What are your thoughts about NRL22 class delineation?

NRL22 doesn't really have that much gear requirement, there's no Tripods, there's no real fancy other attachments that are necessary. And the cost of a 22 is a lot, lot cheaper than a custom built PRS rig. Yes there are $3000 V22's, but you don't need one to be competitive. There's no recoil so you're not hand loading custom 6* rigs , etc etc.

Your statement about pro, semi pro, amateur etc I think is valid, it's just a lot of overhead on how you track those things for such a small organization. I also think they give quite a bit of leeway on Base class.. $1050 for a 22 you can get a decent stock rifle and it'll shoot, and then a $500 scope which there are a ton of these days. You can modify triggers and barrels, just not chassis, so you have a lot of play if you wanted to upgrade.

The size of target is also pretty big, so you really don't have the rifle to blame for missing shots either. 1/4" at 25 yards, yes that's 1moa, but you can miss by .22 on each side, so really you're needing to hit a 2/3" target at 25 yards...

To me the beauty of a PRS match ( centerfire or rimfire) is I get to shoot with everyone. I get to watch them and learn. If you want to win, practice more. That shooter with the $8000 rig could beat you (and me) with your gun.

I have watched this class delineation kill more shooting sports over the years than you can imagine. No one is ever satisfied regardless of how the rules are changed. Leave it alone and shoot. This is a sport not, " I WIN ".

Get out there and shoot have fun. if you don't shoot as well as the other guy so what, you are just competing with yourself to start with. Did you do better this match or not. If not why not? Then solve the problem.

Get off the band wagon of all the other followers and complainers. Get involved with the better shooters and find out what they are using. Is your posture correct? Are you using the bags correctly? Are you checking your pulse rate? Most importantly where is your concentration level. Talk with them they will help you.

Personally division/classes only make some fell better until they are getting beat again by someone in their own class. Then they want more delineation.

Most shoot these matches for the fun and socialization.

Most clubs don’t have enough shooters to really matter.

Use the scores to challenge yourself and get better. See how close you are to the best and are you getting closer. If not practice more or just shoot it to have fun.

reubenski said:

My perception is that NRL22 has a bit of an identity crisis. The word "crisis" is a bit of a hyperbole but I guess it's a phrase. NRL22 has this image of being a homegrown, low pressure, local, club series only sport. Lots of kids, family atmosphere, cheaper guns, restricting the longer range stuff to ensure inclusivity for more club's/ ranges and I would guess to keep the high end stuff from being necessary. But....

There is a national finale with the 95% of the top folks also being sponsered nationally competitive center fire competitors. At my club there are at least one or two very competitive PRS shooters smashing everyone, every match. Shooting V22's topped with Schmidt's and lot tested ammo. These same discussions that occur on the NRL22 FB page are mainly dominated by these guys. The discussion of gear and equipment restrictions that are going on come from those concurrently happening in PRS. Because the guys influencing or even administrating the 22 series are also NRL series shooters. They're bringing the ideology about the use of tripods, bags, and other gear to NRL22.

In full disclosure, I shoot PRS, club matches, renegade field matches, Fclass, and NRL22. I help run a club series that counts PRS points. I, personally could give two shits if our points get counted in PRS but other people do, so we do. I started shooting NRL22 in February this last year. I shoot a Vudoo in an MPA with a weight kit in it. I've won all but two matches I've shot and I've beat the second place guy by as much as 250 points. It doesn't feel good. I'm not proud of that and I feel like an ass just going back every month. I try to be humble and unassuming about it. It's just that it's either that or I don't shoot the match. I enjoy shooting the match and I want to shoot the finale. Hell, I want to compete in the finale.

So we have one lady that shoots Every match and sometimes two women and occasionally a kid. 80% are older men. One is an older gentleman that can't physically shoot the positions. So there is an aspect of being the local, "for fun" club match. And some of us are multi sport shooters who enjoy finery's as much as some people enjoy cost friendly accessability.

So, I see the dichotomy and I am part of the cause for it. In the discussion of gear restrictions in NRL22 I advocated for no restriction to Open class. I only use a mini-pint sized waxed GC and occasionally a data card, but for an Open division I don't like the idea of restrictions. One guy got so emotional on me that he all but shouted(in text), "NRL22 is all about inclusivity! So take your expensive gear/ PRS bullshit and GTFO!" We talked it out, but he is a hard core believer in NRL22 as a family function and PRS counter-culture.

