Rifle Scopes Why don't S&B have a fully illuminated P4 reticles?

[AussieShooter]

Does anybody know why S&B don't make there P4 fully illuminated?

I think the technology is there to have the tradional illumination aswell as full illumination with both red and green.

Same goes for the MSR.

When shooting in lowlight the full illumination defiantly is benificial.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Does anybody know why S&B don't make there P4 fully illuminated?

I think the technology is there to have the tradional illumination aswell as full illumination with both red and green.

Same goes for the MSR.

When shooting in lowlight the full illumination defiantly is benificial.

I disagree. You do not need a fully illuminated reticle. I had a Nightforce and it's NP-2R reticle had full illumination. It was just too much. I would never need to use that much reticle at night.

And when I shot with my MSR reticle at low light I needed VERY little illumination. I had the reticle turned way down because with it on high, I could not see the target due to the glare and brightness of the reticle, such were my eyes focused on. My eyes adjusted to the reticle brightness, so lowering the brightness gave me better target acuity. And really, are you going to be able to range a target at night accurately, or shoot at movers at night? From a tactical perspective, would a target be running around at night to require you to impose a lead? As I am not a sniper, I would not know.

Can any actual snipers chime in and comment? I would like to hear their viewpoints.

 

[matt2143]

After seeing the actual erector housings and how they are put together. They could put a picture of Mickey mouse in there and illuminate the whole thing or just his ears. The illumination design is purely that, by design. Honestly the P4F is old tech, they likely will never change it, rather they just design new reticles.

 

[SFree]

They should change the design, that way they could charge an extra $1500...

 

[AussieShooter]

Here is why the option would satisfy my requirements:

I like to shoot steel during the day (hence no illumination required) and at night I go spotlight shooting for vermin (out to 500 meters).

For the night time vermin shooting I like to use hold overs after laser range finding it rather than trying to use click values.

As for the moving targets at night you can bet your ass they like to move when shot at so leads are required for follow up shots.

If I am going to spend between 5 and 7 k you would expect an optic to have complete stadia illumination especially as another high end scope manufacture (NF MLR) does for less or even Hensoldt range.

This addition would bring there reticles up to par with there competitors. I don't know how much they spend on functionality R&D of the mechanics of the optic but best practice and keeping the competitive edge would dictate such an addition.

Just my thoughts.

 

[matt2143]

This discussion is only about the p4f reticle.

Their other reticles like the H2CMR have illumination all the way out to 5 mils in every direction.

 

[Graham]

You don't want full illumination. You don't need to see the entire reticle. Illumination is designed to work with night vision.

Have you ever seen a fully-lit Horus? It looks like the beachfront at Blackpool on a Saturday night.

 

[AussieShooter]

I understand about the Horus and that model does nothing for me as when used for long range steel they take up too much of the FOV and doesn't allow for long distance ranging. Too much of the reticle takes up the scope for my liking.

I recently returned the 5-25x56 with MSR and waiting on the 3-27 to come out with the MSR.

I use the NF running on the 308 ATM that uses the MLR so I'm happy with something similar to the P4.

I would just prefer a finer increment that is illuminated without having to run a thermal or NV.

I'm guessing I'm an outlier wanting these options.

 

[Graham]

Not many people are shooting movers at night with an illuminated reticle.

 

[Rob01]

Have done it a few times at matches with a P4F and wished I had more illumination for the holds but it's not done a lot at matches. If you want or need full illumination in an S&B get an H2CMR.

 

[AussieShooter]

I was wondering why S&B didn't currently offer this option as paying 7k for an optic or even 4k is a lot of coin.

I wanted to know if anyone knew the reasons why it wasn't done as S&B have a brand new line and I don't understand why they would not fully optimise all there reticles.

For that sort of money I am after an optic that does what I want.

The H2CMR doesn't have fine enough increments on the vertical stadia.

I could do another build and optic purchase for the same amount so was just wondering if anyone else had the same question or answers?

If there is no demand then I understand why. If someone else had the same question answered then I was hoping for them to pass it along.

If S&B PMII line is only going to listen to the police and military demands without optimisation to also suit the general public then I'll have to look at another optic.

 

[The_FNG]

Well military and law enforcement are their main customers, i guess a roo shooter in Australia doesn't count, you should totally boycott, that'll show 'em

 

[AussieShooter]

The introduction of a submil illuminated reticle or even better MSR would cater for all markets (Civilian / Military & LE) increasing there sales with minimum effort to there line.

Larger market share, adaptation of current tech for the same product keeping ahead of there competitors and continue to lead the market.

