• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

  • Site updates coming next Wednesday at 8am CT!

    The site will be down for routine maintenance on Wednesday 6/5 starting at 8am CT. If you have any questions, please PM alexj-12!

FBI Sniper Rifles

There is actually a really strong use case for 6mm ARC (or something similar) in Recce type rifles. There is an awareness that the standard issue rifles really underperform starting at 90 - 110 yards, because the ammo no longer consistently expands, a byproduct of velocity loss due to short barrels. So having a "transitional" set up that is still light weight but delivering ~80 grain expanding rounds at 2200+ FPS has a lot of value.
Can you elaborate on this and cite examples please? Also please elaborate ammo use, LE agency and the specific failure. Military I suppose would be applicable too, but then we're talking about an FMJ, green tip or OTM 5.56 round, not open air or barrier specific law enforcement ammunition.

I am curious because Speer Gold Dot 223, a very common LE duty use round in 14.5-16" Patrol Carbines, (basically recce style) seems to work well at the ranges you mention. It is marketed and tested as having full expansion until 1800-1900 fps, which even with Speer's inflated velocities and BC should give reliable expansion to 250-300 yards/meters dependant on barrel length.
 
Can you elaborate on this and cite examples please? Also please elaborate ammo use, LE agency and the specific failure. Military I suppose would be applicable too, but then we're talking about an FMJ, green tip or OTM 5.56 round, not open air or barrier specific law enforcement ammunition.

I am curious because Speer Gold Dot 223, a very common LE duty use round in 14.5-16" Patrol Carbines, (basically recce style) seems to work well at the ranges you mention. It is marketed and tested as having full expansion until 1800-1900 fps, which even with Speer's inflated velocities and BC should give reliable expansion to 250-300 yards/meters dependant on barrel length.
Speaking specifically to FBI sniper rifles, the 168SMK with a MV of 2450-ish isn’t an authoritative barrier round.

And, the FBI’s 11.5” carbines are not exactly long range weapons with plenty of terminal performance, either.
 
Speaking specifically to FBI sniper rifles, the 168SMK with a MV of 2450-ish isn’t an authoritative barrier round.

And, the FBI’s 11.5” carbines are not exactly long range weapons with plenty of terminal performance, either.
Agreed, might be an inappropriate tangent for the thread but I was looking for clarification specifically to @epeet's comment regarding Recce "standard" carbines not having been very effective past 90-120 yards, thus necessitating a move to 6 ARC. That has not been my experience with shooting real stuff with good 223 bullets and "recce" length guns, which I consider to be in the 14.5-16" guns typical to most patrol rifles.

Obviously if you're using a 10.3" or even 11.5" at 250-300 yards it's probably not optimal, especially with bullet selection and the likely optic to be on that type of setup. I don't really regard those lengths as "Recce" though, more of an entry gun.

My understading is specialty units in Iraq/AFG were often issued a 10.3 MK 18 style upper AND a 14.5" Recce style upper/optic combo and could tailor their carbine to the mission and environment.

As to the main idea of switching to 6.5 CM "cuz the Feds did" @Terry Cross has already answered this in several threads and is arguably one of the best resources on the subject. 308 "specialty" ammo for LE use is proven and well documented as far as what works for barrier/vs open air.

As you said Skunk, a 168SMK is not really ideal for anything duty related these days besides practice, much better options in the .30 flavor for shooting baddies.
 
There is actually a really strong use case for 6mm ARC (or something similar) in Recce type rifles. There is an awareness that the standard issue rifles really underperform starting at 90 - 110 yards, because the ammo no longer consistently expands, a byproduct of velocity loss due to short barrels. So having a "transitional" set up that is still light weight but delivering ~80 grain expanding rounds at 2200+ FPS has a lot of value.

Which is not the problem you are generally trying to solve with U.S. LE sniper rifles. There you need accuracy, dependability, and bullet construction that lends itself to ignoring glass and other light barriers. 6.5 CM doesn't move the needle on any of the things you need (less recoil maybe?), until you start discussing engagement distances of 300 Y +. And that just isn't a thing, mostly because you can't positively ID at those distances (usually), you're in urban settings (usually), the subject is in/near a residence (usually).

But the problem is that everyone is doing long range cross training, or trying to "stretch their legs" at distance, and realizing that in terms of "hits on steel", 6.5 CM is a better option. But that is also how the German Artillery in WWII ended up carrying long barreled 9mm Lugers instread of rifles - they were getting similar hit percentages at distance. No one stopped to check if the bullet was performing as demanded. .308 has a long and documented performance in this role. It may still be that 6.5 CM is an adequate choice, but you can also argue that .300 WSM, or 7mm-08, or a million other cartridges need to be looked at.

