Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

[dbooksta]

Tungsten is 70% denser than lead. Why aren't there any small-caliber tungsten core bullets on the market?

I know there's the armor-piercing restrictions, but that doesn't preclude frangible tungsten powders or cores that aren't shaped for penetration.

The closest I've seen are:
1. Barnes' MRX, which puts a tungsten alloy cylinder in the rear of their copper bullet to get the same SD and BC as Sierra MatchKings of the same weight.
2. Powder cores containing tungsten. But I tested the density on ExtremeShock's heaviest .223 and found it only measuring 11.90g/cc. In contrast pure lead is 11.34g/cc under ST&P, and Sierra MatchKings are about 10.6. (Tungsten is over 19g/cc.)

If you replaced an SMK with a core containing significant tungsten we'd be talking about 250gr .30" bullets that would stabilize out of a 1:10 twist. Or we could see 300gr+ round-noses that would stabilize at subsonic speeds.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Tungsten is approx. 20 times more expensive than Lead by weight.

 

[USMCj]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

There were, at one time. Hevi-Shot made some lead free 70 grain .223 bullets that were about the same size as 55 grainers. They no longer make it, but I still have a box and a half

 

[Jer]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

I think it's cost prohibitive.

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Tungsten is difficult to work, but the raw material isn't expensive. Current prices for bulk metals used in ammo:

Antimony: $6600/ton
Copper: $5600/ton
Lead: $43/ton
Tungsten: $177/ton

So tungsten is only 4 times the price of lead by weight. And note that even with copper over 100 times the price of lead by weight there are plenty of solid copper bullets on the market!

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Correction</span></span>: The bulk tungsten I found a price for is actually ammonium paratungstate (APT). Looks like refined tungsten is in fact quite a bit more expensive (though I don't see why, since reducing APT is just a matter of heating): like $20/pound, or $40,000/ton!

 

[BryanLitz]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

It's very difficult to <span style="font-style: italic">machine</span> tungsten (compared to swaging lead).

The challenge of <span style="font-style: italic">compressing</span> powdered tungsten is insuring that the resulting core is balanced which is necessary for precision.

DRT makes powdered tungsten core bullets, but their greatest advantage is frangibility, not precision:
http://www.drtammo.com/

On paper, the ballistic advantages of the high density material are very compelling. However, the real world intrudes with challenges that have proven to be show stoppers for precision applications so far.

Lead is hard to beat all around for price, ease of forming, balance, and performance on impact.

-Bryan

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Interesting -- thanks Bryan. I guess that explains why tungsten isn't being used to boost ballistics for long-range shooting.

But it does leave the niche of subsonic shooting, where I assume small core imbalances don't make as much of a difference because subsonic is most interesting for tactical and relatively short-range applications (i.e., under 300 yards).

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

I know a couple of guys that used to work at a place in Oak Ridge, TN that made Tugnsten carbide core bullets & loaded ammo for "government agencies". The bullets alone for 30 cal are about $1.50 each. If you see something in a plain white pasteboard box marked "Powell River Labs". That would be the place.

 

[sinister]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Bubba Bullets from Powell River Laboratories (PRL) near Oak Ridge were some damn fine sintered tungsten frangible bullets (these are the new DRT bullets). Very accurate at long range but expensive as heck, and if your target is behind metal, brick, concrete, or something else hard the bullets are designed to come apart.

 

[MtGoat]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

From what I have read the PRL bullets were designed to penetrate a hard surface and come apart in soft targets. It apparently has to do with the jacket "drilling through" the target with little impact on rotational velocity but in soft tissue the rotation is disrupted to a greater extent and the bullets come apart rapidly. I spoke with someone that has a few and he indicated that the bullets are devistating on coyotes (he had no experience with the hard target aspect of the bullets).

Has anyone shot the DRT bullets enough to find out if they are as accurate as they have been portrayed. It appears the 80 gr bullets are rather accurate at distance (if you can believe the Mandrel sisters

) http://drtammo.com/promotional-dvd.html

Pat

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Lead's Moh's hardness is 1.5. Tungsten's is 7.5. Bullet friction plays a very minor role in throat erosion with lead bullets but I suspect switching to tungsten would change that.

Then there's the fact that PRC produces 80% of the world's tungsten.

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

No way anyone's shooting exposed solid tungsten through a barrel; it would shred the rifling.

My original inquiry was about tungsten-core bullets, which are still copper jacketed.

Also, China doesn't mind exporting tungsten. I found one Chinese supplier willing to produce .3"-diameter solid tungsten slugs suitable for copper swaging at about $1.10/piece in bulk quantities.

 

[1911jerry]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Tungstun is very brittle, it may crumble in the barrel if it was not jacketed.

