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Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

rksimple

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 2, 2006
450
5
Tehachapi, CA
I'm normally not the kind of guy that complains about things like this in public, but this sort of ineptitude can't go unmentioned. I don't even know where to start. But to say that this was, by far, the worst match I've ever attended, seen, heard about or read about, would be an understatement. You can read about what the match was proposed to be here. Here's an excerpt:

<span style="font-style: italic">So, you think you are hot as a long range shooter?

Come and prove your mettle at our first ever long range shooting competition under real field conditions.

You can boast about hits on the range all you like -- that is just bluster. This competition is the real deal.

You won't be sitting at a bench or shooting at known distances or on a flat firing line.</span>


There was nothing "sniper" about this match.
There was nothing "Xtreme" about this match.
This was hardly even a competition.
We paid 100 dollars to sit in a fixed position all day long and have people move 3 (yes, THREE) steel targets from location to location.

Let me digress. When we arrived at the shooting location, we were greeted by a group of hunters out for opening weekend of quail season. As this was BLM land, motorcycle riders and hunters were everywhere. Many times, cease fire was called on account of quads, trucks, etc in our field of fire.

After the hunters promptly left the area, we were instructed to take one piece of identifiable gear to mark a position on a hillside where we would shoot for the enitre day. We could not move from this location once we started the match (you know, 'cause snipers don't move...I guess it makes it more Xtreme). We could not use angle cosine indicators, TIS slings, or laser rangefinders because they were "just fads and real operators realize they're just gimmicks and they stick with what has worked for years," or something to that effect.

We were overlooking a valley with a road going through the bottom. Bruce held out his arms and said we needed to pick a position in which we could see "from here to here", motioning with his arms. Then he gives a brief description saying "from the road here to the road out there." Pretty exact if you ask me. So, being that my partner cancelled and I had to shoot alone, I picked out a spot that looked good to me. The targets would be placed along the road all the way down the valley. So the spot I picked offered me kneeling/sitting shots at the close stuff and a more stable prone postion for the long stuff. So after we all pick out our spots, he THEN tells us that all day we'll be shooting from the prone position.

I told him it would've been nice to know that prior to picking our spots. He said he'd "note that down for next time." From the very first stage there were competitors not able to see the targets. They were told tough luck. Must suck being a parapalegic sniper with no ability of locomotion.

So we all get into position and the 3 targets are set up from 200 to 300 yards. They are a 9"x12", an 18"x14"(or so), and an 18"x24" steel plate. We are instructed that this would be shot prone, with bipod and rear bag. Now I'm not the best shot in the world, but these seem like some awefully big targets for shooting supported prone. But I wasn't going to argue with easy points. The COF was to get 2 minutes to range the targets and then wait for your turn to fire. From there, it was 1 round for spot on the closest target (~200 yards), and then 3 rounds for score on each of the 3 targets.

After everyone completed the COF, Bruce and Co. jumped in the Jeep, went down the road and moved the targets. This time the targets were from 300 to roughly 425 or so. We had another couple minutes to range them and then shoot them exactly like the last stage. This time however, we had to use our packs as front supports. Super Xtreme, no?

So off they go again in the Jeep to move targets. This time, from what I can remember, one target is placed at around 300, one around 500 and one around 825. One of the targets is placed in a recess off the road where its not visible to 5 of us. By this time we had had just about enough of the BS and moved ourselves up the hill for a better position. We were initially told that this would be fired from an unsupported prone position. A few rounds into it, noticing no hits, he said we could use a "natural" support...like a rock, the ground, etc. We all do OK from our new position, but since we moved to be able to see the targets, we all got a zero on that stage.

Noticing the trend of more distance, less support, we figured the next COF would be off-hand, no sling to 1k, but they ended up bringing the targets back to 300-450 or so. This time it was unsupported prone. As an aside, I think I went just under 3 hours without pulling the trigger between stage 3 and stage 4. It sucked to say the least. Anyway COF was 4 rounds to each target in 2 minutes 30 seconds. It was almost more Xtreme than I could handle, but I managed.

