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Rifle Scopes Who wants a New Vortex Razor Gen3 2-12x42 with EBR-9 reticle?

blue_ridge

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 17, 2009
517
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Eastern NC
We need a serious MPVO that checks all the boxes. Lots of contenders and pretenders but it’s time to stop beating around the bush and provide a scope that can live on SPR’s, DMR’s, LTR’s and hunting rifles alike. A scope that has a minimum of 2.5x or less and max of 10x or more with the following criteria:

Great eyebox
Great reticle which works as well at min as it does at max magnification
mil/mil
Great turrets with zero stop
decent FOV
very good image quality
parallax adj
illumination
less than 28 oz

Basically a Vortex G2 HD-E 1-6x, but in 2-12x42. American company, great support for a scope that can be as good at 25 yards as it is at 500 yards. Let’s hear it. You want one?
 
I had mostly the same criteria and the only thing I could find is the PA GLX 2.5-10 with Griffin Mil reticle.
I'm very happy with it. The usable reticle on the low end was one of the bigger factors.
 
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The 1-10 doesn’t have parallax adjustment, reticle isn’t usable without illumination at low power and the elevation turret really isn’t meant to be used after zeroing, so yeah there’s a hole there that could be filled if someone stepped up. Most of the current 3-18’s aren’t usable on low power. The one that is a decent reticle is athlon but it’s Chinese, no thanks.
 
Ok, makes more sense. I’ve considered the following: (asterisks for the ones I’ve owned)
Vortex PST G2 2-10x (and G1 2.5-10x)
*Vortex Razor HD LH 2-10x
Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x
Trijicon Credo 2-10x
*Trijicon Credo 2.5-15x
Trijicon Accupoint 2.5-12.5x (and older 2.5-10x)
Eotech Vudu 2-12x
*Swampfox KYLR 2-12x
Swampfox Warhawk 2-10x
Steiner T6Xi 2.5-15x
Leup MK5HD 2-10x
*USO TS-20x 2.5-20x
Leica Amplus 2.6-15x

They all have warts IMHO. Are we asking for too much? How about a scope as good as a Razor G2 HD-E 1-6x but in 2-12x? 🤷‍♂️

It’s Chinese.
Center dot is too large
Durability is questionable
It’s Chinese.
Warranty and support not comparable to Vortex.
 
We need a serious MPVO that checks all the boxes. Lots of contenders and pretenders but it’s time to stop beating around the bush and provide a scope that can live on SPR’s, DMR’s, LTR’s and hunting rifles alike. A scope that has a minimum of 2.5x or less and max of 10x or more with the following criteria:

Great eyebox
Great reticle which works as well at min as it does at max magnification
mil/mil
Great turrets with zero stop
decent FOV
very good image quality
parallax adj
illumination
less than 28 oz

Basically a Vortex G2 HD-E 1-6x, but in 2-12x42. American company, great support for a scope that can be as good at 25 yards as it is at 500 yards. Let’s hear it. You want one?
You must actually know what you are doing.
Good luck with this. I've been begging manufacturers for years. They don't see the opportunity, and if you read all these comments, unfortunately the manufacturers are right.
 
Look what showed up in my emails today.
Just what the doctor ordered.







IMG_8810.jpeg
 
I'd buy a few of the scopes you describe, but I'd get more specific about the numbers. There will be tradeoffs.

Great eyebox - Good eye relief requires either a large eyepiece or proximity. I would sacrifice eye relief to gain FOV. An optics manufacturing company may balk at this for liability concerns. For MY SPR, I'll take 2 inches, rather than the traditional 3, as It's going on 5.56 gas guns only weighing 7 lbs+. Tempting as it may be for hunters, it should NOT go on your Seekins element in 7 PRC. Imagine the lawyers requiring a waiver to buy a scope. ACOGS with 1.5" eye relief were designed specifically for 5.56 and this should be viewed similarly.


