Scope paralysis

[jdip23]

There are sooooo many scope options I’m confusing myself reading all the reviews, pros/cons etc…what do you pros recommend?

Altus is building my rifle. It will be a 26 inch bartlein barrel, AI chassis, 300 Norma mag. This rifle will be used for just target shooting at 1000-2000 yards. I’d like to spend around $2000 or so.

What do you all think?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Used razor Gen 3

 

[Ronws]

There are sooooo many scope options I’m confusing myself reading all the reviews, pros/cons etc…what do you pros recommend?

Altus is building my rifle. It will be a 26 inch bartlein barrel, AI chassis, 300 Norma mag. This rifle will be used for just target shooting at 1000-2000 yards. I’d like to spend around $2000 or so.

What do you all think?

You may end up expanding the budget on the scope. Look at people shooting that far and farther. On the economical side, West Desert Shooter (on YT) uses a 4-16X50 and shoots to 1,000 yards.

There are also these guys who just shot the record over 4 miles with a Vortex Razor Gen III 6-36X56, which may still fit in your budget.

7,774 Yards: New World Record Rifle Shot Set in Wyoming

A team of long-range shooting experts in Wyoming set what appears to be the new world record for the longest rifle shot ever completed: 7,774 yards or 4.4 miles. Scott Austin and Shepard Humphries led the team from Nomad Rifleman, a shooting range and instruction center based in Jackson Hole...

www.themeateater.com

 

[Csafisher]

Used gen 3 razor
Used nx8
Used Zeiss s3

 

[jdip23]

Used gen 3 razor
Used nx8
Used Zeiss s3

the nx8 and zeiss are like $2500 brand new which is ok with me. You prefer one over the other?

 

[Luckyshot]

If you are ok with $2500 plus get a 7-35 atacr over nx8

 

[Fig]

Need more money to get something new that will make you happy (another $1K) shooting beyond a mile.

 

[jdip23]

Need more money to get something new that will make you happy (another $1K) shooting beyond a mile.

And what would your recommendation be?

 

[DownhillFromHere]

You've had several good recommendations here. With that said - the gen-3 Vortex Razor 6-36x56 is arguably the best value available today. I have three of them. I also have a ZCO 5-27x56, which you may recognize as one of the top-tier scopes. These and others (Zeiss, Burris, Nightforce, I think there was a Sightron in there someplace) have been compared side by side at my "home" range, and the consensus is that the gen-3 Razor ($3k everyday price) is optically very close to the $4k ZCO. Go to PRS matches and see zillions of them.

You should be able to find a used one in the $2000-2500 range. Stretch a wee bit further - EuroOptic has their "custom" black gen-3 Razor available at $2550, and it looks like they're in stock right now. Grab one, be done. You won't ever need a different scope unless you just want to try one.

Do Not cheap out on rings. Easy button is Vortex PMR rings. I always recommend the 1.26" height (EuroOptic is showinga 12% discount) because it provides enough clearance for almost any barreled action and lots of adjustability of the stock/chassis's comb. In any case, do not fall for the outdated bullcrap about the scope being mounted as close to the barrel as possible. You aren't building a 200-yard minute-of-deer hunting rig.

Good luck.

 

[Fig]

What the other guys said are good...they're just more than $2K new. I really feel like most 56mm/20 something power scopes are wound out at 1,760 yards. At least they are for me. I do have a .300WM that will do it and it has a Gen2 Razor on it, but I've never actually shot it beyond 1,600 yards.

I'm not really a Sightron guy, but those are the only ones new (on paper) that would seem to fit that ELR bill in your price range, and if memory serves they were sold and are now Chinesium, but someone else who knows can chime in. I have one Sightron scope (not their top of the line) and I don't like it, but I know that back in the day they were the tits.

If you go on CS Tac or one of the big optics houses and put in sub $2K I see nothing that I would want and would work for me. When you change it to sub $3k some of the recommendations start showing up. I feel like I would need more than 27X to clearly see the target at 2000 yards. Mind you, I rarely go more than 15X except on really long stages (beyond 1,200 yards), and then I usually put the zoom hard over.

