During competitions under time pressure, which is the preferred method? 40 seconds to get into position then fire 5 rounds at two very different distances say, 325 and 740, seems like a hold over/off would be better, especially with significant wind. Writing the hold over on your hand then correctly using the reticle to place the shot is what I am thinking. Any experience in this area? I use a bolt gun.
Advanced Marksmanship Holder over/off vs dialing
- Thread starter Ryguy
- Start date
I pretty much dial all my elevation if the state doesn't restrict it and hold all wind. It's simple and fast and easy to correct for
Holding is faster, especially if you have to transition back and forth from 325 to 740 in 40 sec, dialing would be wasting too much time.
Practice so that you can be confident in your ability to do holds and hit with the same proficiency as dialing. Horus reticles really help with holdovers/holdoffs since .1 mil is easily seen in the reticle.
Practice so that you can be confident in your ability to do holds and hit with the same proficiency as dialing. Horus reticles really help with holdovers/holdoffs since .1 mil is easily seen in the reticle.
In your stated case I might dial 325 and hold the difference to 740. Don't have to touch the dial for the stage and minimize holdover.
Given the option, I would normally dial on the longest range, then hold under at the near range. This gives you the maximum precision at the far target, the near target then gets the hold, which is somewhat less precise. There is no 'right' answer, some might prefer to hold both. I'd try each possible method and see which works best, fastest, for YOU.
I'm still new to long range shooting, but if time will allow for it, I dial in elevation. If going from a 200yd shot to a 300yd shot, I will dial in what it "should" be, and then if adjustments need to be made, I will hold for them if they are minor. For windage, I like to just hold it because it changes so often, and I don't like going back and forth when it dies down. I'll only dial in very heavy winds.
If these are known distances I would just memorize my elevations out to 500 yds.( or make a card taped to my stock). For example, my data on my loads at 500yds. I'm at 48 inches. Heck, I can visualize 48 inches above the target and let'er go. much further, I would dial just for higher degree of consistency.
if the targets are similar size, holding xyz number of target forms high has always worked well on the two way range
The short and simple answer, whatever works best for YOU. What works for me might not work best for you.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say it depends on the target. If you're shooting a full size ipsc and are just counting hits as hits who cares, just hold. Half a mil at 700 meters is like just over a foot. Not enough to miss. A hit is a hit, especially with a time constraint.
I would dial for shooting groups though. That's just me. Some shooters claim to be as accurate holding as they are dialing. I have trouble subtending .1 mils with my reticle.
I would dial for shooting groups though. That's just me. Some shooters claim to be as accurate holding as they are dialing. I have trouble subtending .1 mils with my reticle.
Why would you need to?
What are you shooting, and how precisely are you able to estimate average wind value out to 1000 yards?
As an example, with a standard .308, subtending 1/10 mil would only be practical if you can estimate average wind value between you and a 1000 yard target to within 1/3 mph accuracy. Or within about 1 mph to 500 yards.
Plus, X-rings are typically 1 MOA in diameter, or .29 mils (a human body is narrower than that). Quarter or fifth mil subtentions usually work fine.
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Because if I want to hit a 10 inch target at a click, .1 mil off can pull me off my target elevation-wise. I don't always shoot silhouettes. What's the point of going through the trouble of truing a gun with a ballistic calculator if you're not going to be precise about it when absolute precision is your goal.
What reticle do you have?
Practice breaking the reticle down will take care of this with even a standard mildot reticle. Miling targets at known distances, even just at 100, will teach you to break the reticle down. You get your mil reading and then do the mil range formula and if you are off look back at the target and see where you were off. If you were supposed to be .6 mils and you said .7 then look back and learn that it is .6 and where that .6 mark is. It takes practice but it will come.
No special targets are needed and as I said you could do it at 100 yards and doing it at even, known distances is actually better as you know the distance and it helps you learn the reticle better. I use cardboard cut to what size I want or just marked off with heavy black marks so I can see the different sizes.
I remember seeing a bunch of guys try out the dial versus hold on Moving Chaos at Rifles Only a few years ago and the consensus among them was dialing provided the best results despite the limited amount of time.
That's a great idea, Rob. I feel I am pretty proficient at ranging, but I never thought about doing your method to hone the skills. Well played !!
Sorry for the de-rail OP, back to the regular program...
You can't miss fast enough to get points. Dial for constants (elevation) and hold for variables (wind).
I have to admit I forgot what this thread was about. Not wind hold or mil ranging, but holding to quickly compensate for range variations. I answered a post above thinking the topic was about wind hold vs. dialing. IMO, you don't need to substend .1 mils for wind or for range (distance) compensation, but for accurately milling (ranging) it is an essential skill.
