Geissele Mid Range Gas Gun for the low price of $6,500

[Thorbeast]

I'm a bit skeptical of the 5k+ round, .5 moa claim. Will the chrome lining on the bore hold up? Nothing against bill or G, l hope it does pan out, but I feel like we've heard this claim before. I'm just a skeptical person, show me, don't tell me.

6500 actually doesn't sound too bad, if this is a limited release prototype collectible item. I'm clearly not the target market, but that market does exist and this product will move at that price for this piece of history.

If 6500 is the price for the retail market, it's going to be a tough sell. At some point buyers are concerned about value, not just absolute performance, or we'd all be driving 911 turbos and shooting AXSRs and atlas 2011s. Not that there is anything wrong with AXSRs, 911s or atlas 2011s, they have a place in the market, but they aren't for everyone and that's okay. Low retail volume doesn't make them a failure. And there is nothing wrong with the people who don't see the value.

I hope this barrel voodoo pans out, but I don't think the laws of thermodynamics have changed...

And I think lightweight, large frame guns are overrated. I don't think weight will be a hurdle for commercial success for this rifle. I used to be in the lightweight large frame camp... but a lightweight (6.5#) build with a mounted scope (2-3#) and loaded magazine (2#) and sling (.5# with QD swivels) is still going to be 11-12 lbs. IMO there isn't much of a difference between a 12# rifle and 14# rifle. I'd gladly carry the extra 2# to not have to compromise on barrel weight/furniture/ergonomics/optic selection. Just embrace the functionality and weight of a large frame DMR/MRGG. It's not a LW carbine, and that's okay, it's s not supposed to be.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Personally the most interesting thing to me with the MRGG is the changes to feeding geometry that keeps bullets from getting damaged during the process. If anyone’s ever used a gas gun for precision then you know the tendencies to throw fliers. And in their testing data, that was the leading cause. I spent a whole day with the thing and every round landed where it was supposed to, sub moa, with factory ammo. It was impressive. Whats that is worth to you is your choice, but at matches these days, the whole thing is won or lost by a point or two so to me it is worth the price of admission considering I’ll spend 1/5 the price of a gun, in travel, lodging, ammo and match fees to go to a match.

Can you share any details on the barrel nut/extension and what sets it apart? I'd have to imagine whatever they're doing there has a big part to play in the accuracy of the rifle - stiffness of the barrel mounting system..??

 

[Patty]

Can you share any details on the barrel nut/extension and what sets it apart? I'd have to imagine whatever they're doing there has a big part to play in the accuracy of the rifle - stiffness of the barrel mounting system..??

I am not sure specifically about what they’ve done and I didn’t pry for specifics because ultimately I don’t care what it is, If the result down range is favorable. I’m a shooter not an engineer, but I can tell you by peering into the extension, and seeing how feeding happens under slow motion, the geometry change is apparent.

 

[GUNNER10]

Let's start with barrels.

Lmt cut rifle 6.5cm barrel is probally good good for 2500 before you need to pull it due to accuracy degradation and/or velocity loss. They run $700ish per. The new g barrels will last atleast 2-3 times as long while still holding half moa, something lmt cannot even guarantee on a new barrel with factory ammo.

Start adding up replacement barrel costs and the price gap shrinks. And that is not even getting into the other improved areas of the gun like the can,ect.

It's easy to make a bunch of assumptions when you have no experience with the gun nor understand how gov solicitations work.

LoL...

No test data has been released so its a little silly to imply what one rifles bore erosion did compared to another. Can you expand on what makes the G barrel notable.

Using phrases like the LMT will "Probably" be shot out at 2500rds, and " the G will last "at least" seem to indicate that there is no real data one either of those extremes.

has anybody actually shot a 10K test cycle on either a LMT or G barrel, and after X amount of times measured for bore erosion, or is this the guys version of your gucci purse is better than my LV purse?

While I am sure you are up to date on how gov solicitations work, I have to remind you, thats the process that was responsible for giving us the Sig M17/M18, XM7 which we can all agree is a trainwreck.

