Why are Proof Carbon Fiber barrels superior to Christensen? BSF? Dracos?

HolyCity73

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Should be a hair lighter after the smith work.
615DCBA7-3243-4BE5-BD61-C2594B04EDDE.jpeg
 
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LilGucci

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A friend was considering getting one just to take them up on their warranty claims and this is what I speculated would happen. They are the ones that get to decide when it is "shot out." Most of us would pull a barrel if it goes from .25 MOA to .75 MOA, etc but maybe their standard is 4 MOA, then you are stuck with blowing several hundreds of dollars of ammo through a shitty barrel. Sleezy business claim.

I'm thinking of just getting one for my Nemo-Wilson showcase build, the green or blue colored one. They look really cool... I just wish they had chrome-lined Dracos barrels that I can shoot the crap out of with any non-match ammo, because using non-match grade ammo voids your warranty.
 

LilGucci

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That test was completely flawed and debunked as being BS...

The mistook mirage off the barrel for shifting or walking, they didn't know what they were doing

I saw how the two companies build a barrel, as well I have spent time at Bartlein if it was my Money Proof every time over CA

That actually saddens me. Proof has a right to charge what they do, because the performance of their products are pretty outstanding, but I wished Christensen (or other entries into the carbon-fiber arena) would give them some serious competition.
 

AMGtuned

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I'm thinking of just getting one for my Nemo-Wilson showcase build, the green or blue colored one. They look really cool... I just wish they had chrome-lined Dracos barrels that I can shoot the crap out of with any non-match ammo, because using non-match grade ammo voids your warranty.


If you had a StraightJacket barrel system, you could use any barrel your heart desired. They wrap the barrel you give them
 
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LilGucci

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If you had a StraightJacket barrel system, you could use any barrel your heart desired. They wrap the barrel you give them
If you had a StraightJacket barrel system, you could use any barrel your heart desired. They wrap the barrel you give them

I had never heard of a StraightJacket Barrel System before. I had heard that Dracos was working with (and now owns) another company to make their barrels but I never knew it was them (Teludyne). I'll give them a try, especially now that I can pick use any barrel!
 

Friday

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I’ve got a 223 I just had DMR put together for me with a proof 1/8 twist it’s a bad ass little rifle And I have a carbon 6 built 6cm 1/7 twist and both rifles shoot lights out can’t find anything wrong with ether the quality is identical imho I think carbon 6 has made a huge push into the carbon fiber market, I was a little disappointed that they don’t do machine work on actions anymore, if they did that 223 would be a carbon 6 barrel
 
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j741

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    if you go over to Long Range Only which is a long range hunting forum you'll find that they seem to think very highly of CA.

    I left that forum after it was too many examples of behavior and reviews that could only be explained by LRO guys being well paid for their reviews. Even video reviews with crap fundamentals & accuracy were explained away as nothing wrong with the Christensen rifle. They also quickly remove any negative posts about any forum sponsor and ban people. definitely not the place to speak freely or trust for reliable information.
     
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    AMGtuned

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    I had never heard of a StraightJacket Barrel System before. I had heard that Dracos was working with (and now owns) another company to make their barrels but I never knew it was them (Teludyne). I'll give them a try, especially now that I can pick use any barrel!
    StraightJacket is the OG. Dracos has a loan agreement on the patent in order to make their barrels. The SJ system is a little different than the Dracos. First being overall diameter (dracos 30mm, SJ 1.25"), your barrel gets wrapped with SJ, Dracos sells you a barrel all done, because the Dracos is 30mm, a standard barrel nut slides right down over it all. With the SJ, your barrel nut will be fixed on to the barrel, so to speak, with the jacket. If you have any Q's regarding the SJ system, feel free to PM me. I own quite a few, both old and new.
     