So, as an aside (since now I realize it is off-topic), what I do to substend .1 mils is to imagine quarters. If the edge of the object being ranged is just under the quarter mil position, I call it .2 mils. Just over a mil I call .1 mils. Just over a quarter I call .3 mils, just under a half.......etc. Some hash reticles have 2/10 mil lines in one section, and those help a lot when milling range. But many of the later mil-dot reticles incorporated .2 mil dots, which help as visual references for estimating .1 and .2 mils. You can get an engineer's ruler with markings at 1/10 inch and practice with that as well. With practice, your eye should be able to substend to .1 mils well enough.
So, as an aside (since now I realize it is off-topic), what I do to substend .1 mils is to imagine quarters. If the edge of the object being ranged is just under the quarter mil position, I call it .2 mils. Just over a mil I call .1 mils. Just over a quarter I call .3 mils, just under a half.......etc. Some hash reticles have 2/10 mil lines in one section, and those help a lot when milling range. But many of the later mil-dot reticles incorporated .2 mil dots, which help as visual references for estimating .1 and .2 mils. You can get an engineer's ruler with markings at 1/10 inch and practice with that as well. With practice, your eye should be able to substend to .1 mils well enough.
Yeah learning to break down the reticle helps for holds as well as you learn and know the retcicle. Knowing how to break down the reticle isn;t about ranging. Know where to place the target when you are holding for a more precise .1 mil hold. Practicing like that and with a good reticle you can break the mil down to .05 mils for ranging as well. You don't need that for reticle holds as .1 mil is good but it's good to know how to break down the reticle as fine as possible for when you are ranging.
Yes dialing and using the center reticle is more precise as you have that exact center point but you should practice the skill of holding elevation as well as windage so that if it's needed you can do it. You might be surprised at how precise it can be with a good reticle. .1 mil is what you dial when wanting to be precise in a shot when using the center of the reticle so you should be able to hold that as well when using the reticle for holds especially on smaller targets. Also when shooting movers knowing where to have your hold down to .1 mil is essential especially when shooting small movers like 6-8" in size.
Per many excellent responses above, comes down to a number of factors:
- Target Size, makes more sense to hold on larger targets which are more forgiving to the errors common with holding over. Smaller targets that are less forgiving may require the level of accuracy that comes with dialing corrections.
- Reticle Type, some are very detailed and lend themselves very well to accurate holds, some are very coarse and make it very challenging to hold accurately.
- Ability to Run the Dials, many shooters can get lost when dialing because the markings and clicks are not optimal, and they lack a zero stop feature. If that is the case, then holding over may make more since it decreases the chances of getting lost or dialing the wrong correction.
As always, different strokes for different folks, gear, and situations.
Per Rob, you need to try and practice with both, and ultimately figure out what is actually going to work well and what is not given your skills, equipment, and scenarios that you are shooting in.
- Target Size, makes more sense to hold on larger targets which are more forgiving to the errors common with holding over. Smaller targets that are less forgiving may require the level of accuracy that comes with dialing corrections.
- Reticle Type, some are very detailed and lend themselves very well to accurate holds, some are very coarse and make it very challenging to hold accurately.
- Ability to Run the Dials, many shooters can get lost when dialing because the markings and clicks are not optimal, and they lack a zero stop feature. If that is the case, then holding over may make more since it decreases the chances of getting lost or dialing the wrong correction.
As always, different strokes for different folks, gear, and situations.
Per Rob, you need to try and practice with both, and ultimately figure out what is actually going to work well and what is not given your skills, equipment, and scenarios that you are shooting in.
I have a video of me shooting (and completing) the moving chaos in under 30 seconds using holds. This is the 410 mover - 200 - 307 - 540 - 410 mover from the tower drill, right?
I dialed in the 410 for both elevation AND PARALLAX and just used hold-UNDERS for the closer ones. If the targets are the same size, then at 200 the target will appear pretty huge in your scope.
**OP**
Holding wind in the middle of your reticle without a reference point is difficult. If you have a standard mil-dot reticle, then I'd dial for the far target (so that you can use the horizontal hash as a reference point for the wind) then hold UNDER for the near target (where the wind will have less effect on the bullet). It's easier to hold a .2 or .3 at 300 yards than it is to hold .7 or .8 at 700+.... especially if there are no reference points in your reticle.
However, if you have a reticle that has the grid pattern built in (G2DMR, Horus, Etc.) then holding for the distance will be very easy.
This is my thinking also your better to dial and hit three targets than hold over and miss five.
For Me it Depends: I primarily run an H59, and on timed stages I hold everything. I don't want to loose time making the changes. Some matches, like the recent Bangsteel Team Challenge, where we engaged multiple Targets on Timed stages, my partner and I managed a Win without ever touching the dials the entire competition. Then you go to the Allegheny Sniper Challenge:same scope but single target,untimed engagements, and I stumbled into a Win by dialing every single shot over 3 Days. My answer would be Both, Determined by circumstance. For me the horus seems to help but I would be just as comfortable, and have handled the same conditions with a USO MPR, a P4f, a Std Mil Dot,a TMR, a MLR and Football Mill Dots so it is really just the tool you are used to. Get out and practice, see what works for you!