I think what we are seeing here is the 2023 version of the overly ambiguous claims that were in the past made regarding stuff from Hodge Defense and Larue.

I am not even making the argument that I think the Geiselle is in any way a bad rifle, just that it feels overpriced compared to ever other large frame gas gun. While I am a really big fan of Gieselle triggers, i am not sure that I believe that barrel on the 6.5 gas gun barrel on the planet.

 

[Patty]

LoL...

No test data has been released so its a little silly to imply what one rifles bore erosion did compared to another. Can you expand on what makes the G barrel notable.

Using phrases like the LMT will "Probably" be shot out at 2500rds, and " the G will last "at least" seem to indicate that there is no real data one either of those extremes.

has anybody actually shot a 10K test cycle on either a LMT or G barrel, and after X amount of times measured for bore erosion, or is this the guys version of your gucci purse is better than my LV purse?

the differences between a cut rifled, un lined barrel and a chrome lined barrel in terms of barrel life aren’t exactly a secret.

Erosion is also not an indicator of whether a barrel is shot out or not. Does anyone care wether or not a barrel has 10 thou of erosion or 100 thou if its still shooting well?

 

[GUNNER10]

Personally the most interesting thing to me with the MRGG is the changes to feeding geometry that keeps bullets from getting damaged during the process. If anyone’s ever used a gas gun for precision then you know the tendencies to throw fliers. And in their testing data, that was the leading cause. I spent a whole day with the thing and every round landed where it was supposed to, sub moa, with factory ammo. It was impressive. Whats that is worth to you is your choice, but at matches these days, the whole thing is won or lost by a point or two so to me it is worth the price of admission considering I’ll spend 1/5 the price of a gun, in travel, lodging, ammo and match fees to go to a match.

If Gieselle has figured out a way to reduce flyers, that's awesome.

 

[Patty]

If Gieselle has figured out a way to reduce flyers, that's awesome.

It seems to me that they have, both the rifles we had out that day had a total lack of them and we were shooting out to 1000+yds. I personally would have at least expected some if not from anything but usage of factory ammo. But the black hills 140 Berger hybrid stuff we were using was equally bonkers. We played a game of Horse, which there will be footage of at some point, picking targets and calling shots, one shooter with a custom bolt gun and one with an MRGG and we had to stop playing because nobody was missing and we would have been out there all day.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Well... if Geissele can translate the performance of that rifle into widespread mass production, it'll be a helluva platform, indeed!

 

[Soulezoo]

I like turtles.

 

[Patty]

Well... if Geissele can translate the performance of that rifle into widespread mass production, it'll be a helluva platform, indeed!

That’s my hope as well

 

[ZuluPrecision]

.

 

[Patty]

Ok I will jump in here.

To address the numerous (majority of posts in this thread) cost, business practice, and personal feelings are not what I am looking at.

The barrel being “different” is being argued, although not overly well. So if we assume there is something different about the barrel my question is regarding bolt geometry.

This page is full of threads about 6ARC and Grendel breaking or damaging bolts. Bolt thrust seems to be the Achilles heel. Does anyone know if the “Joy” addresses that or handles it differently? Claims of 1k-5k round tests are pretty impressive but did the bolts survive?

Secondly, from what I know of ARC, running a 200-400 rds match without a malfunction or constant cleaning is rare. Did Joy address this?

Not complaining if they didn’t, just very curious if anyone knows (not thinks) anything about these

-Devon

you are aware this rifle is not chambered in 6 arc, correct?

 

[ZuluPrecision]

That’s my hope as well.

you are aware this rifle is not chambered in 6 arc, correct?

I know they are working on two different rifles using the new gas block and barrel.

I may have misunderstood - it was my understanding that the “Joy” is the new GFR in ARC. And it was based / shares tech from the MRGG in 6.5?

 

[Patty]

I know they are working on two different rifles using the new gas block and barrel.

