- Thread starter GrantB
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As long as you have a form 1 should be wano bueno.
Sounds like they are going to throw the book at DM
I’d say that you need to contact ATF and send them a copy of your approved form one, since it sounds like someone there messed up. You do not want to ignore this, no matter how idiotic the laws are or how incorrect they may be. Ignoring it could cost you.
My opinion.
My opinion.
Im thinking I would have a lawyer send a response letter to that basically saying something like "yea, my client bought parts from them, then assembled a suppressor which is on Form 1, stamp # xxxxx, please respond"...
I would NOT personally contact the ATF directly...do it through a 3rd party...
There may be somebody on here with more ATF NFA knowledge than me that will have better advice.
ETA: are you on HK-Pro forums by chance? Guy over there screen name Straight Grain is super super knowledgable about the inner workings of the NFA world. He is on the leadership of the NFATCA organization. I have sent guys his way before on "sensitive" NFA topics.
I would NOT personally contact the ATF directly...do it through a 3rd party...
There may be somebody on here with more ATF NFA knowledge than me that will have better advice.
ETA: are you on HK-Pro forums by chance? Guy over there screen name Straight Grain is super super knowledgable about the inner workings of the NFA world. He is on the leadership of the NFATCA organization. I have sent guys his way before on "sensitive" NFA topics.
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I would do this as well, or at least consult an attorney that is well versed in the firearms industry (someone that does firearm and NFA trusts). While I don’t see how purchasing items, then being approved with a Form 1 means your in trouble, for your sake and your dogs, I would cover your ass.
I would do the same. I have no legal expertise whatsoever, but the way I read that letter is that ATF is saying that what DM was selling IS a suppressor. IF that's what the ATF is saying, then you would have needed to transfer their kits via a approved form 4 before taking possession, not a form 1 then build it yourself.
Obviously it's all complete and utter BS, but it seems like it very well could end up trap.
can't see where the parts they sold are any different than the parts currently being sold online today. Formed one several years ago, don't remember who's parts, but when i had the meeting several months ago with the ATF for my FFL license, they asked to see my can and never said anything about it.
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The ATF position seems to be the ‘parts’ are in fact suppressors and should have registered and transferred as such. You cannot do a Form 1 on a suppressor that someone else made. They have held the position that suppressor parts that are only usable in a suppressor are themselves suppressors for some time now, back when Shotgun News had an ad on one page for tubes and the facing page had wipes. This means they believe this is an unlawful transfer of a suppressor, it it therefore contraband and you’ll need to abandon it to them ASAP.
You may be entitled to a refund on the tax stamp from the Form 1, but you’ll need to argue with someone at NFA Branch about that. Legal consul is advised, as such a claim puts you in jeopardy as you would be admitting to possession of an unregistered NFA firearm. Might just want to write that off.
In case anyone wants to know, I was a Class 2 mfg for 30 years.
You may be entitled to a refund on the tax stamp from the Form 1, but you’ll need to argue with someone at NFA Branch about that. Legal consul is advised, as such a claim puts you in jeopardy as you would be admitting to possession of an unregistered NFA firearm. Might just want to write that off.
In case anyone wants to know, I was a Class 2 mfg for 30 years.
Well ATF has never been accused of being consistent and logical with their rulings. If a Form 1 is permitted, then the parts were just that, parts that were not in fact suppressors, like a completed baffle or end cap is currently held to be. That would mean current possessors of such parts are not in possession of an unregistered suppressor.
I do understand they want a copy of the Form 1, since the parts had no serial number and that's how things are really filed. How they intend to coordinate the Form 1 to those particular parts I have no idea.
The '34 act and the '68 act are so screwed up it's insane. The whole mess should simply be abolished but I'm not holding my breath on that.
I do understand they want a copy of the Form 1, since the parts had no serial number and that's how things are really filed. How they intend to coordinate the Form 1 to those particular parts I have no idea.
The '34 act and the '68 act are so screwed up it's insane. The whole mess should simply be abolished but I'm not holding my breath on that.
they could b fishing, maybe someone accidently deleted some files and now they have no clue who has a stamp
the parts are used as solvent traps. Are they illegal?
