The fate of the Remington 700 in 2017

To shoot it.

tylerw02 said:

I think you missed the point with your smartness response.


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What make you think I missed the point? Because I answered a silly question with a silly answer. Sorry.


Why buy a remington, tikka, savage, howa, ruger? because they are cheap and my budget can't make a sako, AI, Desert Tech, MRAD. Or maybe so we can make erroneous arguments about which one is a "better buy." "Because I made a smarter choice than you." Who knows. This thread comes up every few months. Then a bunch of brand puffing and bull shit stories show up.... Then I laugh some more.....

Buy a high-point and good luck. Out of the box probably savage wanna spend more takka.soko or go full custom read more everything you asked is already here

I grew up in a 700 or die family, and while my father would never be able to admit they aren't what they use to be, I can see and feel the differences in quality from his to mine (25 year span). I cant imagine building a gun on any other style action, but I wouldn't waste my time with a factory action as a base. It's not worth the savings to me. If I were to buy a rifle with no intentions of altering it from the factory and had to remain on a budget, it would be a Tikka in a lightweight rifle. There are no factory offerings in long range heavy profile that interest me from any maker.

The 700 is proven. Why do you think Defiance actions are based on the 700 footprint and have improved every aspect of what they have to offer. If you buy a bargin basement action you end up spending as much to improve it as a Defiance in the end.

tylerw02 said:

Why would you buy a 700 today?

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I can't think of a single reason: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-rifles/6741169-howa-1500-hcr-in-6-5cm-review

IanHusaberg said:

The 700 is proven.

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Then why are there so many "enhancements" to it?

IanHusaberg said:

Why do you think Defiance actions are based on the 700 footprint

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To take advantage of a huge aftermarket in stocks, triggers, magwells, etc. Has absolutely nothing to do with the intrinsic quality of the M700 action.

IanHusaberg said:

If you buy a bargin basement action you end up spending as much to improve it as a Defiance in the end.

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What?

Cylindrical push feed actions are cheap to make, which makes them common. Cylindrical actions are easy to true, this makes them cost effective for gunsmiths. It's easy to see why the 700 has become the default footprint for so many stocks, and the basis for so many custom actions.

If you want cheap but effective long range fun, Howa 1500. Next step up is a Tikka. Once you're that far down the slope, just go custom or AI/Sako etc.

**EDIT**

Further to that. Remington still sells rifles because of everyday hunters who ask gun shop staff for guidance rather than research things themselves. Are they going to know the difference hunting at 100yds between a Sauer and a Remington?

If Remington really wanted to sell the best product possible, they would have poached engineers from Defiance, Surgeon, Pierce and Stiller long ago. They market a budget product for a specific price slot.

Look at the MSR. They're capable of modern engineering, It just isn't going to sell more rifles to everyday folk, leave that to the marketing department.

In an answer to your question, there are plenty hunters and first time long range wannabe shooters that will buy the 700.

As to your other question, one shouldn't buy the 700p as a long range beginners platform. With the Howa and Tikka T3x readily available and supported by a growing aftermarket, better options are available for the same budget dollars.

The exception might be the occasional person who can pick up a used 700 for $300-400 and just happens to like building their own. The Tikka action will still be smoother, but just like before, you can make a 700 do what you need to.

A majority of rifle owners/buyers will put no more than a couple boxes of factory ammo through their rifle each year; that is Remington's market, not volume precision shooters like people on this website.

Reality is Average Joe can't fathom or really afford dropping $800-900 on a CTR, HCR or HMR, let alone $1100 on a RPR, then another couple hundred on scope bases/rings and another grand or two on optics. If they could do that, they typically can't or won't swing $200-250 for a 200rd case of ammo. No, they're going to Academy or Wal-Mart or Cabelas and buying a <$400 700 ADL (or Savage or Ruger American) and might even have to wonder what their money is getting them beyond an Axis II or 783. They boresight, then put three rounds on a pie plate at 100 yards and go hunt deer, then the rifle resides in a closet or case or safe for most of the next 364 days.

