Fieldcraft Wind flags????????

[USAF1A8]

Morning gents,
I;ve got a rnage day coming with about 120 various rounds to test through my .308 and had a few questions I was hoping y'all could help with. Wind flags, havnt founda good source to buy has anyone made any and how? Also Multiple flags, if Im shooting at 600yds how many flags do i want, where, and how do i factor different readings off flags? Do i average the reading out? I have been using shooter ready for over a year now, i understand the simulated flags they use, but keyword is simulated of course.
I ask because the range i shoot at is lined with trees to the east and has a large berm on the west and the wind, I have been told is pretty screwy down there, if I imagine this as a basin filling with water trying to track wind path it looks like youre filling it through a sieve with a few holes plugged. Any help is appreciated

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind flags

I use 4-ish footlong poles that have been rip cut from scrap lumber, pointed and driven into the ground. I staple 3ft strips of bright orange or yellow plastic surveyor tape to the top of the pole. Except for occasionally getting wound around the poles, they tend to do what I need.

Distances are up to you, and which ones are more significant is something I'll leave to you to figure out (Actally, I'm being helpful here, by not saying); but consider the balance between insufficient info and info overload.

Definitely have one (set of?) flag(s) within the first 50yd.

Flags at the target distance can be informative about overall (especially about head- and tail-)wind trends, but what they show usually isn't affecting the bullet to any significant level.

Greg

 

[USAF1A8]

Re: Wind flags

Awesome thanx judging by no other responses is this what most use, or does no one use flags?

 

[fx77]

Re: Wind flags

carbon river wind flags are great

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Wind flags

Creedmore Sports.
or
Cotton Fabric: triangular shaped, 10' long, (<)3' wide at the rope end. Old sheet works fine.

 

[roymorrison]

Re: Wind flags

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use 4-ish footlong poles that have been rip cut from scrap lumber, pointed and driven into the ground. I staple 3ft strips of bright orange or yellow plastic surveyor tape to the top of the pole. Except for occasionally getting wound around the poles, they tend to do what I need.

Distances are up to you, and which ones are more significant is something I'll leave to you to figure out (Actally, I'm being helpful here, by not saying); but consider the balance between insufficient info and info overload.

Definitely have one (set of?) flag(s) within the first 50yd.

Flags at the target distance can be informative about overall (especially about head- and tail-)wind trends, but what they show usually isn't affecting the bullet to any significant level.

Greg </div></div>

I'm fairly positive that you are incorrect. Winds at the target or nearest the target have the greatest effect on the flight of the round because it is travelling at a lower velocity, especially at long distances, unless you are shooting through an intersection in an urban environment or through some crazy crosswind at some point. At a minimum you should have wind somewhere down the line, and wind at the target. I'm not going to say wind at the gun is unimportant, however you should be able to feel/see/somehow tell the wind at your current location without requiring a flag.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Wind flags

.....roymorrison.......welcome to the Hide sir !

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind flags

Welcome to The 'Hide, Roy. Thank you for serving; the young men and women on duty in our Nation's hot spots are the best of us.

I am not going to desecrate your debut here by contradicting you.

This subject gets a lot of mileage here, and was covered rather well recently. I refer you to this thread.

We are here to help, not argue.

Greg

 

[bohem]

Re: Wind flags

I use greg's method with a little twist. My range has target boards every 100y from 2-600. I just take a thumb tack and stick the 3' streamers to the side of the board and watch it. The boards are arranged in such a manner that I can watch 2, 3, and 400 almost simultaneously without really changing my position much, just shift my eyes.

When I'm shooting 4, 5, and 600 exclusively I just hang a streamer from the "shooter downrange" sign at 25y and hammer a stake at 100 and 300. I can't concentrate on much more than that in addition to the one on the board itself.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Wind flags

Roy- I don't have time to read the thread that Greg provided a link to but in short: winds at or near the target have less time to effect the flight of the bullet and therefore are not as consequential.

Also, keep in mind that due to the laws of physics: "a object in motion will remain in motion" a bullet that is blown off course in the beginning of it's flight will continue along it's new trajectory until a opposing force (wind) blows it back the other direction. So a small wind deflecting a bullet in the beginning of it's flight can actually effect bullet flight more than a strong wind late in the flight.

I hope that helps.

 

[roymorrison]

Re: Wind flags

I agree with everything stated, the only proof I have of "my way" is anecdotal at best. Most of my wind calls during the day are made with mirage at the target or somewhere in between, I've never made a wind adjustment using wind at the gun and I've always been fine.

Can we agree that you should make your wind call based on where the wind is blowing the hardest or at full value?

Perhaps USASS needs to update its curriculum.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Wind flags

USASS is a good start but definitely not perfect. They make it pretty clear that the objective is to hit a human; not be ultra precise.

As for which is most important it could be the full value 10mph wind or the 7mph half value wind. You have to make the call based on the info you have and the situation at hand. If you are lucky they counter-act eachother and you don't need to account for any wind. Seen that myself.

 

[sinister]

Re: Wind flags

Flags tell you what the wind did in the near past. Mirage tells you what the wind is doing <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">now</span></span>.

