Winchester 1897 Shotgun Question

[Namekagon]

Its not a rifle, but....

My uncle just passed away, and we found in his house an Winchester 1897 12 gauge that we think was likely my grandfather's. According to multiple internet sources, the serial number puts the gun as manufactured in 1904 or 1905, depending on the source. The number is C239374. What i'm curious about is that the stamping on the barrel of the all the patent dates includes one for July 5 10 (which is assume is July 5 1910).

Were any of the patent date's used on the barrel markings done with future patent dates on them? Or is this an indication that the barrel is newer than the receiver? The serial numbers on the magazine tube and receiver match. No serial number on the barrel, that I know of (I don't have it in hand, its at my Mom's place)

 

[RTH1800]

No patent dates would be printed before actual date. How would date be known?

 

[Namekagon]

No patent dates would be printed before actual date. How would date be known?

My thought exactly, though I didn't know if possibly the stamps were ever used ahead of time in anticipation of a future patent.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

They were easy barrels to swap. Or a hard working Gun might have had a barrel wear out or burst or the owner just wanted more than one.

Great guns, the 97!

Sirhr

 

[Lange Carabine]

They were easy barrels to swap. Or a hard working Gun might have had a barrel wear out or burst or the owner just wanted more than one.

Great guns, the 97!

Sirhr

That is a popular misconception.
The barrel assy is serialized to the frame for a reason and is not necessarily nor meant to be interchangeable.
You might get lucky and a mismatched barrel assy fit up or be able to be adjusted to fit, and you might not.
A proper fit involves the barrel assy turning in snug by hand with no wiggle between it and the frame and no gap between the chamber ring and the barrels breech face. Its all in the timing sleeve that threads onto the barrel stub and engages the interrupted thread in the frame.
IIRC, there were 3 timing sleeves used on the M97, lettered A, B and C.
The M12 had it's own set of sleeves numbered 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, which would work on a 97.
Cant remember now if the chamber rings varied or if they were all the same.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

That is a popular misconception.
The barrel assy is serialized to the frame for a reason and is not necessarily nor meant to be interchangeable.
You might get lucky and a mismatched barrel assy fit up or be able to be adjusted to fit, and you might not.
A proper fit involves the barrel assy turning in snug by hand with no wiggle between it and the frame and no gap between the chamber ring and the barrels breech face. Its all in the timing sleeve that threads onto the barrel stub.
IIRC, there were 5(or maybe 7, dont recall) different numbered timing sleeves used on the M97 alone.
The M12 had it's own set of sleeves, some of which would work on a 97.
Cant remember now if the chamber rings varied or if they were all the same.

True... and when I say 'Easy' I guess I am comparing it to your LC Smith double or 'traditional' guns. It's not an 870 for sure!

But... barrel changing back in the day, when cash was expensive and labor was generally cheap, made it worth repairing or updating things. A broken gun wasn't tossed away, a gunsmith fixed it. Or it went back to the factory. I am sure you've seen the 'factory' price list sheets for fixing stuff. "New Barrel installed... $5!"

By way of comparison, I have a very cool old hammer top-lever Purdey. It was made in 1855!!! Wait what? What is a break-open top lever Purdey made in 1855? That was years before the shotgun cartridge had even been invented. The answer... it went back to Purdey in the 1870's and was made into a top lever gun. From a muzzle-loading gun. Masterfully done. I mean true London Best work.

Incredible that there was "any" way to economically make such a conversion. But they did. More often than you think. And if some Laird wanted his 'new' gun for 20 pounds 'less' than a new one... well, there ya go. It happened (Donald Dallas book has a great section on it.)

So, yes... totally agree. But a gun used a lot back then could easily have worn out a barrel. Owner could have burst it. Or simply bought a gun and said "I want an upland bird gun not a goose gun" and rather than trade it or sell it... a gunsmith converted it. For a lot less than a new gun.

We are lucky today that guns are cheap, plentiful and easy to work on ourselves. As we joke, Barbie, but for men. Back then, a gun may have been a man's single most valuable possession short of maybe a farm or a horse. An if you lived in a rented shack and walked... it was possibly your most valuable possession. So 'remodeling' wasn't a problem. Especially for those who didn't have cash!

Last, and I can't recall... didn't the 97 have a takedown option? Which could also explain the barrel. Though I think their takedown's were 'fitted' and not interchangeable, as you mention.

Good stuff!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Lange Carabine]

^ Yes there were/are TD and solid frame versions of the M97, most 97's are TD's IIRC.
Same with the M12, except Winchester chose to name the solid frame version the model 25 for some reason.

