Zero POI change in different positions?

[ToddM]

First I admit I'm not a competitive rifle shooter, I just enjoy shooting and as we all do like to shoot more accurately.

My brain was pondering something the other day (it's a frequent drawback to being a scientist) that made me curious how competition rifle shooters handle this issue. Perhaps through training it's a non-issue for them.

So the issue is I've noticed, and of course read about on here that your POI can change depending on your position (and even your projectile velocity). Say shooting off a bench with a nice front/rear bag rest, bipod off the bench, and prone off a bipod. I've noticed this as I've tried to improve my shooting from a bipod, so in the same range session, same gun I might shoot 1" groups in all 3 of those positions, but I notice a POI change vertically across all 3. Honestly I don't remember which was higher/lower but overall I'd say I saw at least a 1" shift vertically, not enough left/right to notice in the group sizes. I can imagine that in PRS there are lots of awkward/hard positions, positions where free recoil might be ideal, positions that are similar to bench shooting etc. that there also can be variation in those.

My question I guess is how do PRS etc. shooters deal with this issue? Is it simply something that you learn over time that if I have a stage shooting essentially from a bench that my "zero" is 1/2" higher than if I'm prone from a bipod and extrapolate that over distance?

Thanks

 

[OREGUN]

We train until it doesn’t happen.

 

[Little_Fish]

Look up Rifle Kraft and start listening to Chris’ podcast. He has a lot to teach people. I’m very new to PRS and he’s helped me a ton.

 

[Lowlight]

Yes it Happens

See: Service Rifle

You can actually tune your position, so the zero is balanced in the center.

It's mostly recoil management we can see it with people and fix a lot of it, but from Prone to Standing, say off a Tripod, there is usually a .1 between it, sometimes .2 depending on the setup

 

[Lowlight]

PS. You have to shoot paper for it to show up properly

Paper is the easiest way to see it, and work to fix it, as well as tune it out,

You have to use Paper

 

[OREGUN]

Yes it Happens

See: Service Rifle

You can actually tune your position, so the zero is balanced in the center.

It's mostly recoil management we can see it with people and fix a lot of it, but from Prone to Standing, say off a Tripod, there is usually a .1 between it, sometimes .2 depending on the setup

@lowlight: is that in part related to service rifle sights and rifle balance?

To be clear, I did not say it doesn’t happen. He asked about PRS (balanced gun, scope with parallax adjustment, probably a brake, probably smallish caliber) and I think he should be able to train until his POA = POI from every position given those parameters. On a Kraft target, there’s no reason your impacts should get outside of the colored, inner diamond, just because you go from sitting to prone. If you are pushing all your standing shots to the left edge, compared to prone that hits in the middle, you need to work on your standing inputs. No?

 

[Lowlight]

Sight Height can be part of it

From standing to prone is some rifles, there is an issue, due to sight height

But to your point, yes there is a marksmanship element to the shot, where the shooter will pull the rifle back and raise the muzzle and their POI will change, that is different than the offset from the system, which can happen, but you are correct, it should stay within the center of a Kraft target

I did one that way but it started to drift out so I realigned my zero .1 and it cleans you up nicely. Again shooting a 1 MOA paper target and not a 2-3MOA steel plate that just needs a touch.

 

[Precision Underground]

This is mainly why it happens IMO. When you’re in different positions the rifle interacts with you in a different way before the bullet leaves the barrel. The key is to make the rifle interact with you as consistently as possible. If you have a 15lb cheek weld when you’re prone and then you stand up and lean your body weight into the rifle on a barricade the rifle is going to react much differently between those two positions. Credit to Bryan Litz for the vid.

 

[Lowlight]

Recoil management tells the bullet where the barrel is upon release

 

[Newbie2020]

This is mainly why it happens IMO. When you’re in different positions the rifle interacts with you in a different way before the bullet leaves the barrel. The key is to make the rifle interact with you as consistently as possible. If you have a 15lb cheek weld when you’re prone and then you stand up and lean your body weight into the rifle on a barricade the rifle is going to react much differently between those two positions. Credit to Bryan Litz for the vid.

That’s cool. I’d like to see more videos like that. That explains a lot.

 

[Precision Underground]

That’s cool. I’d like to see more videos like that. That explains a lot.

It’s a perfect visual for why recoil management matters. Ppl think recoil management is just about staying on target so they throw a brake on and call it good. But removing recoil and managing recoil are not the same thing. There’s no free ride via equipment. The fundamentals required to stay on target, using a rifle with actual recoil, are the exact same fundamentals that bring consistency from day-to-day and position-to-position. This is what gives someone the ability to pick up any rifle and shoot well from any reasonable position. Being able to do this is the definition of being a good shooter IMO.

Don’t confuse shooting better groups with becoming a better shooter. It’s counter intuitive but if you really want to become a better shooter, forget the target, take the brake off, and use recoil management as a gauge to see how you’re doing. You can shoot good groups with bad fundamentals but you’ll never control real recoil without good fundamentals.

 

[Lowlight]

It’s why in our class and in our talk we (Marc and I ) talk about creating clones.

We focus on the shooter and building them the perfect body position that is repeatable for them and with reps we build consistency

It’s why we talk about building Clones as a way to build the shooter