King of 2 Miles 2019

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 2, 2019

Here are the match docs. We will open up registration on Feb. 9th and will accept applications until the end of the month. Acceptance and Waitlist notifications will be sent out shortly thereafter. Space is limited and given the demanding nature of this match, it is really only for seasoned ELR shooters. That said, it doesn't hurt to get us an application. We have increased the number of shooters we can accept and we always clear a number of shooters off the waiting list between now and June.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them publicly. If you need clarification on something, chances are good you aren't alone.

-Alex

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

And in other news...

TUBB® / Superior Shooting Systems LLC is putting up a $10,000 prize to anyone who wins the 2019 King of 2 Mile event shooting a rifle weighing 25 pounds or under with a folding field bipod. Weight of the rifle includes scope,bipod, and any other attachments used for shooting the match. -David Tubb

So lets see what a field practical gun can do people!
-Alex

THEIS · Feb 3, 2019

Hi,

Can someone please list the Mission Statement of the KO2M?

Is it purely just an annual competition based get-together?
Is it intended to facilitate advancements in the ELR shooting, equipment and support equipment world?
Is it intended to raise awareness of ELR shooting in the attempts to grow ELR shooting in terms of participating numbers?

Sincerely,
Theis

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

A mission statement eh? I can't think of many matches that actually have one. I can tell you what our goals are though.

We want to push ELR technological development and advance ELR as a competitive type of shooting. To facilitate this, we endeavor to raise awareness of ELR in general so that market forces encourage innovation needed to make very long range shots possible. One of the things that we ultimately want is for tech development to allow for guns that can actually be used in the field for very long range engagements.

So no to 1 and yes to 2 and 3 lol... No to 1 in particular since we are likely to have 5 matches worldwide under our banner in 2019.

-Alex

THEIS · Feb 3, 2019

Hi,

So you are more of a match and not an organization?

Sincerely,
Theis

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

Our organization is FCSA. Ko2M is a match.

-Alex

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Maybe a 338 class would go over. Not many guys can afford the 375 and 40 caliber rigs that are supersonic to 3K+ yards.

Lots of guys got various 338 lapua based rigs laying around. ELR went from something like the early NASCAR days to Formula 1 in about 5 years. Lot's of potential competitors got priced out of the game before they had the chance to start.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

Skookum said:
Maybe a 338 class would go over. Not many guys can afford the 375 and 40 caliber rigs that are supersonic to 3K+ yards.

Lots of guys got various 338 lapua based rigs laying around. ELR went from something like the early NASCAR days to Formula 1 in about 5 years. Lot's of potential competitors got priced out of the game before they had the chance to start.

If you would like to start a match that focuses on light caliber ELR, we would be happy to support your efforts.

-Alex

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
If you would like to start a match that focuses on light caliber ELR, we would be happy to support your efforts.

-Alex

How did I know you would say that? The only things I lack are time, resources and a location.

However, here is how I think I would do it. I would do a combination of steel and paper. Multiple shooters on the line at one time.

Cold bore shot on 1 moa steel at 1000 yards for 10 points, then 5 shots on 36 x 36 paper bull for score 5 points possible for each shot with 1/2 moa X- ring. A 1 or 2 minute cease fire between shots and 1 minute to make each shot. Same drill for 1760 yards and 2500 yards for an 18 round match.

Any sight, 25lb limit, any bipod or sand bag and rear bag only. 10 minute prep time prior to relay.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

Skookum said:
How did I know you would say that? The only things I lack are time, resources and a location.

However, here is how I think I would do it. I would do a combination of steel and paper. Multiple shooters on the line at one time.

Cold bore shot on 1 moa steel at 1000 yards for 10 points, then 5 shots on 36 x 36 paper bull for score 5 points possible for each shot with 1/2 moa X- ring. A 1 or 2 minute cease fire between shots and 1 minute to make each shot. Same drill for 1760 yards and 2500 yards for an 18 round match.

Any sight, 25lb limit, any bipod or sand bag and rear bag only. 10 minute prep time prior to relay.

Well a minute or two between shots would certainly make it tough shooting since the wind is going to change in that span and those tiny bullets are going to get blown all over. I wonder how many hits would be crossfires lol.

We have looked at multiple side by side targets with multiple shooters at once but the terrain in raton largely doesn't permit it. Particularly not in a way that would let us spread targets far enough to be certain that the impacts we see are from the shooter that aught to be on that target.

Smaller steps might also be wise since we've never had a 338 hit past 2000 yards...

-Alex

THEIS · Feb 3, 2019

Hi,

So in regards to the following:

GENERAL RULES:
• *New* Use of equipment that is not available to the general public will not be permitted. Examples of this are LEO and military only devices.