They already have a totally screwed filing system, with stuff registered to dead people, bad serial numbers, descriptions, missing paperwork, etc.. They commit perjury at every trial of illegal possession stating that their records are 100% complete and the weapon in question is not registered. That is factually incorrect and they know it.
Depends. Does the device attach to a portable firearm and reduce the sound signature by a measurable amount? If so, it's a suppressor and regulated.
does it have to attach directly? or use an adapter?
So.. Question's ? .. I have only SBR'ed on Form-1 , so I am not 100% in the loop on Suppressor e-form Form-1 .
If you purchased a ' Solvent Trap ' that is said to be nothing firearms related , Not a Firearm, or a ATF controlled firearms accessory . How is BATF given your personal info , to mail you a form letter, that they are taking action against Diversified Machine Co. ?
How is your Solvent trap even relevant to being in any violation ? .
It's not Hole/bored, also said not a BATF firearm controlled firearms accessory .
Your application Form-1, suppressor . Does your form-1 application ask, who is the manufacture ? . ( Diversified Machine Co. )
I was under the impression that the F-1 applicant is the ( listed manufacture ) of Form-1 . The Applicant is making/manufacturing a controlled accessory alone by himself . Not Diversified machine .
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your are correct
Your Biden armed political machine being activated against everyday Americans
I presume they got a warrant for the sales records of DM. The Form 1 would not have any of the DM info on it, which is why they want a copy. That does not solve any of the problems with this. Either the parts are really a suppressor or they are not. If not, the warrant request itself was falsified. If they are, then the Form 1's are invalid and the existing parts are contraband from the start. If ATF is backtracking on an approval granted to DM prior to them making the parts for sale, then this is a mess rather like the Atkins Accelerator stock.
if that's the case, i have 3 flashlights i better get rid of , with an adapter , they could b attached. Not arguing, just questioning. Thanks
If they screw on a gun and reduce the sound, it's not good.
that's what i'm pointing out, anything can b attached with the right adapter
Seems like they’re sending blanket letters out. I bought two of their plan b equivalents but no solvent trap or other parts.
True, and the adapter itself is considered a suppressor. For example, you used to find an adapter to screw a two liter plastic soda bottle to a 1/2"-28 muzzle thread. ATF ruled them suppressors and you don't see them anymore.
The list of idiotic rulings is endless. Own a semi auto 1919A4 and a 14" shoelace? Machine gun. Put an electric screwdriver on the crank handle of one of those silly trigger crank gizmos? Machine gun. Unscrew the muffler off a lawn mower engine and tape it to the muzzle of your .22? Suppressor. Stick the same muzzle into a 50 gal drum full of fiberglass bats? Perfectly fine, it's not attached. I could go on, but you get the point.
The list of idiotic rulings is endless. Own a semi auto 1919A4 and a 14" shoelace? Machine gun. Put an electric screwdriver on the crank handle of one of those silly trigger crank gizmos? Machine gun. Unscrew the muffler off a lawn mower engine and tape it to the muzzle of your .22? Suppressor. Stick the same muzzle into a 50 gal drum full of fiberglass bats? Perfectly fine, it's not attached. I could go on, but you get the point.
i have a small ranch, my sons a welder, i can guarantee you, we have probably 50 items in the shop that with modification, kinda like u have to do with a solvent trap, they could b classified as supressor parts. But i guess that's what i'm pointing out, until they are modified to adapt, they are not suppressor parts
I’d they’re going after EVERY part dm sold as needing to be registered then that opens the door to every modular suppressor mount.
Attach in any fashion. If it’s not attached, not a suppressor. If gravity takes it off, you are OK, if not, too bad, so sad.
Is the mount a muzzle break? Then it’s not a dedicated suppressor part and unregulated.
you just said an oil can can be attached and would be considered a suppressor, but now you say gravity has to pull it off. i'm out of this one, i appreciate your input, but your points have to many holes in them. This could go on all night, and i'm to tired. Happy New Year
An oil can would,reduce the sound, the muzzle break would,not.
I wondered if this would show up here. Knew I was getting mine 2 days before it showed up. I didn't get the USPS warning; they jumped straight to ExFed for mine.