If you want to shoot further than a mile it's kind of a different game. Every yard starts to matter. There's guys here that know ELR, but most don't. It's a sub category in a sub category and an even smaller community. @Geno C.

It's like drag racing. You can get your numbers low and quick, but the further you push out small differences start becoming really large ones. You need good optics to shoot "long range", but even better and more powerful ones for ELR. Like the difference between a race car and a dragster. They're very different kinds of cars and different kinds of shooting IMO. Not that this shit isn't expensive, but ELR is even more expensive to build a rig that will do it.

I have a long history of trying to cheap out, getting frustrated, and eventually buying the stuff that will do it out of the box. Most recently trying to build a cheap NRL22 gun, and now a shoot a gun that costs as much as a precision center fire.

I can honestly say that while I've felt an irresponsible lump in my throat dropping thousands of dollars on a scope, I have never had buyers remorse. More like a happy feeling every time the target is in the reticle...

 

[jdip23]

You've had several good recommendations here. With that said - the gen-3 Vortex Razor 6-36x56 is arguably the best value available today. I have three of them. I also have a ZCO 5-27x56, which you may recognize as one of the top-tier scopes. These and others (Zeiss, Burris, Nightforce, I think there was a Sightron in there someplace) have been compared side by side at my "home" range, and the consensus is that the gen-3 Razor ($3k everyday price) is optically very close to the $4k ZCO. Go to PRS matches and see zillions of them.

You should be able to find a used one in the $2000-2500 range. Stretch a wee bit further - EuroOptic has their "custom" black gen-3 Razor available at $2550, and it looks like they're in stock right now. Grab one, be done. You won't ever need a different scope unless you just want to try one.

Do Not cheap out on rings. Easy button is Vortex PMR rings. I always recommend the 1.26" height (EuroOptic is showinga 12% discount) because it provides enough clearance for almost any barreled action and lots of adjustability of the stock/chassis's comb. In any case, do not fall for the outdated bullcrap about the scope being mounted as close to the barrel as possible. You aren't building a 200-yard minute-of-deer hunting rig.

Good luck.

DONE! Thanks so much! Bought both the scope and rings! Very appreciative of all the info!

 

[DownhillFromHere]

What the other guys said are good...they're just more than $2K new. I really feel like most 56mm/20 something power scopes are wound out at 1,760 yards.

My experience shooting a mile is limited. I've done it a few times with a 6.5CM when it was wearing the ZCO 5-27x56. I could definitely see hits on white-painted steel. I could usually see splash in dirt around the plate.

A more powerful scope could be useful in this application. I haven't run my 6-36x56 Razors out that far... I do wonder if the ZCO's slightly better optical quality would balance out the Razor's higher magnification. OP, top-tier scopes differentiate themselves from lesser models in poor/challenging light conditions. In good light with low mirage, a $1200 scope will probably work just fine. But when light conditions suck - particularly low light or high contrast (target is in shade across an 800-yard sunny field) - the top-tier glass gives detail that lesser scopes can't "see."

 

[DownhillFromHere]

DONE! Thanks so much! Bought both the scope and rings! Very appreciative of all the info!

Awesome. I think you'll be happy. If not, it's easy to sell these scopes.

Interestingly, I found my gen-3 Razor's magnification range to be a limiting factor at CLOSE range. I had one on my Vudoo .22LR. In two matches, there were stages where I needed to do holdovers inside 100 yards. If I zoomed out far enough to see everything I needed to see, the subtensions were too small to quickly pick out. So the 5-27x ZCO on my centerfire match rifle and the 6-36x Razor swapped places. Works better.

Post up a photo of your new rig and let the community know how it does at a mile plus!

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

There are sooooo many scope options I’m confusing myself reading all the reviews, pros/cons etc…what do you pros recommend?

Altus is building my rifle. It will be a 26 inch bartlein barrel, AI chassis, 300 Norma mag. This rifle will be used for just target shooting at 1000-2000 yards. I’d like to spend around $2000 or so.

What do you all think?

Go out and try a bunch to see what YOU like. Would you buy a car without driving it? You dont need other people to tell you what you will like.

 

[jdip23]

Yeah I can’t wait! Going to go to Ohio for the weekend once it comes in and get some shots down range.