I understand the rule is new but am curious as to something

IF this rule was in place previously would it have ruled out:
1. McM Beast from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
2. Garmin 701 from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
3. Tim Sellars (IIRC that is his name) barrel technology from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?

Does this rule affect cartridges also?
Does "General Public" mean commercially manufactured and availability?
Does this rule affect projectiles that are not on the market yet but desiring to test them at the KO2M?

Sincerely,
Theis

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
Well a minute or two between shots would certainly make it tough shooting since the wind is going to change in that span and those tiny bullets are going to get blown all over. I wonder how many hits would be crossfires lol.

We have looked at multiple side by side targets with multiple shooters at once but the terrain in raton largely doesn't permit it. Particularly not in a way that would let us spread targets far enough to be certain that the impacts we see are from the shooter that aught to be on that target.

Smaller steps might also be wise since we've never had a 338 hit past 2000 yards...

-Alex

The general idea is this:
Cold bore on moa target (steel) at each range, shows knowledge of gun and round and ability to determine conditions. Steel is easy for RO and shooter to see without needing someone in the pits.

The standard paper target measures ability to make an immediate adjustment and prove consistency.

The pause between shots shows ability to read wind and changing conditions.

1000 yards is the gateway to ELR and evryone has 1000 yard dope.

1760 yards is the magic mile.

2500 is where the big 338's start to go subsonic.

The 25 lb limit, as well as the bipod/sand bag and rear bag limit, means you are limiting competition to guns that could conceivably be taken into the woods, and measuring the shooters ability to handle the rifle instead of just making adjustments on a mechanical rest.

The small round count allows for more relays throughout the day.

Mr.BR · Feb 3, 2019

European edition that will take place in France has 2 categories ,up to .338 and .338-.50

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

Got to be honest, this sounds like an impossible event to shoot well in and even harder to actually run.

Paper targets at 1000 yards are easy cause you can have people in the pits scoring, marking and patching them. Paper targets beyond that... Great for recording groups but spotting hits on them is hard without people flagging holes with spotter disks. Then you still need to patch them after shooting strings if anyone even hits. Seeing the holes with my camera system would be a breeze. You might even be able to run a single camera for 5 targets. Relaying where shots off target were would probably take a display per shooter and you would still need to patch them.

There are reasons that we run matches the way we do. A lot of it seems arbitrary from the outside but it is all based upon experience running events. If you'd care to volunteer to help we'd be happy to show you the realities behind the firing line lol

-Alex

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
Got to be honest, this sounds like an impossible event to shoot well in and even harder to actually run.

Paper targets at 1000 yards are easy cause you can have people in the pits scoring, marking and patching them. Paper targets beyond that... Great for recording groups but spotting hits on them is hard without people flagging holes with spotter disks. Then you still need to patch them after shooting strings if anyone even hits. Seeing the holes with my camera system would be a breeze. You might even be able to run a single camera for 5 targets. Relaying where shots off target were would probably take a display per shooter and you would still need to patch them.

There are reasons that we run matches the way we do. A lot of it seems arbitrary from the outside but it is all based upon experience running events. If you'd care to volunteer to help we'd be happy to show you the realities behind the firing line lol

-Alex

The paper isn't pulled or scored during the relay. Paper is shot blind at each range using only the adjustment made from the steel target at each range. Paper is only pulled between relays. Think benchrest scoring with a mandatory 1 to 2 minutes between shots.

The RO for each position only calls impacts on steel, keeps time and watches for safety and rule violations.

BoomerC · Feb 3, 2019

So what qualifies as an acceptable weapon? Fully custom built rifle?
Savage 338 LM?
Armalite AR50?

Are competitors being judged off what they can afford? Is that the reason for all the info at the bottom of the registration form?

Are competitors being cut because of what they shoot?

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
There are reasons that we run matches the way we do. A lot of it seems arbitrary from the outside but it is all based upon experience running events. If you'd care to volunteer to help we'd be happy to show you the realities behind the firing line lol

-Alex

It wouldn't be my first time in the pits.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

BoomerC said:
So what qualifies as an acceptable weapon? Fully custom built rifle?
Savage 338 LM?
Armalite AR50?

Are competitors being judged off what they can afford? Is that the reason for all the info at the bottom of the registration form?

Are competitors being cut because of what they shoot?

Applications are judged mostly on the basis of ELR experience and then by the ability to actually shoot at targets at 2 miles. This has led to a soft cap of 375 caliber or larger as anything smaller than that doesn't really get out that far. We are willing to make some exceptions for proven shooters that wish to use 338s but we have never had a hit on target past 2000 yards with them and expect that to continue. Beyond that anything goes. AR50 would be just fine and we had an M99 take second place in 2017.

