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THINK ABOUT IT

BANG...ping

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Minuteman
Apr 15, 2017
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So I was going to the local strip club to help send one of the girls to college. On my way I stop for gas. The amount came to $ 18.25. I handed the guy a $20 and he proceeds to go to his phone to calculate the change. I am not shitting you. This is a colossal example of laziness and dependency on electronics. So why do I bring this up?
I am new to precision shooting, but am quickly seeing that many people are dependent on rangefinders, ballistic weather meters, and phones with ballistic apps. I understand that these items make us better snipers, but also dependent ones. Take for example the latest Cabelas Optics catalog. On the rear page there is a scope that accepts data inputs from a rangefinder and automatically moves a lighted dot on the vertical crosshair up and down to compensate for holdover. They market it as a hunting product, but really? If turning an elevation knob is todifficult for you, you might want to reexamine your decision to take game. I bet the gas station guy would be giddy about this one.
Match directors and range operators go through great lengths to make stages challenging. They build rooftops, drag cars to the location for us to shoot out of, obtain drainedge pipes, build barricades, light fires (thank you Guardian). Then they hump steel all over so we are required to dial or hold. But these efforts do not force us to think as much as we should. At the beginning of a stage out come the rangefinders and ballistic calculators that give us our holds and allow us to be unthinking. I bet that if a match director banned all electronics at the beginning of a match without prior warning, scores would drop by 25 percent. Probably 50- 70 percent for the gas station precision shooter who did not have a backup range and wind card. Our sport is a craft. Electronics numb the craft.
So here is what I am thinking:
How about stages where no distance is given and no target size is given. Just your best judgement of distance with your naked eye and then work off of your splash?
How about a stage where no distance is given and no target size is given, but a common item such as a car tire or a door is placed next to the target for you to range with your reticle? And no calculators, just pen and paper to do your math ON THE CLOCK. If you knew that the average residential door is 80" your impact is coming. Watch the "I don't get my hands dirty" millennials struggle here.
Instead of round or square plate targets, how about ground hog, coyote, and deer targets? How tall does a groundhog stand? How tall is it from the ground to a coyote's back? A deers back? Many of us are hunters, but we never think of these dimensions. If we know these dimensions, ranging your game with your reticle is as easy as hitting the cat with a spitball.
I hate 1 k tripods. How about a stage where three sticks and a bungee are provided and you have to make a hasty tripod with the supplied stuff ON THE CLOCK. Fieldcraft matters. Once again, watch millennials struggle here. There is no tripod app.
OK, my beer is running low. The point of this post it to suggest ways to challenge the shooter even more. Eyeballing and estimating prop sizes will keep shooters thinking critically during stage downtime. Yes, you will need to brush up on pencil and paper math. The next time you see a 55 gallon drum, you may want to measure how tall it is. The next time you go to the out you may want to take your rangefinder to verify your guess as to how far that building is. If you can range effectively with your eye, no pencil and paper is needed. Advantage you. Do you know the formula to range with your reticle without looking it up? And just think of it, everything I am suggesting can make anyone a better shooter at little or no cost. A mid pack shooter can move way up if the guys above him spend more time with strippers than doing their homework.
I assure you that I am in no position to tell match directors how to do what they do. I could never organize a match. I am not a top level shooter. Every match I have been in I had a great time. Just food for discussion here. I just want to challenge the shooter more and see a more dynamic component to the sport. And no, there is no irony that I posted this in the EQUPMENT section. What do you think?
BTW, I just shot a match with a full size Sasquatch target. Anyone know how tall a Sasquatch is?

Bang
 
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It’s an interesting thought but, question; are you ranging that target with a $4,500 Tangent Theta sitting on top of a $10,000 Accuracy International rifle? I think it’s either “all-in” or “all-out” if you’re going back to the days when a tripod had to crafted from sticks and rawhide and wind had to be estimated by wetting your finger and sticking it in the air, then you should be using iron sights, yes? Which to me is a perfectly legitimate (there are plenty of iron sight matches) but entirely different sport.
 