I can get a bare 700 action for less than $350; even having it trued with comparable features added it still is less expensive than most 700-pattern custom actions. Sure a Defiance or Mausingfield or Bighorn or "just" Stiller is "better", but is it $200 better than a trued 700? $400 better? $600 better? Would the "average" shooter see benefit from a "better" action, or that money spent practicing?

To OP's point, YES there are better mousetraps made today, but decades of learned behavior and this shit getting pretty expensive are going to make it hard to get people away from their Remington and Leupold...

tylerw02 said:

It is evident you missed the point as you failed to address it.

These days it seems Remington rifles are low quality and high price. If you need a "budget" rifle, Remington is outclassed by most other rifle makers in both quality and feature set. So why would it be silly to question why they are the "go-to" for so many when other options are out there with real advantages.

And I don't shoot my rifles. I shoot the target

Austin, like you I've been a big Remington guy with quite a span too. I grew up with them and shot them for years. I recently went to a shop and handled a few potential "donor rifles" and was quite disappointed in where they are today. I've actually had a few of the customs that were disappointments compared to my older Remington actions; bolts that bound, poor ejection, etc. for $475, Tikka seems like a good base to build on, though I'll probably go with something else but I see the allure.


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[h=1]shoot [shoot] [/h] Spell Syllables

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com verb (used with object), shot, shooting. 1. to hit, wound, damage, kill, or destroy with a missile discharged froma weapon.

2 .to execute or put to death with a bullet:
to be shot at sunrise.

3. to send forth or discharge (a missile) from a weapon:
to shoot a bullet.


Are the Tikkas smother? Sure. They are nice, but for 800-1000. You get a good BA in a tupperware stock. With remington for 500-600 {300-400 for sporter barrel} you can get a good BA in a tupperware stock. Now I pick the stock and can still keep it 800-1000. If I liked the HS, I would have no problem buying a 700P to start.

I just bought actions and screwed Criterion barrels into them. 350+350, but I already have stocks, triggers, bases. Is the aftermarket coming along for the others, sure and its nice, but its still no where near what the aftermarket following for Remington is. Not just new stuff, but used parts.

I think the context of the original question was what we do here: precision rifle shooting. In that context, factory offerings from Remington are simply outclassed by several players already mentioned. That's a fact.

Cheap hunting rifles are a completely different story and, I think, not what the OP was talking about.

308pirate said:

I think the context of the original question was what we do here: precision rifle shooting. In that context, factory offerings from Remington are simply outclassed by several players already mentioned. That's a fact.

Cheap hunting rifles are a completely different story and, I think, not what the OP was talking about.

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Good thing the persicion shooting police have arrived and are present in this thread. What would we do without the deep thoughts of 308pirate. Precision shooting is a journey, maybe you are forgetting we all start somewhere with a rifle, whatever it may be. One mans definition of precision may varied to the next and I don't think we need the dictionary definition from professor dickweed.

IanHusaberg said:

Good thing the persicion shooting police have arrived and are present in this thread. What would we do without the deep thoughts of 308pirate. Precision shooting is a journey, maybe you are forgetting we all start somewhere with a rifle, whatever it may be. One mans definition of precision may varied to the next and I don't think we need the dictionary definition from professor dickweed.

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Nothing useful added, par for the course

Some ramblings...

I remember the old days, Weatherby, Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Slaveage. It was pretty easy to pick the Remington in a post 1964 world until the last decade or so if price was an object.

My go-to was an all that could be done to it M700 custom. It wasn't perfect but what is. I went on to a Mausingfield which has one fault.

Will I consider another M700 in stock form, unlikely, especially considering the reports of poorer quality as of late. It's relevance has diminished considerably to me. The truth is most shooters wouldn't know the differences in one brand's action vs another enough to make a determination other than this looks better than that.

I was considering doing a Tikka custom in 2018 myself but it appears the bolt stops are a weak point so I'm looking at other alternatives now. Maybe an aftermarket fix will come about.

The Howa mini action has caught my eye. So far I think I'll go that route for the 224V bolt rifle I'm interested in doing. Or maybe a good ole CZ527. However I'd really like a action platform that would accommodate 6.8 SPC AR mags!