Well thats about all I can remember. I've blocked the rest from my memory. I don't post this to rag on Bruce or Shooters-Edge, but to inform people on what they're getting into with his competitions. If you think this COF is [STRIKE]extreme[/STRIKE] Xtreme, and its worth 100 bucks to sit out in the sun, have some guys move targets around for you, and have nothing provided for you, well, be my guest. If you've shot in good matches like Vu's, Mark's and Bill's, I think you will be left very disappointed.

My hats off to the RO's. They put in a long day's work.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rksimple</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well thats about all I can remember. I've blocked the rest from my memory. I don't post this to rag on Bruce or Shooters-Edge, but to inform people on what they're getting into with his competitions. If you think this COF is [STRIKE]extreme[/STRIKE] Xtreme, and its worth 100 bucks to sit out in the sun, have some guys move targets around for you, and have nothing provided for you, well, be my guest. If you've shot in good matches like Vu's, Mark's and Bill's, I think you will be left very disappointed.

My hats off to the RO's. They put in a long day's work. </div></div>

Yes you did post this to rag on Bruce and Shooters-Edge, and rightfully so, for 100 bucks should be a lot more than that... I wouldnt have fired one round and packed up left home and asked for my money back.

This is Bruce's / SE's match, they needed to put on a match that is on par with their training... hmm maybe they did.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 4thSeal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is Bruce's / SE's match, they needed to put on a match that is on par with their training... hmm maybe they did. </div></div>

If this COF was based on his "training", he's got a lot to learn. You know, he was the only civilian to go through sniper school. By his own admission, 10 weeks spaced out over a while. Check it: http://www.shooters-edge.com/BKBio.htm
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Im never clicking one of your links again, unless it is verified by 2 "good" sources to have female boobies between the ages of 18-35 in average or better physical condition... ie no wierd shit.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Guys,

This guy claimed to have be the only civilian that has gone through all 10 weeks of Scout Sniper school. He said he was able to take a week block at a time over a 1 year period.

I decided to dig a lil deeper and mentioned that no one I have talked to in this shooting arena has heard of him he replied "The fact that I am not mentioned in the Tactical Long Range Community
is simply an indication that you guys are in your own little cocoon."



 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

WHAT
A
loser.JPG
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Oh yeah. The coins were awesome. I think they had chocolate inside.

Vu-post that shit he sent you. This guy seems to think he's the best around. I don't want anyone else every wasting their money and getting ripped off by this joker like we all did.

Here are the pics I took:

IMG00021.jpg


IMG00022.jpg


 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....sounds like a very expensive T shirt </div></div>

No kidding. At least Mark's and Vu's shirts are cool. Would you wear, in public, a puke yellow shirt that had this on the front?

Xtreme%20Sniper%20Shoot-%2010x10x72dpi-1.jpg
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

damn...... think we could have put a better one on at our private range using just the hanging man-hole covers.... for free.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

CKA,

WHAT?! A square range...no way man. NOT XTREME ENOUGH.

This is what he sent me in an email....

"Welcome to the real world
of sniping.

This is pretty close to the final phase of shooting.
This is very very tough. If all of your competitions have
been on flat shooting ranges with nice flat firing lines
you will be screwed.

Thanks for your interest.

Bruce"
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

It was a cheesy match. I just paid $100 for a cheesy t-shirt and a cheesy silver coin. If we got a steak dinner and a few beers afterwards, I would have called it even. Not worth the dough at all.

The bronze coin was nice though.

Our group dropped $600 on the match. We could have done much more with the money.

On a side note, I meet two cools guys from Bruce's outfit. I forgot their names, but the older shooters were way cool. They didn't know how to mill, but they hitting their shots. Bruce didn't teach them, so they were relying on guestimation from construction experience. That was pretty dam impressive to me.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Pete-I was really stoked that you guys did so well. Randall and Wes got third and with you guys getting second in the team stanings, that put me in a little better mood at least.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

it made me feel a little better about the match, but it's still not worth the dough. i could have done so much more with money. we could have just gone out to the spot and partied our asses off after the shoot and still had enough money to fill our gas tanks. oh well.

i did get the phone numbers from the older shooters. i like them alot so i asked them to join our club. they are cool, relaxed guys. we'll take those shooters off Bruce's hand. they didn't know how to mill, so i let them borrow my mildot master.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I dont know the guy well but he emails me once in awhile so I sent him an email asking him to defend himself here. I wont say much until he responds. I have only been there maybe ten different times but I never saw him at Pendelton. He certainly was not one of my instructors. Now I have been a guest instructor there but guys thats more of an honor than a need. The USMC hardly needs anyone from oustide to teach sniping. Crap those men use my slings better than I do these days.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

You know, if he hadn't come off like his shit didn't stink, I may not have been so disgruntled. But when he posts shit like this, you can't help but wonder.