 

[Ronws]

Yes, as @DownhillFromHere said, do not chince out on the rings. Doesn't matter what scope I get, I get nothing less than match precision rings. So, get those if you get the Razor. The rings are about 150 but again, one and done and don't worry about it.

Also, do not use thread locker. Tighten to the recommended torque only. When the thread locker is first applied, it is liquid and throws off the torque measurement. When dried out, it can also throw off the torque measurement.

 

[Luckyshot]

Also, do not use thread locker. Tighten to the recommended torque only. When the thread locker is first applied, it is liquid and throws off the torque measurement. When dried out, it can also throw off the torque measurement.

-1 to this

(Not directed at Ronws)
There are entire threads about it, and I intend to digress no further. I just want to point out that this is not universally good advice, and worth investigating yourself

 

[Geno C.]

Go out and try a bunch to see what YOU like. Would you buy a car without driving it? You dont need other people to tell you what you will like.

Without having the scope on a gun and shooting it, you will only learn part of the story. Not too many place that I’m aware of that will loan out scopes for a guy to go take to a mile or so to see if he likes them. Much better idea to ask a question like he did here.

 

[Geno C.]

Imagine quality is only part of the equation. Buying a scope with a know record for tracking well, or at least consistently, is big. Followed by one that will allow enough elevation to dial to that distance.

Used atacr and gen3 razors are real close to that 2k mark. If you’re serious about hitting with confidence and not wanting to go higher in $$, those would be what I suggest

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Without having the scope on a gun and shooting it, you will only learn part of the story. Not too many place that I’m aware of that will loan out scopes for a guy to go take to a mile or so to see if he likes them. Much better idea to ask a question like he did here.

Go to any prs match and just ask. Shits bot hard. There are matches every weekend in every region.

 

[Haney]

Go to any prs match and just ask. Shits bot hard. There are matches every weekend in every region.

He lives in NJ, give him guidance to his regional/weekend matches .

 

[GeoDude]

He lives in NJ, give him guidance to his regional/weekend matches .

I shot a few matches in Pennsylvania. Just google prs northeast region. It’s worth a day and a tank of gas to get behind some glass. Used vortex 6-36 for 2k or used ZCo for 3k.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Analysis paralysis due to reading opinions of others. The only way to choose an optic is to get behind it yourself and see what YOUR eye prefers. There is one optic that has been mentioned many times in this thread drives me crazy which just proves we all see something different. Buy once cry once, take a drive and see for yourself....you won't be sorry!

 

[sloporsche]

did the builder have opinion on glass ?

 

[Im2bent]

New G3 from Eurooptic for 2100 with the 30 off cert you can get from px

 

[diggler1833]

DONE! Thanks so much! Bought both the scope and rings! Very appreciative of all the info!

If you picked up one of the G3 Razors and PMRs, you did pretty well. No need to fret any kind of buyer's remorse.

Congrats.

 

[carbonbased]

You might find out is you want higher rings. But, usually the only way to discover that is to first try a set.

I bet everyone on this site has a gdamn box full of rings that didn’t work out for some reason lol

Have you shot much before this? If so, what scope/rings/rifle did you use? It can be helpful to have a starting point (to measure, to compare to, etc).

 

[jdip23]

If you picked up one of the G3 Razors and PMRs, you did pretty well. No need to fret any kind of buyer's remorse.

Congrats.

I did indeed! Thanks!

Go out and try a bunch to see what YOU like. Would you buy a car without driving it? You dont need other people to tell you what you will like.

So actually I never test drove a car I bought. Out of the 6 I have currently, I never even saw 4 of them before I bought them and had them shipped across the country.

I read a lot. Look up a lot of info. Sometimes too much. Get expert opinions and use all that data to validate what I like or what I think is sexy. Wait till you see the rig. You all will probably hate it bc of the color scheme lol. But to each his own!

I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

@jdip23 , you don't make any mention of how much experience you have with precision rifles (or any other discipline/firearm platform). So - assuming you're just starting out, a couple of observations. I'm coming at this from over 60 years of shooting about anything that expels something from a tube under gas pressure, 35 years of that in competition, six-plus with precision rifle.

