At a 3 gun match, yes. At a long range precision match nope. Carry means carry...
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Why we can't have nice things,
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You know, all those stupid Tank Traps they are using at matches, they would be better served to put up a row of those between stages, that would stop stupid shit like that.
I'm all for change! I can't wait to shoot Production Class with my Accuracy International ATX.
No, it's literally a big ass bag you can use as a cuddle pillow, shooting pillow, or a hump pillow.
Google Armageddon Gear Numero Uno.
Should I be embarrassed that I was actually debating buying one? As a hump pillow?
Shooting multiple positions off a single prop like a tank trap is not movement
taking four steps forward dropping a bag on a tank trap, is not movement, sliding over 2ft on a barricade is not movement
weight = stability anyway you slice it
movement means hustle, i have not shot a match that required hustle since 2016
the meaning behind displacement is not adjusting your firing position 8” from the previous shots, it means displace or die
taking four steps forward dropping a bag on a tank trap, is not movement, sliding over 2ft on a barricade is not movement
weight = stability anyway you slice it
movement means hustle, i have not shot a match that required hustle since 2016
the meaning behind displacement is not adjusting your firing position 8” from the previous shots, it means displace or die
Just my $0.02...If the rules waste money (or cause general inconvenience), this isn't true. People don' want to "buy in" to a game that is rigged in favour of other people who have "bought in" to some arbitrary system that rewards the performance strictly in proportion to the money spent on X (or the inconvenience willing to be borne, by some to maximize X...etc).
I like matches with hustle.
Last months club match had a long run up a hill to start the stage, jump on the gun and engage 4 different targets 2 shots each, only 90 second time limit with the run included.
My favorite though was the JC Steel match where we had the run-n-gun stage. That was about 1/2 mile of running and shooting, 8 different stages along the way 2 shots each, and you had to ruck everything that you were going to use at the match. Score was a combination of hits + total time. Great stage.
Last months club match had a long run up a hill to start the stage, jump on the gun and engage 4 different targets 2 shots each, only 90 second time limit with the run included.
My favorite though was the JC Steel match where we had the run-n-gun stage. That was about 1/2 mile of running and shooting, 8 different stages along the way 2 shots each, and you had to ruck everything that you were going to use at the match. Score was a combination of hits + total time. Great stage.
Those type of stages sound great, but it goes back to the question of what skills are you trying to test in a stage or match. That type of stage absolutely favors stronger, more physically fit competitors, and would disadvantage people who are older, out of shape, or are physically incapable of moving with that type of speed.
If the test is for pure marksmanship with multiple positions that require competitors to rebuild positions, then physical stages like that with lots of non-shooting time aren't really the best option. And the difference of moving 2 feet or 20 feet really isn't that big of a difference; you break a position, and set up again.
I mean, I'd have no qualms about making it more physical, but I bet a lot of other people would. If the intent is to grow the sport, not sure how making it more physically demanding is going to do so.
A combination of physical fitness and marksmanship is something else entirely than the PRS/NRL, and seem to already be really popular with the Competition Dynamics, Mammoth, Vortex Sniper Challenge, etc.
A lot of club matches I shoot include partially to totally disabled vets, older folks, in wheelchairs, etc. Making matches physically demanding would alienate a lot of people. I wouldn't mind it, for example, but my buddy (who is blind in one eye and missing half his left leg) would not show up to matches anymore.
There is already a venue for physically demanding matches...
There is already a venue for physically demanding matches...
I feel like you could have different matches which emphasise different things. For a competition that mimics or trains for real world target engagement, I think control of wobble zone and metabolics is fair game. I get the club level, entry level, etc match seeks to maximize inclusion, tho.
I'm gonna circle back to an earlier point: SCCA-Sports Car Club of America is a model the shooting community should examine. Very similar issues with gear races, developing skills and staying relevant. The old school divisions like Formula Ford and others are still there for the big money folks and are as popular as ever. There are also divisions which have come out relativity recently like spec Miata which is a massive division using you guessed it, a Miata built to certain specs. There is no cheap racing, the best PRS rig is still thousands less than pretty much any competitive racer and prep is even worse. But racing thrives because there's something for everyone-kinda like nrl22, 223/308 divisions etc. Oh and if you want more movement, the racing parallel is endurance racing. Most racers can't afford the fun tickets to go 6-8-12 or 24 hours, but some do. You could have matches that have increasing levels of activity to accommodate folks whose knees and back aren't shot to shit.
