I JUST RECIVED WIN 70 NATIONAL MATCH OFF GUNSINTERNATIONAL WHEN I BOUGHT THE GUN I ASKED THE GENTLEMAN IF IT WAS DRILLED FOR UNERTAL SCOPE BLOCKS HE SAID YES, THE GUN HAS BLOCKS IN THE THE REAR THAT LOOKED LIKE UNERTAL BLOCKS BUT WERE LARGER WITH THE REAR COVERING THE CLIP SLOT. THEIR ARE 2 SCREW HOLES IN FRONT OF THE FRONT SIGHT CUTOUT THAT MEASURE 1 3/4 IN APART CAN ANYONE HELP ME WITH THIS I WILL TRY TO POST SOME PICS BUT HAVE NEVER POSTED ANY. ALSO DOES WINCHESTER ACHIVE SERIAL NUMBERS WHERE I CAN CHECK TO SEE IF ITS REALLY A NATIONAL MATCH. ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRICATED AS I HAVE A 3 DAY INSPECTION.
- Thread starter afv338
- Start date
Pictures would help.
Winchester wont be of any help, it's only a name anymore. The Winchester that built your rifle ceased to exist in 1963.
The clip slot sounds promising but the front sight cut could be a deal breaker.
IIRC, national match barrels were the same as a standard hunting rifle with integral
ramp front sights.
What is the barrel profile( i.e. standard, medium or heavy), length and chambering?
What stock configuration? Slim checkered hunting style or target style with straight comb and beaver tail forend?
Winchester wont be of any help, it's only a name anymore. The Winchester that built your rifle ceased to exist in 1963.
The clip slot sounds promising but the front sight cut could be a deal breaker.
IIRC, national match barrels were the same as a standard hunting rifle with integral
ramp front sights.
What is the barrel profile( i.e. standard, medium or heavy), length and chambering?
What stock configuration? Slim checkered hunting style or target style with straight comb and beaver tail forend?
THIS RIFLE HAS THE TARGET STOCK AND SPORTER BARREL PROFILE IT DOES HAVE THE FRONT DOVTAIL CUT AND AND FILLED IN WITH A BLOCK. THE CAL IS 3006 GOV. I HAVE A MODEL 70 TARGET 220 SWIFT WITH A UNERTAL I WAS LOOKING AT THE FRONT BLOCK ON IT AND IT IS LONGER MAYBE THE SAME AS THE HOLES I DISCRIBED I ALSO HAVE A 10X UNERTAL IN THE WOOD BOX I WANTED TO PUT ON IT I LOOKED AT A OREGON KIMBER TARGET AND THE BLOCKS WERE SHORTER THAT THREW ME OFF AND I STARTED TO THINK I GOT FUCKED.
From what little I can see it looks to be a NM but but that's all I can tell you.
I'd take it out of the stock and see if the barrel date matches the date of manufacture, that the stake marks line up and theres no obvious signs the barrel had been removed from the reciever. If that all checks out it's most likely legit.
I'd take it out of the stock and see if the barrel date matches the date of manufacture, that the stake marks line up and theres no obvious signs the barrel had been removed from the reciever. If that all checks out it's most likely legit.
Not from the pictures, no. If theres no numbers/letters stamped on the underside I'd need to have them in my hands to take measurements. Theres quite a few different block heights/types that were used on M70's.
They're trying to tell you not to type you're entire posts in all CAPS. They may mysteriously disappear if you continue to do so.
I guess you don't know much about etiquette........because the hints went ignored.
So here goes: it's very rude to type in all capitals. It's like shouting.
NOW CARRY ON.
Sorry about the caps I can under stand when I talked to the gentleman that I bought the rifle from he said the front and rear are Lyman but as you can see the parts are missing does any one know where I can get parts for them and Unertal blocks. I really don't under stand what period correct scope could have been on it with those blocks.
Yes. But others make similar. I bought some off Ebay. Winchester made blocks will have a pin hole on one side for A5 scope mounts.
If you go to www.Pre64.win likely you will find any spares you desire.
If clip slot is factory likely your rifle is NM because I'm pretty certain they stopped that practice on regular guns at some point.