Nice write up this should be a discussion for the bar where we could have nice arguments and some funny one’s to laugh at. That said technology advancement is inevitable I bet you don’t know how to use the sextant, and this was the most advanced navigational instrument in the 18th century Navigation was in many ways a leap of faith. It's just that the faith in question concerned calculations. Back to the future it safe to say getting lost is obsolete we just punch in an address and you get 100% accurate directions. But In this contest my only concern is the fun being taking away from the sport by machine or electronics. Well I still shoot my M14 iron sight 200yards out and I’m happy with that.
 
It’s an interesting thought but, question; are you ranging that target with a $4,500 Tangent Theta sitting on top of a $10,000 Accuracy International rifle? I think it’s either “all-in” or “all-out” if you’re going back to the days when a tripod had to crafted from sticks and rawhide and wind had to be estimated by wetting your finger and sticking it in the air, then you should be using iron sights, yes? Which to me is a perfectly legitimate (there are plenty of iron sight matches) but entirely different sport.

I respectfully disagree expensive doesn’t always mean better I can argue that a Rem 700 topped with a NF Actar will achieve same result or better than the A.I rifle with TT scope sometimes price reflect luxury
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I go to a strip bar, hold over has a completely different meaning.

I think the real key in shooting in general is to use all of the tools at your disposal, including intuition. I'm not at all ashamed to use ballistics calculators, LRFs, wind meters, etc. But I do take the time to think about how the senses correlate with the digital data.
 
So I was going to the local strip club to help send one of the girls to college. On my way I stop for gas. The amount came to $ 18.25. I handed the guy a $20 and he proceeds to go to his phone to calculate the change. I am not shitting you. This is a colossal example of laziness and dependency on electronics. So why do I bring this up?
I am new to precision shooting, but am quickly seeing that many people are dependent on rangefinders, ballistic weather meters, and phones with ballistic apps. I understand that these items make us better snipers, but also dependent ones. Take for example the latest Cabelas Optics catalog. On the rear page there is a scope that accepts data inputs from a rangefinder and automatically moves a lighted dot on the vertical crosshair up and down to compensate for holdover. They market it as a hunting product, but really? If turning an elevation knob is todifficult for you, you might want to reexamine your decision to take game. I bet the gas station guy would be giddy about this one.
Match directors and range operators go through great lengths to make stages challenging. They build rooftops, drag cars to the location for us to shoot out of, obtain drainedge pipes, build barricades, light fires (thank you Guardian). Then they hump steel all over so we are required to dial or hold. But these efforts do not force us to think as much as we should. At the beginning of a stage out come the rangefinders and ballistic calculators that give us our holds and allow us to be unthinking. I bet that if a match director banned all electronics at the beginning of a match without prior warning, scores would drop by 25 percent. Probably 50- 70 percent for the gas station precision shooter who did not have a backup range and wind card. Our sport is a craft. Electronics numb the craft.
So here is what I am thinking:
How about stages where no distance is given and no target size is given. Just your best judgement of distance with your naked eye and then work off of your splash?
How about a stage where no distance is given and no target size is given, but a common item such as a car tire or a door is placed next to the target for you to range with your reticle? And no calculators, just pen and paper to do your math ON THE CLOCK. If you knew that the average residential door is 80" your impact is coming. Watch the "I don't get my hands dirty" millennials struggle here.
Instead of round or square plate targets, how about ground hog, coyote, and deer targets? How tall does a groundhog stand? How tall is it from the ground to a coyote's back? A deers back? Many of us are hunters, but we never think of these dimensions. If we know these dimensions, ranging your game with your reticle is as easy as hitting the cat with a spitball.
I hate 1 k tripods. How about a stage where three sticks and a bungee are provided and you have to make a hasty tripod with the supplied stuff ON THE CLOCK. Fieldcraft matters. Once again, watch millennials struggle here. There is no tripod app.
OK, my beer is running low. The point of this post it to suggest ways to challenge the shooter even more. Eyeballing and estimating prop sizes will keep shooters thinking critically during stage downtime. Yes, you will need to brush up on pencil and paper math. The next time you see a 55 gallon drum, you may want to measure how tall it is. The next time you go to the out you may want to take your rangefinder to verify your guess as to how far that building is. If you can range effectively with your eye, no pencil and paper is needed. Advantage you. Do you know the formula to range with your reticle without looking it up? And just think of it, everything I am suggesting can make anyone a better shooter at little or no cost. A mid pack shooter can move way up if the guys above him spend more time with strippers than doing their homework.
I assure you that I am in no position to tell match directors how to do what they do. I could never organize a match. I am not a top level shooter. Every match I have been in I had a great time. Just food for discussion here. I just want to challenge the shooter more and see a more dynamic component to the sport. And no, there is no irony that I posted this in the EQUPMENT section. What do you think?
BTW, I just shot a match with a full size Sasquatch target. Anyone know how tall a Sasquatch is?