I may have misunderstood - it was my understanding that the “Joy” is the new GFR in ARC. And it was based / shares tech from the MRGG in 6.5?

They aren’t the same rifle. The GFR is the small frame 6 arc. The Joy, was a large frame 6.5 creedmoor that pre dates the MRGG. Neither the Joy nor the GFR are what is being discussed here. Nothing about the barrel being different is being argued, it’s a chrome lined hammer forged barrel. I’m not sure what thread you read, but it doesn’t sound like this one.

 

[ZuluPrecision]

They aren’t the same rifle. The GFR is the small frame 6 arc. The Joy, was a large frame 6.5 creedmoor that pre dates the MRGG. Neither the Joy nor the GFR are what is being discussed here. Nothing about the barrel being different is being argued, it’s a chrome lined hammer forged barrel. I’m not sure what thread you read, but it doesn’t sound like this one.

My bad. And thank you for the correction

 

[Patty]

My bad. And thank you for the correction

I can address some of what you said though I don’t want to derail this thread. I do have personal experience with the GFR. As well as other 6 arcs. None of the GFRs we’ve shot in many many matches experience the issues you describe.

 

[TheOE800]

I can address some of what you said though I don’t want to derail this thread. I do have personal experience with the GFR. As well as other 6 arcs. None of the GFRs we’ve shot in many many matches experience the issues you describe.

They also claim to have changed the feeding geometry on the 6 ARC guns, so it’s all related I guess.

 

[Patty]

They also claim to have changed the feeding geometry on the 6 ARC guns, so it’s all related I guess.

Yes, definitely some lessons learned that have trickled over across the new lines.

 

[AngryKoala]

Can you link a article to what Steyr you're talking about sir? Very interested to see what they're bringing to the market...
Sako was supposedly doing a large frame DMR-style build as well in the near term future, no?

POTD: New Sako M23 DMR with Steiner M7Xi 2.9-20x50 -

Sako M23 DMR for the Finnish Defence Force. AR style and chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO. It has a short-stroke gas piston system.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Interesting times ahead, no doubt!

They are calling it a DMR but it's more like the SCAR. Everything sounds good, I haven't seen any field test videos.

[EnforceTac 2023] The New Lightweight Piston-Operated Steyr DMR

Steyr has announced their latest upcoming non-bullpup rifle - the new Steyr DMR. A new sub-7 pound sub-MOA rifle chambered in .308.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

LoL...

No test data has been released so its a little silly to imply what one rifles bore erosion did compared to another. Can you expand on what makes the G barrel notable.

Using phrases like the LMT will "Probably" be shot out at 2500rds, and " the G will last "at least" seem to indicate that there is no real data one either of those extremes.

has anybody actually shot a 10K test cycle on either a LMT or G barrel, and after X amount of times measured for bore erosion, or is this the guys version of your gucci purse is better than my LV purse?

While I am sure you are up to date on how gov solicitations work, I have to remind you, thats the process that was responsible for giving us the Sig M17/M18, XM7 which we can all agree is a trainwreck.

I think what we are seeing here is the 2023 version of the overly ambiguous claims that were in the past made regarding stuff from Hodge Defense and Larue.

I am not even making the argument that I think the Geiselle is in any way a bad rifle, just that it feels overpriced compared to ever other large frame gas gun. While I am a really big fan of Gieselle triggers, i am not sure that I believe that barrel on the 6.5 gas gun barrel on the planet.

-I have shot out a LMT cut rifle barrel in 6.5cm. 2.5K is about where they turn, with mild loads.
-I saw the guys shooting the G gun, and you read one of their first hand testimonial, with that round count and still shooting sub half with factory ammo, something that would be hard to do with the LMT with a new barrel, much less one that has over 5K down the tube.

If the gun was bullshit, it wouldn't have been down selected and then awarded, especially considering it was probably on the most expensive side of the submission scale.

We arent talking about a bullshit pistol solicitation, where the selectee was decided before they even RFP, based on features unique to it alone.