It's rough to make everyone happy. Human nature is to control the environment with restrictions, rules, divisions, etc. I think, the ironic result is you actually end up limiting inclusivity by doing that. But I guess the perception is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as speaking directly to divisions or classes, I always look at the overall results. Even when I shot IPSC and 3G I was never consoled by my placement in SS or TacOps. I cared about where I placed against everyone. But it's no sweat off my ass if someone else wants to see where they rack and stack in Open C-class. I just think they will outgrow it. Nothing stops your club from breaking down classes for shooter skill like IPSC but I don't see a point for the national points race that feeds into the finale where everyone is trying to win one match.

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Basically this. I shoot enough matches to get a few wins and go to the national match. After that I only go if I happen to not have anything going on.

I've seen this before and all it does is water down the sport and creates too many facets which leads to people losing interest.

Me personally, I get better by chasing the better shooter. If all the amateurs are in their own class shooting against each other, all they will remain are amateurs. Most of the things I have learned in PRS I did so only with watching and copying what the more experienced shooters do. There is a merit to having an entry, mid and top class but then it should be a progressive system designed to push everyone to the top so that everyone can compete on the same level. It sucks when you shoot a few matches and come last. It sucks more when it keeps happening becuase you aren't learning. The only way to learn, in my opinion, is in the deep end of the pool.

Having different devisions based on setup and gear is a different matter all together.

Just curious as to your thoughts on when a base class shooter is the overall winner out shooting the entire open class field?

Or comes in 4th overall, first in base, outperforming 8 other open class shooters shooting 3k-4K setups while using a sub 1k rifle?

I see no reason against a 2 class system. Open (unrestricted) and base (restricted). Keep he sub 1050 for base and tell the high rollers game each other.

DFOOSKING said:

I love it. My buddy Joseph who works on his farm every day came in with a box stock Tikka T1X and a Athlon and smashed everybody in Open by 100pts being in Base. (keep in mind we shoot more than 5 stages at every match).

It proves that if you are a good shooter with solid form and middle to good gear.....its more than enough. Joe won twice this year believe! And he's shot maybe 3 events this year total.View attachment 7211226View attachment 7211227

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And that my good sir is my entire point.

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The field is more even than it may appear.

Never shot a PRS or NRL22 match...

I have shot USPSA, and the “class for everyone” mentality is silly. Seen more than one Revo class shooter shoot just plain awful but “win” their class on any given day because there was only one other Revo shooter. While the local group of guys and gals were awesome people and happy to help, the number of classes was pretty silly

Things that will make a sport grow is skilled shooters that “win” matches humble enough to show those with little to no skill how to get better.

Other sports and shooting disciplines use a handicap system to even out the playing field.

At least to a point, for instance everyone's favorite sport golf, the stuff on TV just goes lowest score, but at a more local level handicap is used.

Trap is similar with the low handicap (high skill shooters)standing farther back on the line compared to the high handicap (lower skill shooters) thus using distance to try and level out the field. When trophy shoots come around then the shooters are slotted into groups to compete with similar skill shooters (a bit of a safety thing as well as having a guy stand at the 25 line and one at the 15 line would be dangerous) each taking home a trophy for that slot. At least that's how my local trap league did it.

Well. If you want to put a 50.00 optic on that 457 (msrp 999.00) to make base class than I am sure you could.

Just because your rifle qualifies for base it does not stop you from shooting open. It is still your option to shoot open or base.

And what is this talk of payouts at club level monthly events....

None of the matches I've done had any prizes. It was basically $20 to come and shoot fun stages. NRL22 has the monthly drawing, but other rimfire PRS like matches here don't have prizes, and they still have good attendence of people who just want to have fun. The money goes to the club who spent the time closing down a range to host the event. We get about 10-15 shooters.

Locally our NRL22 matches do no trophies and no payouts. Sometimes there are “prizes” but rarely. We have little trouble attracting shooters even with 4 clubs within an hour of each other.

Why is it that everyone wants to divide up the shooting base further. It’s intended to be fun friendly competition.

when did it become about how much I get to take home and I am not in the top so I want more divisions/classifications so I can be 1st in my combination of them.

littlepod said:

None of the matches I've done had any prizes. It was basically $20 to come and shoot fun stages. NRL22 has the monthly drawing, but other rimfire PRS like matches here don't have prizes, and they still have good attendence of people who just want to have fun. The money goes to the club who spent the time closing down a range to host the event. We get about 10-15 shooters.

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Same here!

Well. There is the slap on the back along with the “ see you next month”.

Well. Usually we get 20-30 shooters.

Eliminate payout. Eliminate problem.

Or, all money collected goes to the host club minus expenses. Adjust shooters fees if needed. Or, randomly draw payouts.