I'll agree that some of what was sold there, was probably questionable. But thats not my forte, and I don't care. They're coming down hard on "center marked" parts (why does your solvent trap need center marks?), and monocores. I've also heard DM end caps were center marked and they didn't like that.
I bought 2 thread adapters. Like what would be used in automobile brakes, or HVAC, or whatever. As far as I know; aft has stated they will not interpret the written law to include muzzle adapters.
I didn’t buy a fucking silencer from DM, and I'm not alone. The Jughead that sent that abomination mass photo copy, knows EXACTLY what everyone in Chris' rolodex bought. Its all on the same damn page that our shipping addresses were on
Looking to see who turns in some naughty parts, or even an illegal can 
lots of little bits, nationwide, is a big win for them, and their fight against the private maker and F1.
Mine has been forwarded to my attorney for clarification. The ATF letter makes it sound as though ALL parts made by DM have been deemed silencer parts. Thats a big problem for lots of people, industry, and retailers alike. Start classifying all sorts of random stuff as NFA items, and just like the hiatus with braces; voila, millions of instant felons. Yeah, I'm looking at you, the guy that bought ASR Bravo adapters for all his cans.......those are all suppressors now, and you were supposed to pay the kings tax when you bought them from SiCo......
Extreme, I know, but thats where it feels this is headed.
I'll agree that some of what was sold there, was probably questionable. But thats not my forte, and I don't care. They're coming down hard on "center marked" parts (why does your solvent trap need center marks?), and monocores. I've also heard DM end caps were center marked and they didn't like that.
I bought 2 thread adapters. Like what would be used in automobile brakes, or HVAC, or whatever. As far as I know; aft has stated they will not interpret the written law to include muzzle adapters.
I didn’t buy a fucking silencer from DM, and I'm not alone. The Jughead that sent that abomination mass photo copy, knows EXACTLY what everyone in Chris' rolodex bought. Its all on the same damn page that our shipping addresses were on
Looking to see who turns in some naughty parts, or even an illegal can lots of little bits, nationwide, is a big win for them, and their fight against the private maker and F1. Mine has been forwarded to my attorney for clarification. The ATF letter makes it sound as though ALL parts made by DM have been deemed silencer parts. Thats a big problem for lots of people, industry, and retailers alike. Start classifying all sorts of random stuff as NFA items, and just like the hiatus with braces; voila, millions of instant felons. Yeah, I'm looking at you, the guy that bought ASR Bravo adapters for all his cans.......those are all suppressors now, and you were supposed to pay the kings tax when you bought them from SiCo......
Extreme, I know, but thats where it feels this is headed.
That's only half right.
Let's say you made your own brake. Easily accomplished with machine tools, we can agree. Its a muzzle brake, I copied a neat design and tweaked it a bit, where I thought it could be better.
Well, the guy in the lane next to you; he really likes muzzle brakes, they help his recoil control. Yours sounds so awesome to him, but he's never seen one like it.
After you let him take a peek, and tell him its of your own creation; he informs you that it diminishes the report of your rifle, and he works for the aft.......
You see where I'm going. Most of that shit gets tested and approved before its release to the public. Just so these type of things don't happen
Wondering now, after reading all this good info.
I did my first Form-1 suppressor recently.
I made all of it myself except the cups.
Seemed easier to buy from WTT than make them.
So now if ATF decides cups are regulated, I will have to turn in my work of art……
Next Form-1 I’ll make all of the components myself, even though making
the cups will be torture, w/ the crappy old machine tools I have.
I did my first Form-1 suppressor recently.
I made all of it myself except the cups.
Seemed easier to buy from WTT than make them.
So now if ATF decides cups are regulated, I will have to turn in my work of art……
Next Form-1 I’ll make all of the components myself, even though making
the cups will be torture, w/ the crappy old machine tools I have.
DM was targeted because they met the ATF trifecta - complete kits, center marked cones / end caps, and drill jigs. In the wake of the seizure, WTT stopped selling jigs and Quell quit with kits; they're collaborating to ensure neither becomes next.
I'm still awaiting my letter, but part of my response to the ATF will be demanding they make good on a refund for a defective tube extension I sent back. In fact, that may be my entire response...