Currently the top of the line optics (S&B and Hensholdt) only have the optic quality portion that has a leg over there competitors.

The NF BEAST has made some major improvements with there R&D leading in reticle design types and functionality of the lever system I however like European optic lenses.

Time will tell whether they adopt a general approach to improving there reticles.

As for your presumption that I'm a roo shooter you'd be wrong. I shoot everything from rabbits and foxes to camels donkies and scrub bull.

The new build will be for the long range shooting of the larger game hence me wanting a do all optic for long range steel and animals.

 

[Rob01]

The H2CMR doesn't have fine enough increments on the vertical stadia.

Yes it does. It has the same .5 mil marks as the P4F. Actually between the 2 and 3 mil marks it's broken down to .1 mil.

H2CMR


P4F

 

[AussieShooter]

Nice pictures Rob and nice target setup but I really should have specified the MSR.

When I said similar to the P4 I meant the orthogonal stadia (hence not like the Horus) but with smaller increments. Sorry I should have been more descriptive.

If the H2CMR had the same vertical values as the horizontal values that would be ideal.

 

[Rob01]

So you want smaller increments than the MSR, P4F or H2CMR? All only have .5 mil marks on the vertical. The MSR has the "L" bracket broken to .1 mil in the lower left quadrant but it's not used for shot holds. The H2CMR has the .1 mil marks on the vertical between 2 and 3 mils for any ranging. The H2CMR with the round dots make using for holds more accurate as you can break the mil down easier.

 

[Shortcut]

View attachment 24576You sould have a look at the U.S. Optics 5-25x58 where I particularly enjoy their GAP-MIL reticle! U.S. Optics has probably the best illumination in the world today and unlike many of the European brands they understood the importance of having the whole reticle illuminated. The cool thing about it is that it's perfectly bright during the day and very low during the night, so regardles of you using it in a very sunny Irak climate och during the night the illumination will perform perfectly. It does not bleed anything, it doesn't blind you but it's utterly impecable.

 

[Lowlight]

The NF BEAST is fully illuminated with the new "smart" digi-illum...

You can set it to different power settings and return directly to that setting. The reticle is fully illuminated, and it changes color. You have a choice between red & green.

The only way you used to get full illumination with the S&B was the Premier XL version. I called the "XL" extra lights, very XR which was extra reticle.

Premier illuminated more of the reticle in the S*B line.

 

[Rob01]

The USO GAP mil reticle is a good reticle. Used it years ago but the problem wasn't the reticle as much as it was the rest of the scope. Heard USOs got better. Lets hope.

 

[Shortcut]

The USO I use are the last generation and these are nothing alike the old USO. I was not particularly happy with the old models. The last generation however will compete on almost the same level as anything else in the top range of the market and their illuminated reticles are fantastic.

 

[AussieShooter]

So you want smaller increments than the MSR, P4F or H2CMR? All only have .5 mil marks on the vertical. The MSR has the "L" bracket broken to .1 mil in the lower left quadrant but it's not used for shot holds. The H2CMR has the .1 mil marks on the vertical between 2 and 3 mils for any ranging. The H2CMR with the round dots make using for holds more accurate as you can break the mil down easier.

The more I look at the H2CMR the more I'm liking it. Good for ranging but not long range holds however.

If I could make my own reticle I would have the P4 fine with .1 MRad increments then at the .5 have a larger hash throughout the stadia.

As I don't see this happening the next improvement would be for the MSR to be illuminated as it has the fine increments used to range at low light conditions but without the benefit of longer range holds. This would pretty much equal the functionality of the H2CMR.

My first preference would allow for versatility as it would allow for both holds and more precise ranging at distance.

Further more for the tactical guys that don't need / want the extra 0.1 reticle holds to be illuminated the optic can be set up to cancel the .1 illumination increment option by simply holding the power button allowing for only 0.5 increments.

Just an idea but it would cater for all shooters in all situations. I.E. The hunting, tactical and military community.

 

[AussieShooter]

I have had several NF's and I like them and I am after a optic with lots of internal elevation and more zoom.

The BEAST has almost the same internal adjustment but not the zoom. I know Japanese optics are good but from my experience in my industry not as good as Zeiss or Leica.

If the MLR 2.0 had its inverted T ranging reticle with an illumination option and without all the gaps in the main stadia the reticle would suffice.

I also like the 10 year warranty.

If S&B or Hensoldt don't have anything that impressed me at shot then I will see if NF has something with more zoom. I will then have to try somewhere that has both so I can compare side by side.

I absolutely love the idea of NFs digilume. They obviously have a finger on the pulse of the shooting community.