Plenty of ways to address it on a club/md level without changing rules on a national level.

Might be hard to put the toothpaste back into the tube for your group at this point.

Meh.

Well, you and I don’t have problems with it so that makes it beer time where I am.

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Opinion:
This should be a fun match where you compete against yourself and friends. If you are going away upset and pissed off then you may want to reevaluate why you are doing it.

DFOOSKING said:

There's no problem. The people HERE are saying there's a problem. Nobody actually attending the match is complaining.

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I don’t think anyone was saying don’t do a payout. And certainly I am not upset as you so kindly indicated. If you took my comments as such then there was a misinterpretation of what I was saying.

If you have the ability to do a payout then go for it.

My comments were more toward what people “expect”. I want a payout/prize I want to be first. It’s a hobby not a profession.

Every match I shoot keeps my money. The clubs pay for targets and close to their members so we can shoot. I have no expectation of them to pay me back.

Have not read all the comments so someone may have said this...
My opinion only,
Base class should be for “beginning” shooters. One years worth of matches then you move to open.
The gear restrictions I do like for all classes.
However at our local club we usually run an additional 3-5 unlimited gear stages. Everyone shoots together, everyone! boys, girls, women, men, old or young, Wookiee or stormtrooper all are classed together.
I like how our match director runs it! I have not heard any complaints from “our” local shooters.

Call it whatever you want
How about calling it “the way to get new folks in shooting and not feeling like they can’t be competitive or have fun cause of all the experienced shooters with all the skills/ability that they don’t have.

Now are you going to criticize my run on sentence? Ok then how about this,
I’m pretty sure we all have read the statement from the Nrl22 that base is to entice new shooters to the ranks.
We all know it’s the Indian not the arrow. So an experienced shooter in base is just taking advantage of the new folks. Of course this is all my opinion.

You cannot stop gaming, people will find a way to make it easier for them to "win", particularly if it's an expensive limited class. However, if we look at PRS production class, there just aren't that many people shooting the production class. Frankly raise the upper limit.

People who are competitive and gun nuts (most here are, most at matches are) will want something nicer and be interested in upgrading, some or all of thier kit, optics, rifle chassis, for no other reason than having a cool rifle.

Now you are being “cumbersome”! ?
Cheating, that’s when you don’t follow the rules.
What we are doing, now that’s simply a game.
So in my mind we are all gaming, some are trying to cheat the game.
Now then ask me if I like solutions, absolutely! And yes I also think rules can be bent.

Now what is this sex thing you speak of? ?

New shooters, by definition, should not be competitive when compared against the rest of the field. If the new shooter is then he isn’t new, he is experienced.
If the shooter doesn’t feel like he can compete then shoot more! Watering down the field so “he/she” came feel competitive seems like a snowflake idea.

This sounds more and more like” I am butt hurt because I am not winning”.

If you want to create a entirely new class called “ new, novice, skill building” or whatever I guess you could.

I don’t see why you would want to force people out of a base( production, price capped or however you want to define it) into open/unlimited ( Almost anything goes and there are no limits).

If a base shooter CHOOSES to shoot open with a base rifle then that’s one thing.

If people are pissy that they “can’t” win a payout or prize, then just completely randomize the payouts or prizes. I and others have passed up payouts/prizes so they can draw another name and go to others, maybe a new shooter.

Maybe I am one of those that “ just didn’t get it!”

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10ring1 said:

I am mixing up terminology. You are right. I mean classes, based on pure skill only. None of this thread is intended to pose a question about equipment (or division separation based on that). More just inquiring based on level of skill

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So you just want to start a brand new organization with an entire new rule set or scrap the entire existing one and reform it?

@eca7891
Agree with what you are stating.
Most of my comments about the base class are due to, people complaining about the rules. Also the NRL22 has stated the mission for base class was to bring in new shooters to the sport. A kind of stepping stone. Base class 22 to open class 22 then on to centerfire competition. That was the initial goal from what I understand. Not a snowflake/butt hurt issue at all.

I do think the experienced shooters should be in open. Why not? I get beat by an older guy with a “base” rifle every time I’m out there. He’s better than me!
I like seeing new shooters/young guns/women compete with similar levels. Most of them want the same thing that’s my personal reason for seeing that way. Lot of sports are based on skill level. However I agree we cannot build classes for every silly issue!

Then the simple solution would be to form another class named “x” for new shooters.

To me that would be the simplest solution with minimal turmoil.

Hell, I could be completely wrong and I usually am. ?

Finish top 50% you get to be called “Greatest That Ever Lived”. Bottom 50% get to be called “Practice More Not Quite Great Yet”.