    CMP70306

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    I haven't owned a carbon fiber barrel though I'd be tempted if they were cheaper. I don't believe they have an advantage over anything else and have some disadvantages for sure. It would strictly be because they look cool. A pencil barrel is going to weigh less and shoot a 3 shot group just as well as a Proof on a hunting rifle, but a pencil barrel looks like trash in a wide barrel channel, lol. A lightweight hunting gun is really the only somewhat plausible use for one and who TF is shooting enough rounds in a hunting situation that the slight amount of POI shift from a light contour steel barrel is going to be an issue?

    For me personally the CF has one distinct advantage over a pencil barrel, I can put a suppressor on it and save weight. Based on the Pacnor barrel calculator it takes a #6 contour to get the 0.75” muzzle diameter for 5/8x24 threads which equals a barrel weight of 4 pounds. If I get it fluted I may be able to shave 1/2 a pound but I’m still 3/4 of a pound heavier than the proof CF prefit which is 2.75 pounds.
     

    Supersubes

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    For me personally the CF has one distinct advantage over a pencil barrel, I can put a suppressor on it and save weight. Based on the Pacnor barrel calculator it takes a #6 contour to get the 0.75” muzzle diameter for 5/8x24 threads which equals a barrel weight of 4 pounds. If I get it fluted I may be able to shave 1/2 a pound but I’m still 3/4 of a pound heavier than the proof CF prefit which is 2.75 pounds.


    The barrel manufacturers will make whatever you want. If you want a #1 contour with a .725 muzzle, just ask.
     

    LilGucci

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    StraightJacket is the OG. Dracos has a loan agreement on the patent in order to make their barrels. The SJ system is a little different than the Dracos. First being overall diameter (dracos 30mm, SJ 1.25"), your barrel gets wrapped with SJ, Dracos sells you a barrel all done, because the Dracos is 30mm, a standard barrel nut slides right down over it all. With the SJ, your barrel nut will be fixed on to the barrel, so to speak, with the jacket. If you have any Q's regarding the SJ system, feel free to PM me. I own quite a few, both old and new.

    Then this is the route I'm going. I'm actually thinking of doing both Dracos (just to try it out) and SJ for everything else. I'll keep in touch when my next wave of builds starts in a couple of months.
     
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    hereinaz

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    And now bartlein makes a cf barrel, 200 bucks cheaper than a proof.........uh oh

    I don't think Bartlein is offering AR barrels. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/bartlein-barrels-introduces-carbon-fiber-barrels.4005065/

    And, when they do, so far looks like street price on the bolt barrels is the same:

    Proof $729 street: https://www.evolvedballistics.com/shop/proof-barrels/proof-research-bolt-action-carbon-fiber.html

    Bartlein $729 street: https://redhawkrifles.com/bartlein-284-7mm-caliber-carbon-fiber-5r-barrels/
     

    Johnny00K

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    I left that forum after it was too many examples of behavior and reviews that could only be explained by LRH guys being well paid for their reviews. Even video reviews with crap fundamentals & accuracy were explained away as nothing wrong with the Christensen rifle. They also quickly remove any negative posts about any forum sponsor and ban people. definitely not the place to speak freely or trust for reliable information.

    I know this is an old post, but LRH makes me furious. I learned TONS about precision reloading from that site back when real shooters and gunsmiths used the forum. Every time someone like Kirby Allen tried to teach us something some dipshit that has never shot long range would start arguing with him, when people tried to line the dipshit out Len Backus would tell everyone we were being too mean and it would not be tolerated, no bullying. The wealth of knowledge gathered in one place that could have been had is depressing. God I hate Len Backus.
     
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    Forward543

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    Since we are reviving old posts. I tested 6.5 Creed AR 10 builds in roughly 1-2 samples each. Christensen , Proof, BSF, and dracos. I worked up handloads for each, and did accuracy testing. The accuracy ran 1 Christensen, 2 (close behind) dracos, 3 BSF, 4 proof.