From Bruce:

I would like to thank everyone for your interest.

The reason for limiting to 308 is to level the playing field ballistically. I once shot in a competition where all 308s were grouped with 300 Win Mags and 338 Lapuas. None of the 308s placed in the top 10. So, this is not ballistically level. Only true 308.

This is meant to be a very tactical shoot. When you are hanging off a hillside,
shooting down into a valley at an extreme angle, having short time limits to mil the targets, and to shoot, you will be challenged. I did a test of some of the relays with a few guys and I can tell you that if you don't know your stuff, you won't do well.

As far as my hype, there are far too many jokers who think they are good shooters because they can shoot to 800 yards at known distances off benches with wind flags. Frankly, they won't cut it. So, I was trying to challenge some of them to attend. If you took it badly, get a thick skin. This competition is NOT about catering to your sensitive feelings.Finally, I have had a few e-mails about my background. I will be placing a short bio on my web page. I will post a link here. For the record, I have never claimed to be an operator. I have claimed to have taken multiple LE sniper classes and the Marine Sniper training at Pendleton, as well as taught
there on a part time basis. I have also taught many LE snipers -- don't always publicize this -- as well as operators and many civilians in all walks of life. I will go through all of this in my web post.

Am I the real deal? Talk to anyone who has taken my classes. I am thorough, detailed, tell lots of stories about my training experiences (at least), and give a lot of value for the money I charge. I do know what I am talking about and can sucessfully convey that information to others.

After you have read my bio, you can decide for yourself.

Like everything I do, I am anal retentive and have planned the firing sequences, shooting restrictions, and logistics down to a nat's ***. That's what you want from a professionally run competition. I have given lots of training out in the area, know it well, and know how to make your life miserable during the competition.
Hope this answers any questions. Will get the bio posted next week.
Hope you will take the time to read it.

Bruce Krell
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Mike,

I only have confirmation that he has only taught a ballistic program that he wrote at Pendelton.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

RKsimple, everyone I ever met who thought thier shit did not stink had pants full of it and a nose that did not work.

RKsimple, many try and give good training. Rifles Only, Badlands and Strom Mountain do great jobs, but tell you what next class I run. Your in for free. MY shit smells real bad but I will try and get training across in way you can learn from.

As to Comps, Vu has run as good a comp as you can hope for in California. Rifles Only runs a great comp but travel these days sucks. If RO was closer I would beg to be there every week end.

Now Jacob/RO once said something to me that has stuck in my mind as the way it should be "I want other schools to do well. I want guys to go to many schools. I will do what I can to help otehr schools out" Now honestly thats the way an instructor should handle this. Not I am a bad ass and everyone else sucks approach some seem to have..

Vu, I have taught Optics and slings at Pendeleton but that is far from an USMC 8541 Instructor. Just another dumb ass lucky enough to help out. They did not charge me to train me (No I did not attend the whole school just a couple of parts)and I never charge to help out. As I said before they dont need outside instructors. They are already damm good.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Thanks Mike. I really appreciate that. It was great getting to meet you at Vu's match.

I found it absurd that I couldn't use my TIS sling, the way it was designed, because "its just a fad and this high tech shit comes and goes." I'm waiting for him to put on a Hawken rifle only match because these newfangled smokeless cartridges won't last. They'll be out of flavor by next year.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I was tempted to contact Pendleton and ask some questions, but then I realized I really don't care. If he was a guest instructor...good on him. If he has a "honorary" certificate or "honorary" title, wonderful. He plainly states that he doesn't claim to be a Marine Sniper and that's enough for me.