Bang


Kidding with you aside....

Yes the ability to use iron sights, kentucky windage and read conditions is being lost.

I am sad that service rifle and even boot camps have gone all optic.

....but its progress.

Electronics and scopes will be forced to higher standards of construction to prevent failure as they become more critical. Grossly I could see the day that the scope will be integral to the weapon so as to house it in a more durable construction. The sad part is the loss of choice, you get what the manufacturer supplies but if market dictates it should be pretty substantial and will include your wind meter, weather station and all other data derived from individual devices in one heads up display. Im guessing it will also access an onboard data file that recognizes the dimensions of a stop sign and based on the laser range finder distance measure will immediately dope the firearm.

Its coming and just like we dont shoot the high end technology of the 18th Century, Pennsylvania long rifles, we will move on from what we currently have.
 
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I respectfully disagree expensive doesn’t always mean better I can argue that a Rem 700 topped with a NF Actar will achieve same result or better than the A.I rifle with TT scope sometimes price reflect luxury

I agree with you completely. All I was commenting on was what technology we allow into the sport versus technology that erodes the integrity of it. For example; if I had a computer attached to my rifle that ranged the target, calculated the shot and pulled the trigger for me, that would be pretty impressive but not a whole lot of fun I think.

What I think the OP was getting at is whether it is okay to use a ballistics calculator or should we be doing the calculations by hand? A wind meter or throw some grass in the air? A carbon fiber tripod or sticks and bungee cord? What it made me wonder is what technology you are eschewing (wind meters, range meters, etc.) versus what technology you are embracing (rifle, glass, etc.)?
 
well i have a good guess which match you just shot

you should go shoot competition dynamics or mammoth or something of that nature if you want UKD targets...not PRS
 
look at it like you do racing...

all the new tech thats going into shooting is like all the new tech going into F1.....youve got GPS linked traction control, high tech aero, preprogrammed turbo spool......hell the cars can practically drive them selves.....

compare that to go carts, which are a motor strapped to a piece of plywood........this is like shooting with Iron sights.


now if you take someone who is great at driving a go-cart....and put them behind an F1 car....they are going to be amazing (see Lewis hamilton)

if you have solid fundamentals, and know what you are doing without Technology....adding that tech only makes good shooters better.

now if you have no idea what you are doing, and hop behind the wheel of a F1 car......you are going to crash every race( see "Crash-tor" Maldonado)

if you have shit fundamentals, and dive right in relying on technology to make you a good shooter.......youre gonna suck.




this is just like those threads of people who hunt with an AR15.....and then getting shit on by "real hunters" who only hunt with a long bow......
 
The essence of the argument is, "What makes a marksman?". Some people use the technology to inform thier brain. When that tech is taken away, the info remains. If you never really learn something because you don't need to, and rely on the magic box for the answer, you are not becoming a marksman.

You are a trigger monkey and the magic box is the organ grinder.
 
Why the angst against millenials in the post? Are they your goto boogeymen?

Shits expensive yo and I don't want to just throw my time-and-money intensive ammo down range at targets. The goal of one round one hit becomes easier with rangefinders and ballistic calculators. Time is not on our side (whether in sport or life) so the sooner I can get it done the faster I can move onto the next thing.

That being said the "no technology, no information on target" stage or one-off match would be pretty cool.
 
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The Kettle Falls Steel Challenge

Each stage requires reticle ranging of the first target. Once both shooters have finished engaging the UKD target, they are free to use their LRFs.