Make your wind call by what it's doing at the target and you'll miss. Wind affects your bullet the entire flight.

Generally, pick a mid-flight point and make your call.

I've shot places where four to six wind flags on a 600 or 1,000 yard range were all pointing different directions (including at each other).

Creedmoor carries wind flags but you really don't need them. You can buy surveyor tape and 2 - 3 foot wire "flag poles" at Lowes, Home Depot, True Value, or Ace. Put "Streamers" out every hundred yards, they're cheap and you can get a good idea what the wind's doing through your scope (it's what the benchresters do at 100, 200, and 300 yards).

Get a good coaching or spotting scope. With the Kowa Highlander not only can you see your winds, you can see the speeds of different layers from surface to trajectory apogee.

Sniping isn't benchrest, it's about hitting and killing quickly and stealthily. Harder to do with multiple targets and angles.


Just an amateur, but have been doing it for years.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Wind flags

I'm pretty agreeable, so sure, we can agree. But wind and bullets don't care what we think, they just do what they always do.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Wind flags

Valuable book.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=813149

 

[sethmstanton]

Re: Wind flags

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roymorrison</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with everything stated, the only proof I have of "my way" is anecdotal at best. Most of my wind calls during the day are made with mirage at the target or somewhere in between, I've never made a wind adjustment using wind at the gun and I've always been fine.

Can we agree that you should make your wind call based on where the wind is blowing the hardest or at full value?

Perhaps USASS needs to update its curriculum. </div></div>

+1

I agree. There is a reason that people zero there guns @ 100 and 200 yards. Because the wind has little to no effect. Ive always read wind @ 3/4 range to the target and never had an issue shootin 3/4-1 MOA @ long range. JMHO.

 

[Platypus]

Re: Wind flags

Greg linked to a very good thread discussing reading wind and Sobrbiker hit the nail on the head with elevation being science (you are dealing with factors with distinct values, gravity, velocity-decreasing with time of flight, bullet design and BC, etc.) while wind is Voodoo (constantly changing velocity and direction even if just minutely, conflicting directions, in a 540 degree world). A lot has already been said about taking all the factors into consideration and their validity in making that SWAG to put rounds on target, near wind, far wind, swirls, mirage at different points between the shooter and target as well as flags, dust, vegetation, hell even the clothing on the target can be an indicator, as well as knowing trends where you shoot. At Quantico guys would fight for target boards on the right or left lateral limits as there were times that a beautiful calm tunnel of air would be generated by the wind coming over the trees and the rest of the line would be kicking rocks trying to figure out how to get rounds on target. Sobrbiker alluded to a point in that aforementioned post that I think has been missed here and there. He described how he was spotting targets and able to predict impacts. The point being he was working his glass and observing real time effects given the current conditions and not running his gun. My point being the best wind education I have received was from spotting for others. When conditions enabled me to get on top of the vapor trail with quality glass I was able to see the path of the bullet and how the wind influenced its path. My suggestion is this; partner up with someone and split your range time between shooting and spotting this really improves your ability to read the wind and develops effective sniper observer dialogue. A good spotter is worth their weight in gold. When I was playing cowboys and indians often times the most experienced shooter was not the sniper as the observers ability to get the sniper on target was key and the sniper executed the mechanics of marksmanship in reference to the directions given by the spotter to be succesful.

Low Light brought up a good point as well - get that next round down range to either confirm your hit or make the correction based on changing your wind hold in reference to your previous impact. This is damn near immediate feedback to what you need to do for the present wind condition.

Other thoughts: Mirage is a bitch- not only determined by wind velocity and direction but humidity, light conditions, surfaces over which it is being read, altitude and air density.

Try running your spotting scope at a lower power when ready mirage, the M49 with its 20x lens worked pretty well and a quarter turn and half turn counterclockwise from being focused on the target provided a couple good reference points for reading the mirage. The other benefit to the M49 was that if need be it could be used as an impact weapon.

The biggest contributing factor which has been stated here and in the other thread mentioned is you have to get out there and do it - a lot. At the risk of sounding like a line form Zen and the art of the gun you will get to a point where you just know about how much wind to hold for. This is a perishable skill but quickly reacquired with some patient practice once you get it figured out in your own head.

Couple guys already mentioned it seize the opportunity to shoot with a good wind blowing. In Montana on the Eastern slope of the Rockies we looked for calm days just to see if we still could hit anything without having to fight the damn near ever present wind.


Oh, back to the original question; sometimes for shits and grins I will use a stiff enough 4' stick (don't want one too flimsy that it generates bounce as the wind catches the flag) driven into the ground at different yard lines with about a 2' tail of engineers tape attached to the top. Sometimes when I was being really fancy I would use different colored engineers tape to designate yardage when on a UKD range. This provided me just another reference point to learn the wind as does moving vegetation, dust, and mirage.

Folks need to quit trying to out think this thing and just do it. Cuss and discuss wind all you want, read everything you can find about it, as it will help you to recognize what you are seeing, but it will not make you proficient at reading the wind unless you are out there doing it.

Good luck and SWAG on!

