Velocity drop shows up quickly in performance. Odd thing is that a fast barrel works to ranges where the velocity is slowed down below where a slow barrel starts. Not sure if that is rotational effect transferring more energy (higher RPM) or simply animals are less disturbed further from the shot. The results are clear but the actual cause is not clear to me.
     
    Odd thing is that a fast barrel works to ranges where the velocity is slowed down below where a slow barrel starts. Not sure if that is rotational effect transferring more energy (higher RPM) or simply animals are less disturbed further from the shot. The results are clear but the actual cause is not clear to me.

    Huh? Please clarify. It sounds interesting, but I can't resolve what you were tryin' to communicate...



    What we've got here is...

    -Nate
     
    OK, lets just plug in some numbers. Shooting a 77 grain SMK at 2670 FPS it is a bit anemic even at 50M. This from an 18" Krieger 7 twist barrel.

    Now shoot the same 7 twist 18" in a Proof barrel @ 2850 FPS. This is a killer on game. (These are not actual data, but very close to my actual results.) Downrange at some distance, let's say 300 meters that bullet has slowed to well below the 2670 of the other barrel. Odd thing is that this barrel still kills well. It also kills well at 600 M where the velocity is much slower. That is what I cannot explain. But I have seen it over the useful life of several barrels. The fast ones kill well even when the velocity has dropped. The 5.56, being on the edge of adequate for my use simply starts to fail when MV drops below 2700 FPS. The faster barrels still kill well once the velocity has dropped well below that velocity. I think rotational velocity is at least part of the reason. It stresses the bullet jacket and breaks it apart transferring more energy. Only explanation I can come up with.

    I do know that even when 9 twist barrels will stabilize the 77 GR SMK it will not kill well.
     
    AH. Had my coffee now.

    Yes, I would definitely go with the rpm effect. Deal is, yes, axial momentum and speed attrit at a much, much slower rate than does velocity. It's fairly well accepted that most long range bullets cannot withstand the many orders of magnitude increase in overturning moment of inertia when they hit a bag of water and muscle, regardless of the rigidity of their rotational axis.

    A bullet with higher rpm at impact, when catastrophically yawed sideways putting the weak axis of the bullet into the oncoming material, will tend to break apart more violently than a marginally gyro stable bullet, regardless of velocity.

    Agree.

    -Nate
     
    +1 for Compass Lake. I recently sent them my 1.5 MOA FN Carbine length upper and received back a Krieger 1/7.7 free floated 0.5MOA tack driver. Looks EXACTLY like how it was sent, only it shoots 1” smaller groups. I also have a 20” CL upper that shoots the same.
     
    Think my old reliable Stag AR that I've dragged all over the world needs a new barrel. It's always just been a M193 thrower, but was trying to get some handloads for hunting through it and I think it deserves a new, better barrel after 12+ years.

    Who makes really good, 'match grade' AR barrels? Am trying to decide if I should stay with a carbine gas length or go mid length but regardless, want a match grade barrel. Additionally, since I'm shooting M193 mainly as well as some hunting loads (55g ballistic tips) should I stay with a 1:9 or go 1:8 or 1:7?
    To the op doesn’t Stag warranty the barrel for life I would check with them.
     
    To the op doesn’t Stag warranty the barrel for life I would check with them.

    lol holy shit, from their site it looks like they do. That's about the absolute last thing I thought anyone would warranty.

    Guess I can send it to them and see if they send a new one back; worse case they say no, or I end up with an extra barrel sitting around.
     
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    It is a odd warranty plan but I would be curious if they stand behind their warranty for you. Keep us updated on the customer service.
     
    Just a little update from my earlier post from April 30th. I got a criterion Chrome lined Hybrid 20" last Monday from Brownells. Put it on a free floated upper and shot it in two range sessions. I shot a total of about 380 rounds with a cleaning at the half mark. I was using the following bullets: 62 Horn. OTM, 68 Horn OTM, 69 Sierra TMK, 69 Nosler CC, 70 Nosler RDF, 73 Horn. ELDM, Sierra 77 OTM and 77 Nosler CC. Results were pathetic. This barrel will not shoot bullets well over 68 grains. Powders tried were: AR Comp, 2000 MR, 8208XBR, H-4895, RE-15 and Varget. I shot 3- 5 shot groups with each load combination. I used a Bushnell 3.5-21DMR (1) that has been on other accurate rifles.

