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Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
WSM's don't use as slow of a powder as traditional short-magnums like the .300 Winchester Magnum. Because the powder burns more quickly, it doesn't require as long of a barrel. The trade-offs are that they don't feed as well, they operate at a higher pressure, and they have a snappier recoil impulse. YMMV.
WSM's don't use as slow of a powder as traditional short-magnums like the .300 Winchester Magnum. Because the powder burns more quickly, it doesn't require as long of a barrel. The trade-offs are that they don't feed as well, they operate at a higher pressure, and they have a snappier recoil impulse. YMMV.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
Same speed as what?
Not sure what you are asking here.
I'm playing mad professor with a 20" 300WM but realize there will be trade offs.
What would help is to define what you are intending it for and what trade off you are willing to make.
I realized mine will not get the speeds of a 26" barrel but I think I will still get a 230 out to the distance I want without going sub sonic.
Also know I'm going to have more unburnt powder but I dont care so long as it dosnt blow up my supressor and I can get the velocity at the chrono I'm hoping for.
So what are you looking to do and what trade off are you willing to make?
BTW if the 20"300 turns out to be a turd I'll rechamber it to WMS at 19-18" and see what happens.
Same speed as what?
Not sure what you are asking here.
I'm playing mad professor with a 20" 300WM but realize there will be trade offs.
What would help is to define what you are intending it for and what trade off you are willing to make.
I realized mine will not get the speeds of a 26" barrel but I think I will still get a 230 out to the distance I want without going sub sonic.
Also know I'm going to have more unburnt powder but I dont care so long as it dosnt blow up my supressor and I can get the velocity at the chrono I'm hoping for.
So what are you looking to do and what trade off are you willing to make?
BTW if the 20"300 turns out to be a turd I'll rechamber it to WMS at 19-18" and see what happens.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same speed as what?
Not sure what you are asking here.
I'm playing mad professor with a 20" 300WM but realize there will be trade offs.
What would help is to define what you are intending it for and what trade off you are willing to make.
I realized mine will not get the speeds of a 26" barrel...
</div></div>
I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." this is just for example.
Trying to determine how much barrel length i can get rid of using a short magnum before I compromise muzzle velocity, fail to get complete burns, etc...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same speed as what?
Not sure what you are asking here.
I'm playing mad professor with a 20" 300WM but realize there will be trade offs.
What would help is to define what you are intending it for and what trade off you are willing to make.
I realized mine will not get the speeds of a 26" barrel...
</div></div>
I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." this is just for example.
Trying to determine how much barrel length i can get rid of using a short magnum before I compromise muzzle velocity, fail to get complete burns, etc...
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds.
I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." </div></div>
just does not work that way, there are too many variables that can be manipulated to prove/disprove the statement
obviously the 300wsm can be loaded hot with short brass and throat life as the win mag can be loaded down to 308 velocities if desired so the velocity of the hotrodded 20" wsm would exceed that of the mild 24" win mag
loading is always a sliding scale of risk/reward, advantages vs disadvantages
you are looking for an absolute decision that you have to make yourself
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." </div></div>
just does not work that way, there are too many variables that can be manipulated to prove/disprove the statement
obviously the 300wsm can be loaded hot with short brass and throat life as the win mag can be loaded down to 308 velocities if desired so the velocity of the hotrodded 20" wsm would exceed that of the mild 24" win mag
loading is always a sliding scale of risk/reward, advantages vs disadvantages
you are looking for an absolute decision that you have to make yourself
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
Are you speaking in general terms or are you saying short barrels errode the throat? If so please explain as I cant figure out what one has to do with the other.
Are you speaking in general terms or are you saying short barrels errode the throat? If so please explain as I cant figure out what one has to do with the other.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JES629</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds. </div></div>
the usual opinion is the short neck on the WSM case accelerates throat erosion vs other cartridges with similar pressure/velocity/powder capacity especially the 7WSM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JES629</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds. </div></div>
the usual opinion is the short neck on the WSM case accelerates throat erosion vs other cartridges with similar pressure/velocity/powder capacity especially the 7WSM
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." this is just for example.