This is pretty much exactly what I've figured, based on current state of the art, use purposes, and legal/operational considerations. There's tremendous value in trying new things...but risking lives in the process isn't worth it, and the juice has to be worth the squeezing.
 
This rumor keeps popping every so often that the Bu might switch it up lol. I just can't imagine the FBI Sniper program going away from 308 for a loooong time. HRT is a different animal and not relevant to the caliber switch discussion, because they can, have, and will continue to do whatever the hell they feel like. And the recce/DMR rifle suggestion gets finagled every few years, I myself having tried and failed, and dies out at local levels. The Assault side and Sniper side will never hash out how to train and employ (cough *control) such a thing...despite the military having pretty easily delineated the duties many years ago and some STLs being able to intuit the difference.

Anyways, here's why they won't switch: because money. The performance is the current correct response, but it will one day evaporate to an excuse as bullet tech progresses. Then you're left with talking about the largest Sniper group outside the DOD. To rebarrel every rifle, with a roadshow or contract or as they sift through schools, and supply new training AND duty ammo under ever-rising costs...plus redo whatever testing they feel they need data on for the legal side...oh and right after they blew a huge wad to finally go suppressed. Plus regular maintenance on that dogshirt gun and all the aging equipment like 22s. Shiitttttt...the Sniper program is the red headed stepchild of that whole clusterfuke anyways. Its 308. It will remain 308. And from all I've seen that is actually just fine!

But its funding. The Bu swat snipers don't got it like that. They never will. 308 is the answer and it will remain their answer probably a decade after it maybe shouldn't be.
 
Can you elaborate on this and cite examples please? Also please elaborate ammo use, LE agency and the specific failure. Military I suppose would be applicable too, but then we're talking about an FMJ, green tip or OTM 5.56 round, not open air or barrier specific law enforcement ammunition.

I am curious because Speer Gold Dot 223, a very common LE duty use round in 14.5-16" Patrol Carbines, (basically recce style) seems to work well at the ranges you mention. It is marketed and tested as having full expansion until 1800-1900 fps, which even with Speer's inflated velocities and BC should give reliable expansion to 250-300 yards/meters dependant on barrel length.
From what we see, I agree.
Current 5.56 loadings are performing well inside the intended envelope of deployment.

Lots of patrol carbines used in L.E. are indeed Recce style rifles but they are very unlikely to be used past the 200yd threshold.

Past that and you start committing too many sins that aren't kosher in U.S. L.E.
P.I.D.'ing the target, confirming backstop and what no-shoot bodies are proximate to the target will range from difficult to impossible especially with the red dot and LPVO sights typically run on those rifles.

Keeping in the context of the thread it is a non-issue.

6 ARC and other magic to use in the Recce / all-round carbine roll has already been heavily discussed in the Semi-Auto Rifles subforum.
 
  • Like
Reactions: verdugo60
This rumor keeps popping every so often that the Bu might switch it up lol. I just can't imagine the FBI Sniper program going away from 308 for a loooong time. HRT is a different animal and not relevant to the caliber switch discussion, because they can, have, and will continue to do whatever the hell they feel like. And the recce/DMR rifle suggestion gets finagled every few years, I myself having tried and failed, and dies out at local levels. The Assault side and Sniper side will never hash out how to train and employ (cough *control) such a thing...despite the military having pretty easily delineated the duties many years ago and some STLs being able to intuit the difference.

Anyways, here's why they won't switch: because money. The performance is the current correct response, but it will one day evaporate to an excuse as bullet tech progresses. Then you're left with talking about the largest Sniper group outside the DOD. To rebarrel every rifle, with a roadshow or contract or as they sift through schools, and supply new training AND duty ammo under ever-rising costs...plus redo whatever testing they feel they need data on for the legal side...oh and right after they blew a huge wad to finally go suppressed. Plus regular maintenance on that dogshirt gun and all the aging equipment like 22s. Shiitttttt...the Sniper program is the red headed stepchild of that whole clusterfuke anyways. Its 308. It will remain 308. And from all I've seen that is actually just fine!

But its funding. The Bu swat snipers don't got it like that. They never will. 308 is the answer and it will remain their answer probably a decade after it maybe shouldn't be.
IMG_2046.jpeg
 
Not sure. I’ve never actually met him.

I think the last disc I got from BRF in 2019 didn’t have any 6.5mm info.
I know him and stay in contact.
I believe he stays in contact with the lab and he stays active doing some teaching on the side since retiring.

I will hit him up and see what he might can provide.
If I get anything of substance, I will share to you.
 