What we don't want is a match that is filled with people coming to loose and that ultimately means excluding people that just aren't geared for it. So if you applied last year with a 308 Norma (and there were 5 of them) and got put in the hundredth position on the waiting list. That is why.

This is an expensive sport. That is just the reality of it. If you want a cheap version there is always 22 "ELR".

-Alex

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
This is an expensive sport. That is just the reality of it. If you want a cheap version there is always 22 "ELR".

-Alex

....and there it is. You peasants can go be poor somewhere else.

BoomerC · Feb 3, 2019

Skookum said:
....and there it is. You peasants can go be poor somewhere else.

There it is.

Bad thing is I know where a 338 AM is that sits idle not to be disturbed.

Hell one of the AB shooters even requested fired brass to try and get his own reamer made two years ago. The fella that owns it is just a poor ole pig farmer though.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

Oh... If only there was something I could do for you poor downtrodden peasants with your... Wait a sec. Isn't an Allen Magnum going to be a $7000 plus rifle before optics?

Like I said, you want to do anything reliable at 2000 to 3000 yards, it isn't going to be with a 338. This isn't an issue of cost since 375 CTs are essentially the same price as 338 LM and 50 BMGs. This is more of a measuring contest and it looks like yours just isn't big enough.

-Alex

Geno C. · Feb 3, 2019

[QUOTE="Sandow the Heretic, post: 7513415, This is more of a measuring contest and it looks like yours just isn't big enough.

-Alex[/QUOTE]

Oh wait... there it is!!!! You play hell with the sides but you just can’t reach the bottom ?

LastShot300 · Feb 3, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
Applications are judged mostly on the basis of ELR experience and then by the ability to actually shoot at targets at 2 miles. This has led to a soft cap of 375 caliber or larger as anything smaller than that doesn't really get out that far. We are willing to make some exceptions for proven shooters that wish to use 338s but we have never had a hit on target past 2000 yards with them and expect that to continue. Beyond that anything goes. AR50 would be just fine and we had an M99 take second place in 2017.

What we don't want is a match that is filled with people coming to loose and that ultimately means excluding people that just aren't geared for it. So if you applied last year with a 308 Norma (and there were 5 of them) and got put in the hundredth position on the waiting list. That is why.

This is an expensive sport. That is just the reality of it. If you want a cheap version there is always 22 "ELR".

-Alex

If it's a soft cap why the .338 is left out? I'd call it hard cap just to be assertive.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 3, 2019

LastShot300 said:
If it's a soft cap why the .338 is left out? I'd call it hard cap just to be assertive.

If you look back at what I said, we are willing to accept a few 338s being used by people that have proven their ability to hold their own with them in competition. That is a pretty short list looking at other matches. In the end these are good shooters that have done well despite their equipment. No matter what the ballistics you can squeeze out of a 338, you are going to end up subsonic way sooner than everyone else, your misses are going to be harder to spot and the wind is going to be effecting you far more.

One of the things we wanted to do when we started was find out what worked and what didn't. The answer was pretty clear after the first few years that 338s and bellow weren't it. They do well at closer ranges but after a mile they just hit a wall. The competition starts at about a mile and goes out to 2 miles and that means if you are coming with a gun that has no chance of hitting at those ranges, you are coming to loose.

-Alex

jetmd · Feb 3, 2019

Wow this thread has turned into a real shit show.

BoomerC · Feb 3, 2019

refresh my memory, has anyone hit the 2 mile target since KO2M has started?

I am to lazy to go back and search previous matches.

THEIS · Feb 4, 2019

BoomerC said:
Bad thing is I know where a 338 AM is that sits idle not to be disturbed.

Hell one of the AB shooters even requested fired brass to try and get his own reamer made two years ago.

Hi,

Isn't that nice....Cannot get reamer from Kirby, cannot get reamer (by name) from reamer companies; so lets get case measurements and fill in the blanks on the custom reamer print request and see if we can sneak it by one of the reamer companies......

BoomerC said:
refresh my memory, has anyone hit the 2 mile target since KO2M has started?

I am to lazy to go back and search previous matches.

Yes:
2017 One shooter
2018 Three shooters
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/07/05/what-the-pros-use-king-2-miles-edition/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in regards to cartridges allowed versus not allowed.
Lets not act like the KO2M is the only shooting competition to ever do restrict cartridges, they just happen to be doing it in reverse of the normality.
Typically we see caliber restrictions on MAX size and muzzle velocity restrictions on MAX side.....KO2M is just saying the results speak for themselves and due to very very very limited spots available due to venue location that they are putting cartridge restrictions but on the MINIMUM side of the house. Which is uncommon because restrictions have always been on the MAX side of the house.