"no test data has been released" and other dumb statements like that are bullshit cop outs. No shit no testing data will be released, if it ever is from DOD. Feel free to file a FOIA and get back to us in 6 months to a year if they even do respond. What we do have is people with first hand experience reporting them. If you dont have some proof they are lying, then you should stay quiet and let the discussion continue.

You don't have any information or experience that anyone else here doesn't have, yet feel the need to shit on peoples first hand claims. If you have nothing to say, then no need to post.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

the differences between a cut rifled, un lined barrel and a chrome lined barrel in terms of barrel life aren’t exactly a secret.

Erosion is also not an indicator of whether a barrel is shot out or not. Does anyone care wether or not a barrel has 10 thou of erosion or 100 thou if its still shooting well?

I think the differentiation is, No one has been able to put out a CL CMV barrel that could shoot that well, for that long, other than maybe FN on their bolt guns. I have never seen it in a Semi, and have owned just about every SA rifle platform out there from FALS to galils, to HKs to FN SCAR/FS2000 to the Tavor/AUGs. And then about every AR manufacturer under the sun going back over 20 years.

I compared the G barrel to the LMT cut rifle since thats what guys were saying you could get cheaper, and its the only barrel they make that can even shoot to that level. Even the top barrels on KAC guns were Made by Krieger or moved in house as cut rifle on the LPR/APR rifles.

That barrel, doing what it looks like its doing, is a complete game changer if they can mass produce it. Ignoring everything else on the gun, that is an amazing feat.

 

[madangler1]

If Geissele’s 6.5 creedmoor barrels last 10-15k rounds, I can see paying $6k. Otherwise, no I will watch and see what happens.

I have a 2020 mfg 11.5” Super Duty, which is SBRed, and bar none it is the best AR I have owned. Much better than a KAC SR-15 mod 2, and even better than Daniel Defense. Note: I sold the KAC, kept the DD….food for thought.

 

[Patty]

Maybe it’s because bolt guns are my game and I’m used to getting maybe 2k out of a barrel. But 6k+ on something that isn’t a 223 makes me thrilled.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I have a 2020 mfg 11.5” Super Duty, which is SBRed, and bar none it is the best AR I have owned. Much better than a KAC SR-15 mod 2, and even better than Daniel Defense. Note: I sold the KAC, kept the DD….food for thought.

Damn..
Care to elaborate on what you didn't like about the SR15 vs the Super Duty..??

 

[madangler1]

16” SR-15 mod 2 + KAC QDC 556 can WAAAAYYYYY over gassed. So much so, it hurts your eyes to shoot it (yes I am wearing very good eye pro). Tried multiple mods to no avail. Sent both items back to KAC and was told all was well. As you might imagine, I bought the system in 2017 after being told by KAC that their combo was made to work perfect together. Total crap IMHO. Hence, I sold the system off (rifle and suppressor). Even tried the can on a tunable gas block on an AK……WAAAAYYY tooo much back pressure.

DD4V7 upper + BCM A5 lower + Surefire SOCOM RC2 556 = awesome. Zero issues, no gas to face. Much better set up and value over any KAC I have tried.

Geissele 11.5” Super Duty is set up out of the box to run with my Surefire SOCOM RC2 556.

I will never buy a KAC again, even with the UK contract they won for the KS-1. I can buy or put together a better AR platform rifle that runs suppressed from companies that actually care about the civilian market. If I had to build an AR now, I would use a DD upper again on a BCM lower, and try the new HUXWRX Flow 556k. DD drills their barrels’ gas ports the proper size.

 

[TheOE800]

DD drills their barrels’ gas ports the proper size.

DD may have better sized ports now but that definitely hasn’t been the case historically.

 

[Patty]

Gas systems are one of those things I don't pay attention to from a manufacturer because a black river tactical gas tube goes on every setup I have for my specific muzzle device and ammo combo. Highly recommend checking them out, it is a very nice alternative to an adjustable gas black if you do not want to sacrifice the robust factory gas block setup.