But hey at least the top of the bottom 50% could say they are almost great.

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All joking aside the new shooters will come back regardless, if they are welcomed and communicated with.

We have a young gun who comes out with his grandfathers old wood stock 22 and duplex reticle. Has the time of his life and gets a huge grin on his face when I let him use my Vudoo at the 200 yard stage.

It’s the people they interact with that gets them to want to come back

usafa77 said:

That shooter with the $8000 rig could beat you (and me) with your gun.

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Or lose to the guy with a 1500 dollar rig who shoots a barrel out every 3 months practicing.

One thing I’ve learned over a lot of years competing in everything from drag racing to cycling to bass tournaments to shooting, practice and prep by the competitor will almost always outshine money spent (except drag racing, you just can’t beat money there lol).

I’ve been schooled at weigh in by a guy in a 5000 dollar boat using basic sonar when I had a 60,000 dollar boat with 10k in electronics and easily 10k in the best JDM reels, crank baits, custom soft baits, etc, just because that guy had more time and better instincts on that lake.

The gun is only as good as the guy behind it and me personally, I love to fish, pedal, and shoot with people better than me because if I’m coming out on top I’m getting complacent. I need people better than me to drive me to do better myself.

I still think the NRA Classification system (Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, High Master) is actually still a decent way to address grouping people in the same competitive skill level. I've read of people gaming the NRA classification system by tanking every other match to keep their average low and stay in a lower class so they can shoot a high score in a big match with more prizes (e.g. Regional or State Championship), but I have never seen that in real-life.

IMO, when it comes to competitive shooting, people ultimately want to shoot the best they can. So if we 'class' shooters based on prior scores, this will help to make sure people compete against those at the match of similar skill level, regardless of equipment.

As far as high dollar rigs and people complaining that NRL22 is becoming a gear race, I can sort of see why people see it that way, but at the same time, my argument is that I don't *need* all the high dollar gear. But I want to use it because I get enjoyment out of using that gear. In all seriousness, I don't need a V-22 to shoot the standard NRL22 CoF well. But I love shooting that rifle. It's a great tool and I want to run it because it's a joy to shoot.

We just started running regular NRL22 matches and the first monthly match a couple weekends ago didn't have a prize or payout and I didn't plan on having any. Right now we're charging $20 per shooter ($5 for juniors). All that money goes directly to the club (range facility) and I have to submit reimbursement requests for stuff I buy to operate the match (e.g. props and supplies such as buckets, paint, wood for tank trap, NRL22 match score submission fees, etc). I am currently running the match with my own NRL22 target package (plus extra targets I bought) because I didn't want to ask the club for much money to get the matches going.

As far as not having a prize or payout for the 'winners', I didn't think we needed those for a monthly NRL22. When I still shot High Power Service Rifle, the monthly Across the Course matches at my club only had NRA points as the payout, which could be used to pay towards future (NRA approved/registred) match fees. The bigger matches (e.g. regional, state) are where there were prizes. Frankly, I didn't care about prizes when I shot High Power. I was looking to practice and increase my scoring average. I wanted to make High Master with the Service Rifle (never did before I stopped competing) and get Distinguished Rifleman (did that).

Considering NRL22 was meant to be a longer term points race with all matches being aggregated in a central tracking system, along with the NRL22 monthly drawings, I figure a prize/payout wouldn't be really needed for a standard monthly NRL22. For me, I just wanted to shoot NRL22 for the enjoyment of shooting. If I won, I didn't care about a prize. If others don't feel the same way and we need to draw in more shooters as the schedule goes on, then I guess I'll have to rethink the whole prize pool concept. But I'm hoping that people who shoot the NRL22 monthly matches are doing it for the enjoyment of competition, and not to win some sort of prize.

I feel like this whole thing is a non issue. 2 classes for EVERYONE period. We dont need to create classification for skill levels. If your good great, if you suck then practice. These argument about not being able to compete are coming from people who A. Want things given to them B. Never practice. How is that fair for the guy that is top 5 every month that runs thousands of rounds down his rifle practicing. I think the kids and women can shoot with everyone else, especially when they are shooting 5-6k setups. More kids get turned away that are shooting a $200 10/22 vs a vudoo then grown men who dont know how to take a ass kicking. This whole argument comes down to practice, practice, practice, if you do it you can win with a wide price range of gear.

Base class should be restricted to moa only, along with android phones. Open class should be mils and iPhone.

Basically, a poor and not poor class.

Dthomas3523 said:

Base class should be restricted to moa only, along with android phones. Open class should be mils and iPhone.