As for being the "Real Deal" to me that generally indicates someone who has BTDT. Any yahoo can throw money at certification and training. It's a bit of a different matter to feel your asshole pucker when the chopper flares into that LZ and the ramp drops. If he puts on a good course, then great. Amazingly I learn stuff from people who have never fired a shot in anger, but most of them don't try to pass themselves off as anything other than an Instructor.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

RKsimple, the fad has been the USMC Issue slings for nearly two years on all USMC Sniper and DMR rifles. The US Army SF has used in various capacities since 1999. US Army has adopted as Sniper Slings on M110s issued for last year plus. I wonder how recently he has instructed?

But with that said, it comes back to attitude. No one is special and no one is the be all and end all.

I read where he said "Slings that loop around arm are prohibited" and "Spotting scopes are prohibited" I read all I need to. Stay the F away from this. I wonder how he reads Mirage without spotting scope? I mean thats how snipers are taught to judge wind when they are off square range. By his description even a 1907 sling is outlawed.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I was there.
First, let’s look at (and I am not an expert rifleman) at the idea of rifle shooting.
Here in Kalifornia there is a paucity of long distance ranges, more so when you consider out to a 1000 yards. Desert Marksman has a nice one, BUTTs and all but it is ‘flat’. And shooting at a ‘controlled’ range requires you submit to the delays that are inherent in ‘controlled range’ shooting. So the selection of this particular area was not, in and of itself, a bad choice.

Other land users? Yeah, that was a bummer but actually it is also inherent that BLM acreage is going to be shared, the comment about ‘cease fires’ was, to a degree, valid but it was an overused call as most vehicles were a good 1200+ yards out and not in a direct line of fire. There were a ‘good call’ dozen or more cease fires. So I don’t think that is any different than a ‘regular’ range allowing for changing targets.

I read somewhere about ‘making a sniper’ and this was one of the comments, “go outside on the hottest day possible wearing a winter coat. Lie in the grass and support your head with your hands while resting your elbows on the ground. “DON’T MOVE” no matter what happens do not move. Don’t scratch an itch, swat a bug or adjust your position. Do this for at least one hour. If you succeed at this you are on your way.” Being an ardent watcher of the Military Channel, I’ve watched some military sniper contests and some of their training. Dressed in a ghillie suit, dragging their weapon, the candidates had to maneuver on their bellies (for most of it) to within a certain distance, undetected, and fire a kill shot and then REMAIN undetected even after. It was hot, sweaty and, sometimes, unrewarding work and it was also FLAT. Another comment mentioned, “Snipers must have the ability to work alone and or with one other Marine. The must have great self control and patience. They have to have the ability to remain calm while all around them there might be chaos. They must be able to navigate any and all terrain using only a map and compass.” Having communicated with a Marine who now shoots in far off places, he said his training was for various angles of fire and that he was often out for several days in training just moving before he’d get a shot. Interesting. Lots of time just sitting, crawling or moving, much less to very little time shooting.

The skills of hitting any target within your rifles ability, at any angle, require some degree of the same type of patience and skill level. There were no automated or hi-tech devices allowed at this shoot. Paper, pencil, PDA (as a calculator) were allowed. Mildotting for distance figuring was allowed but there were time restraints once the ‘size’ of the target was provided (there were only three targets and having lots more would’ve just confused the mildotting efforts and made the shoot much slower [I mean, one of the poster’s comments was ‘not pulling the trigger’ for a lengthy time]. So knowing how to use your scope for calculations of distance, calculating on an extreme downhill angle and patience were all part of this shoot. I compare a few hours (which was NOT the case in most portions of this shoot) with the kind of time spent crawling, hiding and finally shooting in the military shoots and wonder. Do you want to be at a flat range, shooting at known distance targets under the usual range restraints… or did you want to see if you could hit a ‘few’ hard shots when everything is unknown? Snipers usually only get ‘one shot’. And it should be said that many of the shooters heard the instructions, found spots from which they could see, scope and hit each and every target for each and every segment of the competition and did not DQ by ‘moving’ their site. Recall, “real” snipers cannot just get up and say, “Hey fellas, hold on, gotta move here.” I think, that in future such events, “if” a group has decided that they picked a bad ‘hide’ and need to relocate they SHOULD be allowed to, but they have to crawl and drag to that new location just like they would in the ‘real world’. No getting up, grabbing a bite, bitching and moaning and then walking about ‘checking’ each possible new location until the find the one that is just right… but of course they want to move back to their original site because the next relocation of targets invalidates their ‘new position’.