• No matter what you do, you'll most likely end up wanting to try something different. IMO, there's no such thing as "buy once cry once. You might definitely regret buying something cheap and wishing you had waited/saved for more... heh. I bought all three of my gen-3 Razors after buying the ZCO.
• If you try other glass as you gain experience and decide you like another brand or reticle better, your incoming gen-3 Razor is one of the most popular precision scopes out there and you'll be able to sell it at relatively minimal loss. Lesser scopes --> longer to sell, lower resale.
• When you receive your Razor, hopefully it will be from a newer lot in which the early-production "gummy" turret issue has been resolved. Your scope should have crisp, positive clicks when you rotate the turrets. If adjustments feel gummy and indistinct, fear not. At some point, call Vortex, tell CS person you have an early-release scope and want the gummy turrets fixed. If they don't offer you a shipping label, ask for one. You'll have your scope back in less than two weeks. I did this with two of my three.
• If you have no experience mounting riflescopes, it isn't difficult... but don't go into it blind either. There are plenty of how-to videos out there. It's in your best interest to have an inch-pounds torque driver on hand. The Wheeler FAT wrench is popular... price varies wildly across vendors; your target price is in the $60 range. You'll need additional bits. Best to buy them separately. There is an upgraded Wheeler kit available but it's overpriced unless you can use a plethora of unusual-sized bits.

It certainly sounds like you're building a 1000-2000-yard-capable rifle... if you're fairly new to precision rifle, I wonder if you'll look around not long from now and want a caliber easier on the wallet and much easier on the shoulder... after hitting a one-mile target the first time, I came close to building something in .300 PRC... one of many forks in the road in front of you.

Enjoy the trip.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Go out and try a bunch to see what YOU like. Would you buy a car without driving it? You dont need other people to tell you what you will like.

You’ve never bought a car without driving it? Hell, I’ve bought several without ever seeing them.




Rookie

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You’ve never bought a car without driving it? Hell, I’ve bought several without ever seeing them.




Rookie

Nope, why would I? Buying new cars is for a morons and business owners trying to get a write off.

Wouldnt marry a piece of ass without trying it out first either.

 

[Fig]

That’s why your wife is a slut.

Sorry, slow and down the middle is hard to resist.

 

[jdip23]

@jdip23 , you don't make any mention of how much experience you have with precision rifles (or any other discipline/firearm platform). So - assuming you're just starting out, a couple of observations. I'm coming at this from over 60 years of shooting about anything that expels something from a tube under gas pressure, 35 years of that in competition, six-plus with precision rifle.

• No matter what you do, you'll most likely end up wanting to try something different. IMO, there's no such thing as "buy once cry once. You might definitely regret buying something cheap and wishing you had waited/saved for more... heh. I bought all three of my gen-3 Razors after buying the ZCO.
• If you try other glass as you gain experience and decide you like another brand or reticle better, your incoming gen-3 Razor is one of the most popular precision scopes out there and you'll be able to sell it at relatively minimal loss. Lesser scopes --> longer to sell, lower resale.
• When you receive your Razor, hopefully it will be from a newer lot in which the early-production "gummy" turret issue has been resolved. Your scope should have crisp, positive clicks when you rotate the turrets. If adjustments feel gummy and indistinct, fear not. At some point, call Vortex, tell CS person you have an early-release scope and want the gummy turrets fixed. If they don't offer you a shipping label, ask for one. You'll have your scope back in less than two weeks. I did this with two of my three.
• If you have no experience mounting riflescopes, it isn't difficult... but don't go into it blind either. There are plenty of how-to videos out there. It's in your best interest to have an inch-pounds torque driver on hand. The Wheeler FAT wrench is popular... price varies wildly across vendors; your target price is in the $60 range. You'll need additional bits. Best to buy them separately. There is an upgraded Wheeler kit available but it's overpriced unless you can use a plethora of unusual-sized bits.

It certainly sounds like you're building a 1000-2000-yard-capable rifle... if you're fairly new to precision rifle, I wonder if you'll look around not long from now and want a caliber easier on the wallet and much easier on the shoulder... after hitting a one-mile target the first time, I came close to building something in .300 PRC... one of many forks in the road in front of you.