Basically, a poor and not poor class.

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Wouldn’t that be the haves and have nots?

The winner of basic moves up.

This is a non issue, and one that will not be solved with more classes or internet arguing.

Gamers are going to game to get to the championship. Having a run what you brung class makes sense to grow the sport, since most people will want to upgrade whether or not that actually helps thier score.

People who like the vibe, the competition, the learning and the shooting will come back regardless of thier class and performance. At PRS, and NRL events winning anything other open is like being the world's tallest midget. At least thats how the clubs I shoot with treat it.

Furthermore, if someone is winning base class they are probably competitive enough to win open. Wouldn't they want to move up to open, regardless of gear changes or lack thier of, since there is joy in using a 1k set up to beat a guy with a 4k set up?

I'm all fine with people running Android, but the second I see their Android device on the enterprise network beaconing out to a botnet or to a nation-state APT group, I drop the ban hammer. Seriously, you'd be surprised by the amount of Android malware traffic we see on a large enterprise-level BYOD wifi network. That's not to say we don't see iOS malware traffic, but that's few and far between, especially since they cleaned up the Asian iTunes App store a couple years ago.

Note: If you get Xhelper on your Android device, just toss it and get a new phone.

DFOOSKING said:

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Sad that's how people respond with when we tell them we saw their banking information being sent out from their Android device unencrypted / in the clear to some random eastern European or African continent IP address.

Been having a lot of conversations with folks at my local club about this class delineation issues in NRL22.

For me, the bottom line is this:

I shoot NRL22 and other PRS22 matches with the intent of learning the PRS sport. That is to get comfortable with the rules, written and unwritten, the feel of a PRS match, and the effective tools and tricks for different types of stages and barricades, without spending money for centerfire ammo.

If I can't use the same (or at least similar) types of tools, then NRL22 becomes a way to waste an occasional Saturday or Sunday morning. A fun morning, sure. But that's not sporting event, or something that I should be putting time, money and energy into excelling at it.

I understand that base class has a place and a purpose. Which, to my understanding, is to get new shooters in the door and competing, without them feeling a huge financial barrier to entry. It is specifically stated that Base class is not a place for skilled/experienced shooters to sandbag.

The class delineation based on cost of equipment fails for 2 reasons:

First, as someone else here pointed out, a skilled shooter with a stock Tikka T1x could wipe the floor with a beginner shooting a Vuddo V-22.

Second, the MSRP has very little to do with street price, and so a beginning shooter, like myself, who takes even a minimal amount of time and effort, can buy a rifle, scope and equipment for far less than the $1050 MSRP cap, because of course we are all looking to get the best balance of quality gear for budget prices, and then find themselves locked out of the class which is designed for beginners, or having to choose to buy gear which is not as good and costs more actual money, becasue it is nearer to its MSRP.

My own experience was that my half decent $529 MSRP Ruger Precision Rimfire was purchaseable for about $380, and the optic I bought, an Athlon ARES BTR 4.5-27 x 50, which is supposed to cost $1,062.49 at MSRP, I bought for $399. So my $780 street price buy cost me $1600 at MSRP. So, as a first year shooter after a 20 year hiatus, my desire to buy good kit for a good price locks me into the Open class automatically.

My suggestion, if I could rub a lamp and change the rules, would be to have one set of rules for everyone. No limits on gear price, and pretty limited interference with whatever gear you want to use, save on specific stages, which are gear limited by their nature, as with the positional stages. Since as we all know, the rifle is does not make the shooter, this shouldn't mean much for who's winning the classes.

And as for classes, I'd have 4, and they would overlap. Maybe, rather than "classes" they'd be ranking lists. A way to filter your results and compare them to your peers, regardless of what peer means to you.

Those classes would be Rookie, Open/Veteran, Women's, and Youth. If you want euipment based classes like air rifle, that would work too.

The key point would be that everyone would rank in Open/Veteran, along with whatever filter classes they qualify for. That also would mean that the High Lady, if she outshot the top of the Open/Vet class, would rank in both categories. Same with youth, or Rookies.

Qualifying for the filter classes would be simple. Rookie would include anyone with no more than 2 seasons of participation. That gives you a year to figure out the system, and a year to be reasonably competitive in a filter class, before automatically bumping to the Open/Veteran class. Ladies is fairly obvious. Smae with youth.

The thing I like about the idea of everyone ranking in open class, as well as their filter class, is that is gives both a reasonable fied of peers to compete against, in the filter classes, and an aspirational ranking in Open, that means you have something to strive to improve, a reason to try to get better, because you see how you stack up overall. And especially as you know you can't stay in a Rookie class forever.