Edited To Add:
Notice the 2019 Snipers Hide Cup restrictions on calibers? Limited to short action calibers ONLY!!

Sincerely,
Theis

jinxx4ever · Feb 4, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
If you look back at what I said, we are willing to accept a few 338s being used by people that have proven their ability to hold their own with them in competition. That is a pretty short list looking at other matches. In the end these are good shooters that have done well despite their equipment. No matter what the ballistics you can squeeze out of a 338, you are going to end up subsonic way sooner than everyone else, your misses are going to be harder to spot and the wind is going to be effecting you far more.

One of the things we wanted to do when we started was find out what worked and what didn't. The answer was pretty clear after the first few years that 338s and bellow weren't it. They do well at closer ranges but after a mile they just hit a wall. The competition starts at about a mile and goes out to 2 miles and that means if you are coming with a gun that has no chance of hitting at those ranges, you are coming to loose.

-Alex

i don't shoot ELR, but what Alex has explained this entire post makes a lot of sense. There are competitions that certain calibers will compete in and others have been proven won't. He's just being honest on what will and what won't. And why waste everyone's time and energy taking a bunch of app's on shooters wanting to enter a caliber that has been proven won't. I imaging a match like this takes a lot of time and planning and they can handle only a certain number of shooters. Why take a bunch of shooters that aren't going to cut it with the guns they bring. Sounds like the old saying "know ur limitations"

Gilly · Feb 4, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
If you look back at what I said, we are willing to accept a few 338s being used by people that have proven their ability to hold their own with them in competition. That is a pretty short list looking at other matches. In the end these are good shooters that have done well despite their equipment. No matter what the ballistics you can squeeze out of a 338, you are going to end up subsonic way sooner than everyone else, your misses are going to be harder to spot and the wind is going to be effecting you far more.

One of the things we wanted to do when we started was find out what worked and what didn't. The answer was pretty clear after the first few years that 338s and bellow weren't it. They do well at closer ranges but after a mile they just hit a wall. The competition starts at about a mile and goes out to 2 miles and that means if you are coming with a gun that has no chance of hitting at those ranges, you are coming to loose.

-Alex

You’ve had shooters with 375 or larger that can’t hit the first plate at 15xx yards to move on, some even missed the berm behind it! Just because someone has a 375 doesn’t mean they can hit shit with it. So you’re saying if a guy shows up with a 338 variant and a 285 flatline that is supersonic to 3000+ yards and is a capable shooter you’re not gonna let them shoot? Talk about handcuffing the sport!

Geno C. · Feb 4, 2019

Gilly said:
You’ve had shooters with 375 or larger that can’t hit the first plate at 15xx yards to move on, some even missed the berm behind it! Just because someone has a 375 doesn’t mean they can hit shit with it. So you’re saying if a guy shows up with a 338 variant and a 285 flatline that is supersonic to 3000+ yards and is a capable shooter you’re not gonna let them shoot? Talk about handcuffing the sport!

Actually he said just the opposite. He said if there was a known capable shooter that wanted to shoot a 338 that would be the only way it would be allowed.

Deleted member 113831 · Feb 4, 2019

Why don't they just drop all the fucking pretense and make it an invitational tournament? If they are choosing who comes and who doesn't, that's more or less what it has become anyway.

Gilly · Feb 4, 2019

Geno C. said:
Actually he said just the opposite. He said if there was a known capable shooter that wanted to shoot a 338 that would be the only way it would be allowed.

“Known” being key work there and the fact it was illuded to that key factor. No one knows me from a hole in the wall and therefore I surely wouldn’t be allowed in regardless of my abilities. My point being they are limiting growth and involvement. Why not have a qualifying round 3 shots at a mile hit and you’re in type a deal? Some of the 375+ shooters might not pull that off. Or even a light projectile class and let guys play? It’s like the whole match is lay down and shoot 2 miles with nothing closer. I’m obviously wasting my time though.

jinxx4ever · Feb 4, 2019

Gilly said:
“Known” being key work there and the fact it was illuded to that key factor. No one knows me from a hole in the wall and therefore I surely wouldn’t be allowed in regardless of my abilities. My point being they are limiting growth and involvement. Why not have a qualifying round 3 shots at a mile hit and you’re in type a deal? Some of the 375+ shooters might not pull that off. Or even a light projectile class and let guys play? It’s like the whole match is lay down and shoot 2 miles with nothing closer. I’m obviously wasting my time though.

actually that part about a qualifying round with 3 shoots sounds like a good way to go.

