How to split hairs out to 1000 yards?

0. Focus on fundamentals... the mistakes you make magnify over distance. If you can't make a reasonable group, all the knowledge in the world wont help. I hear that this website has a fairly good precision rifle online course.
1. Use a mil-mil scope. I like Vortex, but many are good.
2. Use a quality ballistics program to generate data cards for the expected altitude and weather conditions.
3. Verify data as best as possible before hunting.
4. Learn the ART of calling wind (the data card gives you the science). Past 300, it really becomes critical.
5. Figure out what is your maximum ethical range. Obviously, I assume you consider it unethical to take a shot knowing full well that the deer will likely run off.

You say you are in the North East but perhaps you mean North East VA?

If you meant the NE Region perhaps take a precision scoped rifle class at Sig Sauer Academy in NH.

MOA or mil scopes, makes no fucking difference whatsoever. The fact that you think it does means you're already reading too much useless shit on the internet.

You ain't going to learn how to shoot on the internet. Use it to find rifle marksmanship instruction. Sign up for it, then practice what you're taught.

Good advice for many.
Just think someone 1000+$ invested in a firearm and no interest in instruction.

If you live in VA, Bang Steel in SW VA runs a good instructional course http://www.bangsteel.com/

@308pirate hit the nail on the head. Get out and sling copper, and when you’re not at the range practice dryfiring at home. That’s the only way to learn. Period.

Spend 500-1000 on one solid instructional class and you will be years ahead of the DIY/internet only approach. Books and videos are great but there are details that you simply cannot train without a second set of experienced eyes looking over your shoulder.

And no, Mils don't make you any more accurate or precise than MOA. Train with an expedited long range shooter and you'll find your limiting factors quickly. It won't be the scope measurement system.

I hate to tell you but...you won't be able to split a hair at 1000 yards.

As others have said, run the gun you have...shoot as much as you can and when you can't shoot dry fire builds muscle memory and to me is as valuable as range time. Get behind the gun and spend less time on Forums. Get some training....

VooDoo

Read. Read. Read.

I learned lots here by reading.

But find somebody close to shoot with that has experience if you can’t attend a class.

There are other ways to learn.

But a reputable class would be best.

Sutherlandsd said:

If you live in VA, Bang Steel in SW VA runs a good instructional course http://www.bangsteel.com/

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Based on what they show here I would pass hard


I'd rather he drive a little farther south and west and end up at K&M in Tennessee where he will be miles ahead.

SporterII said:

Good advice for many.
Just think someone 1000+$ invested in a firearm and no interest in instruction.

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Happens all the time

308pirate said:

Happens all the time

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The rifle and reloading equipment will be for sale in a year...

308pirate said:

Based on what they show here I would pass hard


I'd rather he drive a little farther south and west and end up at K&M in Tennessee where he will be miles ahead.

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Yeah... If you want to pay for someone to be your spotter and completely ignore enforcing any fundamentals whatsoever, that's a great school!

Who needs body position, breath control, staying in rifle while cycling bolt, trigger control or even semi-level shooting platform? Apparently none of those guys!

Calling elevation changes from a single shot chasing your calls? WTF. Lol. I'm with @308pirate stay the F&*@ away from that one...

I attended Bang Steel when I was new to the sport and it was a great intro for someone who knew very little. But, they do not focus on ANY of the fundamentals of marksmanship (the body position of the guys in that video is painful to watch) - their only goal is to get each shooter to ring steel at 1,000 yards by having them walk in shots. Was it a waste of whatever the fee was? No, I did learn basic principles that are fundamental. Have I learned 10,000x that amount by getting out to the range and working with guys who are better than me and dry firing at home - absolutely no question. But overall, I'd avoid Bang Steel unless you want to start off with some really bad habits.

I almost feel like this post is a troll. Anyone who asks what the "trade secret" is for long range shooting really has no business handling a rifle. I'm also going to guess that "switching your brain from MOA to MIL" involves you "converting" to inches first. Newsflash YoungGunner... MOA is not a measurement based in inches.

