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May have had that backwards, as I live in colorado now and my mind sometimes gets stuck between the two. Likely -59°F but yes plumping is like plumbing but better.
Why don't you just shoot some 3D archery match's.
Don’t compete but I can tell you that an average coyote in AZ is about 22” and a Wiley mofuger? Point taken that the bio core processor is the most important tool of all and should be challenged. Even us dumb hunters know that?
I indented in my draft, but for some reason when I posted, it removed the indents.
It was a full service station but I pumped the gas because the guy was taking too long with others.
Yes sir, but did you mean to say that when the info is taken away, the info does NOT remain?
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No, I was contrasting the two different ways to use the same tech. You can use your solver to run firing scenarios and look for the trends, changes per 20 degrees of temp, changes per 1 inch of pressure, the effect of BC at the same speed, the effect of speed at the same BC, the effects of slope etc...
If you use your tech to actually learn this stuff, it doesn't matter if the tech is taken away. If you just punch in numbers and take the resultant solution and dial it and fire, what have you learned about anything?
have you ran any matches? because based on match attendance and shooter feedback in my region, and others...SLG isnt wrong
there are way more casual shooters out to have a good time than there are "serious tactical marksmen" lookin to have their dicks kicked in
Ok, good luck. Im sure all three of you will podium then! ?
I am not a NRL/PRS match director but run club matches in your neighbour to the north.
The first big match I ran I had a hit percentage average in the 20-30% range. Based on feedback people had fun because they were out shooting for a day. I adjusted the COF for the next match and the hit percentage average went into the 50-60% range - people had a lot more fun. @morganlamprecht & @SLG are correct.
If you think there is a need for this type of match talk to your local club and run one. Maybe we are all wrong but I have run close to 10 matches now. Between the time pressure, barricades, winds, etc. I don't think shooters want more of a challenge. Maybe if it was an all prone match with 5+ minute stages and unlimited rd counts it would work but that is dumb.
A single milling stage in a match is fine but a whole match like that would not be many shooters cups of tea.
Maybe that is one way to think of it. I am a shooter, I am not an operator/sniper, I don't need to know how to mil as my life does not depend on it.
The first big match I ran I had a hit percentage average in the 20-30% range. Based on feedback people had fun because they were out shooting for a day. I adjusted the COF for the next match and the hit percentage average went into the 50-60% range - people had a lot more fun. @morganlamprecht & @SLG are correct.
If you think there is a need for this type of match talk to your local club and run one. Maybe we are all wrong but I have run close to 10 matches now. Between the time pressure, barricades, winds, etc. I don't think shooters want more of a challenge. Maybe if it was an all prone match with 5+ minute stages and unlimited rd counts it would work but that is dumb.
A single milling stage in a match is fine but a whole match like that would not be many shooters cups of tea.
Maybe that is one way to think of it. I am a shooter, I am not an operator/sniper, I don't need to know how to mil as my life does not depend on it.
It
I drove from Manhattan to Eurooptic in PA to purchase a rifle (4 hr drive) and stayed in PA overnight. I then gassed up that night so after I went to Eurooptic in the morning , I could drive straight back without stopping for gas. Think about it.
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PRS started out as a type of practical rifle competition. It is anything but practical now. All the "tactical" skills that no one wants any part of, were originally the whole point.
Now it is IPSC/USPSA with rifles. It's 3 gun without the other two guns. It's kinda sad. Like I said before, it would be a pretty good compromise to have a handful of stages that were non-electronic.
Now it is IPSC/USPSA with rifles. It's 3 gun without the other two guns. It's kinda sad. Like I said before, it would be a pretty good compromise to have a handful of stages that were non-electronic.
My current desire is to get myself on this range.....
On the wall of the shoot house behind the line there is a map detailing yardage to each torso but I have no desire to view it.
There are 20 plates out to 1000 plus yards.
My goal would be twenty rounds, twenty hits, all milled.
I wake up some nights and have to change sheets and shorts because I dream about such a challenge.
Not sure why people think PRS is no longer practical.
You are presented with a problem (barricades/props/natural terrain/various distances) and a set amount of time to solve the problem. Yes the obstacles are maybe not real world sometimes but it is still working on the shooters problem solving abilities.
If you don't like the game, don't play it and start your own.