I’ve been to this exact location several times. It is remote, generally completely void of vehicular or foot traffic and a great place to ‘learn’ how to use your scope for steep and distance shots. There have been a half dozen to a dozen shooters at those times and not one of them complained about the fact that targets had to be moved (which by the very nature of the terrain, takes time) or that “crap, now I can’t see it” type circumstances existed. Everyone understood the real world shooting or sniping is not consistent and targets don’t just ‘move’ to an opportune location for the shooter! It is all about surveillance and target acquisition. The majority of shooters at this event did fine with those priorities.

I’m sure some folks just don’t care for Krell or his particular personality. We are a diverse group, heck some shooters are voting for Obama! That pretty much invalidates cohesiveness and agreement. I’ve been around some of the ‘instructors’ Bruce has imported. He’s never said he went thru ‘Marine sniper school’ as a Marine or even like the Marines have to do it. He’s said that he helped develop a protocol for some of their ballistics training and asked to be allowed to participate in the training to better facilitate the ‘program’ and its creation. That is what he did and several of his guest instructors vetted that information. He’s not chest thumping. Sure, his rules can be irksome on occasion; he can be short or harsh from time to time. We’re not all here to sing CUMBAYA together. His classes are safe, run on time, provide all levels of shooters a good chance to learn and improve for very reasonable prices (have you not seen classes that charge three or four times as much ‘locally’ (Los Angeles, CA) and the instructor spends more time fawning and preening than teaching). Krell accepts criticisms, acts on them and also allows himself to be the butt of many ‘guest’ instructor’s jokes. He was polite to the few folks who most loudly bitched and complained at this shoot. There was one person who was absolutely ‘annoying’ and several other shooters came to Krell and said, “Do not ever invite him again!” So, for those who said, “What did you expect” and so forth – come to any of his classes before you judge. You have one poster who was obviously disappointed but I ask anyone to set up the logistics (just price AR500 steel prices!), program and insurance on such a shoot and include the ‘extremes’ of distance and angles and “keep everyone happy”? Proof? Make one exclusive comment on any shooters forum and watch the flames. Most of us are rather ‘extreme’ people (excepting when it comes to unity of vote) and have our own opinions and so forth. This shoot was a good test of all that ‘sniping’ entails. Patience, ballistics and skill. It was a good shoot and most of those involved came away knowing what they had to work on and improve.
That’s how I saw it… flame on.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I ain't saying anything about the shooting comp. but that picture up above is of some beautiful wide open desert. That place is magnificent (not the Jeep door picture). I know you think I'm crazy, but I'm not. (you'll notice the name my kids gave me many years ago)
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

So Roaming Doc...let me ask you this...do you think this was a bust or not? What matches have you shot in compare to this?

It's a freaking slap in the face to me as a match director and a person dedicated to providing shooters good venues to compete in that some jack ass like Bruce rips off a 100 per shooter to move 3 targets around.

3 hours between trigger time is unacceptable.

When I found about this match I almost signed up but after looking into things I was glad I didnt and my info was correct on him.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Roamingdoc-Saying that this shoot was "a good test of all that sniping entails" shows a monumental lack of understanding. Get out and shoot some better matches. From the sound of it you don't have much experience with that. Or just keep watching the military channel.

Also, you mentioned being there, but not competing. I can only guess you're one of Bruce's chronies.

Its funny how snipers can't move (let alone this match had NOTHING to do with actual "sniper" work. By your own admission, snipers usually get only one shot. So why did we shoot 4 rounds per target?). On the first page of this site doesn't say smoething about shoot, MOVE and communicate? Do you know who you're dealing with on this site?