Trying to determine how much barrel length i can get rid of using a short magnum before I compromise muzzle velocity, fail to get complete burns, etc... </div></div>
I think depending on application the WSM has the advantage for shorter barrel. Just a WAG but the case is much smaller than the WM and I would guess that would allow one to use some faster powders than you safely could in the WM.
To be blunt I went the route I did only because I had a long action, a 20" barrel and a 308 and 300wm reamer. Didnt like running 308 in a long action so I figured I would play with the 300. I may end up rechambering to wsm and keep the barrel at 18-19" as I need to loose an inch or so to rechamber.
So big question is do you reload or not. If you are limited by factory ammo alot of what will be discussed is not really applicable to you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
I'm looking for the no kidding comparison "a 20 inch 300wsm barrel gives the same speed as a 24" 300 win mag." this is just for example.
Trying to determine how much barrel length i can get rid of using a short magnum before I compromise muzzle velocity, fail to get complete burns, etc... </div></div>
I think depending on application the WSM has the advantage for shorter barrel. Just a WAG but the case is much smaller than the WM and I would guess that would allow one to use some faster powders than you safely could in the WM.
To be blunt I went the route I did only because I had a long action, a 20" barrel and a 308 and 300wm reamer. Didnt like running 308 in a long action so I figured I would play with the 300. I may end up rechambering to wsm and keep the barrel at 18-19" as I need to loose an inch or so to rechamber.
So big question is do you reload or not. If you are limited by factory ammo alot of what will be discussed is not really applicable to you.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
As a rule, the 300 Win Mag case will produce more velocity because it can hold more powder and a longer barrel will give you a higher muzzle velocity than a shorter barrel. The attraction to the short mag is the ability to run a short action. There are some great ballistics references for you to compare factory ammo in different calibers and bullet configurations giving the velocities every 100 yds out to 1000 yds. You can then pick the bullet you want to shoot, the velocity you need at your desired distance and then fudge for the different barrel length options. Shout if you need a reference to one of the ammo and ballistics resources.
As a rule, the 300 Win Mag case will produce more velocity because it can hold more powder and a longer barrel will give you a higher muzzle velocity than a shorter barrel. The attraction to the short mag is the ability to run a short action. There are some great ballistics references for you to compare factory ammo in different calibers and bullet configurations giving the velocities every 100 yds out to 1000 yds. You can then pick the bullet you want to shoot, the velocity you need at your desired distance and then fudge for the different barrel length options. Shout if you need a reference to one of the ammo and ballistics resources.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
i knew there was a reason i have a 28" schneider barrel on my 300 WSM
haahaa
i knew there was a reason i have a 28" schneider barrel on my 300 WSM
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JES629</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds. </div></div>
the usual opinion is the short neck on the WSM case accelerates throat erosion vs other cartridges with similar pressure/velocity/powder capacity especially the 7WSM </div></div>Harold Vaughn uses the term expansion ratio to discuss the impact on throat erosion, inter alia. The ratio of the case volume to the expanded volume is what he calls the expansion ratio. A short fat case shooting a smaller caliber bullet burning faster powder will cause more throat erosion than a cartridge burning powder more slowly down a larger caliber bore.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JES629</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no experience with the WSM or WSSM but have talked with owners that noticed significant throat damage after a few hundred rounds. </div></div>
the usual opinion is the short neck on the WSM case accelerates throat erosion vs other cartridges with similar pressure/velocity/powder capacity especially the 7WSM </div></div>Harold Vaughn uses the term expansion ratio to discuss the impact on throat erosion, inter alia. The ratio of the case volume to the expanded volume is what he calls the expansion ratio. A short fat case shooting a smaller caliber bullet burning faster powder will cause more throat erosion than a cartridge burning powder more slowly down a larger caliber bore.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
I tried the 20" 300wsm.....its a waste of time, fast burning powders "pop" too quick ,to really get any good velocities. You'd have to drop down in bullet weight which will ballisticly negate some of your speed gains.