Many shooters who have attended my matches mention that PRS/NRL style comps have improved their hunting ability. Maybe it is just a better ability to operate under stress, maybe it is their ability to handle various situations, but that is their experience.
There is something to be learned from many disciplines, PRS is not the end all and be all but it is a teacher if you want it to be.
You are presented with a problem (barricades/props/natural terrain/various distances) and a set amount of time to solve the problem. Yes the obstacles are maybe not real world sometimes but it is still working on the shooters problem solving abilities.
If you don't like the game, don't play it and start your own.
Many shooters who have attended my matches mention that PRS/NRL style comps have improved their hunting ability. Maybe it is just a better ability to operate under stress, maybe it is their ability to handle various situations, but that is their experience.
There is something to be learned from many disciplines, PRS is not the end all and be all but it is a teacher if you want it to be.
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How about decreasing round count, making the targets smaller, putting them out further, and increasing par time just a bit. While we are at it, how about limiting rifle weight to 14lbs, and shooters to one bag? How about putting a little more "precision" back into the Precision Rifle Series?
@Skookum what is the goal of doing these things?
Change the gear, the current crop of top shooters will still win. Make the targets smaller, the top shooters will still win. Reduce the gear, the top shooters will still win. Change one of many things and the results will be the same. Top shooters send a lot of rounds down range and are good shooters/trigger pullers what have you.
Are you currently a top PRS competitor? Do you find the current competitions too easy and want to make them harder? Are you secretly Matt Brosseau or Jake Vibbert or Jon Pynch?
Change the gear, the current crop of top shooters will still win. Make the targets smaller, the top shooters will still win. Reduce the gear, the top shooters will still win. Change one of many things and the results will be the same. Top shooters send a lot of rounds down range and are good shooters/trigger pullers what have you.
Are you currently a top PRS competitor? Do you find the current competitions too easy and want to make them harder? Are you secretly Matt Brosseau or Jake Vibbert or Jon Pynch?
This has been a very civil discussion, which is nice to see.
I think it is important to remember that everyone has their own version of what they would like to see in a competition. If the current offerings dont appeal I encourage you to create your own version. If it is well liked, it will be used by others.
I helped create a pistol sport a number of years ago, because a friend and I were frustrated by the current sports. It was tremendously educational to do so, and the resulting rule book (really pretty short), made for matches that we enjoyed very much.
I had, and have, no interest in running matches or pushing my interests on others, so the sport has mostly languished. My co creator was running them for many years, with pretty good turnout, but he is no longer able to do so.
So, make a new sport, see how it does. If nothing else, you will learn alot.
I think it is important to remember that everyone has their own version of what they would like to see in a competition. If the current offerings dont appeal I encourage you to create your own version. If it is well liked, it will be used by others.
I helped create a pistol sport a number of years ago, because a friend and I were frustrated by the current sports. It was tremendously educational to do so, and the resulting rule book (really pretty short), made for matches that we enjoyed very much.
I had, and have, no interest in running matches or pushing my interests on others, so the sport has mostly languished. My co creator was running them for many years, with pretty good turnout, but he is no longer able to do so.
So, make a new sport, see how it does. If nothing else, you will learn alot.
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No sir, I am not. Right now, I am a non-competitor. My goal is to join the series this year. My opinions come from the fact that I am a purist in most things. It is just my nature. I do not expect anyone to take my opinions to heart or to even agree with me. I present them only as a counterargument to the current trend.
Good shooting.
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Are any of those guys in the real world tactical scenarios shooting 12 round engagements with a 6 creed in an 18lb rifle? Are the targets 2moa or larger? Do the targets stand still?
Look, I'm really not trying to be contrary. PRS is a GOOD thing. I just think that if it keeps going the way it's going, it will "jump the shark" soon. I would rather see it stay around.
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I shoot PRS with a wide subset of people, everyone from legit operators to desk jockey weekend warriors. Not sure who a “serious tactical marksman” is, but I can say all the people I know like a well run match with a good hit percentage, not some crazy difficult suffering fest.
Not pointing fingers at you, but my observation of others has been that often the guys who don’t place well in competition will gravitate towards the “this sport is dumb” argument and advocate something more manly and tactical. Problem is that the guys who win the “gamer” sport are the same guys who win the tough field matches.