I shoot in the desert all the time. There was NOTHING xtreme about this match. There wasn't anything hard about this match. I shot hungover (queasy so nobody thinks I was impaired), with no partner, and got DQ'ed from an entire stage and still finished second overall...and I'm not that good. A lot of the people posting about this know me, know how I am, how I shoot, and that I call things like I see them. Anyone with half a brainstem could've done better.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Couple of facts/opinons about this match: 1. Targets should have been in sight before choosing your area to shoot at. 2. The down time was way too long between each COF due to the lack of steel targets. 3. The location was superb, but it was not effeciently utilized. 4. The fee was just way too much for what is turned out to be. There should have been at least bottled water and some sandwiches at the minimum. I never been to a match this expensive without some extras thrown in like food and water. This was honestly not worth more than $40 max. 5. The COFS were pretty repetitive. It was more of a short range game in uncomfortable positions. That wasn't too extreme at all. The most xtreme shooting we had all day was shooting in 20mph crosswinds, that's about it. That in my opinion was where most people missed the targets. 6. Most people felt it was more about the promotion of the match rather than about the shooters having a good match.

I don't care about the whole Marine Sniper thing. I don't care about that. It doesn't matter. What matters is getting a real dam good match for a hundred buckaroos. That's it. The customers weren't happy, plain and simple.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

VU – ‘what matches’ – already said I was not an ‘expert rifleman’ – done some shooting with rifles, pistols are what I generally do. But I didn’t understand that you were entering the conversation with the idea that “Krell” was a “jack ass”? That doesn’t appear to be an impartial perspective. There was not ‘3 hours’ between trigger pulls. ‘If’ it happened once, it was an anomaly. Most of each segments lasted about 1 ½ hours and there were 16 or 17 shooters pulling triggers independently. It was not a bust. Many of the shooters enjoyed and “learned”. The very few, and they were ‘negatively’ directed by one who started to ‘talk it all up’, complained but did shoot and I’d bet also learned something, even if it was they didn’t want to do it again. ‘Experience is a dear school’.

RK – I’ve a ‘monumental lack of understanding’. Wow… but you shot “hungover”. Let me see, “hungover” or “you say” I exhibit a monumental lack of understanding. Coming to a shoot, any shoot, hungover is a monumental lack of many things.

Pistol, wind was a real issue. I watched the clock and noted most got from nine to twelve shots about every 1 ½ hr. I’ll have to try another class and see, given a ‘match’ condition where there are 16 or 17 contestants, moved or placed targets (more than one), and timed and scored shots for ‘each’ contestant’ how long it takes when the shooters are not on a line nor located at some specific known location where things go ‘one two three’.

My original comment was that, “snipers” appear (from my study and communications) to shoot from a variety of ‘imperfect’ locations, must be patient, must be ready to be denied access and ‘move’ (recall I suggested that ‘bad’ initial hides should be allowed to crawl out of and relocate so we are in agreement on movement, type is in question) and that periods of inactivity are inherent in that field. The added impediment of downhill, wind and ‘other people’ present just added to the degree of difficulty. Most shooters had a partner, so under a beautiful and comfortable sky in a remarkable remote and pristine desert location, you had trigger time, education (to whatever degree you wanted) and ‘buddy chat’. You even got to drive rough roads. It even rained. I got to meet some decent folks and renew some acquaintances. We've got a couple folks not happy. Perhaps this needs (the class) needs to be re-titled "Downhill Shooting in the Desert"? But then again the Marine sniper I talk to says he 'sits' in the desert (albeit higher mountains) with his buddy waiting for hours on a single target that is 'supposed' to be there. Crap, I don't know.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Roaming, a few things not from TV.

Snipers move. They dont shoot from one position for more than one or two shots. You shoot, you move to new FFP. Basic fact of sniping

Snipers set up and use spotting scopes for ID of target and for reading wind, when they have time

Biggest name in USMC Sniping Carlos Hathcock used a Loop Sling to make his most famous shot of all time on NVA General at 800 yards

Snipers Hide has many snipers on it.

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Yes, you have a huge lack of understanding, Roamingdoc. There are more than a couple folks that aren't happy. You didn't shoot the match did you? You were the one up top with the bum leg helping Bruce spot, right? Did you get paid for helping?

And answer Vu's question. What other matches have you shot in against which to compare this one?

I wasn't impaired in any way. What difference did it make that I had an upset stomach? Apparently not much.