    The Christensen jammed up with 140's and had to be modified to run them. Once it was modified it shot phenomenally. It shot between .5 and .625

    The Dracos gas system sucks, but is usable. It shot closer to the .625 average.

    The BSF shot well when cold, but heated up very rapidly and went to shit. Then cooled off and shot well again.

    The proof was closer to .75-.90" in accuracy averages. I could not get it to shoot better. Maybe wrong bullets, maybe I got a lemon.

    All of them except the hot BSF were pretty easy to get to or under 1 moa. If doing again I would gladly shoot Christensen , Dracos, or Proof. I am not into barrels walking around.
     

    flyfisherman246

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    Why is proof the best? Because they say they are and not enough people are calling them out on their bullshit. I agree they used to produce a good shooting barrel, now they are all over the place. Seen multiple examples from buddies rifles, both proof drop in ar and bolt gun barrels, blanks spun up by other smiths, and personally multiple blanks I spun up myself. I have been very happy with the consistency of the bartlein CFW blanks. I’d be happy to share my experiences as well as buddies’ with proof barrels recently. Send me a pm if interested.
     
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    j741

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    I know this is an old post, but LRH makes me furious. I learned TONS about precision reloading from that site back when real shooters and gunsmiths used the forum. Every time someone like Kirby Allen tried to teach us something some dipshit that has never shot long range would start arguing with him, when people tried to line the dipshit out Len Backus would tell everyone we were being too mean and it would not be tolerated, no bullying. The wealth of knowledge gathered in one place that could have been had is depressing. God I hate Len Backus.
    While I agree with the statement about LRH as well, my post was replying to a point on LRO (Long Range Only). Too easy to have a typo of LRH when I meant LRO. But, in the end, neither are proving terribly valuable these days.
     

    mavrick10_2000

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    Frank and team (Bartlein) are currenty working on CF AR Barrels. Look into one of the 6mm ARC threads where I asked about it.
     

    jhutch3313

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    Since we are reviving old posts. I tested 6.5 Creed AR 10 builds in roughly 1-2 samples each. Christensen , Proof, BSF, and dracos. I worked up handloads for each, and did accuracy testing. The accuracy ran 1 Christensen, 2 (close behind) dracos, 3 BSF, 4 proof.

    The Christensen jammed up with 140's and had to be modified to run them. Once it was modified it shot phenomenally. It shot between .5 and .625

    The Dracos gas system sucks, but is usable. It shot closer to the .625 average.

    The BSF shot well when cold, but heated up very rapidly and went to shit. Then cooled off and shot well again.

    The proof was closer to .75-.90" in accuracy averages. I could not get it to shoot better. Maybe wrong bullets, maybe I got a lemon.

    All of them except the hot BSF were pretty easy to get to or under 1 moa. If doing again I would gladly shoot Christensen , Dracos, or Proof. I am not into barrels walking around.
    The gas system is not adjustable, I would suggest running an adjustable gas key on your BCG.
     
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    Mj30wilson900

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    I’ll post the article when I get home. A fella did a comparison of fluted SS barrel vs unfluted vs Proof CF.. the Proof CF barrel to my surprise did seem to cool down faster than the other 2.. HOWEVER, the Proof barrel got way hotter to begin with.. 180 degrees vs 150-something for the unfluted and 160-something for the fluted. After 10 minutes, the unfluted was down to like 105, the fluted was at like 125, and the CF wrapped barrel was like 127 degrees.. so to be sure, it appears Proof has somehow turned what’s usually an insulator and got it to dissipate heat quite well, but the steel liner is so light that it gets way hotter to begin with.
    I’d love to see the results of a test with just the steel liner without the CF wrapping vs the CF wrapped barrel, as well as a chrome moly barrel thrown in to see if the different steel has any effect..
    Odds are the proof was a bigger diameter which meant more surface area to cool to the air. They can get away with that because it is lighter.
     