As of late, I've had several people at work suggest we should swap platforms to 6.5 Creedmoor or 6mm ARC "because the FBI snipers are switching over to it".

Has anyone else heard this claim anywhere? I see vanishingly little value to swapping away from .308 for duty use, and yet the Need New Caliber bug is in full outbreak mode...
The only reason to swap away from .308 is so that you have extreme extended range. NOT likely in the law enforcement world.
 
The only reason to swap away from .308 is so that you have extreme extended range. NOT likely in the law enforcement world.

I know there's been more than a few LE departments that have swapped over to 6.5 Creedmoor.

I think some of the arguments are to obtain higher sectional density in projectiles and better ballistics, but it seems like an academic argument more than anything else. In reality, I can't imagine the 6.5 Creedmoor does anything the .308 can't in an LE role.

I've never been LE, so I'll leave it to others to argue over this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j-huskey and Modoc
I've been in LE a few days, I've seen heads canoed by LE with 357, 12 gauge, 223 62 Grain Fed Trophy Bonded, and 308 gmm...
I've seen other canoe results with different calibers in other places. A canoed head is a canoed head no matter the caliber, and none survived that divisive intrusion.... just sayin...
I've participated in some Semi-Thompson LaGarde type testing on living critter heads and see zero difference in 6.5c vs 308 on them.
I've shot glass with both, car doors, house doors, walls, and through woody brush.
There are more specific rounds useful to LE in 308 than 6.5c at this point in current factory loadings, this can change, yes it can.
Only problem with this is, to get a better nuanced view of this, is surviving the aftermath of shooting citizens of the republic with 6.5c to get enough data to compare with 308 data on file..
I'm not interested in being any part of that, just sayin.... I'm happily separating me from all that, doesn't pay well enough to keep me there...
Best to all of you with a vested interest in that job.
Cheerzzzz....
 
So, I heard back from BRF today. They no longer send out discs containing the ballistic data. It’s all posted in LEEP (not sure if this system is available to state/local LE) and is constantly updated. But, I had to make a trip to Alpine and back today, so I haven’t gotten a chance to take a look at things yet. Monday….
 
  • Like
Reactions: j-huskey
In reality, I can't imagine the 6.5 Creedmoor does anything the .308 can't in an LE role.
.308 will win for a long time just on the overall cost factor alone and with 99.9% of LE sniper shootings occurring at distances and circumstances where 6.5 Creedmoor’s only advantage is marginally reduced recoil, there’s no real need to change. .308 has around twice the barrel life and the ammo cost roughly the same per round as 6.5 Creedmoor and there are agencies that buy new rifles instead of re-barreling existing ones when a new barrel is needed for “liability” reasons. It only makes sense for an agency to go with 6.5 Creedmoor right now if they have a need for enhanced range capability or increased penetration over a .308 without going to a magnum round. I just can’t think of a realistic scenario where that’s even needed in LE use in the US right now outside of maybe Alaska. No clue at all if there’s been any officer involved shooting involving a grizzly bear or moose where a 12 gauge, 5.56, or .308 haven’t been adequate.
 
So, I got access to all of the ballistic test data comparing 308 Win to 6.5 Creedmoor as it relates to terminal performance in the LE setting. The data speaks for itself, but the most impressive piece of this, for me, was the email that came with the data stating, “a Law Enforcement agency choosing 6.5Creed over 308 would be a huge mistake.”

That’s a pretty bold statement and about all I can put out on a forum.

If any of you who are interested want to send me a PM and provide an official LE agency email, I can probably send specifics.
 
So, I got access to all of the ballistic test data comparing 308 Win to 6.5 Creedmoor as it relates to terminal performance in the LE setting. The data speaks for itself, but the most impressive piece of this, for me, was the email that came with the data stating, “a Law Enforcement agency choosing 6.5Creed over 308 would be a huge mistake.”

That’s a pretty bold statement and about all I can put out on a forum.

If any of you who are interested want to send me a PM and provide an official LE agency email, I can probably send specifics.
It's like all the old, "This vs. That" arguments about caliber. The 6.5 has plenty of energy to do what it needs as far as terminal performance. It doesn't really shine until well past the 'safety' range of law enforcement. The .308 works fine out to that range and some beyond. So changing to something that works better at a distance you can't use it to is pointless.
 
I don’t think energy is the issue. I think velocity is shredding bullets within typical LE engagement distances.
 
No one wants to see the fbi sniper pistol...

Kinetic energy of 308 is going to edge out 6.5 inside of like 4 or 500 yards anyways. Not that 6.5 doesn't have enough of it to do work...its just not gonna win til you're at a distance where deadly force is wildly unlikely to be justified. With a good bullet applied correctly...anyways that's all been said.