Stick to your "studies" and the military channel. You're way out of your league.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

So basically you have 0 experience. Why dont you take some time and read around in the Competition forum and see how many other fiascos like this one exist.

So all day to shoot 4 stages and 50 rounds? That is WITHOUT movement from one FFP to the next. You serious? Really?

And having the match stopped because people were down range? Really now?

As for me calling Bruce a jackass...I believe rightfully so for ripping off a few guys I call friends and fellow shooters.

Trust me I really was hoping I was wrong about this one..it would of given shooters in CA one more venue to compete in.



 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Roaming, a few things not from TV or spewed from some guys ass.

Snipers move. They dont shoot from one position for more than one or two shots. You shoot, you move to new FFP. Basic fact of sniping

Snipers set up and use spotting scopes for ID of target and for reading wind, when they have time

Biggest name in USMC Sniping Carlos Hathcock used a Loop Sling to make his most famous shot of all time on NVA General at 800 yards

Snipers Hide has many snipers on it.

</div></div>

Mike,

As for spotting scopes this is the response I got from Bruce...

"The reason for disallowing spotting scopes is that you will be spotting through the
rifle scope while your shooter is shooting. This makes it a bit harder to call adjustments,
increasing the difficulty of the competition and increasing the reality of the competition.

When I was at the Sniper School, spotting scopes were used on the range and for
assessment of a geographic area -- scan the area, draw maps.

But, during missions, the spotter was always spotting through a rifle scope.
You take a shot and then you move quickly. You don't want to be sitting there
in case the bad guys come looking for you. No time to pack up a spotting scope and
a tripod. Shoot and get out of Dodge."
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


You take a shot and then you move quickly. You don't want to be sitting there
in case the bad guys come looking for you. No time to pack up a spotting scope and
a tripod. Shoot and get out of Dodge." </div></div>

What...the...fuck? Snipers MOVE? This just keeps getting better.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Vu,

check this out bro.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"this is for general reading guys, Vu already knows what I am about to say"</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"The reason for disallowing spotting scopes is that you will be spotting through the rifle scope while your shooter is shooting. This makes it a bit harder to call adjustments, increasing the difficulty of the competition and increasing the reality of the competition.
</div></div>

I find the opposite to be true.

Why, most spotters do not have a reticle in them. So if I wanted to jack a person around I would give them a piece of glass without a unit of measure in it.

Call me crazy, but spotting a splash with a reticle in MOA or Mil is VERY easy to make my corrections.

With out one, the only real accurate way is to give corrections in target size.

John
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

With out one, the only real accurate way is to give corrections in target size.




....my eyeballs are mildot calibrated........
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Tactical – I’ve made my bones, real life. Just not with a rifle. So mine is not TV.
RK – “you” said “hungover”. No matter.
VU – as said, a ‘rifle’ is not the only weapon. I’ve made the decision in real life.
You come from a very nice range with lots of sponsors and prizes, support. Walk out 2.5 km or so and bring your gear. All that is great as I am 100% in favor of ‘shooters’ and 2nd Amend supporters as those joys could be in jeopardy. My suggestion is that this was a real rugged venue, real hills and remote. Skills were required to make the hits even if some folks felt they could’ve done better if they weren’t hungover. It was windy (no fault of anyone) and it took time to change the targets (your fine range had a large number of ‘helpers’ during the last shoot and looked flat)… there were some 17 shooters. You have heard from two (as I was a spotter only – an ‘no’ RK, I was not paid!) and while it was, certainly, not perfect, there were many content shooters.
VU – Krell offers some good classes besides this one and I’ve attended some (and other classes by other instructors over some 43 years of shooting) and he does offer good instruction, good learning curve and good facilities. I ask only as a balance, ‘have you attended one?’ – I certainly would never judge you, Shaw or Thomas without taking a class or two. Even if two people said something subjective. Just a professional courtesy.
As this thread seems to be driven by one or two disgruntled and possible hungover posters and I was there and disagree, I see no reason to respond. All things considered, the class obviously disappointed a few. I’ve never experienced 'everyone' being happy with anything.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I'll add my .2 here...I have never seen a sniper take a shot at a target he can't see...if it is out of my area of operation then I FREAKING MOVE!!!