Idiot behind the camera: "come up two clicks"

That right there means you wasted your money going there

Sign up for the Sniper's Hide Online Training. $15 / month! Cancel any time. Excellent video instruction on virtually every facet of long range precision shooting.... for a bargain. I agree with the other suggestions, too. But, I thought I'd throw the Online Training into the mix.

308pirate said:

Based on what they show here I would pass hard

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Clicks? Why are they talking about clicks and screwing down knobs?!? How about the guy shooting cross legged or the incompetent instructor?

Holy piss what a terrible class. Anyone can see bad coaching when it is that evident.

To the OP, start by subscribing to SH Online Training, its cheap and effective training. Dry fire as often as possible (if limited by parallax and distance, get a DFAT/IOTA). Save some money and attend a competent class, K&M 1/2 is like $1250, room included and you’ll be ahead.

I need to do the same as I am pretty new as well.

One thing this proves is how quickly these threads can completely devolve...

VAyoungGunner said:

Appreciate the useful input, to the others.. well nothing lost to let you speak your peace I guess. The question wasn’t to supplement time behind the gun and proper training it was for small tidbits you’ve learned along the way. Or if you have a favorite stock bag that you’d recommend, etc. but as usual don’t be surprised when the trolls of the internet come out to play. I’ve taken a half dozen shooting classes from defensive pistol to carbine, to two gun transitions. I’ve just come from defensive and tactical shooting not long range calculated. And funny thing about the reloader is that I run 25-30k rounds through my 1050 a year just reloading for precision is a much finer process compared to 9mm 45 and 5.56. Anyways will definitely look for a good training program.

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Just like your other disciplines, gotta spend time behind the gun and learn from those who know more than you. That’s all.

Yeah, plenty of ball busting here. Sometimes more from others. Guys with 4K plus posts generally spend more time behind the keyboard than the gun. I’d rather be out at the range vs talking shit on the internet. Guess that’s just me. Don’t let them (or me) get you down. I’m not far from VA, hit me up and I’ll take you out if you’d like and show you a few things.

VAyoungGunner said:

Appreciate the useful input, to the others.. well nothing lost to let you speak your peace I guess. The question wasn’t to supplement time behind the gun and proper training it was for small tidbits you’ve learned along the way. Or if you have a favorite stock bag that you’d recommend, etc. but as usual don’t be surprised when the trolls of the internet come out to play. I’ve taken a half dozen shooting classes from defensive pistol to carbine, to two gun transitions. I’ve just come from defensive and tactical shooting not long range calculated. And funny thing about the reloader is that I run 25-30k rounds through my 1050 a year just reloading for precision is a much finer process compared to 9mm 45 and 5.56. Anyways will definitely look for a good training program.

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Good to clarify! I think it was the original post that prompted a lot of the "train/shoot more" replies (including mine). Many of us see TONS of posts with similar lines: what's the best XXX? Or how to do this/that? Your post seemed a bit like those but I think you'll find most guys here are pretty open to sharing insights but you will need to be more specific in your questions.

There are literally hundreds of stupid tips/mistakes that we've made and learned (mostly) to avoid so it's hard to know what to make of a post asking for every tip/trick to "Split hairs at 1000". The tips?

• Have a shooter+rifle capable of shooting 1/2 MOA average for 5+ consecutive 5 shot groups. How to do this? That's it's own book...
• Learn to read the wind field to within 1-2mph of actual value. How to do this? Shoot a ton of 22lr, 223 and other non wind friendly rounds at extended range (i.e. shoot a TON at extended range for smaller calibers), learn mirage, vegetation and wind feel during range trips.
• Master fundamentals: how? Take a class or two and supplement with online training along with dedicated practice sessions focused on one or MAYBE two things only.
• Shoot with better shooters. How? Find local matches or regional matches. Doesn't matter what type of long range match but it's nice to shoot one that mirrors what you want to do. FTR matches are good to see watch and shoot for novices to simply learn wind from better shooters.
• Load better ammo. How? Refine your gear, setup and past data to learn loads more quickly
• Keep AWESOME notes for each session. How? Get data books or notepads for each rifle and bring them with you every time you shoot.
• Again, shoot matches. Why? Because you will see where your fundamentals break down under stress, excitement, and/or time restraints.
• Don't buy stupid gear. Learn your rifle, load and system inside out to the point that you wear out barrel to the point that groups double in size, then do everything you can to confirm it's actually shot out (clean, polish, reshoot test loads etc).
• Have realistic expectations. What do I mean? No one can split hairs at 1000+ yards, so use realistic words/goals to make sure you stay motivated to improve and let others know you are serious about learning. If knowledgeable shooters can't take you seriously, it will be tough to develop a relationship to learn from them.
• Should you have 90% hit probability with 1 MOA target at 1k with a 308 or even 6.5 Creed? Fuck no...more like 20%-30% on a good day with stars aligning.
• List goes on and on.