24" possibly 23" but I wouldn't go shorter. My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a 300fps, it is brutally lethal and accurate
I tried the 20" 300wsm.....its a waste of time, fast burning powders "pop" too quick ,to really get any good velocities. You'd have to drop down in bullet weight which will ballisticly negate some of your speed gains.
24" possibly 23" but I wouldn't go shorter. My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a 300fps, it is brutally lethal and accurate
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">300fps</span></span>, it is brutally lethal and accurate</div></div>
That's really cookin...must be stuffin a whole case full of Bullseye behind that puppy...
TC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">300fps</span></span>, it is brutally lethal and accurate</div></div>
That's really cookin...must be stuffin a whole case full of Bullseye behind that puppy...
TC
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
Why is everyone saying "faster powders" and the Win Mag holds more powder etc...they both have loads with the same powders and within 5gr of each other. The REASON the short mag. concept came about was that they use a fatter casing increasing the area/amount of powder that can ignite at one moment. a wider base means the powder "stacks" into a shorter "line" that must be burnt through before the "flame" ignites all of the powder. This means that grain for grain, the same powder in a short mag will finish burning faster than in a long action....thus the theory that you can use a shorter barrel to experience a complete burn and not lose velocity.
My original post sums up pretty simple...has anyone ever actually experienced that a short mag can get max velocity (complete burn...but can only be measured in terms of MV) out of a shorter barrel and if so, how short were you able to go.
Why is everyone saying "faster powders" and the Win Mag holds more powder etc...they both have loads with the same powders and within 5gr of each other. The REASON the short mag. concept came about was that they use a fatter casing increasing the area/amount of powder that can ignite at one moment. a wider base means the powder "stacks" into a shorter "line" that must be burnt through before the "flame" ignites all of the powder. This means that grain for grain, the same powder in a short mag will finish burning faster than in a long action....thus the theory that you can use a shorter barrel to experience a complete burn and not lose velocity.
My original post sums up pretty simple...has anyone ever actually experienced that a short mag can get max velocity (complete burn...but can only be measured in terms of MV) out of a shorter barrel and if so, how short were you able to go.
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Top Cat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">300fps</span></span>, it is brutally lethal and accurate</div></div>
That's really cookin...must be stuffin a whole case full of Bullseye behind that puppy...
TC </div></div>
Damn you got me, that was my pet sub load.....j/k
3000fps is more my style
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Top Cat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 300wsm has a 24 barrel and I push 185 Bergers at a <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">300fps</span></span>, it is brutally lethal and accurate</div></div>
That's really cookin...must be stuffin a whole case full of Bullseye behind that puppy...
TC </div></div>
Damn you got me, that was my pet sub load.....j/k
3000fps is more my style
Re: WSM's equal shorter barrels...Really???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a rule, the 300 Win Mag case will produce more velocity because it can hold more powder and a longer barrel will give you a higher muzzle velocity than a shorter barrel. The attraction to the short mag is the ability to run a short action. There are some great ballistics references for you to compare factory ammo in different calibers and bullet configurations giving the velocities every 100 yds out to 1000 yds. You can then pick the bullet you want to shoot, the velocity you need at your desired distance and then fudge for the different barrel length options. Shout if you need a reference to one of the ammo and ballistics resources. </div></div>
I think targaflorio hit the nail on the head....exactly!
But more specifically for a 300 WSM or a 300 win mag, I personally would not go below a 24" barrel to allow enough time for powder burn and actual increased velocities of mags.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a rule, the 300 Win Mag case will produce more velocity because it can hold more powder and a longer barrel will give you a higher muzzle velocity than a shorter barrel. The attraction to the short mag is the ability to run a short action. There are some great ballistics references for you to compare factory ammo in different calibers and bullet configurations giving the velocities every 100 yds out to 1000 yds. You can then pick the bullet you want to shoot, the velocity you need at your desired distance and then fudge for the different barrel length options. Shout if you need a reference to one of the ammo and ballistics resources. </div></div>
I think targaflorio hit the nail on the head....exactly!
But more specifically for a 300 WSM or a 300 win mag, I personally would not go below a 24" barrel to allow enough time for powder burn and actual increased velocities of mags.
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