I never dial wind, but then again, I live in a part of the country where wind changes, from minute to minute, and you dont have a standard really. Out west, in the flat lands, you could have a consistent 20mph wind all day long, so why not dial? In Kentucky, in the mountains, it can be 10mph one minute, 0 the next, then 7mph right after that, so its just easier to hold.
For elevation, like you suggested in time-critical situations you might not have time to dial, but I have never ran in to that situation during a match, but then again I have never been on a stage that goes from 300-700yd with only 10-15sec to engage.
It boils down to preference.
For elevation, like you suggested in time-critical situations you might not have time to dial, but I have never ran in to that situation during a match, but then again I have never been on a stage that goes from 300-700yd with only 10-15sec to engage.
It boils down to preference.
Learn how to do it in all manner of possibilities. It should be obvious that dialing may be more accurate while holding or favoring may be quicker. Begin with the priority, speed or accuracy and improvise as necessary. Have a means to make accuracy quicker and speed more accurate. For example, start with an appropriate battle sight zero and mark elevation dial for a bullet drop compensation function to make dialing quick. Memorize holdovers to allow for more time on wind calculations. Also, consider an MOA reticle/dials. Favoring or dialing in MOA gets quick wind drift determination from simple math using the constant of 10 for calibers like .223 and .308; and, it is accurate at longer distances where precision can be appreciated.
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Steve,he ran a Tremor2 on his gas gun for this match. I myself am not a huge fan of the T2 but wont open that can of worms. Some of its shortcomings came up when he gave me his hit wind call of "1 4MPH dot" 
Steve,he ran a Tremor2 on his gas gun for this match. I myself am not a huge fan of the T2 but wont open that can of worms. Some of its shortcomings came up when he gave me his hit wind call of "1 4MPH dot"
Same here. Yep, I'll stick to the H59.
dialing vs. hold.
Reticle type is the most important thing here. Can you break down what you have to the necessary refinement. If so, hold is faster. Faster for a one time shot.
My preference is whether in mils or moa, you have a stadia type reticle. Steady breakdowns that you can split. Dots are functional, but to me they take more work than "you need X-hold +/- y. Too many differences for me between dots/half-dots/gaps. I like the constant breakdown. And, familiarity with your reticle, or this does you no good!
If your expected range is out there a ways, dialing will be easier. But, don't forget short/hold-unders. Calculate those in advance if possible. If in a match and the wind seems relatively close to one speed then then dial that. Caveat...you always need to hold for wind if it is not steady....almost always in most cases. But, a baseline for it is good to know. Also, going back to reticle useability, can you hold back when the wind drops completely off? Dialing off, then dialing back on takes time. If you see wind switching, dial off and remind yourself/take note of new hold off's. Write 'em down if you have time.
Next is zero stops. A true saviour when multiple dialings get confused. Make a point to re-zero and dial back up if you need. I'm going to bet that everyone who gave you advice has at some point, not dialed off all the way for some reason, then dialed on and hit high. Followed by a "dammit!" They get you to ground zero and knowing how you dial they go in rough increments right to almost where you need, then fine tune.
Reticle type is the most important thing here. Can you break down what you have to the necessary refinement. If so, hold is faster. Faster for a one time shot.
My preference is whether in mils or moa, you have a stadia type reticle. Steady breakdowns that you can split. Dots are functional, but to me they take more work than "you need X-hold +/- y. Too many differences for me between dots/half-dots/gaps. I like the constant breakdown. And, familiarity with your reticle, or this does you no good!
If your expected range is out there a ways, dialing will be easier. But, don't forget short/hold-unders. Calculate those in advance if possible. If in a match and the wind seems relatively close to one speed then then dial that. Caveat...you always need to hold for wind if it is not steady....almost always in most cases. But, a baseline for it is good to know. Also, going back to reticle useability, can you hold back when the wind drops completely off? Dialing off, then dialing back on takes time. If you see wind switching, dial off and remind yourself/take note of new hold off's. Write 'em down if you have time.
Next is zero stops. A true saviour when multiple dialings get confused. Make a point to re-zero and dial back up if you need. I'm going to bet that everyone who gave you advice has at some point, not dialed off all the way for some reason, then dialed on and hit high. Followed by a "dammit!" They get you to ground zero and knowing how you dial they go in rough increments right to almost where you need, then fine tune.
I have a NF 5.5x22 and in the scenario you described I've set my magnification at 11 and use the MLR reticle for hold overs. The reticle effectivity doubles at 11x, this works for me as it's only one detail to work with.
I pretty much hold over/under/off for everything unless I'm shooting movers, even on stages where there's no time constraints, it eliminates any mechanical errors that the scope might have as well as mistakes made in dialing or loosing track of my zero
^^^^^^What he said. I don't shoot comps. so the closest I get to this scenario is when I have chucks at different distances. If I have some at 150 and another group at 250 I simply remember the two turret settings and make the adjustment on each shot. That said, this thread is full of great info.
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