I got into shooting comparatively late since where I grew up firearm ownership was actively discouraged. When I really started paying attention, R700 quality was already declining rapidly. There were a bunch of components available for it and it was a good basis to build a gun, but basically you were just buying an action. If you wanted something that shoots with minimal fuss, you went elsewhere. Nowadays, with a bunch of aftermarket accessories for other actions, there is really very little reason to stick with R700.

Another consideration is that if people keep buying substandard products, manufacturers are not compelled to get better.

ILya

Not sure if this helps at all but I had picked up a 700 in 223 to build up as a trainer and had many of the issues stated. I do agree they are suffering from major QC issues. I would suggest to anyone looking now a days getting into a tikka, RPR, Bergara or a gas gun if you feel more comfortable on gas guns vs bolt. Going back I would have gotten a tikka to build off of. I think Remington is in a phase of mind that feels they will survive based off of their past vs improving and innovating.

Most gunsmiths refuse to work on anything but a 700. So yeah, there's a reason they still exist. It's a stupid reason, but it's there.

I must be lucky, as the three 700 308s I've owned over the last few years (26" ADL Varmint, AAC-SD and 16.5" Tactical) were all consistently sub-MOA with the 168gr Amax over Varget and I had no issues with bolts breaking off, misaligned scope base holes, crooked recoil lugs or many of the other issues reported here.

Small sample size for sure, but all were RR actions.

Of course, I only have one 700 in my safe today and its a custom build, not a factory rifle...

<shrug>

Twinsen said:

Most gunsmiths refuse to work on anything but a 700. So yeah, there's a reason they still exist. It's a stupid reason, but it's there.

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Most gunsmiths where? I know a few gunsmiths and not one of them would refuse to work on anything I have. In fact, most of them mostly recommend better actions. I'm not picking at you, your statement just reminded me of the old "Nine out of ten dentists recommend Crest" commercial.

That aside, and to BoilerUP's point. I still have three 700's, two stock factory hunting rifles and one that was purtied and squared up with a PTG bolt. They shoot just fine and I have also not run into the issues mentioned frequently. But that doesn't mean it's what I would use for a precision rifle today as there are better options for the same $ for that. I do have a tendency to replace the triggers right away though, as mine are not vintage actions.

1) the remington 700 is a fine rifle.......they shoot a reliable 1-1.5MOA and are generally around ~$600-700......thats really not a bad deal in terms of performance and cost

2) remington doesnt make guns for you, honestly, prs and preciaion shooters are a TINY percentage of the market.......90%of remingtons sales are to hunters and LEO/MIL where shooting 1MOA is just fine.....honestly its more "practical accuracy" than anyone really needs.

Remington is going to keep on selling the 700 until they stop making money off it

308pirate said:

Nothing useful added, par for the course

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Sorry, I'm not a know it all, like some to here pressume to be!

Another note, I have been considering buy my wife a Cabela's package Remingtion 738 308 w/scope for $300 w/$50 factory rebate. Not sure if its a 700. She is just starting to hunt and shot cartridges capable of killing elk. I don't think she needs to shoot five bullets in one hole or elk will care if she can.

IanHusaberg said:

Sorry, I'm not a know it all, like some to here pressume to be!

Another note, I have been considering buy my wife a Cabela's package Remingtion 738 308 w/scope for $300 w/$50 factory rebate. Not sure if its a 700. She is just starting to hunt and shot cartridges capable of killing elk. I don't think she needs to shoot five bullets in one hole or elk will care if she can.

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If you're referring to a Remington 783 (http://www.cabelas.com/product/REMIN...LE/1999982.uts) then no that is not a 700. A 783 is a downgraded 700 that's more cost effective. It makes a decent Hunting rifle for a novice, and is accurate enough to take game under 200 yards, but I'd stay under 100 if possible. But a .308 for Elk? Not that it's not capable, it definitely is. But in MY opinion, that's pushing it unless she can put the bullet where it needs to be, and the odds may be a bit against her, throwing in a novice shooter, lowish quality 783 and .308's power level...

A 700 will step up in quality, fit, finish, accuracy and a few bucks (Though the modern 700 is significantly worse in quality control than 80s/90s 700s).