 

[MikeMiller]

Lot of good information here. Guys with first hand knowledge thank you for sharing

What I know is Geissle is good stuff. I don’t know or have I met him but I build a lot of rifles with his parts.

On advertising through Match Give a ways. I ran a small sling company for twenty years and regularly gave products away. It was to give back because at major matches many competitors already are sponsored or use exactly what they want. That means many prizes in table end up for sale. Shooters do this to off set their costs to compete. So giving at major matches actually hurts the bottom line but damm it still feels good to help the shooters. I loved giving to the smaller matches as well because the gear was generally used by the shooters in future matches

So the argument that it’s just good advertising does not fly. The companies that give do do to help the shooters because an add on the net or magazine would be far more beneficial for the same or less money

As to barrel life. I go back to the M40A3 ( yeah I am old) pick of barrels. Schneider was picked because it outlasted the others for acceptable accuracy life. Something about how he rifled the barrels hardened the surface was what I was told

Now I have shot out more barrels than I want to admit and I can’t tell you why some last a very long time and some die quickly with same caliber loads but I am all for someone who has figured out a better way and if life is only 1.5 times more it’s worth a ton more on a many month deployment to the guys I know in the field. ( I never leave camp couch anymore)

Back to your regularly schedule fight

 

[shootertom]

Are these all sold out? or have they not been offered yet?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Are these all sold out? or have they not been offered yet?

Doubt us mere civilians will be seeing these for some time to come..

 

[Patty]

Are these all sold out? or have they not been offered yet?

Early next year

 

[madangler1]

Regardless it sounds like a great system combined with their suppressor. If one lives near a range that is 1000-1500 yards or shoots PRS matches routinely, I can see the value. If one is like me, where the longest range I have access to at the moment is only 100-200 yards, I see zero value in it short of saying I own one.

If the post-military prices drop to the $4-5k range, I'll buy one. I like my Geissele SBR. They may have had issues rolling out some of their 2021-22 barrels and uppers, but mine is flawless thus far. I would not hesistate to buy from them again. I am fully invested in SSA triggers and love them.

Oh, and I second what was said about Geissele trying to recoup their investment, etc. They are probably giving us .mil prices for now. Hopefully it comes back to earth. Will be interesting to see 3rd party reviews of this platform.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I can't imagine these barrels are made any differently or on different machines to the barrels they've been making for the Super Duty series. (Aside from perhaps lapping/honing the barrels prior to applying the chrome lining ala Criterion?)
I would think they're just applying stricter quality control aside from that, throwing out any barrels that don't meet the required specs.. along with whatever they're doing at the barrel nut/extension area to create a stronger stiffer platform to hold the barrel. Perhaps using the barrel nut as a heat sink as well..??

 

[MikeMiller]

I can't imagine these barrels are made any differently or on different machines to the barrels they've been making for the Super Duty series. (Aside from perhaps lapping/honing the barrels prior to applying the chrome lining ala Criterion?)
I would think they're just applying stricter quality control aside from that, throwing out any barrels that don't meet the required specs.. along with whatever they're doing at the barrel nut/extension area to create a stronger stiffer platform to hold the barrel. Perhaps using the barrel nut as a heat sink as well..??

Well you just described the difference between barrel quality in all barrels

 

[carbonbased]

Maybe these barrels are made of that new-ish Bartlein super-steel?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Well you just described the difference between barrel quality in all barrels

Yes. Well what I'm saying is I don't think these barrels are necessarily anything special or different. Just applying stricter QC to attain the accuracy they're getting. Could be wrong tho, but that'd surprise me...

 

[shootertom]

I see they are also making cut rifled barrels now. Perhaps this rifle will have some version of that.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I see they are also making cut rifled barrels now. Perhaps this rifle will have some version of that.

Interesting. I didn't know that!

 

[Jsp556]

I see they are also making cut rifled barrels now. Perhaps this rifle will have some version of that.

He said in the video that they’re hammer forged, chrome lined, 4150 CMV.