One other thing: Changing the rules by including limits on equipment BY CLASS in the monthly COF is weak.

In any competition, the Course of Fire is designed to tell a competitor how to run a stage. If you have different rules for different classes, especially stage rules designed to "fix" loopholes in your overall organization rules, that is not something that fits in the course of fire. Have the stones to say, "We didn't anticipate people doing insert annoying thing here, and we think it isn't good. So we're going to change the rules to disallow it, starting on X date."

Or better yet, don't change the rules at all, because someone finding a way to make your stages to easy is what competition is about.

Instead, make tougher stages, or find ways to make the wierd modded 30 lb, 20" wide sled that some jackass attached to his ARCA rail irrelevant. Make a barricade where it isn't helpful. Or a stage where its a disadvatage for half the stage, but might help on the other half.

Last point, then rant over:

Right now, a rifle which is otherwise base class, but which has a $40 MLOK ARCA rail attached, is automatically banned form base class. It is apparently irrelevant that ARCA is just a method of attachement, and that pertty much nothing which is used with an ARCA plate can't also be attached with the perfectly permissable (by current rules) pic rail mounts.

Because I am using NRL22 as a test bed for PRS, and because I use the same rifle for PRS22 matches, I bought an ARCA rail for my rifle. IN NRL22 matches, the only thing I used it to attach is my Atlas bipod, which can also be attached with a pic rail and a different bipod clamp. Since, according to current rules, nothing except a bipod or a sling can be attached to the rifle in any case, why the H-E-double hockey sticks doeswhat rail I use to attach my bipod define my class as a shooter?

The only reasonI can see, with my limited experience, is a blind, "We're not PRS" reflex that wasn't thought through at all. Now, there may be something that I don't see. If so, please explain it to me. Because, as it sits, the rules that are being applied are having effects opposite to their intent, and frankly, if I can't innovate and test equipment, and improve my game overall, then I'm not sure NRL22 is going to remain interesting to me.

meestermeetch said:

This is a non issue, and one that will not be solved with more classes or internet arguing.

Gamers are going to game to get to the championship. Having a run what you brung class makes sense to grow the sport, since most people will want to upgrade whether or not that actually helps thier score.

People who like the vibe, the competition, the learning and the shooting will come back regardless of thier class and performance. At PRS, and NRL events winning anything other open is like being the world's tallest midget. At least thats how the clubs I shoot with treat it.

Furthermore, if someone is winning base class they are probably competitive enough to win open. Wouldn't they want to move up to open, regardless of gear changes or lack thier of, since there is joy in using a 1k set up to beat a guy with a 4k set up?

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I like the vibe. I want to shoot, and I want to get better. The reason this is an issue is because they are modifying the COF to prevent behavior they don't like, without considering the consequences of their modifications to other shooters.

i.e: "That guy is attaching a sled to his ARCA rail. NO MORE ARCA rails!" "Oh you just bought a $350 bipod with an ARCA clamp? Too bad can't use it. Buy a new one with a pic rail clamp."

I might be hung up on the ARCA issue, because of my experience, but its seriously annoying to have someone tell me "We don't want this to be a gear race. Now go buy gear we approve of."

Well it IS a sport....it just doesn't cookie cutter copy the big gun format to a T. Its understandable if you don't feel its worth your time. But its still a sport. And there are in fact skills you will inevitably learn that carry over. Your throwing away the baby with the bath water here.

/// I'm not throwing away anything. I'm saying it isn't a useful competition FOR ME, if they minimize all the competitive test bed aspects. It becomes a weekend diversion, not a useful aspect of MY sporting life. ///

Once you see you don't qualify...you should be making changes to gear chosen prior to purchase or going whole hog within your financial ability. I personally run a rifle that was $35 when new with a $950 optic. Being discontinued....I'm Open Class. You know what I do? I go kick ass with it or look for better equipment....cuz I'm Open Class now. I am not a novice so it doesn't matter. And I would wager to say that anyone smart enough to do proper due diligence to buy stuff that is border lining the rule so tightly that you fail to pass and are getting upset...your probably not truly a novice either. And lets not forget you still have MD discretion that could still allow you to keep your rifle in base if you truly are a novice. Novices simply don't have the experience to think this far through typically.