The only M70's that were ever clip slotted were, to my knowledge, the NM's, Target and Bullguns chambered in 30-06 only.
As far as period correct scopes go Lyman, Unertl, J.W. Fecker, Winchester and a couple more names I cant remember right now were popular in those days and most all made their own scope blocks as well.
There were 3 different styles, Winchester blocks.had pin holes on the left side for their proprietary A5 mounts like PM says, standard Lyman, Fecker and Unertl had "eyebrows" on the right side that the thumb screws on the rings engaged and there was the POSA type that instead of eyebrows had deeper semi circular cuts on top of the block.
Another good source for Unertly type scope blocks is www.steveearlproducts.com
As far as period correct scopes go Lyman, Unertl, J.W. Fecker, Winchester and a couple more names I cant remember right now were popular in those days and most all made their own scope blocks as well.
There were 3 different styles, Winchester blocks.had pin holes on the left side for their proprietary A5 mounts like PM says, standard Lyman, Fecker and Unertl had "eyebrows" on the right side that the thumb screws on the rings engaged and there was the POSA type that instead of eyebrows had deeper semi circular cuts on top of the block.
Another good source for Unertly type scope blocks is www.steveearlproducts.com
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That's a legitimate nm. And with the light barrel, reasonably rare in the condition pictured. The rifle is correctly drilled for a Unertl. In front of the sight block and the front of the receiver.
The 'what appear to be Lyman bases' on it are "owner preference" over the longer unertl RTB. It could have been a Winchester A5 or similar short scope.
It has the iron site rear base still on it. A side pic will tell us if it's a Lyman 48 base.
Be nice to see the front end...
The 'what appear to be Lyman bases' on it are "owner preference" over the longer unertl RTB. It could have been a Winchester A5 or similar short scope.
It has the iron site rear base still on it. A side pic will tell us if it's a Lyman 48 base.
Be nice to see the front end...
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And these are pictures of the type TUBE target sight that mounted on the 'mounts you have on the 70'....
I know most of the pre-war rifles were clip slotted as scopes were not yet prevalent however I do not recall exactly what year it was reduced to only the match rifles being slotted. I’ll have to check the Rifleman’s Rifle for reference.
Interesting thread...
I saw the barrel profile and it looked more like a Supergrade barrel or featherweight...
Wouldn’t the whole purpose of a national match be defeated using such a light barrel? Or would it have been a custom order... someone who wanted the light barrel?
Interesting Winchester!
Sirhr
If I remember correctly the National Match rifle was made to meet weight restrictions while still using the heavier marksman stock for positional sling shooting. Essentially Winchester offered their target rifles with the marksman stock and 3 different barrels, the lightweight 24” National Match, the medium weight 24” Target and the heavy 28” Bull Gun.
The ramp also has a lower profile than a standard front sight ramp.
Genuine unmessed with factory M70 NM's are rare, many now wear standard sporter barrels that were used to replace shot out factory barrels.
Most common are the fakes built up from parts that are fairly easy to come by still.
Pre wars seem to be clip slotted as a rule. I wont say all but the ones I see seem to have that feature.
The Model 70 was a Springfield 03 built by a company concerned with making a profit as opposed to a givernment armory that could shovel tax payer dollars into the furnace.
Not totally shitting on the armory system they seems to put people in charge that tried to pinch the pennies when they could and when it came to gear....they might have got a bit out of hand though when it came to furnishing their govt provided houses though.
Order up a Douglas Premium in one of the Winchester NM profiles and restore that bad boy.
You will be making one hole groups.
I am waiting on the worlds longest M70 build now - ongoing since I think 2017. My patience is holding but getting thin.
You might source a Lyman WH slide on Ebay for your receiver sight.
Look for WH rather than WJS to account for the fat barrel. WJS will work for most iron sight distances though.
Ive been lucky there. I initially found a WJS in great shape for my M70 than found a WH that should be installed when (if) my gun ever comes back.
I got real lucky and was the only bidder on a W slide blank and got it for less than $100. When I run my scope I will be able to slip the slide blank in the rear sight block and keep crap out of the dovetail - great accessory.
@sirhrmechanic
@Lange Carabine
@pmclaine
The give away on "barrel" (even though it could be a replacement), is how well it fits the unaltered stock channel. The pic is clear enough to tell that.