 

[shootertom]

He said in the video that they’re hammer forged, chrome lined, 4150 CMV.

Nice, where is the video located?

 

[GUNNER10]

I can't imagine these barrels are made any differently or on different machines to the barrels they've been making for the Super Duty series. (Aside from perhaps lapping/honing the barrels prior to applying the chrome lining ala Criterion?)
I would think they're just applying stricter quality control aside from that, throwing out any barrels that don't meet the required specs.. along with whatever they're doing at the barrel nut/extension area to create a stronger stiffer platform to hold the barrel. Perhaps using the barrel nut as a heat sink as well..??

I watched a video from Geiselle the other day they were explain the changes that they made to these barrels regarding their Phased Array gas system which feels like it could be a valid theory. Going from 1 larger gas port to 3 smaller gas ports is an interesting approach to gassing a system, and would agree in concept, that the smaller gas ports have less of an impact on the bullet as its leaving the barrel which I could see having an impact on reducing flyers.

I didnt catch anything regarding the back end of the barrel, but it would be interesting to see what they did.

It seems like they are doing some interesting stuff and are moving the ball forward in some areas.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I watched a video from Geiselle the other day they were explain the changes that they made to these barrels regarding their Phased Array gas system which feels like it could be a valid theory. Going from 1 larger gas port to 3 smaller gas ports is an interesting approach to gassing a system, and would agree in concept, that the smaller gas ports have less of an impact on the bullet as its leaving the barrel which I could see having an impact on reducing flyers.

I didnt catch anything regarding the back end of the barrel, but it would be interesting to see what they did.

It seems like they are doing some interesting stuff and are moving the ball forward in some areas.

Can you share the vid?
Thanks

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Can you share the vid?
Thanks

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Damn! Geissele's fckn legit dude!
If their CHF barrels are doing that... then WTF are their cut rifled tubes gonna do?!!
If they translate that performance to mass production.. JP, LMT, etc will be getting put on notice for sure.
Damn son!

 

[GUNNER10]

Damn! Geissele's fckn legit dude!
If their CHF barrels are doing that... then WTF are their cut rifled tubes gonna do?!!
If they translate that performance to mass production.. JP, LMT, etc will be getting put on notice for sure.
Damn son!

I think Geisselle is doing some really good stuff, and I think the AR will ultimately benefit from their work. If their concept is able to be transitioned to production and it works, you will ultimately start seeing variations of this approach used elsewhere.

For Example, HK did a great job a tackling short, suppressed guns in the early 2000's and now there are a good amount of really refined Piston AR's Surefire, did a great job addressing back pressure on shorter guns. now low-pressure cans are a thing. If Geissel solved flyers in gas guns... Awesome. Narrowing the gap between bolt and gas gun accuracy/precision is definitely a good thing.

 

[AwkwardlySocial]

Geissele announced they won the MRGG-S on their instagram account this morning. Hopefully this means there will be Geissele SR-25/DPMS high patern handguards coming soon!

 

[GUNNER10]

Just talked to a guy at work, and apparently these are hitting the market right now, He said that his dealer in Gettysburg gave him wholesale at 4200. Asked him to have his guy pull one for me if possible.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Just talked to a guy at work, and apparently these are hitting the market right now, He said that his dealer in Gettysburg gave him wholesale at 4200. Asked him to have his guy pull one for me if possible.

If you do get one, I would love to see your thoughts on it. It seems very interesting, especially the barrel life aspect. Would love to see how that translates into a mass produced rifle meant for the commercial market.

 

[GUNNER10]

If you do get one, I would love to see your thoughts on it. It seems very interesting, especially the barrel life aspect. Would love to see how that translates into a mass produced rifle meant for the commercial market.

Will do, we are both in the middle east at the moment, so it might be a few months.

4200 feels right for a really good large frame gas gun.

Would love to shoot it back to back against my LMT 6.5cm which is pretty close to a L129A2.

 

[j-moose32]

Subbed for results. Not selling my JP just yet, but very interested to see how these regular production ones actually perform