Great reticle which works as well at min as it does at max magnification - Love the EBR 9 reticle for this, but would make 2 changes for a 2-12, which should emphasize performance at 12x.
A. Remove center dot entirely and leave a .10 mil space at the center of the crosshair, a la the mark 6 TMR reticle.
B. Cut the thickness of the illuminated interrupted circle to .1 mil. This should be sufficient with proper daylight bright illumination and it won't disappear as reticles do at 1x. With 2x at the bottom, it will have the same apparent the surface area at low mag, where it is needed. Nuclear bright illumination levels of the 1-10 would need to be retained.

mil/mil - Of course - As this is NOT a hunting scope.

Great turrets with zero stop - Better specify .1 mil adjustments, or they'll pull the .2 NX8 maneuver on you. To save weight and snag profile, I'd love the capped windage from the Gen 3. I'll take the L-tec elevation turret from the old AMG 6-24. MUST be 10 mils per turn and zero stop.

decent FOV - No less than 50' at 100 yards. More is better. The original ACOG 4X had 36' with 1.5" eye relief. I think the old binden concept would work great at 2x with a 12 degree FOV.

very good image quality - Hard to quantify glass, but say 90% light transmission or better. I'll gladly fork out $2K for top end Japanese, or better yet go back to the homegrown AMG glass idea.

parallax adj - Perfection would be to rip off the large dial at the base of the elevation turret idea from Kahles. no confusion with the illumination control and elevation/parrallax go together like peas and carrots. If pulled off the vortex shelf, the Razor HD LHT or Razor AMG parralax are simple, compact, light and straightforward.

illumination - Must have the same candela as the gen3 1-10 - don't have that on hand.




less than 28 oz - I would balk at 28 for an AR/SPR DMR for speed and balance reasons. The old PST was 18 oz and the LHT 3-15 is 19 oz. Even the LHT 4.5-22, with 50mm objective is 21.7 oz. This thing needs to balance on a 2 point sling and change directions like a fighting rifle. The stoner design was predicated on light weight - let's not ruin it. Let's do this right and allow a maximum of 20 oz.

You forgot to mention FFP, btw... There are plenty of nice, light, medium power scopes in SFP. If you don't specify it, they certainly won't make a 2-12 in FFP. Missing in this country is a shooting sport which requires leading targets moving at 5-60 mph at ranges from 50-500 yards. As a result, there is not much perceived need. Admittedly, I'm stuck with my memories of rolling tractor tires down hills with targets bungeed to them. I learned how well a balanced rifle length system performed at this, but felt I could do even better with the scope described herein. I was using Acogs at the time and they worked quite well, but lacked the adjustability and reticles needed to take it next level.

If necessary, I'd sacrifice elevation travel too, as I only need 11.5 mils to get Hornady Match to 1,000 with an 18" AR. Frontier runs hot and will do it with 9.5. Also, I'm OK with it requiring a canted mount, so 12 mils of total travel and a single turn turret will do. NO HIGH PROFILE MALL NINJA TACTICAL TURRETS PLEASE, as this is not a tactical scope. It's for a different purpose. Look at the ACOG adjustments and ponder why they are not the size and weight of coke cans.

A 30mm tube would be my preference. Fuck it, let's mill a piggyback RMR mounting point just forward of the elevation turret too.

THANKS VORTEX!!!

I'd love to hear a manufacturers explanation why they don't see a market for something so perfectly matched to the most produced rifle in the country. While I suspect they see where other similar scopes flopped, I'll argue that it ALWAYS has to do with the execution. Whether SFP, no illumination (or insufficient illumination), MOA only, no parrallax, funky reticle, chinese manfacture or just too damn heavy - You show me the MPVO and I'll tell you why I either didn't buy it.. or bought it and sold it. (Or still have it, but put it on a .22 because it's chinese) Yes, the NF 2.5-10 with mil dot was so effing close. No FFP though. I just couldn't set it at 5 or 6x and have my reticle subtend correctly... you know, 'cause it's heartbreaking when you can't rely on your reticle.