Changing the barrel out to a Douglas bull would require altering the stock channel and destroy any collector value. I would not do that if it were mine.
However, if Douglas would do the original profile, I would be sorely tempted.... yes...
VR
jw
To the OP, mounting the unertl will be a challenge, on the nm barrel contour. Easy enough to remove the tube sight mounts off the receiver. And easy enough to find the correct front receiver mount for unertl. Champions Choice , lavergne Tn still sells them.
Finding the higher tapered front mount that goes on the barrel will be harder. Somebody with Rule's book can find the correct sight nomenclature or a 48/49/50 Shooters Bible would have it. Then finding one.........
Somewhere in my stash of stuff is a 56 Shooters Bible and it was invaluable finding correct parts. However, two divorces back, it's well hidden......
Best to you.
@Lange Carabine
@pmclaine
The give away on "barrel" (even though it could be a replacement), is how well it fits the unaltered stock channel. The pic is clear enough to tell that.
Changing the barrel out to a Douglas bull would require altering the stock channel and destroy any collector value. I would not do that if it were mine.
However, if Douglas would do the original profile, I would be sorely tempted.... yes...
VR
jw
To the OP, mounting the unertl will be a challenge, on the nm barrel contour. Easy enough to remove the tube sight mounts off the receiver. And easy enough to find the correct front receiver mount for unertl. Champions Choice , lavergne Tn still sells them.
Finding the higher tapered front mount that goes on the barrel will be harder. Somebody with Rule's book can find the correct sight nomenclature or a 48/49/50 Shooters Bible would have it. Then finding one.........
Somewhere in my stash of stuff is a 56 Shooters Bible and it was invaluable finding correct parts. However, two divorces back, it's well hidden......
Best to you.
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I just picked up a Pre-War Model 70 with a Redfield sight set, Douglas barrel and aftermarket stock for $700 from an estate sale on gunbroker. The guy selling it didn’t know much about it but also found and included the original barrel so I’ll be able to see what the original configuration was. Even if it needs rebarreling I still got a complete pre-war action for $700 so I’ll count that as a win.
Sir,
I did not read all the post. I will add this. Your rifle is a pre-64 NM mod 70. Winchester never maintained records of it's model 70's or most other rifles after the early 1900's. The holes in front of the sight boss are for a Unertl base but unfortunately not original. A special sight boss Unertl type site base was made so no holes needed to be drilled. Also it allows for correct spacing on the bases to get .25 MOA out of the Unertl adjustments. Also, the rear mount should go on the receiver ring, not the bridge. Again this for correct positioning and spacing.
I have any parts you need for bases, sights etc. PM in interested.
I did not read all the post. I will add this. Your rifle is a pre-64 NM mod 70. Winchester never maintained records of it's model 70's or most other rifles after the early 1900's. The holes in front of the sight boss are for a Unertl base but unfortunately not original. A special sight boss Unertl type site base was made so no holes needed to be drilled. Also it allows for correct spacing on the bases to get .25 MOA out of the Unertl adjustments. Also, the rear mount should go on the receiver ring, not the bridge. Again this for correct positioning and spacing.
I have any parts you need for bases, sights etc. PM in interested.
The give away on "barrel" (even though it could be a replacement), is how well it fits the unaltered stock channel. The pic is clear enough to tell that.
Changing the barrel out to a Douglas bull would require altering the stock channel and destroy any collector value. I would not do that if it were mine.
However, if Douglas would do the original profile, I would be sorely tempted.... yes...
IMO there is no collector value as the original barrel has been replaced. So if you want to replace the barrel with the a Douglas go for it. I can make a National Match as I have a standard 30/06 barrel and put it in a marksman stock if I wanted, but that does not make it a authentic Winchester model 70 National Match.
Changing the barrel out to a Douglas bull would require altering the stock channel and destroy any collector value. I would not do that if it were mine.
However, if Douglas would do the original profile, I would be sorely tempted.... yes...
IMO there is no collector value as the original barrel has been replaced. So if you want to replace the barrel with the a Douglas go for it. I can make a National Match as I have a standard 30/06 barrel and put it in a marksman stock if I wanted, but that does not make it a authentic Winchester model 70 National Match.