I'm still awaiting my letter, but part of my response to the ATF will be demanding they make good on a refund for a defective tube extension I sent back. In fact, that may be my entire response...
I agree, that's the type of shit they're after. I remember when Andrew was fairly public about his fiasco; and look at him now, Otter Creek is doing awesome.
They've been after these things for a while. I've never believed in "kits"; they're bad for the industry and its consumers. With everything that's available today, you can buy it all separately anyway, so do some homework and figure it out. These guys should NOT be catering to the mouth breathers out there, who can't put 2 and 2 together.
Same here. Got the letter. Called and spoke with an agent that had no idea WTF I was talking about and he finished the conversation with “you’re probably good bro. Don’t worry about it”
please expand what you are referring to here.
There is zero reason these should not be sold as kits, centers marked and all. Even as a kit, they could never be used as a suppressor without modifying the item to work.
Drilling the holes without a form
1 is just as illegal as drilling the 3rd hole in a lower. Just because someone could do something to a product to make its use illegal doesn’t mean we should ban the sale of the non illegal item.
Why should I have to hunt around a bunch of different places and verify they will all place nice together, and place separate orders to get hopefully they same end result.
I know we are talking about the ATF and it’s rules that make zero sense. I’m referring to the above post if I’m taking it correctly.
In regards to F1 cans: you're declaring yourself a "maker", not an "assembler", or a "driller". Its all in the wording on that one, and thats just how they would use it.
Personally, I take pride in that "Maker" title. Most "kits" are just shit that fits together. Aint even all that great anyway. If you're planning on building a suppressor, you should be versed in your work. Otherwise, don't clutter the sales market, and end up one of the guys that just bitches when their F1 doesn't do mouse farts. Buy an F4.
I do agree with free market capitalism. But the same thing with the p80 "kit" fiasco. You're literally begging for the potential of illegal actions. By giving someone, with no knowledge or skill, an all but complete (insert any kit you'd like), you're practically selling "intent".
What does your solvent trap need center marks for? Does the fluid care where the middle is?
Just trying to be realistic in these times. I know it all sounds crazy.
As a “maker” myself, not necessarily in this space, as a welder and now getting into woodworking, I understand building things from scratch.
That being said, if a man wants a lower cost alternative to $1000 cans and 1 year wait times, why not have a “kit” show up at your door, that in its current state is completely impossible to use as a suppressor, you file for a form 1 that is approved in a month, drill out cups, and assemble everything into a usable product? Because “makers” screech that you Must own a lathe, learn how to use it without killing yourself, so you can turn everything yourself before you allowed to have a form 1?
The end product is all the same. A serial number and name registered with the ATF. The only difference is the number on the form, and a guy saves some money. Once again, illegal actions are owned entirely on those that do them. By selling gasoline and matches in the same store you are essentially selling arson to people.
Honestly I don’t see a single problem with having a whole kit show up at your door. If you do anything illegal that’s on you. Just because you have a paperclip and an AR15 in the same spot are you now actually in possession of a lightning link kit which is actually a machine gun?
I'm not saying I disagree with you. I believe we're both making valid points.
But isn't this thread about a letter, received by thousands, who all allegedly tried to do this very thing?
Its also about gov overreach, but that goes without saying
No. I got the letter and I bought a $60 cherry bomb mount that is now apparently deemed an illegal suppressor
Definitely about over reach, which you seemed to agree with by saying that you shouldn’t be able to buy kits because not every person owns a lathe or should have hunt all around the Internet to do the same thing and hope it all works
I bought 2 thread adapters.
Definitely don't agree with gov overreach. Never said that.
Didn't say you shouldn't be able to buy kits. I said they're bad for the industry.
Definitely didn't say one should own machine tools before attempting. I made my first two with a handmade wood jig, and some basic shit.
What I did say; is that if you're not capable, maybe its the wrong niche, and one should stick to F4. Not all F4 cans are $1k, and not all are better than a properly designed F1. Double edge sword. I also suggested that one should do their homework, and find out what works best (we're still talking solvent trap parts), so they're not discouraged by the outcome. If that means you've got to buy from more than one guy......