Now, let's see how the Steiner HS6i 2-12x42 sells when they release it with the mil reticle. You ARE releasing a mil reticle.......... RIGHT Steiner??? This will have the same quality and and engineering standards as your Bavarian optics, RIGHT Steiner???
 
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Sub 20oz, yes, over 22oz, not even kind of.
Brett mentions 20 oz also. Guess I was trying to not be too demanding with my 28 oz limit. Plus I looked at my XTR3 3.3-18 at 29.8 oz and thought, it should be lighter than that. I agree, for balance and versatility lighter weight should be a key attribute for a scope like this.
 
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Actually, 27 oz is fine, as long as they integrate a 1.350" height picatinny mount with 6 mils cant. Again, more of a dedicated optic and less of a hunting scope. Spending $300 on a 7 oz mount is just silly anyway. In fact, let's up the the price tag to $2,300 since we're eliminating Geissele and Spuhrs cut. An integrated mount also makes tube size irrelevant - so strike my mention of 30mm. Design whatever is lightest and most robust - As long as an RMR will piggyback with the bottom of the window just below the bell.
And...Make the side plate screws T-25 torx so that even cheap, worn bits can easily get them to 45 inch pounds.
 
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I messaged Vortex years ago about just putting the EBR9 reticle into the PST 2-10. They obviously don't think it's worth doing as that would be an easy option to dip their toes into the MPVO market.

The new Steiner HX6i pretty much does everything you've asked.
Seems like the closest thing we will get in the foreseeable future. That and the Leupold MK4 and MK5.
 
Actually, 27 oz is fine, as long as they integrate a 1.350" height picatinny mount with 6 mils cant. Again, more of a dedicated optic and less of a hunting scope. Spending $300 on a 7 oz mount is just silly anyway. In fact, let's up the the price tag to $2,300 since we're eliminating Geissele and Spuhrs cut. An integrated mount also makes tube size irrelevant - so strike my mention of 30mm. Design whatever is lightest and most robust - As long as an RMR will piggyback with the bottom of the window just below the bell.
And...Make the side plate screws T-25 torx so that even cheap, worn bits can easily get them to 45 inch pounds.
But you were doing so good...
 
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I messaged Vortex years ago about just putting the EBR9 reticle into the PST 2-10. They obviously don't think it's worth doing as that would be an easy option to dip their toes into the MPVO market.

The new Steiner HX6i pretty much does everything you've asked.
Seems like the closest thing we will get in the foreseeable future. That and the Leupold MK4 and MK5.
H6Xi is MOA only. Just have no interest in MOA any more. It should go the way of VHS tapes except in old non-dialing scopes, like Vari-X III 3-9x40’s where it is being sighted in once and forgotten.
 
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I think the closest scope might be the Mark 4 HD 2.5-10. It is available both FFP and SFP. 21.5 oz, side parallax, illumination, rev counter, mil/mil is available. I haven’t handled one but my big questions/concerns would be: 1) how is the TMR reticle at 2.5X and 10x? Does it get too thick or thin to be useful? 2) is 42 ft FOV at 2.5X gonna cut it? 3) as with everything Leupold, is it worth the price tag?
 
“Luckily, the scope weighed 27 ounces instead of 28 ounces, so I was able to hit my target every single time.”

-Nobody Ever

Some scopes in this category weigh 32oz and some weigh less than 20, so there’s a wide range. It largely depends on rifle weight. 6-8 oz doesn’t move the needle on a 22# PRS rifle, but on an AR, SPR, DMR or cross-over rifle in the 7-12# range it does make a difference in balance and maneuverability.
 
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Some scopes in this category weigh 32oz and some weigh less than 20, so there’s a wide range. It largely depends on rifle weight. 6-8 oz doesn’t move the needle on a 22# PRS rifle, but on an AR, SPR, DMR or cross-over rifle in the 7-12# range it does make a difference in balance and maneuverability.
Thank you for the clarification.