I would not open that barrel channel. It is an original NM stock. Has value. More so if not glass bedded or pad.
The above were all clip slotted. In addition all prior to 66,350 in any caliber except 300 H &H and 375 H&H were also clip slotted. Even 22 Hornets were clip slotted.
Transition guns could be had either way. After that NM, target and standard caliber bull guns were clip slotted. Even 220 Swift’s, .243’s etc. I had a post war 22 Hornet target that was clip slotted. Basically, there are a number of one off’s or scarce variations.
The H&H chamberings were cut away in the area of the clip slots.
The 70 series 1.75" scope blocks from Steve Earle should fit the barrel. Height will also be determined by the block you put on the front bridge of the receiver. Here's a link to the blocks:
http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html
Here's a pic of what your rifle will look like with a Unertl:
You're correct about the weight restrictions, it was essentially a choice between a marksman stock with a standard barrel (such as what the OP has) or a sporter stock with a medium barrel. The marksman stock with standard barrel was popular with shooters in the late 40's to about the mid 50's. I'm not sure when the weight restriction was lifted, but this variation was eventually dropped as shooters gravitated towards other configurations.
The military shooting teams also used the marksman stock/standard barrel combo. IIRC, the Marines purchased 10 or 12 of them in the late 40's. A friend of mine has one and it had a US stamp on the side of the receiver, I think it had a USMC property marked Lyman Super Targetspot mounted. He sold it about 10 years ago, I wish he still had it.
This right here! The stock is original and it was specifically made for the standard barrel, don't mess with it.
As noted previously the front sight ramp would not have grooves in the ramp for a sight hood if it is a National Match Model 70. Also we could further determine the originality by having a picture of the oval proof marks and or if there is a sideway oval with a P inside to indicate it had been rebarreled by the factory. Also need the barrel date on the underneath of the barrel to see if it matches the date of the serial number of the receiver serial number. If I was buying what was said to be a authentic National Match I would want to see above all match up. I agree that the stock is from a National Match but that alone does not make it one.
I want to correct a couple of things I posted.
First, the holes in front of the sight boss are correct. I had forgotten that.
Secondly, after reviewing additional non posted photos of the rifle the barrel is correct and original.
This is a bang up good rifle. It needs a few parts.
They look like this.
If anyone else needs Unertl or Winchester parts let me know. Im still digging them out.
First, the holes in front of the sight boss are correct. I had forgotten that.
Secondly, after reviewing additional non posted photos of the rifle the barrel is correct and original.
This is a bang up good rifle. It needs a few parts.
They look like this.
If anyone else needs Unertl or Winchester parts let me know. Im still digging them out.
I want to correct a couple of things I posted.
First, the holes in front of the sight boss are correct. I had forgotten that.
Secondly, after reviewing additional non posted photos of the rifle the barrel is correct and original.
This is a bang up good rifle. It needs a few parts.
They look like this.
If anyone else needs Unertl or Winchester parts let me know. Im still digging them out. View attachment 7416372
Ill take them for $23.25.
Pm with Paypal info.
Thank you.
SHARKS BE IN THE WATER!
Dont make me contact Lowlight about a PX issue.......
i just want to thank all for all the help on this rifle you gentlemen are a great source of info i think i got a good one when i get the scope mounted and shoot some groups i will post them. i also have a bull barrel one in 220 swift with a unertal to shoot i will post a pic of it and the groups also. much thanks to rich for hooking me up thanks again.
I can't tell you how enlightening it is to come to "Vintage" and read what some very knowledgable people post here. Years of research under their belts. And, a ton of good guidance.
This is sort of the "gentlemans club" of Snipershide if you will (not the strip club kind). Peaceable discourse is preferred here. As far as your early posts with all caps I was used to seeing it in the military. I got on the internet and was told it's "yelling" too. So, no big deal, some of us know where it comes from. Just understand you are on the internet now, lol.
We love seeing groups from old rifles like these when the owner feels the weapon can be fired. Some prefer to preserve what they have and not shoot them. Of course, when you come here and ask questions, we'd love to see the progress you've made in restoring what you have. You're welcome to post that here anytime.
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