    __JR__

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    I used to make the substrate steel barrels for place out of Minnesota, what was their name...Magnum Research, mountain eagle or summot..Funky stuff

    Later
     
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    __JR__

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    Odds are the proof was a bigger diameter which meant more surface area to cool to the air. They can get away with that because it is lighter.
    do you mean the steel was bigger diameter or the CF wrap? If the barrel gets hotter quicker, it's probably a lighter contour steel substrate, as the heat will escape from thinner wall more quickly than a thicker wall. Remeber it's hottest inside the bore, as you add wall thickness it slows down the rate the top of the barrel will heat up.
     

    Mj30wilson900

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    do you mean the steel was bigger diameter or the CF wrap? If the barrel gets hotter quicker, it's probably a lighter contour steel substrate, as the heat will escape from thinner wall more quickly than a thicker wall. Remeber it's hottest inside the bore, as you add wall thickness it slows down the rate the top of the barrel will heat up.
    with the carbon fiber wrap the diameter is larger than if they made the barrel out of solid steel.
     

    Mj30wilson900

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    Substrate matters, wrapped or unwrapped. Then the wrapping matters.

    later
    I was told the carbon fiber is wrapped specifically for the twist rate of the barrel. Is that true and why would it matter?
     

    __JR__

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    I was told the carbon fiber is wrapped specifically for the twist rate of the barrel. Is that true and why would it matter?
    If Proof told you they wrapped specifically for twist rate, thats one thing. Otherwise I'd take being told with a grain of salt. Would it matter? They do have some equipment, but honestly I have not enough data to support 'mattering'.

    later
     

    twentyeggs

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    Since we are reviving old posts. I tested 6.5 Creed AR 10 builds in roughly 1-2 samples each. Christensen , Proof, BSF, and dracos. I worked up handloads for each, and did accuracy testing. The accuracy ran 1 Christensen, 2 (close behind) dracos, 3 BSF, 4 proof.

    The Christensen jammed up with 140's and had to be modified to run them. Once it was modified it shot phenomenally. It shot between .5 and .625

    The Dracos gas system sucks, but is usable. It shot closer to the .625 average.

    The BSF shot well when cold, but heated up very rapidly and went to shit. Then cooled off and shot well again.

    The proof was closer to .75-.90" in accuracy averages. I could not get it to shoot better. Maybe wrong bullets, maybe I got a lemon.

    All of them except the hot BSF were pretty easy to get to or under 1 moa. If doing again I would gladly shoot Christensen , Dracos, or Proof. I am not into barrels walking around.

    This is exactly what I would/was expecting from BSF. Yeah it’s made to cool down quickly, but your essentially shooting with the mass of a turned down barrel. That’s gotta heat up rapidly compared to any other barrel. Not ideal for anyone other than maybe a sniper posted up in Iraq, only taking a couple shots at a time.
     

    HolyCity73

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    This is exactly what I would/was expecting from BSF. Yeah it’s made to cool down quickly, but your essentially shooting with the mass of a turned down barrel. That’s gotta heat up rapidly compared to any other barrel. Not ideal for anyone other than maybe a sniper posted up in Iraq, only taking a couple shots at a time.

    My first BSF Grendel was a lemon. It had circular vents and was replaced by the factory with the current slotted vents. It shot great for the first few trips. I agree that it heats up quickly and begins to open up.
    That barrel, with load dev, could be a real shooter. It is now on a Pig hunting platform.
    I have a SS Odin that consistently prints .75” groups. I guess that’s ok, but my Wilson .556 is a one hole gun.
    To each his own. If the weight savings are important, buy carbon. If accuracy is paramount, spend the money on a gunsmith turned, precision AR barrel.
    As with everything firearm related, quality and performance cost money. A lot of it.

    Ps, I had a DPMS style AR10 with a carbon proof barrel at 18”. It never shot well. Maybe .5” groups at best with 168g SMK. I was ashamed to be seen in public with it. Oh the humanity...
     