Enjoy the trip.

Yeah I am brand new to the long distance world. I have other toys in 6.5 CM that I take out to 500-900 yards. I wanted something to go longer and was hell bent on a 338 lapua but then went 300 Norma. Hopefully the price comes down over the next couple years some but if not oh well. I’m sure it won’t be the only long range rig I build so this will just be my first

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I shot a few matches in Pennsylvania. Just google prs northeast region. It’s worth a day and a tank of gas to get behind some glass. Used vortex 6-36 for 2k or used ZCo for 3k.

He is ignored so I didn't see his post until you quoted it.

But Yea, If he is in NJ there is a whole band of PRS guys out of there. I shot with a bunch of them on Sunday. He can go to 360 Precision (Dan) or DI precision (Kurt) and either can sort him out and let him look through a bunch of glass without leaving the state. There are like 50 PRS22 matches every weekend including all over NJ one could show up to and look through a bunch of glass.

 

[Ronws]

The Hide never disappoints. I have often read that if one does not want to put up with so many insults, stick to the technical forums and stay from current events.

But here we are with a simple question and yet, someone, somewhere is powerless to stop themselves from slinging poo, like the apes in the primate exhibit.

I finally figured out when to predict someone is going to say something nasty to and about someone else. Any day that ends in the letter 'y', which narrows it down quite a bit.

Why do we do that? Is it genetic? Even I concoct insults, at least in my head, for no other reason than it would sound funny.

Then, again, the insult is really in the mind of the insulted. A friend of mine had coined an insult in Spanish.

Tu Madre mama Berga por gratis.

I asked a mexican friend which part of that is the real insult. He said, "por gratis."

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The Hide never disappoints. I have often read that if one does not want to put up with so many insults, stick to the technical forums and stay from current events.

But here we are with a simple question and yet, someone, somewhere is powerless to stop themselves from slinging poo, like the apes in the primate exhibit.

I finally figured out when to predict someone is going to say something nasty to and about someone else. Any day that ends in the letter 'y', which narrows it down quite a bit.

Why do we do that? Is it genetic? Even I concoct insults, at least in my head, for no other reason than it would sound funny.

Then, again, the insult is really in the mind of the insulted. A friend of mine had coined an insult in Spanish.

Tu Madre mama Berga por gratis.

I asked a mexican friend which part of that is the real insult. He said, "por gratis."

It's getting off topic. But recently, a guy on FB who gets no real views, likes, or comments on anything he posts.......made the post below.

It's an example how people will literally just click all day looking for something to get mad/talk shit about. Look at the shares, comments, etc.....

 

[Ronws]

It's getting off topic. But recently, a guy on FB who gets no real views, likes, or comments on anything he posts.......made the post below.

It's an example how people will literally just click all day looking for something to get mad/talk shit about. Look at the shares, comments, etc.....

View attachment 8408917

Probably just reponding to his mathematical mistake.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Probably just reponding to his mathematical mistake.

Yep. Even though it's obvious a joke or a ploy. No one's math is that far off. He said he had something like 50+ PM's just telling him he's an idiot and such.

Social media (including forums) is odd. We are all guilty to some degree. We'll scroll all day until we find something to argue or point out is wrong.

 

[carbonbased]

He said he had something like 50+ PM's just telling him he's an idiot and such.

Wait…that penny pincher is you, isn’t it?






Kidding!

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Wait…that penny pincher is you, isn’t it?






Kidding!

Your got me. And I'm into stupid shit like sample standard deviation.

So, the rest of you can be poor......I'm gonna make $365k in three years.

 

[roostercogburn98]

So, the rest of you can be poor......I'm gonna make $365k in three years.

Puts you square in the box of middle class these days. Maybe lower middle class if we’re being honest. Time to up your goals

 

[carbonbased]

I have to loop some FB suckers in with the wheat and chessboard scam. Only using pennies instead of wheat grains.

Soon to be rolling in 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 quintillion pennies…

Wheat and chessboard problem - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[FuhQ]

There are sooooo many scope options I’m confusing myself reading all the reviews, pros/cons etc…what do you pros recommend?