Geno C. · Feb 4, 2019

I understand what you’re saying but I understand Alex also. The way I see it, mind you I haven’t shot the ko2m and won’t because of the time of your it’s shot, it’s a big gun shoot. If you want to be the little gun guy, go shoot a couple other elr tournaments with a 338 and place well and then you’re considered. I find that to be a good thing because slots are so limited. If a guy happens to be fast signing up and gets in with a 338 and just wants to say he shot ko2m and does terrible because the round isn’t up to the task with him as a shooter, then that just took a spot from someone else with a better chance at being competitive.

There are plenty of things I can pick apart that I don’t agree with that ko2m does, but it isn’t my tournament. I’m not forced to go and shoot by their rules if I don’t like them. I don’t like some rules at a local shoot but I want to shoot it because I have friends there and love to shoot. I shoot a gun there that falls into their set rules. Their rule about mother bigger than a 338 is shitty for some of my friends because they like shooting their 375s. Guess what, we’ll build some big ass 338s now!

If you don’t like their equipment rule of their scoring or any number of things they do; then don’t shoot it. Shoot somewhere else. Ko2m isn’t the only place to shoot way out there. They’re not even the only tournament that shoots way out there. Just move on and don’t sweat the small shit.

Geno C. · Feb 4, 2019

jinxx4ever said:
actually that part about a qualifying round with 3 shoots sounds like a good way to go.

You think a guys would sign up and make the trip and get hotels with only a promise of being able to shoot a 3 round qualifying round and possibly be sent home. Where do you cut off the sign up for the qualifier? What if everyone qualifies??

Gilly · Feb 4, 2019

Geno C. said:
I understand what you’re saying but I understand Alex also. The way I see it, mind you I haven’t shot the ko2m and won’t because of the time of your it’s shot, it’s a big gun shoot. If you want to be the little gun guy, go shoot a couple other elr tournaments with a 338 and place well and then you’re considered. I find that to be a good thing because slots are so limited. If a guy happens to be fast signing up and gets in with a 338 and just wants to say he shot ko2m and does terrible because the round isn’t up to the task with him as a shooter, then that just took a spot from someone else with a better chance at being competitive.

There are plenty of things I can pick apart that I don’t agree with that ko2m does, but it isn’t my tournament. I’m not forced to go and shoot by their rules if I don’t like them. I don’t like some rules at a local shoot but I want to shoot it because I have friends there and love to shoot. I shoot a gun there that falls into their set rules. Their rule about mother bigger than a 338 is shitty for some of my friends because they like shooting their 375s. Guess what, we’ll build some big ass 338s now!

If you don’t like their equipment rule of their scoring or any number of things they do; then don’t shoot it. Shoot somewhere else. Ko2m isn’t the only place to shoot way out there. They’re not even the only tournament that shoots way out there. Just move on and don’t sweat the small shit.

And I don’t disagree with a lot of what you are saying. However I’ve watched the videos and when guys struggle to get on first target and are done and it’s less than a mile I know that smaller rounds are just as capable and would have outscored that/those shooter/s so obviously having a .375 and up shouldn’t be the only qualification

steve123 · Feb 4, 2019

If they had the space, time, logistics, and volunteers, I bet they would allow a sub .375 division, they'd get more $ doing so. Just stop at a 2000Y limit.

Maybe someday, but I can see why the .375 and up, "point" , that he's making with what he has to work with for now.

Geno C. · Feb 4, 2019

375 isn’t the only qualification

IntoTransonic · Feb 4, 2019

Gilly said:
“Known” being key work there and the fact it was illuded to that key factor. No one knows me from a hole in the wall and therefore I surely wouldn’t be allowed in regardless of my abilities. My point being they are limiting growth and involvement. Why not have a qualifying round 3 shots at a mile hit and you’re in type a deal? Some of the 375+ shooters might not pull that off. Or even a light projectile class and let guys play? It’s like the whole match is lay down and shoot 2 miles with nothing closer. I’m obviously wasting my time though.

I certainly don’t believe for one second they are limiting growth ..... very much the opposite. Be honest and take a look at all of the ELR matches around the country.
Spring/Fall .... Southeast Ga/Arena Training Favility
April ... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Fall .... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Kansas matches throughought the year .... Spearpoint Ranch
Nightforce ELR at Q Creek ... this one will be huge this year
Camp Atterbury ELR Match

Look at all of the KO2M matches coming around the world.

I believe your notion that it’s limiting growth is grossly overstated. The only thing limiting your opportunity is yourself brother ..... get out there and shoot a ELR match. There are plenty of opportunities to show your ability. I can’t be anymore positive than this.