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    twentyeggs

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    My first BSF Grendel was a lemon. It had circular vents and was replaced by the factory with the current slotted vents. It shot great for the first few trips. I agree that it heats up quickly and begins to open up.
    That barrel, with load dev, could be a real shooter. It is now on a Pig hunting platform.
    I have a SS Odin that consistently prints .75” groups. I guess that’s ok, but my Wilson .556 is a one hole gun.
    To each his own. If the weight savings are important, buy carbon. If accuracy is paramount, spend the money on a gunsmith turned, precision AR barrel.
    As with everything firearm related, quality and performance cost money. A lot of it.

    Ps, I had a DPMS style AR10 with a carbon proof barrel at 18”. It never shot well. Maybe .5” groups at best with 168g SMK. I was ashamed to be seen in public with it. Oh the humanity...

    what do you mean a gunsmith turned precision barrel? like buying a blank and having your own gunsmith rifle and chamber it?

    also what’s wrong with a sub moa large frame AR? lol 0.5” is usually what people aim for.
     

    HolyCity73

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    what do you mean a gunsmith turned precision barrel? like buying a blank and having your own gunsmith rifle and chamber it?

    also what’s wrong with a sub moa large frame AR? lol 0.5” is usually what people aim for.

    That’s exactly what I mean. People like to pretend that just because it’s an AR, the barrel should be a drop-in ready Sniper system. A gunsmith worth their salt can still chamber, thread, fit an extension and true, mount and assemble a precision upper. All while using a contoured blank. It may be more expensive, but I’ve seen the results. Precision rifle building isn’t just for bolt guns. More expensive? You betcha. But hey, you can’t have champagne tastes with a cocoa cola budget.

    My comment about my AR10 was complete sarcasm, hence the snark about “not showing my face in public and oh the humanity...”
    That rifle was fantastic.
     
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    Burdy

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    My first BSF Grendel was a lemon. It had circular vents and was replaced by the factory with the current slotted vents. It shot great for the first few trips. I agree that it heats up quickly and begins to open up.
    That barrel, with load dev, could be a real shooter. It is now on a Pig hunting platform.
    I have a SS Odin that consistently prints .75” groups. I guess that’s ok, but my Wilson .556 is a one hole gun.
    To each his own. If the weight savings are important, buy carbon. If accuracy is paramount, spend the money on a gunsmith turned, precision AR barrel.
    As with everything firearm related, quality and performance cost money. A lot of it.

    Ps, I had a DPMS style AR10 with a carbon proof barrel at 18”. It never shot well. Maybe .5” groups at best with 168g SMK. I was ashamed to be seen in public with it. Oh the humanity...
    So if you want a cold bore walk around hunting AR where weight is paramount, it looks like the BSF is probably the best option.
     

    Jigstick

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    I’ve had a few Proof barrels with horrible runout. So bad they couldn’t be chambered. Luckily they took care of me and replaced them at no charge.
     

    TonyTheTiger

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    @HolyCity73 you had me thinking it was a garbage barrel or something. I know what you mean about guns being too light. It's one thing if you carry them all day to shoot them once, another thing entirely if you like shooting them all day.
     
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    HolyCity73

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    @HolyCity73 you had me thinking it was a garbage barrel or something. I know what you mean about guns being too light. It's one thing if you carry them all day to shoot them once, another thing entirely if you like shooting them all day.
    Exactly! I have hunted with my other bsf and it was great On Pigs.
    Our Sounders usually vanish into the woods by the second shot and we are generally stationary so a really light AR is more of a novelty. The current BSF has only been on a bench with an ASR on it.
    I will probably sell it in the upper minus the bcg and hand guard.
    I won’t be needing it.
     
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    TonyTheTiger

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    Yeah, I built a sub 5lb AR for my eldest son when he was 9 years old and scrawny. He could hold it and shoot it well but it was the most unpleasant AR I've ever shot. A few years of eating his weaties later and we keep buying heavier parts for it and it's a lot nicer to use.