    The Sierra 77 OTM with RE-15,Varget and 8208 shot 1.5"-2"- 5 shot groups. The 24.0 gr. Varget load was so bad @ 2"+ I stopped the test at 2- 5 shot groups. There was only one bullet, the 62 gr. Hornady OTM from Midsouth with AR Comp that broke @-under 1 MOA for 6- 5 shot groups. Nothing else did. The 68 Hornady OTM came in second with a couple of groups @ 1 MOA and a little over.

    All of the ammo was checked on my runout gauge to be not usually over .003".

    I'll be giving Criterion a call next week. So disappointing.
     
    Just a little update from my earlier post from April 30th. I got a criterion Chrome lined Hybrid 20" last Monday from Brownells. Put it on a free floated upper and shot it in two range sessions. I shot a total of about 380 rounds with a cleaning at the half mark. I was using the following bullets: 62 Horn. OTM, 68 Horn OTM, 69 Sierra TMK, 69 Nosler CC, 70 Nosler RDF, 73 Horn. ELDM, Sierra 77 OTM and 77 Nosler CC. Results were pathetic. This barrel will not shoot bullets well over 68 grains. Powders tried were: AR Comp, 2000 MR, 8208XBR, H-4895, RE-15 and Varget. I shot 3- 5 shot groups with each load combination. I used a Bushnell 3.5-21DMR (1) that has been on other accurate rifles.

    The Sierra 77 OTM with RE-15,Varget and 8208 shot 1.5"-2"- 5 shot groups. The 24.0 gr. Varget load was so bad @ 2"+ I stopped the test at 2- 5 shot groups. There was only one bullet, the 62 gr. Hornady OTM from Midsouth with AR Comp that broke @-under 1 MOA for 6- 5 shot groups. Nothing else did. The 68 Hornady OTM came in second with a couple of groups @ 1 MOA and a little over.

    All of the ammo was checked on my runout gauge to be not usually over .003".

    I'll be giving Criterion a call next week. So disappointing.
    I'm not trolling you, but I will ask a blunt question:

    How good are you behind the rifles?

    You've stated twice in the same thread that you have had terrible accuracy from THREE different--and generally accepted as high quality--barrels.

    AR rifles do require some technique and handling at a level different than a bolt gun.

    Like I said, not an attack by any means, but your factual statements could use an little defense in light of the media and the sheer number of load combinations you tried to manage.
     
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    Just a little update from my earlier post from April 30th. I got a criterion Chrome lined Hybrid 20" last Monday from Brownells. Put it on a free floated upper and shot it in two range sessions. I shot a total of about 380 rounds with a cleaning at the half mark. I was using the following bullets: 62 Horn. OTM, 68 Horn OTM, 69 Sierra TMK, 69 Nosler CC, 70 Nosler RDF, 73 Horn. ELDM, Sierra 77 OTM and 77 Nosler CC. Results were pathetic. This barrel will not shoot bullets well over 68 grains. Powders tried were: AR Comp, 2000 MR, 8208XBR, H-4895, RE-15 and Varget. I shot 3- 5 shot groups with each load combination. I used a Bushnell 3.5-21DMR (1) that has been on other accurate rifles.

    The Sierra 77 OTM with RE-15,Varget and 8208 shot 1.5"-2"- 5 shot groups. The 24.0 gr. Varget load was so bad @ 2"+ I stopped the test at 2- 5 shot groups. There was only one bullet, the 62 gr. Hornady OTM from Midsouth with AR Comp that broke @-under 1 MOA for 6- 5 shot groups. Nothing else did. The 68 Hornady OTM came in second with a couple of groups @ 1 MOA and a little over.

    All of the ammo was checked on my runout gauge to be not usually over .003".

    I'll be giving Criterion a call next week. So disappointing.

    Just a little heads up if your looking for a accurate ar do not buy a chrome lined barrel. And also just send it back to Brownells they are great to work with.
     
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