The growth of ELR is crazy right now. Take a good luck at the product development ongoing ... business only produce new product when there are potential buyers, and there are a lot of new shooters who are enjoying the ELR sport.

I wish you luck.
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
JJ Rock ELR Team
RLTW

Gilly · Feb 4, 2019

IntoTransonic said:
I certainly don’t believe for one second they are limiting growth ..... very much the opposite. Be honest and take a look at all of the ELR matches around the country.
Spring/Fall .... Southeast Ga/Arena Training Favility
April ... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Fall .... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Kansas matches throughought the year .... Spearpoint Ranch
Nightforce ELR at Q Creek ... this one will be huge this year
Camp Atterbury ELR Match

Look at all of the KO2M matches coming around the world.

I believe your notion that it’s limiting growth is grossly overstated. The only thing limiting your opportunity is yourself brother ..... get out there and shoot a ELR match. There are plenty of opportunities to show your ability. I can’t be anymore positive than this.

The growth of ELR is crazy right now. Take a good luck at the product development ongoing ... business only produce new product when there are potential buyers, and there are a lot of new shooters who are enjoying the ELR sport.

I wish you luck.
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
JJ Rock ELR Team
RLTW

The suggestion that a big 338 can’t participate in an ELR event such as this, one of the more advertised ELR matches, doesn’t limit anything? It says I need a .375 and spend a bunch of money to shoot past 2000 yards? That’s all laughable. Tell my 6.5 Saum and 300 Norma they can’t shoot past 2000 yards they missed the memo! ?

I’m not suggesting everyone with a savage 338 lapua and factory 285 hornady ammo should get in. However, there are some big 338’s and new 285 flatline that extend the range of that caliber.

I’m aware there are other matches out there that don’t have this limit, like Q creek, I’d love to shoot that one, but they aren’t the topic of this thread.

badassgunworks · Feb 4, 2019

THEIS said:
Hi,

Isn't that nice....Cannot get reamer from Kirby, cannot get reamer (by name) from reamer companies; so lets get case measurements and fill in the blanks on the custom reamer print request and see if we can sneak it by one of the reamer companies......

Yes:
2017 One shooter
2018 Three shooters
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/07/05/what-the-pros-use-king-2-miles-edition/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in regards to cartridges allowed versus not allowed.
Lets not act like the KO2M is the only shooting competition to ever do restrict cartridges, they just happen to be doing it in reverse of the normality.
Typically we see caliber restrictions on MAX size and muzzle velocity restrictions on MAX side.....KO2M is just saying the results speak for themselves and due to very very very limited spots available due to venue location that they are putting cartridge restrictions but on the MINIMUM side of the house. Which is uncommon because restrictions have always been on the MAX side of the house.

Edited To Add:
Notice the 2019 Snipers Hide Cup restrictions on calibers? Limited to short action calibers ONLY!!

Sincerely,
Theis

don't worry my guess is at some point in time they will limit h20 as well

THEIS · Feb 4, 2019

Hi,

@Sandow the Heretic

I think my previous post got buried in the cost analysis bundle so asking again, lol.

So in regards to the following:

GENERAL RULES:
• *New* Use of equipment that is not available to the general public will not be permitted. Examples of this are LEO and military only devices.

I understand the rule is new but am curious as to something

IF this rule was in place previously would it have ruled out:
1. McM Beast from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
2. Garmin 701 from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
3. Tim Sellars (IIRC that is his name) barrel technology from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?

Does this rule affect cartridges also?
Does "General Public" mean commercially manufactured and availability?
Does this rule affect projectiles that are not on the market yet but desiring to test them at the KO2M?

Sincerely,
Theis

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 4, 2019

steve123 said:
If they had the space, time, logistics, and volunteers, I bet they would allow a sub .375 division, they'd get more $ doing so. Just stop at a 2000Y limit.

Actually no... We have discussed classes and have decided that we aren't interested in a match formatted that way. We want everyone that comes to compete for King so that we can see on a level playing field what works. There are special prizes put up by individuals and manufacturers for certain types of achievements that do a pretty good job of awarding other things. Also keep in mind we run this match as a personal loss to all three of us so expanding at the cost of adding more match days or compromising quality is not particularly attractive.

Gilly said:
The suggestion that a big 338 can’t participate in an ELR event such as this, one of the more advertised ELR matches

We advertise? That is news to me lol

Gilly said:
And I don’t disagree with a lot of what you are saying. However I’ve watched the videos and when guys struggle to get on first target and are done and it’s less than a mile I know that smaller rounds are just as capable and would have outscored that/those shooter/s so obviously having a .375 and up shouldn’t be the only qualification

Having a 375 or better doesn't get you a spot. Having less than a 375 probably gets you excluded though. Remember, first and foremost we look at prior match experience and performance. If you are in the top 5 of any other ELR match then we are going to let you in.