///When I bought my gear, it did qualify. My irritation is over rule changes (that aren't really rule changes) which eliminate gear I've already purchased when it was allowed, and a month later it gets the ban hammer. As you say, it makes my choices either buy new, different gear, and hope they don't decide that it's not appropriate next month, or go whole hog in Open class. Which is what I've done, since I can't run base. And as far as "Novices don't think things through this thoroughly", well, I do. I have never shot any competition prior to this year, and an unofficial NRL22 match was the first I ever shot. I hadn't done any shooting, aside from an occaional rental range trip, since I left the Marines 20 years ago.///

Except the paper stages....having a super tack driver is an obvious benefit. And coincidentally, they are usually the stages that truly determine the match winner when the top tier shooters in their respective division are all shooting 85% (8 or 9 hits out of 10 on a stage consistently) or higher. Where literally the day is won with what amounts to a single impact on steel or a bad paper target.

/// I can see your point here. I'm not certain I agree fully, since tack driver or not, you have to be able to shoot it. I can shoot my MDs Vudoo, and I'll outshoot myself with my RPRR. But I won't outshoot my MD or my buddy with his T1x. But if it was going to matter more on one stage than the rest, it would be the paper stages.///

MD's are not going to go through that much effort to keep track of every individual and haul records around to do so. It needs to become simpler....not more elaborate.

/// It's not more work. It's less. And its simpler. Everyone in one group, with their chosen filter class label in the form. No different than base, open, ladies, youth, air rifle now. Add a filter to your scoresheet form, and everyone can see both the filter class rank, and the overall rank. ///


One other thing: Changing the rules by including limits on equipment BY CLASS in the monthly COF is weak.
In any competition, the Course of Fire is designed to tell a competitor how to run a stage. If you have different rules for different classes, especially stage rules designed to "fix" loopholes in your overall organization rules, that is not something that fits in the course of fire. Have the stones to say, "We didn't anticipate people doing insert annoying thing here, and we think it isn't good. So we're going to change the rules to disallow it, starting on X date."

^This is an opinion. I say being able to simply make a temporary change for whatever the reason is a good thing.
I agree, posting rule changes needs to be efficient and deliberate.

/// These are not 2 separate statements. It is weak, BECAUSE the CoF is stage directions, not class delineation. It's the different class rules that I find annoying, not having rules at all. ///

Or better yet, don't change the rules at all, because someone finding a way to make your stages to easy is what competition is about.

Agree with that statement as well.

They will NOT crank up difficulty. People already cry that they can't run or jump or move or see or yadda yadda yadda and stages should be/need to be simpler for elderly/handicapped/etc. Plus its pretty hard to make the standard 5 stages harder for certain support gear when the organization has a specific set of barricades chosen with the emphasis being that they are easy to acquire. And even then the guy carrying 16 bags and a pack full of shit will no doubt still come up with a fix that countermands it.

/// Agreed. That's why I said minimize interference with gear allowed, unless the specifc stage, i.e. positionals, requires it. ///

Obviously the MD's can add stages and do just that....add difficulty and improvised barricades. But one could argue that the very posting of COF amendments IS making the rail irrelevant....just not in a manner you see fit.

Maybe I was to introduce a COF that restricts any bipod usage for the month...why is that bad if its temporary? Is that not adding difficulty?

/// It's not bad, if it's actually a COF change, which also means it applies to everyone shooting the couorse of fire, regardless of class. That's no different than having nothing but a sling for positionals. But, to say that base can't use a sling, because they can't afford one, but Open can, because they have expensive rifles? That's stupid. And yes, its the ARCA rail I'm talking about. ///

Last point, then rant over:

Right now, a rifle which is otherwise base class, but which has a $40 MLOK ARCA rail attached, is automatically banned from base class. It is apparently irrelevant that ARCA is just a method of attachment, and that pretty much nothing which is used with an ARCA plate can't also be attached with the perfectly permissible (by current rules) pic rail mounts.

Because I am using NRL22 as a test bed for PRS, and because I use the same rifle for PRS22 matches, I bought an ARCA rail for my rifle. IN NRL22 matches, the only thing I used it to attach is my Atlas bipod, which can also be attached with a pic rail and a different bipod clamp. Since, according to current rules, nothing except a bipod or a sling can be attached to the rifle in any case, why the H-E-double hockey sticks does what rail I use to attach my bipod define my class as a shooter?

Yeah its dumb...but its a $40 part. Get rid of it. They aren't forcing you buy an entire new rifle. And there are far more non-ARCA bipods out there than the contrary. Again this comes off as either a gear snob issue or a non-novice complaining he can't skate with his high speed shit against the novice class.

/// Yeah, it's dumb. But it's a $40 dollar part that was allowed when purchased, and banned the next month. And throwing it away and replacing it requires buying, at minimum, and $80 clamp for the $300 bipod that it was purchased to support. And hoping they don't do it again next month. Just saying. ///

You are sounding less and less like a novice by the paragraph. Just saying.