We have a lot of options for both in our neck of the woods, but the PRS style matches are much more well attended.
You'll have to ask them
Let me then give you some advice based on my own experience: humble yourself and save your input for after you've actually competed in a few.
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So dissenting opinions are only allowed from within? If that were the rule, then 99% of the hide would have zero right to input on LEO issues. That isn't what I've seen so far.
Has anyone in this thread heard of the Practical Rifle Jackpot Series?
nah, it was a bunch of guys from north tx/OK who wanted to see who the best field shooter was and shot mostly prone
I hadnt, anything other than this facebook group? https://www.facebook.com/groups/281501535681367//
The general overview for it is below....i highlighted some of the rules that have to do with things discussed here like gear/rifle restrictions, and "impractical" scenarios...
it was started up this year by Rich (who also started the PRS) because he didnt like the way the PRS was going, getting into more positional/high speed/larger targets/etc (much of what is being complained about here)
as far as i know theyve had 2 or 3 matches this year, and i think they are getting about 10 TOTAL people to them...they put this together as a series to be opposite of PRS, for all the more "practical" shooters complaing about the direction of PRS style matches....it was started up in March and sent out to a bunch of shooters to get things kicked off, and no one is showing up...go figure
Practical Rifle Jackpot Series
Concept / Goals: To incorporate 6-10 matches wherever possible near the Mid-Central US (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska etc.) into field style/ practical hunting competition style format. Primarily prone and natural terrain engagements, that test the shooter to make real world/ practical hunting shots.
Format:-No Memberships, Not a points race however, competitors who earn a top 50% divisional finish earn a spot to the Finale Match.
(Finale Match will feature cash payback, trophy buckles and sponsor supported prize table)
Jackpot Series-Each Jackpot Match will be hosted by Match Directors who are willing and capable to host such events that offer:
it was started up this year by Rich (who also started the PRS) because he didnt like the way the PRS was going, getting into more positional/high speed/larger targets/etc (much of what is being complained about here)
as far as i know theyve had 2 or 3 matches this year, and i think they are getting about 10 TOTAL people to them...they put this together as a series to be opposite of PRS, for all the more "practical" shooters complaing about the direction of PRS style matches....it was started up in March and sent out to a bunch of shooters to get things kicked off, and no one is showing up...go figure
Practical Rifle Jackpot Series
Concept / Goals: To incorporate 6-10 matches wherever possible near the Mid-Central US (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska etc.) into field style/ practical hunting competition style format. Primarily prone and natural terrain engagements, that test the shooter to make real world/ practical hunting shots.
Format:-No Memberships, Not a points race however, competitors who earn a top 50% divisional finish earn a spot to the Finale Match.
(Finale Match will feature cash payback, trophy buckles and sponsor supported prize table)
Jackpot Series-Each Jackpot Match will be hosted by Match Directors who are willing and capable to host such events that offer:
- A true field style match! Steel target engagements.
- Matches can be 2 man team matches or individual matches.
- Every target engagement is scored @1pt. (upon final scoring any Ties will be broke by a 500 yd closest to center shot)
- $200(one day) or $250 (1-½ day) Entry Fee and 70% cash pay back to the Top 5 (39 shooters or less) or Top 10 (40+shooters) and 20% to the Match Director and 10% to Finale Match (Added Cash)
- 1 or 1-½ day event capable of engaging up to 75 shots per competitor but no more than 150 rounds total.
- No Artificial barricades etc. (natural terrain or real world engagements only- elevated shooting positions (tower’s etc.) ok)
- Match Directors must supply any shooting sticks to be used and only they are to be used.
- Targets should be easily seen or marked
- Light Hunter Division- any rifle/scope combination with weight less than 12.5 lbs (suppressor, mags, bipods, bags and other gear not counted against total weight)
- Heavy Hunter- anything over 12.5 lbs and 7.62mm or less.
- No Speed limit- MD determined, otherwise you break it you buy it policy.
- Guaranteed payout for top Light Rifle.
- Only 1 bag and/or backpack can used for rear support, nothing else.
- Shooters should wear proper attire-Not custom screen printed Jerseys.
- If any 1 shooter wins 2 Jackpots or $7,500 in the Same Division, he can no longer compete for cash in that Division.
- Competitor Shooters may choose to help anyone get on target, and encouraged to help new or struggling shooters throughout the stage.