My point is this: the hardest part of long range shooting is realizing that you don't know what you don't know. By the time you think you've "mastered" some aspect of this sport, you will shoot a match or learn something about reloading technique or wind call precision that you couldn't have ever considered and feel like you are starting over.

I shoot 5000+ rounds a year through precision rifles yet every year I learn/see something that moves the goal "mastery" goal post another few miles down the road. Which is why I like this sport (and my wife hates it! ?)

...or you could subscribe to TiborasaurusRex and be splitting hairs at 2000yds! Lol ?

SubWRX nails it.

This

Many of us see TONS of posts with similar lines: what's the best XXX? Or how to do this/that? Your post seemed a bit like those

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is what led to most of the initial unhelpful responses. Frankly most people are just sick of the same ol "what's the best XXX" questions. They come across as intellectually lazy and in the end the answers given are 99.99999% opinion with nothing to back them up.

For reference, I've met a lot of avid rifle shooters who have no idea of the concept of bullet drop compensating. They just "sight in" their rifle every year before deer season and roll with it. Which is fine, if that's what you want out of a rifle. My post was directed at that sort of person should they want to extend their range beyond Kentucky windage.

Subwrx made a fine post. I'd echo that you shouldn't worry too much about perfect gear. It's better to just shoot. Last month I went ten rounds with a guy for bragging rights at the 600m line in a 12mph wind, 3MOA target. He had a $10k setup, 300WM. I have a $2k setup, 5.56. I won 7 hits to 1. The point isn't to brag, it's that time behind a gun, and care in preparation trumps $$.

I had a DOPE and wind card prepared. He figured he'd adjust off previous hits. I built a careful position, and dry fired a couple of times. He dropped down and started shooting. I adjusted my 15X optic for the situation. He cranked his 40X (yes) optic all the way and didn't bother to adjust focus or parallax. I carefully mounted my optic for ergonomics and mechanical repeat-ability. He haphazardly slapped his on the gun.

The little things add up. Good luck to you on your journey!

The devil is in the details.

Read. Read. Read.

Watch Lowlight videos. That will get you more than halfway there.

This book.

Hey, if you already made all the mistakes with MOA, you've already done the hard part. Why complicate matters by doing a whole conversion to MIL?

I asked myself the same question and the answer was, "Stay with MOA".

The reason was very simple, I bought a 600yd and a 1400yd LRF, and MilDot became redundant.

Read the book, do what it says; done.

I use mostly Savage and Stag Rifles. Sure, there's better stuff out there. But if you make it all about equipment, you'll be down the Rabbit Hole.

It's about the skills. KISS. The accomplished marksman can make most any rifle work to its full potential, and most rifles will always be better shooters than their (most) marksmen.

Greg

Greg Langelius * said:

Hey, if you already made all the mistakes with MOA, you've already done the hard part. Why complicate matters by doing a whole conversion to MIL?

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What in the actual fuck does this even mean?

OP, please don't listen to old people fossilized in their ways and unable to understand the basic technical concepts of trajectory compensation.

Content deleted by poster as unproductive and argumentative.

Note to self, never feed a troll.

Greg

They both accomplish the same thing.

They are both popular in different disciplines.

I like Mils. But I can use MOA as well.

I love listening to debates about two ways of representing an angular measurement and which is better. Absolutely fucking hilarious.

Anyone with a Jr. high aptitude in Mathematics can understand how to convert one into the other.

However, why anyone would want to do that belies their general ignorance about the proper utilization of a reticle and a measurement system.

Use whatever you are comfortable with and move on.