/// It's called research. I have never shot any competition prior to this year, and an unofficial NRL22 match was the first I ever shot. I hadn't done any shooting, aside from an occaional rental range trip, since I left the Marines 20 years ago. ///

Just because you are using it as a test bed for PRS....does not mean that they have to conform to you. Just saying.

/// True. but since I'm talking about my viewpoint on the NRL22, its relevant, at least to some extent. It doesn't mean I expect they will do things my way. It does mean that my interest in continuing NRL22 matches might not be that strong, if my purpose for going is blocked by rule changes. Just saying. ///

The only reason I can see, with my limited experience, is a blind, "We're not PRS" reflex that wasn't thought through at all. Now, there may be something that I don't see. If so, please explain it to me. Because, as it sits, the rules that are being applied are having effects opposite to their intent, and frankly, if I can't innovate and test equipment, and improve my game overall, then I'm not sure NRL22 is going to remain interesting to me.

They probably were not clairvoyant when they anticipated the surge in popularity when they took on the venture. That's hardly a crime. And it very well could be their intent is flat out not be the PRS as they say. I would remain vigilant as all shooting sport entities had growing pains starting out. Next season could very well introduce a whole new set of rules that is more encompassing. Or not and you move on.

/// Yup. But this reply to someone's question is feedback that (I assume) they might read. And if they do, and decide its not valuable, ok. Hopefully, its one more weight on the side of more freedom and less arbitrary restriction. And if not, yeah, I'm likely to move on. ///

Please don't take my comments as bashing on you as they are not my intent. I chose the larger font to make it easier to read and reply to your statements. Please do not infer them as me yelling at you as that is not the intent.

/// Not likely to be an issue, unless you start being emotional, rather than presenting rational arguments for your points. I don't see that as probable. ///

I think it should left the way it is. Open and base is good enough for me and I haven’t heard any complaints in the few matches I’ve shot in. The local match I shoot at the MD will add $100 for open and base first place if there’s at least 10 shooters in that class and has plaques for first place finish in the two classes and for yong guns and I think this is not the reason the majority of shooters show up.
I sure didn’t hear this guy complain any in the last match and yes this was a 9 stage 22 NRL match.

drglock said:

I think it should left the way it is. Open and base is good enough for me and I haven’t heard any complaints in the few matches I’ve shot in. The local match I shoot at the MD will add $100 for open and base first place if there’s at least 10 shooters in that class and has plaques for first place finish in the two classes and for yong guns and I think this is not the reason the majority of shooters show up.
I sure didn’t hear this guy complain any in the last match and yes this was a 9 stage 22 NRL match.
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I have shot with this guy and he always shoots that lever action open sight rifle. Fun to watch.

Evidently his ego is not getting the best of him. His targets are. 22 caliber 40 grain lead from a lever gun. And to think the rest of us have to change the rules to match our guns and sights.

This is what the sport is all about. Having a good time and not crying in your spilled beer.

He has more balls than anyone here. Just a guess but he could probably smoke most of your asses with that lever gun.

Will probably need a new class for him and others like him named, " Horse Shit on Your Boots ". Least he will know what end to point forward when he is in the saddle.

I've participated in NRL22 since day 1. I agree that the classes do not work to separate by score, as an overall top score winner can come from any class. At nationals 2019 a (13? 14? I forget) year old girl in Young Guns was in 2nd place, ended up finishing 3rd overall. (Allison Zane will be a name to remember, she can shoot!)

And while I understand and appreciate the intent of the classes, especially Young Guns and Ladies, we usually only have one or two each at best at our matches, which basically hands a class win and drawing entry to someone for just showing up. I'm not complaining, don't care about winning random prizes, just pointing out that perhaps the result isn't matching the intent.

My only real complaint with the current classes is the base class definition. It prevents someone with, for example a 5-year-old rifle that's no longer sold, from entering the sport, because the MSRP of the rifle can no longer be verified online. It requires purchasing a new-ish rifle and scope, and I don't think that is the kind of barrier to entry they really intended.

I think if any class system needs to exist at all, a simplified experience-based class system would work better; Beginner, and Open. Beginners would move to Open after 10 matches or so. The match descriptions already do a good job of limiting "gear gaming" and 22LR ammo is inconsistent enough that I believe it's more about technique and experience than Gucci gear.

I think the NRL directors are good people, with good intent and who truly care about encouraging family participation. It's fun, actually challenging, uses inexpensive ammo, and is great practice for all kinds of positional precision matches.