Vintage class could be a thing as well.
Vintage class could be a thing as well.
my gun is lighter this year than last actually. 19.5lb, shorter barrel.
i don't chase super heavy guns and weights.
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IPSC/USPSA went through almost exactly this same evolution I'm seeing here.
USPSA has a system to tier shooters based on demonstrated ability. They chose to use a set of standard stages called classifiers.
But there are several other ways to segregate shooters into ability tiers without having standard classifiers. Sporting clays, both here and in the UK, have zero standard courses of fire. Every club is different, and the course will be different one month from now even in the same club. Yet both have shooter classification systems. One based on percentiles the other based on points accumulated based on in-class finishing position.
USPSA has a system to separate equipment into different divisions based on characteristics and features, not product cost. It has divisions where you can spend $4 - 7K on a custom pistol and divisions where you can spend $500 on something off the shelf at the LGS and not be handicapped.
USPSA has a rulebook that gives consistency to safety rules, match administration, arbitration, scoring, and several other issues while giving local match directors significant latitude in designing stages and running matches.
There's a lot to be learned from other shooting sports while adapting what one learns to suit the differences between those other sports and a rifle match in wide open natural terrain. Think concepts and principles, not details.
Most of the solutions are already out there. It only takes having a mind open to learning.
I also think whoever said "define first what is to be tested" is right on point. A match is a test. Define that, and structuring the rest around it becomes much easier and clearer.
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Hi,
I do not think we can ever get to a point of everyone and everything being inclusive. The concept just does not work in reality.
IF a 400lb guy complains because his USPSA scores suck then who is really at fault?? Him or the Course??
IF a 150lb guy complains that he cannot lift the atlas stones at Strongman match then who is really at fault?? Him or the Course??
EVERYTHING has context and perspective for what the event is supposed to be doing.
For example:
I want to compete in RC airplane races but due to explosion and having to get metal removed from my eyes everyday for 2 weeks; my eyes are not level so unless the RC airplane race required everyone to keep their planes between 4-12 feet off the ground I have no doubt I would crash every single plane I attempted to race, lol
So IF I did enter that comp and crashed I knew it was coming, lol.
Bottom Line is pick the competition you want to take part in based on whatever reason(s) you want to and just enjoy that day because tomorrow is not guaranteed to any of us.
Sincerely,
Theis
I do not think we can ever get to a point of everyone and everything being inclusive. The concept just does not work in reality.
IF a 400lb guy complains because his USPSA scores suck then who is really at fault?? Him or the Course??
IF a 150lb guy complains that he cannot lift the atlas stones at Strongman match then who is really at fault?? Him or the Course??
EVERYTHING has context and perspective for what the event is supposed to be doing.
For example:
I want to compete in RC airplane races but due to explosion and having to get metal removed from my eyes everyday for 2 weeks; my eyes are not level so unless the RC airplane race required everyone to keep their planes between 4-12 feet off the ground I have no doubt I would crash every single plane I attempted to race, lol
So IF I did enter that comp and crashed I knew it was coming, lol.
Bottom Line is pick the competition you want to take part in based on whatever reason(s) you want to and just enjoy that day because tomorrow is not guaranteed to any of us.
Sincerely,
Theis
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Some of us are thinking about the issues, providing constructive input with good intentions, and can provide even more details if asked.
You're providing memes and non sequiturs.
Yeah, Lee. Knock off the humor, would you? It has no place in this discussion about changing the landscape that we've come to know as "Precision Rifle Shooting".
I like stages with multiple target....pan a decent amount to find second target and add in some movement from barricade to barricade...or barricade to prone back to barricade....heart rate gets ups etc...