Opinions are allowed from anywhere.
But more weight is given to opinions that have a basis on experience.
Does that make sense?
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Fair enough.
10-4. Now I am picking up what you are putting down.
That sounds awesome. Any matches within a half day's driving distance of North Dakota?
facebook says there's an event planned in Stockville, nebraska sept 15-16...Bighorn Arms Shootout @ Rattlesnake Ridge...so far 2 people have said they were going on the FB event page
That’s a pretty good clue about what people want.
yup, the ones doing all the complaining are the vocal minority and sitting on the sidelines
I have shot a few matches, while i have enjoyed every match, i definitely prefer the slower pace stages with targets that require more precision. After all this is precision rifle shooting...
I also try to keep my equipment to a minimum. An average size backpack, a rifle and a rear bag that works well on obstacles is all i carry. It is an added challenge i have brought on myself. I have no interest in carrying a 100lb pack with 6 bags and a tripod hanging off from it. Maybe i am at a disadvantage but i dont feel that it holds me back.
In my opinion many of stages that i have shot are taking away from the fundamentals of marksmanship. Slapping the trigger to get all your rounds off in the allowed time is the norm. It looks to me that prs style shooting is turning into 3gun. 3 gun is a fine sport but it is not precision rifle shooting.
With all of that said. I do not run matches so i will shoot the COF that is offered to me and have a good time. After all match directors put in all the work so i will let them decide on the style of match they want to run.
I also try to keep my equipment to a minimum. An average size backpack, a rifle and a rear bag that works well on obstacles is all i carry. It is an added challenge i have brought on myself. I have no interest in carrying a 100lb pack with 6 bags and a tripod hanging off from it. Maybe i am at a disadvantage but i dont feel that it holds me back.
In my opinion many of stages that i have shot are taking away from the fundamentals of marksmanship. Slapping the trigger to get all your rounds off in the allowed time is the norm. It looks to me that prs style shooting is turning into 3gun. 3 gun is a fine sport but it is not precision rifle shooting.
With all of that said. I do not run matches so i will shoot the COF that is offered to me and have a good time. After all match directors put in all the work so i will let them decide on the style of match they want to run.
I personally prefer simpler low pressure matches for the fun of playing with your equipment.
I haven't been able to do it for some years, but I really liked the modified benchrest matches TacPro puts on each year.
Shoot whatever you want up to .338 and as long as it's not a rail gun / return to battery gun you are good.
Shoot from the dirt, or the bench or wench your own custom shooting bench to the line.
10 shots per round, 10 minutes, small to tiny targets.
Spend the rest of the time hanging out and chatting with everybody and discussing how crazy the wind is that day.
I haven't been able to do it for some years, but I really liked the modified benchrest matches TacPro puts on each year.
Shoot whatever you want up to .338 and as long as it's not a rail gun / return to battery gun you are good.
Shoot from the dirt, or the bench or wench your own custom shooting bench to the line.
10 shots per round, 10 minutes, small to tiny targets.
Spend the rest of the time hanging out and chatting with everybody and discussing how crazy the wind is that day.
Only shot three matches and really only one since the PRS has officially been created. Both sides of the argument have merit, but it is the Precision Rifle Series, not the Practical Rifle Series or the Traditionalist Rifle Series. The point is to shoot with precision while overcoming obstacles not prepare for selection or pass Q. Though it is fun to have a stage or two with gear restrictions to keep your bean engaged and to remember to appreciate your equipment.
IMO that is
IMO that is
I've just started long range precision shooting this summer. Haven't even competed in a match yet. From my perspective, I like the idea of being able to acquire new gear that is going to help me increase my hit percentage, but I don't want things to be too easy. I'm not looking to be some super hardcore 'tactical operator', I'm looking to have fun learning a new skill. I realize that there are all kinds of people out there who have different reasons for getting into the sport. I think it would be great to get into a match someday and be able to run through a stage with equipment restrictions where I have to challenge myself and be confident in my ability to make hits with minimal technological help. But if every stage was so restrictive, requiring me to mil every target under time or eyeball range at a guess to the point where I would barely hit a thing, well then I wouldn't have any interest in the slightest in competing. For every serious tactical marksman out there shooting there is a weekend warrior who is just out to have fun.