Skookum said:
Why don't they just drop all the fucking pretense and make it an invitational tournament? If they are choosing who comes and who doesn't, that's more or less what it has become anyway.

We have no interest in doing an invitational match. Good shooters come from all over and every year about half of the shooters are first timers at Ko2M. But if you want to keep bitching about stuff that you evidently know nothing about; what are logic, reason or facts to get in your way?

badassgunworks said:
don't worry my guess is at some point in time they will limit h20 as well

Again... What are you talking about?

THEIS said:
Hi,

@Sandow the Heretic

I think my previous post got buried in the cost analysis bundle so asking again, lol.

So in regards to the following:

GENERAL RULES:
• *New* Use of equipment that is not available to the general public will not be permitted. Examples of this are LEO and military only devices.

I understand the rule is new but am curious as to something
IF this rule was in place previously would it have ruled out:
1. McM Beast from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
2. Garmin 701 from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?
3. Tim Sellars (IIRC that is his name) barrel technology from being used because at the time is was not available and actually used the KO2M as T&E?

Does this rule affect cartridges also?
Does "General Public" mean commercially manufactured and availability?
Does this rule affect projectiles that are not on the market yet but desiring to test them at the KO2M?

Sincerely,
Theis

OMG... an actual question

Tech that is custom or in development is all fine. Tim's barrel tech (which seems to be based upon the darkest magic) is all good by us. Matter of fact, he is one of the few people we wouldn't blink at using a 338. What this is focused on is devices that are commercial products with sales restricted either by law or by the companies that make them to government or industrial sectors. For instance, if I spoke to X vendor at Shot Show and told them there was a lot of interest in their product in the ELR community and their response was, "Thats nice but we won't sell to civilians and anyone that has our gear got it second hand from a legit buyer." Then our logical conclusion is that the use of such gear is restricted to people with contacts and may give them an unfair advantage in a competition where we want everyone on a level playing field... or at least the same mountainous playing field.

To conclude this rather long post for those with the endurance to get this far let me clarify something so there are no misunderstandings. If you have shot our match or are a match director or even have been a spectator at our match, then we welcome feedback from you. If you have never been to our match or run one of your own, we really don't care how you think we should run things. Historically, 99% of complaints and suggestions come from people that never have and probably never will attend our match or any other for that matter.

If you feel strongly that a match should be run differently, start your own. Seriously. We will help with logistics in any way we can from places to shoot, steel to shoot at or camera systems to view impacts with. There aren't nearly enough ELR events out there to meet demand and the ability of Eddie, Walt and I to run more events is extremely restricted by our work and day to day lives.

-Alex

Lynn Jr · Feb 4, 2019

Theis
You got his name correct and his super secret barrel technology started off as a Bill Calfee inspired tuner.
I think he finished in 2nd place the first year using his 1000 yard 300 magnum and then switched to a 338 edge?
He makes the SureFeed ammo holders I use and his craftsmanship is excellent.
For those unfamiliar with his ammo feeder it drops a round into the same location so you don't have to sweep left or right across a pegboard style ammo holder.

northern50 · Feb 5, 2019

IntoTransonic said:
I certainly don’t believe for one second they are limiting growth ..... very much the opposite. Be honest and take a look at all of the ELR matches around the country.
Spring/Fall .... Southeast Ga/Arena Training Favility
April ... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Fall .... WLSC Valdina Ranch
Kansas matches throughought the year .... Spearpoint Ranch
Nightforce ELR at Q Creek ... this one will be huge this year
Camp Atterbury ELR Match

Look at all of the KO2M matches coming around the world.

I believe your notion that it’s limiting growth is grossly overstated. The only thing limiting your opportunity is yourself brother ..... get out there and shoot a ELR match. There are plenty of opportunities to show your ability. I can’t be anymore positive than this.

The growth of ELR is crazy right now. Take a good luck at the product development ongoing ... business only produce new product when there are potential buyers, and there are a lot of new shooters who are enjoying the ELR sport.

I wish you luck.
Chris Schmidt
Tennessee
JJ Rock ELR Team
RLTW

I agree with Chris. By being selective and choosing people who performed in other matches grows the sport. Showing up to matches like Spearpoint , Texas, west coast events is noticed by those looking. By having a top tier match like KO2M it puts those who want to work for it in a position to work for it. KO2M has grown to an event that is one of the top levels of ELR in the last few years because they pioneered something, sponsors are on board and their marketing strategy works. Alex, Eduardo and Walts game, don't like it, try another flavor elsewhere.