So when did Remington officially go downhill? I inherited a 700 in 7mag from my father and it shoots pretty damn good for a stock rifle. It is probably 10 years old give or take. The rifle is my first Remington and I literally have zero complaints with it especially given its intended use as a hunting rig. Just curious if my dad got lucky when he purchased it or are the Remington woes a more recent phenomenon?

Remington is living on their past reputation and a public unwillingness to assess the market for what it is before they spend their money. Savage/Ruger/Howa offer better options at the low end price point and Ruger/Tikka offer better options at higher price points. There isn't a Remington model I know of that's the best combination of quality and performance at its price point. They exist because of an uninformed populace.

I chose Remington because on my budget, a left hand Remington was the best choice. Tikka offers LH rifles, but in a very limited line in the US. A friend of mine has a LH Tikka Sporter in 260, while it's a nice rifle, I'm not a fan of the laminate stock, or the caliber. I've been there done that with Savage, while I still have the rifle, the aftermarket is pretty bad, especially when looking for LH parts. Howa, new Winchester, FN, Bergara, RPR don't offer anything in lefty.

I recently bought a LH 700 CDL in 30-06. It's by far the best shooting hunting rifle I've ever owned. Consistent sub moa groups, and it doesn't start throwing shots after the barrel heats up. The jeweled bolt is plenty smooth, and so far no extraction or ejection issues. Load development has been a breeze with several different bullets from 150gr to 200gr.

I built a 6.5 Creedmoor off of a 700 SPS rifle that started out in 308. Sold the barrel, stock, and bottom metal, screwed on a Criterion Prefit Sendero profile SS barrel, Grayboe stock (converted to LH), PTG DBM, and Tubb trigger (bought used). The action has had no work done. It shoots better than I can, and over time the bolt cycling "feel" has improved quite a bit. Ejection has never been an issue, primary extraction has the common issues that LRI has pointed out, but has caused very little grief. I have $1300 in the whole rifle without optic/rings. That includes having the barrel shortened to 23", muzzle threaded, and the barreled action being Cerakoted including the bolt shroud and bolt handle. I'm 100% certain I couldn't buy a better left handed rifle with that feature set for the same price.

A 700 is an adequate rifle out if the box for hunting and general shooting. I have three 700s and a 7. That said except for the 7 they all have issues to one degree or another. Sloppy bolt fit so the firing pin strike isn't centered in the primer, scope munt holes so far of a one piece mount can't be used, firing pin hole so large any load craters the primer and to one. don't get me wrong, with load development they all shoot under 1 moa.

700s have been around long enough that they are basically the small block of actions with a huge aftermarket built up over the years. Unlike the small block they haven't really improved fit, finish or functionality over the years. Thus the clone 700 actions which fit in 700 style stocks, take aftermarket 700 triggers, scope mounts or whatever. The clones have much better tolerances.

I've built competition rifles of 700 actions in the past. Smiths work on them because they are simple to work on. But the last few competition rifles have been clones simply because aside from inspection no additional work was needed. I something was wrong I'd have sent them back to the maker, something you can't really do with a Remington for a sloppy bolt fit requiring sleeveing or mis-drilled scope mount holes.

So buy according to your intended use. You get what you pay for.

That said, Remington will continue to sell 700s for years to come.

patriot07 said:

Remington is living on their past reputation and a public unwillingness to assess the market for what it is before they spend their money. Savage/Ruger/Howa offer better options at the low end price point and Ruger/Tikka offer better options at higher price points. There isn't a Remington model I know of that's the best combination of quality and performance at its price point. They exist because of an uninformed populace.

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So youre saying the o ly reason to buy a 700 is if you dont know any better?

tgat is lierally the dumbest thing ive ever heard

how do you explain then all of the PRS, and precision shooters who shoot 700s?

certainly we know other actions exist.......or are we all "uninformed"?

My one factory 700 has been just fine for me too.

That’s not to say it shoots as well as my aftermarket barrels but it doesn’t leave me wanting anything more out of a factory tube.

mcameron said:

So youre saying the o ly reason to buy a 700 is if you dont know any better?

tgat is lierally the dumbest thing ive ever heard

how do you explain then all of the PRS, and precision shooters who shoot 700s?

certainly we know other actions exist.......or are we all "uninformed"?