-Stan
 
After just giving up on a 27oz TT315m for this role, I’ll say it’s too heavy…at least for the large foot print of the theta. Didn’t fell any better than a 5-20US or 4-16atacr that are both 30oz or more. So footprint size also factors into the equation

24oz is the line imho. Not going to happen from Vortex in a razor line
 
I think the closest scope might be the Mark 4 HD 2.5-10. It is available both FFP and SFP. 21.5 oz, side parallax, illumination, rev counter, mil/mil is available. I haven’t handled one but my big questions/concerns would be: 1) how is the TMR reticle at 2.5X and 10x? Does it get too thick or thin to be useful? 2) is 42 ft FOV at 2.5X gonna cut it? 3) as with everything Leupold, is it worth the price tag?
They don't offer it with side focus. Just FFP and SFP, with or without illumination.
 
After just giving up on a 27oz TT315m for this role, I’ll say it’s too heavy…at least for the large foot print of the theta. Didn’t fell any better than a 5-20US or 4-16atacr that are both 30oz or more. So footprint size also factors into the equation

24oz is the line imho. Not going to happen from Vortex in a razor line

I sold this (discontinued) scope because it didn’t have side focus and that became a problem at various distances. But it’s proof that Vortex can make a Razor 2-10 at 15 oz. It was SFP and MOA though.
 
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I sold this (discontinued) scope because it didn’t have side focus and that became a problem at various distances. But it’s proof that Vortex can make a Razor 2-10 at 15 oz. It was SFP and MOA though.

A 2-10 sfp is not a 2-12 ffp w/ parallax so not “proof” of anything other that they can make that 2-10

Also I don’t see those LH razors as being in the same species as the tan HD 2, 3 and AMG.
 
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A 2-10 sfp is not a 2-12 ffp w/ parallax so not “proof” of anything other that they can make that 2-10

Also I don’t see those LH razors as being in the same species as the tan HD 2, 3 and AMG.
Maybe proof was the wrong word. It was part of the Razor line. If they were lower quality glass, they would’ve named them Venom, Strike Eagle or PST. I agree it is a different animal made for the hunting only crowd. Instead they tucked a minimalist hunting scope into the Razor line at a price where most hunters aren’t interested in a minimalist scope. If they had made this an FFP, 30 or 34mm tube, mil/mil, parallax adj, illum, etc - it would have sold much better.
 
VORTEX or someone make a quality 2-12 scope or similar with parallax adjustment, a good fov, a usable tree reticle , low pro turrets, mil adjustments , ffp , shake awake illuminated reticle and under 25 oz ! I am thinking a vortex razor line would fit the bill . Or maybe a Primary arms in their plxc line, but skip on the chevron.
 
I sold this (discontinued) scope because it didn’t have side focus and that became a problem at various distances. But it’s proof that Vortex can make a Razor 2-10 at 15 oz. It was SFP and MOA though.
It's only proof that an OEM Vortex uses can make said scope, and just because it's available in SFP doesn't mean it can be made FFP.

I have no doubt Vortex has enough buying power they could get any OEM to create the dream MVPO scope, it's just whether or not they think there is a market big enough to invest in the project.
 
VORTEX or someone make a quality 2-12 scope or similar with parallax adjustment, a good fov, a usable tree reticle , low pro turrets, mil adjustments , ffp , shake awake illuminated reticle and under 25 oz ! I am thinking a vortex razor line would fit the bill . Or maybe a Primary arms in their plxc line, but skip on the chevron.

Will Smith was like:

1708816175604.jpeg
 
I know the H6Xi turrets don't lock, but do they have a zero stop?

Nevermind, found it. They do. Yeah a mil version of this isn't missing much on paper.
 
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There was a new MIL version announced at Shotshow.

This sounds like something leupold would do after hittin the crack pipe then manage to make one bone headed decision about changing or removing a feature that kills the product in its tracks

If you read the questions submitted on the Steiner Product page, 3 people have asked about the mil reticle version and Steiner repeatedly tells them they must look at the T6Xi line for that. So I am not so sure there’s a mil version coming or Steiner‘s own people aren’t up to date on their new product announcements.