Another thing to consider regarding M97 barrel swaps back in the day is that Winchester kept the 97 in production until 1957 and parts and factory service was offered for years afterward.
Nowadays finding a knowledgeable GS or the scarcer parts in serviceable condition, like the adjusting sleeves and left hand extractors for instance, can be a real effort. They arent overly complicated to maintain, but like you say they aren't 870 simple.

 

[Charger442]

^ Yes there were/are TD and solid frame versions of the M97, most 97's are TD's IIRC.
Same with the M12, except Winchester chose to name the solid frame version the model 25 for some reason.

Another thing to consider regarding M97 barrel swaps back in the day is that Winchester kept the 97 in production until 1957 and parts and factory service was offered for years afterward.
Nowadays finding a knowledgeable GS or the scarcer parts in serviceable condition, like the adjusting sleeves and left hand extractors for instance, can be a real effort. They arent overly complicated to maintain, but like you say they aren't 870 simple.

a Winchester 97 smith swore to me they were called the "97" because they had 97 moving parts.

ive had a couple, currently only have one. the OP says there are two serials on the bottom so its a takedown gun. so you have a takedown gun that isnt just a replacement front end timed into the receiver, but a new barrel was fit into it. id guess it could have been factory done as a new barrel and Winchester would have done the work.

sounds like a cool shotgun and id love to see pictures.

 

[Lange Carabine]

Barrels weren't serialized, only frames and extensions. Frames at the time of mfg, extensions at the time of final assembly.
Sometimes Winchester dated barrels (possibly assembly dates)and it's not at all uncommon to find a gun were the bbl date does not correlate to the serial number.
Example: I have a Model 12 20ga that according to the serial number was made in 1958. The barrel, however, was made much earlier, prior to 1919. Its marked "Model 1912" and Nickel Steel. Winchester dropped the "1912" designation in 1919 and switched to "Proof Steel" in 1932.
The barrel was also initially chambered for 2 1/2" shells but was later factory converted to 2 3/4". The "2 3/4 chamber" marking is roll stamped but is deeper and of a different font commonly seen later in production compared to the other barrel markings.
IMO, what the OP has is a correct, original C series gun that was assembled at a later date than the serial number indicates the frame was made.
Not uncommon at all.

 

[Charlie112]

I have two 97 Winchester shotguns that have been in my family along time. The two I own were my Great Grandpa’s, one is a 28 inch full choke, the other a 26 inch cylinder. My father used the cylinder for bird hunting.. at this time I am working on the full choke , needs a little tlc, I will get pics up later . I believe that both have matching serial numbers as barrels match receivers… ️

 

[RTH1800]

True... and when I say 'Easy' I guess I am comparing it to your LC Smith double or 'traditional' guns. It's not an 870 for sure!

But... barrel changing back in the day, when cash was expensive and labor was generally cheap, made it worth repairing or updating things. A broken gun wasn't tossed away, a gunsmith fixed it. Or it went back to the factory. I am sure you've seen the 'factory' price list sheets for fixing stuff. "New Barrel installed... $5!"

By way of comparison, I have a very cool old hammer top-lever Purdey. It was made in 1855!!! Wait what? What is a break-open top lever Purdey made in 1855? That was years before the shotgun cartridge had even been invented. The answer... it went back to Purdey in the 1870's and was made into a top lever gun. From a muzzle-loading gun. Masterfully done. I mean true London Best work.

Incredible that there was "any" way to economically make such a conversion. But they did. More often than you think. And if some Laird wanted his 'new' gun for 20 pounds 'less' than a new one... well, there ya go. It happened (Donald Dallas book has a great section on it.)

So, yes... totally agree. But a gun used a lot back then could easily have worn out a barrel. Owner could have burst it. Or simply bought a gun and said "I want an upland bird gun not a goose gun" and rather than trade it or sell it... a gunsmith converted it. For a lot less than a new gun.

We are lucky today that guns are cheap, plentiful and easy to work on ourselves. As we joke, Barbie, but for men. Back then, a gun may have been a man's single most valuable possession short of maybe a farm or a horse. An if you lived in a rented shack and walked... it was possibly your most valuable possession. So 'remodeling' wasn't a problem. Especially for those who didn't have cash!

Last, and I can't recall... didn't the 97 have a takedown option? Which could also explain the barrel. Though I think their takedown's were 'fitted' and not interchangeable, as you mention.

Good stuff!

Cheers,

Sirhr

How does a shotgun barrel “wear out”?
I’m serious, not being sarcastic. I have seen them bulged and blown up but never “worn out.”

Thanks