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I don't know why PRS uses them. I don't know of a single instance where there isn't a better option. Low price - Ruger/Savage/Howa. Mid-price factory - Tikka/Ruger. High-price - custom. Those all offer more performance for the same money.

mcameron said:

So youre saying the o ly reason to buy a 700 is if you dont know any better?

tgat is lierally the dumbest thing ive ever heard

how do you explain then all of the PRS, and precision shooters who shoot 700s?

certainly we know other actions exist.......or are we all "uninformed"?

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The dumbest thing I ever heard was a post on here saying many gunsmiths would only work on a 700. Seriously?

Smiths around here have gotten on board the Tikka bandwagon and Remington has been left in the dust by anyone with sense.

Even if they didn't have major quality control issues and triggers that needed immediate replacement, they would still be outperformed in their price ranges. The fact that they have questionable quality and immediately need a $150 Timney just makes it even worse.

patriot07 said:

The dumbest thing I ever heard was a post on here saying many gunsmiths would only work on a 700. Seriously?

Smiths around here have gotten on board the Tikka bandwagon and Remington has been left in the dust by anyone with sense.

Even if they didn't have major quality control issues and triggers that needed immediate replacement, they would still be outperformed in their price ranges. The fact that they have questionable quality and immediately need a $150 Timney just makes it even worse.

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Ok, now lets see some proof od these QC issues.

patriot07 said:

I don't know why PRS uses them. I don't know of a single instance where there isn't a better option. Low price - Ruger/Savage/Howa. Mid-price factory - Tikka/Ruger. High-price - custom. Those all offer more performance for the same money.

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1) the QC and overall quality on sub<$600 guns sucks period.....i dont care who makes it.......all of the lower priced Savages and rugers ive seen are terribly cheaply made.

2) the only midpriced option the really competes is Tikka.......and ill admit they are a damn nice firearm for the money.

the QC on savage is not up to par of Remington, ive received 2 in the last 5 years that had improperly machined parts....one of the rifles was missing parts for the safety.

3) yes, of course a custom $1000 action is going to perform better than a $650 rifle.......i dont know anyone here who would argue it wouldnt.

i really think the QC "issues" on remingtons is FAR overblown..........yall make it sound like every rifle leaving the factory is pure garbage.........ive only seen proof on maybe 1 or 2 rifles with improperly drilled scope holes.

factory triggers suck, ill admit, but they are really only just heavy........my sub-moa .308 has a factory trigger and it shoots just fine.


just because 1 idiot posts on 14 different websites about the same problem with his gun doesnt mean there is some rash of QC issues with them.

remington makes millions of these things, if there were widespread QC issues, youd hear about it relentlessly.


although personally, i think the Winchester M70 is one of the best factory actions out there, and i really dont know why they arent more popular outside of hunting circles.

I have a Rem 700P LTR that I threw in a Grayboe Renegade stock and I've never had any issues with it. I have only been shooting precision rifles for about 2 years so I'm obviously not incredibly experienced, yet with my hand loads my 700 shoots about 3/4 MOA on average. I rarely print a group larger than 1" and if I do my part I see quite a few groups between .25-.50". It has over 1200 rounds through it now and I've never had a single malfunction or issue with it.

Obviously Savage and Tikka are bringing some nice features and price points to the market, but there's no way you can dismiss the 700 yet. Just my 2 cents.

I'd imagine the best way to use a 700 is to throw everything away but the receiver, which is what many people do. The aftermarket support is more than enough to sustain this approach IMO.
Though, I own two pre-freedom group 700's, a 1986 Mountain Rifle (wood stock) in 30-06, and a 1999 BDL Custom Deluxe in 7mm Rem Mag, and the fit and finish on those rifles is beautiful. They are so nice that it's actually sad to see some of the crap that comes out of Remington today. Though, if Remington had kept their course they might not even be here today, they had loads of debt when they were bought by Freedom Group, so obviously the market was not willing to sustain the price point at which they were making rifles in that era. In the end, the market determined that they had to reduce cost to sell rifles and make $$, which means the inevitable diminished quality that we see on the shelves today.

mcameron said:

although personally, i think the Winchester M70 is one of the best factory actions out there, and i really dont know why they arent more popular outside of hunting circles.