As both a military and LE sniper for nearly 12 years, I could not even imagine someone who claims to instruct LE advising me to take a shot at a target that I can't see clearly. How do you identify the target as a threat without being able to see it. Boy I'd love to see the lawyers have a field day with that one!!!

But according to Bruce's logic it was my fault for picking a bad spot...what if I could not have seen the targets at all, should I just accept a 0. It was my choice to move and take a DQ. I don't shoot comps for the prizes and prestige...I shoot them for training!!!

I'll be damned if I'm paying $100 to not shoot!!!
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Oh shit, here comes another unhappy competitor. Watch out Roamndoc! He's hungover too!

And we don't have to take classes from someone to realize he's a poser. Thats why we do our homework. I was warned about Bruce, his claims, and this match. I should've heeded these warnings.

Please keep posting as it further confirms our suspicion that you don't know shit.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Ryan what was randall saying again? There are people who are shooters and people that go shooting? something like that right?
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Something like that. He's another one that thought it sucked ass. He doesn't post here. Same with Wes. There are a number of guys upset with what a poser match this was.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Sounds like a joke to me. Glad my 100 is going to suport some slutly girls to goto school..... AKA strip club!
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Roaming, my comments where directed at your knowledge of sniping which you clearly stated was from watching the History Channel. In short from TV. In this case I only care about bones made with a rifle. If I have need of knowledge about being a Doctor I wont watch TV show and tell you how it is. Fair enough? I get the feeling my "earned bones" in Sniper Field can compare OK with yours

 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roamingdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tactical – I’ve made my bones, real life. Just not with a rifle. So mine is not TV.
RK – “you” said “hungover”. No matter.
VU – as said, a ‘rifle’ is not the only weapon. I’ve made the decision in real life.
You come from a very nice range with lots of sponsors and prizes, support. Walk out 2.5 km or so and bring your gear. All that is great as I am 100% in favor of ‘shooters’ and 2nd Amend supporters as those joys could be in jeopardy. My suggestion is that this was a real rugged venue, real hills and remote. Skills were required to make the hits even if some folks felt they could’ve done better if they weren’t hungover. It was windy (no fault of anyone) and it took time to change the targets (your fine range had a large number of ‘helpers’ during the last shoot and looked flat)… there were some 17 shooters. You have heard from two (as I was a spotter only – an ‘no’ RK, I was not paid!) and while it was, certainly, not perfect, there were many content shooters.
VU – Krell offers some good classes besides this one and I’ve attended some (and other classes by other instructors over some 43 years of shooting) and he does offer good instruction, good learning curve and good facilities. I ask only as a balance, ‘have you attended one?’ – I certainly would never judge you, Shaw or Thomas without taking a class or two. Even if two people said something subjective. Just a professional courtesy.
As this thread seems to be driven by one or two disgruntled and possible hungover posters and I was there and disagree, I see no reason to respond. All things considered, the class obviously disappointed a few. I’ve never experienced 'everyone' being happy with anything.
</div></div>

RoamingDoc..why learn from Bruce what I can learn from the folks that have taught him......

Just because my bio does not list every single class or course or every intructor that I have trained under does not mean jack.

Rugged? Really? SO boys..how much humping did you do while not allowed to move? Did you guys drive to the shooting location or did you shoot withing a few yards of the cars? Those lawn chairs behind the spotting scopes look PRETTY COMFY to me.

You want to talk about professional courtesy....how about not ripping off the shooters? How about going to a few of these comps before putting on XTREME SNIPER MATCH.

As for weapon systems and you having to make that decision in real life....gold star for you...a lot of men here have also...I am LUCKY to not be one of them. You keep on drinking the cool aid.
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I bet you didnt know rifles come chambered in other calibers except 30's.. Its very fascinating huh!
 
Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Rugged? Really? SO boys..how much humping did you do while not allowed to move? Did you guys drive to the shooting location or did you shoot withing a few yards of the cars? Those lawn chairs behind the spotting scopes look PRETTY COMFY to me.

</div></div>

My car was a whopping 50 yards or so from my FFP. I had a hard time carrying my gunslinger, laden with rifle and all, to my position across the xtreme terrain. I almost died. No shit.