Jerry

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Not a metalurgist but I'd think that you'd either need a thin layer of lead under the copper jacket or make a thick copper jacket over precission sized tungsten. The advantage to a copper jacketed lead bullet is the lead "sizes" in the bore to the point that a .311 bullet can go down a .308 bore. A tunsten slug would either lodge in the bore, BOOM. Or be the same as pulling a smooth rifling broach down the bore.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911Jerry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tungstun is very brittle, it may crumble in the barrel if it was not jacketed.</div></div>

I used to have some Tungsten bullets (AP) that would shed their jackets upon impact with big rocks, and they still have the machining marks with no apreciable damage afterwards. This does not sound brittle to me.

 

[MtGoat]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

In looking at DRT's ballistics info they have a 308 bullet moving 140 fps faster then a 30-06 using 4.9grs of powder less. I realise that the 308 is efficient but intuatively this seems wrong (the same bullet, 175gr using the same powder H4895). They also do not provide the BC for the 223 bullets...interesting.

Pat

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Just for clarification, since DRT's bullets keep coming up: Those are powder-core bullets, roughly as dense as lead. They are designed and marketed for explosive terminal effect, not increased BC.

 

[MtGoat]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbooksta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just for clarification, since DRT's bullets keep coming up: Those are powder-core bullets, roughly as dense as lead. They are designed and marketed for explosive terminal effect, not increased BC. </div></div>

They indicated that their 87gr bullets fit in a standard AR magazine and lead me to believe that they were similar in size to 77gr bullets which would mean that they have a heavier core (tungsten powder core which would be heavier than a lead powder core but solid lead core????). I don't have any of the 87gr bullets and I am trying to get info on their 79gr bullets and the practicality of loading them up for a standard AR for coyiote hunting. I am not looking to stuff them waaaay down the case or have to single load the loaded rounds. I have yet to get any dimensional data on the bullets. Does anyone have practical experience with the 79gr DRT bullets?

Thanks
Pat

 

[Wicked Weapons]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

I don't know very much about bullet construction or manufacture, so please refrain from bashing me if I'm off base. I have at least two hundred pounds of used-up 1/4" diameter carbide cutters in my shop. I've often wondered if a chopped off .250" diameter tungsten carbide end/ball mill shank would work as a 30cal bullet core? Would it be possible to swage a closed base thick walled jacket around a straight cylindrical core (that won't compress or form) and still have an acceptable bullet nose shape? How about forming the bullet with a 'composite' core using mostly tungsten carbide and some extruded lead wire just in the nose section?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wicked Weapons</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know very much about bullet construction or manufacture, so please refrain from bashing me if I'm off base. I have at least two hundred pounds of used-up 1/4" diameter carbide cutters in my shop. I've often wondered if a chopped off .250" diameter tungsten carbide end/ball mill shank would work as a 30cal bullet core? Would it be possible to swage a closed base thick walled jacket around a straight cylindrical core (that won't compress or form) and still have an acceptable bullet nose shape? How about forming the bullet with a 'composite' core using mostly tungsten carbide and some extruded lead wire just in the nose section?

</div></div>
Yes it would work. It does not need to be sharp as a needle of anything. I use a couple of my .50 rounds that I have cut the jacket off, and use them as center punches. They are hard as hell! As said before the machining is just about impossible. Mil surplus is the only way to go as they are the only ones that can afford the equipment to make it.

 

[nobearsyet]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

Keep in mind that tungsten is significantly stronger than steel and as such may be considered an armor piercing bullet. I don't think the ones available now have enough tungsten to add a significant amount of weight or cause them to punch metal like an AP round would.

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

IANAL but tungsten cores machined to a point would almost certainly qualify as armor piercing and be subject to existing restrictions on manufacture. However bullets with tungsten powder cores or solid-slug cores (i.e., a flat-faced tungsten cylinder) should not pose a risk of such classification or regulation.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

AP restriction is on pistol ammo only. The only other restrictions are on the various forms of incendiary (forest fire starters

) in Kalifornia and possibly other crappy states. Tungsten does add weight to the projectile. A standard ball M33 is similar in size to AP and is about 50 grains heavier.

 

[totenkopf]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

no the big boys, Federal ATK, Remington etc are holding tungsten back...that is until they can get control of the that market. They all have some version. They dont want anythinng messing up their lead market.

 

[totenkopf]

Re: Why no high-density tungsten bullets?

They are not machined but pressed powder cores...the best flying bullets you can own...they hit hard and all have a higher respective ballistic coefficient!!! In my mind worth the cost.

 

[LLANERO]

double tap

 

[LLANERO]

Elk Mountain Shooters Supply had 300gr .30 cal bullets that were dimensionally identical to their 220gr lead counterparts. They did this by making the rear half of the core out of tungsten. But we're not in the '80s anymore.

 

[Kickin45]

Post was 10yrs ago people lol

 

[brianf]

welcome to the new hide

next youll see Remington pss vs robar in 308 threads popping up again like its 1995