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Agreed. While I haven’t had a whole lot of luck with the “classic” actions, the old 1978 push feed I grew up with has never given me an issue. I decided to build it this year and am super happy with how it turned out. 3 position safety, smooth bolt, good extractor design, integral recoil lug, etc. Will let people keep thinking they’re inferior so I can pick them up for cheap.

mcameron said:

2) the only midpriced option the really competes is Tikka.......

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You need to get around more.......https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...n-6-5cm-review

He's right, ignorance is all that keeps people wedded to Remingtons today. Remington's offerings for our market are fucking laughable.

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-tactical-chassis $2900? LOLOL The Howa Chassis Rifle reviewed by Galli blows that piece of shit out of the water for $1500 less.

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-magpul $1175? LOLOL The Howa 1500 will very soon be for sale in a KRG Bravo chassis that offers a huge step up in functionality from that junky ass stock and will likely sell for less.

Lack of knowledge. Most people getting into thos sport may, possibly, read a few reviews and see that even the high end rifles are "remington patterned". They think "Hey, i can buy a 700 qvcstd and upgrade it as i go" not knowing that besides bolt on like stocks and maybe a trigger the real changes come from blueprinting and having a match barrel installed. Thats a $1000 pill. And then they go "Hey, I can just get another newer better rifle for a little more" and upgrade, often leaving tge 700 in the case/closet/safe. That what i did. Its just a lack of knowledge from being new. They dont known what they dont know.

Xander3Zero said:

I have a Rem 700P LTR that I threw in a Grayboe Renegade stock and I've never had any issues with it. I have only been shooting precision rifles for about 2 years so I'm obviously not incredibly experienced, yet with my hand loads my 700 shoots about 3/4 MOA on average. I rarely print a group larger than 1" and if I do my part I see quite a few groups between .25-.50". It has over 1200 rounds through it now and I've never had a single malfunction or issue with it.

Obviously Savage and Tikka are bringing some nice features and price points to the market, but there's no way you can dismiss the 700 yet. Just my 2 cents.

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I also have a LTR purchased in 2002 that I recently switched to a Grayboe stock. Shot two 5/16" 3 shot groups sighting it in. 2000 rounds through the gun.

Billl223 said:

I also have a LTR purchased in 2002 that I recently switched to a Grayboe stock. Shot two 5/16" 3 shot groups sighting it in. 2000 rounds through the gun.

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I do believe that the 700 Police models undergo a more stringent QC process than their standard factory rifles. Just wish it was available as left hand!

Here is 20 consecutive shots (four 5 shot groups) out of my 700 LTR with my hand loads. On the top left dot, the high flier was my cold bore impact. The dots are 1", and I believe all four of these groups measured sub 3/4 MOA.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/4t927np.jpg"}[/IMG2]

FWIW the 5R i got rid of was pretty much perfect. Gun shot 1/2 MOA with most of my reloads and last group i got out of it with 178gr BTHP was a solid .2-.3 group maybe less. Action was despite being factory extremely smooth.

The problem aforementioned is that there really isn’t anything wrong with Remington per say. There are just much better options for the money.

At the time i got mine i wanted to build a surgeon based 260. I was only 18 and Dad told me to get something cheaper see if i stuck with it. So i spent 1000$ on the 5R originally. 750+350+350 for an A5 bedded and inletted. Then 90$ for a bolt knob and thread plus 150$ or so to have it cut and threaded. Sold that barreled action for 500$...

If someone can’t afford to go custom Tikka or RPR is where it’s at honestly.

Thing did shoot though..

With so many older, quality 700s on the market...I guess I am confused as to why it matters how the new ones are.

I always threaten to buy a custom action, but when I can pick up a complete, quality 700 for under 4 bills, its hard to justify the expense for my needs. For others, their needs and wants are wholly different.

FWIW I just bought a 5R to drop in a chassis as a new shooter and the other SPS Tac I have experience with was a hell of a gun.