Garrett.

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 8, 2019

Registration is now open. We will have it open until the end of the month but waiting until the last moment is probably not the best plan.

-Alex

Geno C. · Feb 8, 2019

I thought noon tomorrow...

Sandow the Heretic · Feb 8, 2019

Yeah, looks like I got my date messed up but it doesn't matter either way. Honestly I'd rather deal with most of them on a Friday lol. We aren't choosing who gets in until the registration window closes at the end of the month so it doesn't matter much either way.

-Alex

timintx · Feb 10, 2019

Lynn Jr said:
Theis
You got his name correct and his super secret barrel technology started off as a Bill Calfee inspired tuner.
I think he finished in 2nd place the first year using his 1000 yard 300 magnum and then switched to a 338 edge?
He makes the SureFeed ammo holders I use and his craftsmanship is excellent.
For those unfamiliar with his ammo feeder it drops a round into the same location so you don't have to sweep left or right across a pegboard style ammo holder.

Lynn you are not giving yourself much credit on this stuff, Many years ago it was you that inspired me to find out exactly what vibrations do and how they are effecting on the target. You were the first to say it was possible and then Al Harrell jumped in with computer modeling that confirmed to a tee what I was seeing .We were all just trying to settle the tuner arguments back then . We have come way beyond the tuners since then so thank you and Calfee and Varmint Al for the help in starting me down this exciting road to discovery.

timintx · Feb 10, 2019

Sandow the Heretic said:
Actually no... We have discussed classes and have decided that we aren't interested in a match formatted that way. We want everyone that comes to compete for King so that we can see on a level playing field what works. There are special prizes put up by individuals and manufacturers for certain types of achievements that do a pretty good job of awarding other things. Also keep in mind we run this match as a personal loss to all three of us so expanding at the cost of adding more match days or compromising quality is not particularly attractive.

We advertise? That is news to me lol

Having a 375 or better doesn't get you a spot. Having less than a 375 probably gets you excluded though. Remember, first and foremost we look at prior match experience and performance. If you are in the top 5 of any other ELR match then we are going to let you in.

We have no interest in doing an invitational match. Good shooters come from all over and every year about half of the shooters are first timers at Ko2M. But if you want to keep bitching about stuff that you evidently know nothing about; what are logic, reason or facts to get in your way?

Again... What are you talking about?

OMG... an actual question

Tech that is custom or in development is all fine. Tim's barrel tech (which seems to be based upon the darkest magic) is all good by us. Matter of fact, he is one of the few people we wouldn't blink at using a 338. What this is focused on is devices that are commercial products with sales restricted either by law or by the companies that make them to government or industrial sectors. For instance, if I spoke to X vendor at Shot Show and told them there was a lot of interest in their product in the ELR community and their response was, "Thats nice but we won't sell to civilians and anyone that has our gear got it second hand from a legit buyer." Then our logical conclusion is that the use of such gear is restricted to people with contacts and may give them an unfair advantage in a competition where we want everyone on a level playing field... or at least the same mountainous playing field.

To conclude this rather long post for those with the endurance to get this far let me clarify something so there are no misunderstandings. If you have shot our match or are a match director or even have been a spectator at our match, then we welcome feedback from you. If you have never been to our match or run one of your own, we really don't care how you think we should run things. Historically, 99% of complaints and suggestions come from people that never have and probably never will attend our match or any other for that matter.

If you feel strongly that a match should be run differently, start your own. Seriously. We will help with logistics in any way we can from places to shoot, steel to shoot at or camera systems to view impacts with. There aren't nearly enough ELR events out there to meet demand and the ability of Eddie, Walt and I to run more events is extremely restricted by our work and day to day lives.

-Alex

Thank you Alex for the highest of complements. Although I am grateful for allowing me to use the smaller calibers for proving out the rifle I do agree with the 375 minimum ,and in my opinion it should be the minimum caliber for the distances at or around 2 miles I looked at all of the matches and point wise the 375 and up almost always wins out over the 338 with the exception of Ryan Cheney However I believe even Ryan will loose out if he tried the ko2m with a 338 even if it is a really fast round, The stats tells it all and in a mountain terrain a 338 at 2500 and beyond is going to loose out even more so I think. I have learned my lesson trying to deal with not only spotting at distance but one of the toughest places [wind wise] in the world to shoot as well. If people only knew how hard the first target is to hit in a 15 mph fishtailing wind regardless of caliber.People need to realize even the big rounds get pitched around but that is what it takes to hit the target with enough authority to spot and score in those most difficult conditions at huge distances.

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