Wait wait wait...you can pump your own gas?!
 
Over on this side of the pond, there has been more than a few shooting competitions and competition forms that regularly falls under your thoughts on the subject.

A few years ago, there was a stage at a comp where you were to mill a regular door (from a house), standing in the middle of a huge field. If you knew the standard measurement you could get real close. The real distance was about 1080 meters or so.
In field shooting here in Scandinavia the only electronics allowed are a windmeter, nothing else. Its all unknown distances and you have 2 minutes on each stage to mill the target with your reticle and figure shit out. How the guys with a diopter does this, is still beyond my comprehension.
Last year Mr. Spuhr himself was partly in charge of a mini PRS competition with an awesome rule: You could have 4 bipods, 2 tripods, 18 different shooting bags and what not, but you had to carry everything yourself, for the entire competition, and if you left anything on the ground when the "seize fire" comand was given, those things would be taken away from you by the RO.
See, to me and a lot of other shooters PRS has quickly become ridicoules with the amount of gear that is concidered essential to it. In that comp people were loosing bag after bag and what not. One guy in our squad had to leave his backpack on the second stage. In it were all his ammo, which he was cleared to take, but now he had to carry it with him, in what gear he had left. Which meant he was dragging around some 150 rounds of 6,5x55 swede in every pocket of his jacket and pants. He walked around sounding like a huge maracas, and I bet it was anything but practical.
Whenever I watch matchphotos and films from the U.S. I am often surprised when people are toting around laser range finders. It takes away atleast some of the skill involved, if you ask me.
 
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Interesting that we have all the whizzbang know it all best that money can afford. Most of the best trained boots on this rock, yet we have been fighting cavemen with a cheap ass AK or SVD how long now?
None of what you insinuate is due to the skill at arms or mastery of the fundamentals of our fighting men.

There's this little thing called rules of engagement, you know............take the dog off the leash and watch the right people die by the truckload.
 
we've had some guys comment on gear allowed (# of bags/tripods/etc) and stage setups (UKD, instead of yardage given) for some of our local matches...my usual reply is

"you cant hit 70% of the shots with all the gear and aids available now...i dont want to sit here and watch you hit dirt all day" lol

i do like the idea of milling a common object near a target in order to engage it though...im going to try and figure a way to set something like this up at our next match
 
From a different perspective, I’ll add that yea one stage or a one off match like this does sound fun, or at least interesting, but at the end of the day a lot of us just do this for fun. And honestly, part of the fun for a lot of people is using all the gear and latest tech they’ve acquired. I want to go to a match and check out a terrapin x because I’m considering getting one. I’d love to see it compared real world to something right in front of me. I like seeing the different tripods at matches. So while I think the field stuff seems awesome, and a good way to retain some of the fundamentals being looked over, I think there’s a decent amount of guys who would skip past all that and not think it very fun.
 
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Ide like to see a comp where shooters have to chug a beer between stages and do a penalty shot for each miss.

HA! This is why I like to shoot by myself. I guess its also why I drink by my myself...

tenor.gif
 
I suck at ranging and wind calls so it takes a few shots for me to get on target at 1,000 yards on the 1-2 range trips I do in a year.

If I could practice more I would pick up a lot of those skills.

Even though I'm not good enough to really take advantage of the technology, I still want it.

I see the other side too so I'm trying to create a modular and organized setup so I can grab an appropriate load out depending on what and where I'm shooting.

Eventually the idea will be to shoot more, learn to quickly gather dope, range with my scope and be able to put it all together on the fly.

I'm pretty far from there.
 
Every hobby will have different subsections of ppl. The old school guys, the new school guys, etc. Leave it be... you’re not going to change anyone’s mind here.

You say you hate 1k tripods but competition shooting with tripods have leaked into real world military use so if it’s good enough for them...

I assume you just shot the New England PRS match in NH since they had a life size Sasquatch target. I was there and if that’s your thing, you should look into signing up for the Allegheny Sniper Challenge in Seneca Rocks, WV. Well, try to get in I should say. That match has all the things you’re looking for (I shot it this past spring).