Oh man, I just thought this thread was an echo chamber for non-competitors to discuss made up issues and internet rumors. If I knew they were changing our culture by going around in a circle hashing out problems that nobody has even heard of yet, I'd have stayed more on topic.
See you at the next match! (if this thread hasn't caved the PRS organization by then LOL)
Oh yeah, might as well be burpees.
We had a stage like that a couple months ago. Alternate between prone at a far target and positional off a T-crossbar metal barricade at a closer target. Change from prone to barricade to prone every shot, had to use 5 different barricade positions, 10 positions 10 rounds. No time to dial so you had to use hold-over or hold-under. Even with 2 minute par time it was very easy to time out, and it got your heartrate up for sure.
Some of my buddies texted me this thread. I see more than just a sprinkling of hide guys I’ve shot matches with over the years. Hell even our MD at the local PRS matches @Swoodhouse19 is on the thread. I know guys like him invest a shit ton of their own money to get these matches going. Hell I dropped in about 3k of my own steel and it’s not even a 1/4 drop in the bucket.
All I want to contribute is that there are people who indeed shoot matches, it not just internet typers as some might claim.
Good on the MDs, ROs, ranges, private land owners and associations that make it possible for us all to play. Good on the shooters who help other shooters and good on those that want to make tweaks to make it all even better.
All I want to contribute is that there are people who indeed shoot matches, it not just internet typers as some might claim.
Good on the MDs, ROs, ranges, private land owners and associations that make it possible for us all to play. Good on the shooters who help other shooters and good on those that want to make tweaks to make it all even better.
It’s easier to make up lies and attack people claiming they are typer snipers
meanwhile you’re all a bunch of boots
when the PRS forum is up they can all migrate over there because it’s will be real shooters with zero ass kissing and absolutely won’t be an echo chamber of ideas. Shannon won’t let it, the only echo will be his voice
you have a group that completely hates any talk of negativity and will crush people who dare to speak up, but no, here is the problem.
I for one will enjoy watching them go, I think several of you should beat the rush
meanwhile you’re all a bunch of boots
when the PRS forum is up they can all migrate over there because it’s will be real shooters with zero ass kissing and absolutely won’t be an echo chamber of ideas. Shannon won’t let it, the only echo will be his voice
you have a group that completely hates any talk of negativity and will crush people who dare to speak up, but no, here is the problem.
I for one will enjoy watching them go, I think several of you should beat the rush
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I’m not sure your replying to my comment “not just internet typers as some might claim.”
My point is that I’ve shot matches with a lot of these guys that are offering constructive ideas and not just boots or keyboard heroes because they are on the Hide. I think that validates to some degree what you’ve been saying.
Personally, I think a “production class” should have a low weight limit like <14lbs snd factory ammo available at major retailers. Not A tips loaded snd sold on the internet. I’d rename the “pro” class to unlimited and create a simple handy cap for the top 10% using PractiScore % of winners in only the unlimited class and call theses guys grand masters or whatever just not pros.
like the guys out of Wyoming or the guys out of Norther CO/Laramie range (by my house) work a club level series, Rather than creating a bunch more classes implement the handicap system for the top 10%.
I do know that the majority of shooters I shoot with at matches are stand up guys; not all but most. Some of those guys are in this very thread. Either way, I see a lot of very cool stuff being done at the club level by a hard-working group of shooters.
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I am locking this thread, complete waste of time,
for the record I was not responding to DD,
This is Dead issue, they don't care, why should we,
Instead I am building something else, a Practical marksmanship, practical rifleman collective
I have a plan, this issue is DEAD, the PRS will not address it, at all, they see their growth as a measure of success, clearly it's a measurement I don't agree with, so as they say, if you don't like build it yourself
Pencils,
Paper,
Plans....
Check
for the record I was not responding to DD,
This is Dead issue, they don't care, why should we,
Instead I am building something else, a Practical marksmanship, practical rifleman collective
I have a plan, this issue is DEAD, the PRS will not address it, at all, they see their growth as a measure of success, clearly it's a measurement I don't agree with, so as they say, if you don't like build it yourself
Pencils,
Paper,
Plans....
Check
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