 

[RECKON SO]

Re: Wind flags????????

I have made some wind flags out PVC pipe that are about 7 feet tall with about a 3 foot leg hooked together by an 90 degree elbow. They look like big upside down letter "L"s. You can just use a close pin and hook surveyors tape to the end, that way it doesnt wrap around the pole. You can make a base out of anything that the pipe will slide onto. I shoot in old strip pits and there is usually alot of tall grass so the height helps. You can also take them apart to haul them if you want to.

 

[Mark Walker]

Re: Wind flags????????

These are some of the best you can buy: http://www.brflags.com/

 

[flims]

Flags tell you what the wind did in the near past. Mirage tells you what the wind is doing <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">now</span></span>.

Make your wind call by what it's doing at the target and you'll miss. Wind affects your bullet the entire flight.

Generally, pick a mid-flight point and make your call.

I've shot places where four to six wind flags on a 600 or 1,000 yard range were all pointing different directions (including at each other).

Creedmoor carries wind flags but you really don't need them. You can buy surveyor tape and 2 - 3 foot wire "flag poles" at Lowes, Home Depot, True Value, or Ace. Put "Streamers" out every hundred yards, they're cheap and you can get a good idea what the wind's doing through your scope (it's what the benchresters do at 100, 200, and 300 yards).

Get a good coaching or spotting scope. With the Kowa Highlander not only can you see your winds, you can see the speeds of different layers from surface to trajectory apogee.

Sniping isn't benchrest, it's about hitting and killing quickly and stealthily. Harder to do with multiple targets and angles.


Just an amateur, but have been doing it for years.

Can you please explain what is the difference between what you see with the kowa binos and that usually seen with a spotting scope?

 

[wigwamitus]

I have Kestral 2500NV for wind speed. For direction I use a 3 foot stick with 2 strings attached ... and a concrete nail and hammer to make a hole in the ground. The soil in the flint hills of Kansas is HARD !!!.

 

[sinister]

Can you please explain what is the difference between what you see with the kowa binos and that usually seen with a spotting scope?

Kowa Prominar bino spotting scopes have large objectives and very, very clear "High Definition"-quality Fluorite crystal lenses. These, coupled with 24 and 32X magnification (and the ability to give binocular depth of field) allow the spotter-coach to see different layers of mirage from the surface through the apogee of bullet flight arc.

A good wind coach can make his calls based off what he actually sees the wind doing between him and the target, and at varying heights above ground (not just at the surface or in direct line with the target).

 

[Asperly Aimless]

First rule of Sniper's Hide: We don't talk about wind flags.

 

[milo 2.0]

First rule of Sniper's Hide: We don't talk about wind flags.

If a person wants to learn to shoot, and not burn up a ton of ammo, wind flags can help. If a guy solely relies on flags, he will fail ultimately. If one pays attention to the surroundings, in conjunction with the flag=win, so he can move forward without them.
That said, these are nice;

windgeardirect.com

They say they are sturdy, but wont last a full year if kept up, not a bad price though. Pound a couple green t-posts and tie wrap the poles to it.

 

[Asperly Aimless]

I agree 100%. I was being facetious, as last time I mentioned wind flags the retort was "When was the last time you had wind flags in the field?"

 

[milo 2.0]

I agree 100%. I was being facetious, as last time I mentioned wind flags the retort was "When was the last time you had wind flags in the field?"

I just quoted you, not pointing a finger. Yes, I'm sure they're right, I doubt someone would let a guy pound wind flags in anticipation of being plugged!

 

[sinister]

You can make or buy wind flags. Joann's or Hancock's in town usually has red and yellow flag nylon, or you can buy it online at Sailrite.

Here are some flags (besides Creedmoor) on-line:

Wind Flags

12’ Red/Yellow Wind Flag---Dimensions are the NRA approved dimensions of 12’ long, 48” high at the hoist and 18” at the fly end. Constructed of the finest flag nylon with a heavy-duty header with brass grommets. Sewn to last with double and triple stitching throughout. Durable and extremely weather resistant. Price-$49.95 Sale Price- $44.96

Of course you'll never find them in the field whether shooting at game or booger eaters shooting at you -- I've never been on a range (yet) where someone was deliberately trying to kill me while I was practicing, checking out a gun, or developing loads, either.

If you have the luxury to take a second shot after you miss with an initial "Spotter" round good on you. If you miss or wound a moose, bull elk, caribou, mulie, or pronghorn (or the folks you aimed at start shooting at you) you have different calculus.

Use them or don't, they're just another training aid or tool. They can help you save ammo and aggravation by helping you judge your wind calls. If you don't know why you're missing what's the point? If you're not using flags what are you taking your visual cues from? A Kestrel gives you winds where you are.

Crawl - walk - run. You certainly don't NEED them, and in the field you won't have them. Only you can determine if they'll be helpful at your present state of technical proficiency.

If you just got started they can help. If you can teach classes at a Master Instructor level, hungover, before your first cup of coffee at 12,000 feet on a Taliban hunt after a bar fight last night before you bedded two smoking hot stewardesses you probably don't.