Or, look into PPRC on the PRS calendar coming up this September. Long par times with ranging and target acquisition on the clock. I’ll be there. The types of matches that you seem to like are out there, you just have to look.
 
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Ide like to see a comp where shooters have to chug a beer between stages and do a penalty shot for each miss.
from what ive heard from some of the brits....thats exactly how the National matches at Bisley are run....
 
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Interesting that we have all the whizzbang know it all best that money can afford. Most of the best trained boots on this rock, yet we have been fighting cavemen with a cheap ass AK or SVD how long now?

Are you "criticizing" the "cash cow/squirrel cage" ?.......Remember, someone's makin' some serious coin on it. They don't take kindly to being questioned or exposed. ;)
 
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Are you "criticizing" the "cash cow/squirrel cage" ?.......Remember, someone's makin' some serious coin on it. They don't take kindly to being questioned or exposed. ;)
That is what it's all about M O N E Y. They don't give a shit about anything or anybody.
The laughter part will come when a real war breaks out an all the whizzbang shit is rendered useless. There is a counter for everything an most of the time it's very simple. We fought a equal once, an only a truce stopped the large scale direct fighting. We have not won shit past 8/45 an that is by design.
 
So there was a post above about F1 racing. I used to follow F1 closely and have been to a few races in Montreal. I also raced sailboats for years, a Beneteau 36.7, a Beneteau 40.7, and a J 40. One thing that is clear is that most F1 drivers and world class yactht racers started small. F1 on karts, and the sailing guys on tiny Lasers. No electronics. On a Laser you can feel the smallest shift in the wind on the tiller, not so on a 40 footer. When racing a 40 footer, especially at night, you mostly stay glued to the screen to watch for wind shifts. Take for example, I was racing at night off the coast of Long Island in heavy wind (a rarity in the summer). The navigator, and ex Laser racer, called wind shifts at night by watching the mast lights bend over in front of us and count the seconds until the puffs hit. Hard puffs are bad because they cause the boat to heel excessively and slow down significantly if you do not blow the main. A 40 foot boat weights about 18,000 pounds. Top speed is about 7 knots upwind. If you stop in the water, it can take up to two minutes to get back up to speed. That is when you watch competitors pull away. No electronics anywhere can make those calls. Only skilled crew who are sharp. Don’t even need Binos. A simple skill that pays big. The point of my post was to get away from dependency on electronics. Be craftsmen. Think on your feet. Think critically. Evaluate your surroundings with your eyes. Be creative and use available items such as sticks and string build a support. I suspect a match would be more enjoyable if shooters estimate yardage by eye and get it right. Or Mil targets quickly and get it right. There is reward for all skills well executed. We do this sport because it is hard, right? Read Shackleton and Mutiny on the Bounty. Amazing feats of skill with only a Sextant and a wind up watch. I’m sure if they had GPS they would have used it, until the batteries died. What do you think?
Bang
 
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"you cant hit 70% of the shots with all the gear and aids available now...i dont want to sit here and watch you hit dirt all day" lol

Love it. :)


I personally don't care much for the prepper mentality of "Whatcha gonna do when your fancy whiz-bang whatever doesn't work and the end of the world comes and you have to mil your target with only a loincloth and facepaint on?".... at least in the context of shooting competitions. Sure, old school pre-tech skills and knowledge of basics are good but at the end of the day it's a shooting competition. Best trigger pullers are going to win, whether you take gear away or make them do long hand math or stick them in a loincloth and facepaint.

I want matches to be first and foremost a shooting competion. Not a hiking competition or a milling competition or a "hunt for the target betcha can't find it" competition. Sure, give me creative problems that require thinking on your feet, give me the unexpected, challenge me. But at the end of the day it's about shooting and unless you're in the USASOC or ISC or an operator in the real world, the rest of the "tactical" stuff is just a distraction.
 
Nice rant, and I agree that we need to be marksmen rather than trigger pullers.

I kinda get a sense that your ideolagy is based off a limiting factor of an erra. I think we need to be equipped with the skill set to pull the one shot off when the time comes whether out equipment fails or not it's still our job to make an ethical kill. As a hunter it has importance to me but I can see even greater importance in the Mil/LE world.