Altus is building my rifle. It will be a 26 inch bartlein barrel, AI chassis, 300 Norma mag. This rifle will be used for just target shooting at 1000-2000 yards. I’d like to spend around $2000 or so.

What do you all think?

Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 FFP EBR-7D MRAD Black EuroOptic Exclusive Riflescope RZR-63602-B

FREE SHIPPING on Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 FFP EBR-7D MRAD Black EuroOptic Exclusive Riflescope RZR-63602-B

www.eurooptic.com

Or, you can get this like-new DEMO scope at a smoking deal that is well under your budget...

Like New Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

FREE SHIPPING on Like New Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

www.eurooptic.com

Or, get a new one if you prefer not to get the demo...

Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

FREE SHIPPING on Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

www.eurooptic.com

 

[Geno C.]

Go to any prs match and just ask. Shits bot hard. There are matches every weekend in every region.

Are you a fucking retard?! We aren’t talking prs shit. If you think prs distances are the same as elr, I’m not sure you can be helped.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Are you a fucking retard?! We aren’t talking prs shit. If you think prs distances are the same as elr, I’m not sure you can be helped.

1. Go get your meds checked and come back correct.
2. Every scope used for "ELR" out to about 2k is the same exact shit you will find at a prs match...even prs22. Tangents, zco, nightforce, razors ect. Ever shot NF ELR? What magic fucking scopes do they run that you won't see at a prs match?
3. If you ever shot instead of talking shit, you would k own how ridiculous you sound. The only retard posting in this thread is you.
Now go get your fucking shinebox.

 

[Geno C.]

Your lack of knowledge is showing. If you shot elr you might know what you currently do not. Just because a scope is used in a prs or 22 match doesn’t automatically make it a good choice for elr.

How many moa does it take to get to 2k? Wanna take a guess how many moa are possible in a gen2 or 3 razor? Just one small thing that prs shooters might not ever encounter or know that might be a limiting factor for a scope that going to be used for elr.

Don’t worry. Your not as smart as you think you are

 

[Mormegil87]

It would be good to listen to @Geno C. In regards to ELR and it's equipment.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Don’t worry. Your not as smart as you think you are

Tug the hook, don’t jerk it. The small fish have soft moufs

 

[abn31c]

Your got me. And I'm into stupid shit like sample standard deviation.

So, the rest of you can be poor......I'm gonna make $365k in three years.

Soo yer a manager at Walmart?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Your lack of knowledge is showing. If you shot elr you might know what you currently do not. Just because a scope is used in a prs or 22 match doesn’t automatically make it a good choice for elr.

How many moa does it take to get to 2k? Wanna take a guess how many moa are possible in a gen2 or 3 razor? Just one small thing that prs shooters might not ever encounter or know that might be a limiting factor for a scope that going to be used for elr.

Don’t worry. Your not as smart as you think you are

Moa? What are you fuckign 90 years old? You aren't as smart as you think you are.

Every single popular scope used in PRS has enough elevation to take you to 2k with common 2k cartridges. 300wm, 7saum, 300nm, 338Lm ect 28 sherman. Now if you want to to take 6.5cm past 2k ( which we have done with a prs gun in 6gt and 6.5cm]) good luck spotting shots.

Most scopes with a flat base have about 13-18 mils of elevation. Throw a 40 moa base on there and you have another 11-12 mils. If you need more than that, then you use a prism. There are a few dedicated ELR scopes like the gennesis but they are overkill for 2k and in, which is what the op was asking about.

2k is not ko2m. Virtually every scope you will see is the exact same shit guys are running in prs. Zco, tangents, 735 atacr and razors. NF elr is a great example
Shots out just past 2k. And everyone is running the same scopes they use on their prs guns...since it's prs shooters who win it almost every year.

Explain to me the difference scope choices between a prs gun and a 2k and in ( which isn't even really elr) "elr" gun.

Clearly you don't know shit and would be better off being quiet and letting everyone assume you are an idiot instead of proving it. Now you decided to start the insults not me ya fucking twat. Maybe next time read the thread before you try to drop your shriveled little nuts out and look like an asshole in the process.