We dont live in an erra where range finders are limited to short range or inaccurate or unreliable. We dont have crappy equipment that they did back in the day. So which erra would you like to limit shooters to? If a sniper is willing to put his life and those of his men behind his equipment I dont see why me as a hunter can't put my hunt on the line because of mine. This being said I dont have Military grade equipment by any means.

However I'm not saying that we ditch the fine arts of marksmanship and I dont think it's a bad idea to challenge those skills. But I dont think you need to limit everyone to a erra. The balance between technology, knowledge, instinct and marksmanship has shifted but change isn't always bad. But not all of us are Carlos Hathcocks and I dont think we all need to be using duplex scopes. So where do we draw the line? I depend on dependable equipment (where I can afford it) but if it fails then that's my problem.

Now if you suggested erra based matches I think that could catch on.... i mean look at the vintage sniper rifles section. talk about nostalgia!! Even if it was a SHTF match where all batteries were dead and the Russians invade.... I digress.... But what I'm getting at is that these are realities that aren't fragile and give us amazing abilities as long range shooters. Enjoy them for what they are worth!

Ok my rant is done.
 
Op,

I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you, but very few people enjoy milling. Or eyeballing range, or missing a lot, which is what would happen if they were milling or estimating. Estimating doesnt get you many first round hits. Competitors compete because they find it enjoyable. Period. Missing is not enjoyable.
 
Don't forget about the caliber race that would still occur. If matches required "eyeballing only" stages, it'd be much easier to run a 6.5PRC necked down to 6mm, shooting 110 SMKs at 3200fps. That would be about 3 full MILs flatter at 800 yards than a 308 shooting a 175 SMK at 2650 fps.

Might as well just make it all 308s with 175 SMKs only, with 3-12x scopes with Mil-dots only. That would surely bring out a crowd that wouldn't have any of those pesky millennials you keep complaining about :ROFLMAO:
 
Sounds like in the pistol world where you have idpa and uspsa. seems like what some are calling for is an idpa type league that limits the tech
 
The PRS and NRL are businesses, as are the clubs that run small matches.

Want to know the way to have your series shut down due to lack of money? Take away the "whizz bangs". Lots of guys don't need to win, they are out there to have a good time. Having a good time means hitting some steel and getting a few points.

It was alluded to up above but most shooters don't hit much anyways (if match has a ~60% hit percentage average I would say that is a well designed match - others shoot for 50%). If you took away wind meters and other doo dads I could see those scores dropping huge. If people don't makes hits they don't have fun and they leave and then your series/league/club dies.

I sit at an office all day and shoot guns for fun. If I had to fight for my life in a loin clothe I wouldn't last long even if I had my wind meter/LRF/ballistics calculator. My skinny ass would make it till October before I froze to death let alone be overrun by shooters who are good kentucky windage and milling.
 
Maybe a good compromise would be to have a couple of stages or side stages that fit the criteria the OP is talking about. Maybe separate prizes for the winners of those stages.
 
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Hi,

Well first thing that comes to my mind is that IF you made it to the strip club and you still typed that long ass post..well you might be at wrong gender strip club.

But back to the serious portion of your post...Sasquatch is 7'4.6952"

Sincerely,
Theis
How many mils is that??
 
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:D:D:D

Yeah, loincloths and Alberta winters weren't meant to go together.

Ha sounds like you know the truth, I was plumping a framed house outside of Edmonton when it was -59°C a few years back and I only lasted about 3 hours....

We aren't shooting matches in loin cloths now are we?
 
Ha sounds like you know the truth, I was plumping a framed house outside of Edmonton when it was -59°C a few years back and I only lasted about 3 hours....

We aren't shooting matches in loin cloths now are we?
Just cause you aren't doesn't mean we don't
 
Ha sounds like you know the truth, I was plumping a framed house outside of Edmonton when it was -59°C a few years back and I only lasted about 3 hours....

We aren't shooting matches in loin cloths now are we?

Not sure what “plumping” a house means, but if you were outside for 3 hours in -59C weather (equal to -74F), then you must be able to survive in normal winter weather for weeks in a loincloth. Pretty sure at -74F any exposed skin is frost bitten in about 2 minutes...