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Why 223 and 308 are not dead .....yet

R

Renomd

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While not the sexiest of cartridges, regular 223 and 308 can still place well in tactical competitions.

Just ask Tim Milkovich who used a REGULAR 223 using 1x fired lake city brass and Nosler 85 rdf bullets going 2925 fps at the bushnell brawl (he did not reclaim his brass). I think his 3rd place finish speaks volumes of why it’s not the hottest new cartridge (cough cough 224 Valkyrie or 6 snowflake) that makes you shoot better... it’s the person behind the rifle.

And don’t toss your 308 out just yet, Eric Garza at the bushnell brawl used a regular old 308 in his AIAT, shooting FACTORY ammo and guess what ... ended up 4th place ahead of many many many top 50 PRS shooters. Of course if you’ve seen Eric Garza in person that 308 is probably like a 22lr for us Bc he can absorb that recoil like no ones business.

While I know as a 6 dasher shooter, we try to go after the hottest thing that makes us suck less, and the highest Bc bullet to rectify our wind call errors, check out the Nosler 85 rdf Bc (G1 of .498).... no where near the most used 6mm bullets (ie the claimed .617 G1 of the 110 smk).

So before you invest a ton of money and try to venture in our awesome sport and competitions don’t worry about “what caliber for prs”. Seriously... as John Mcquay says “get out and shoot!” And do so with whatever you got...master it... don’t drink cool-aid so easily.




I hope this post helps guide some of our new shooters to just get out to matches and shoot. There’s no need to feel embarrassed or inferior with your caliber or equipment.
 
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TheOE800 said:
She was lying when she said this.
Click to expand...

Hey, it's all about how you use it...

I agree, .308 and .223 are great calibers for shooters of all levels and you'll learn alot. The ammo is also readily available everywhere as well which makes them cost effective and easy to find.
 
The 223 is just loads of fun to shoot, never cared much for the 308 though..
 
I love my 223 Ackley. I built it initially as an inexpensive trainer, then added a little here and there, and now it's borderline custom.

28" barrel with 80gr ELD-M's pushing a little under 3100fps.
 
308 works great as a "trainer"

The extra recoil, over my 6mm match rifle, without a doubt helps keep me honest with my form and fundamentals
 
Renomd said:
While not the sexiest of cartridges, regular 223 and 308 can still place well in tactical competitions.

Just ask Tim Milkovich who used a REGULAR 223 using 1x fired lake city brass and Nosler 85 rdf bullets going 2925 fps at the bushnell brawl (he did not reclaim his brass). I think his 3rd place finish speaks volumes of why it’s not the hottest new cartridge (cough cough 224 Valkyrie or 6 snowflake) that makes you shoot better... it’s the person behind the rifle.

And don’t toss your 308 out just yet, Eric Garza at the bushnell brawl used a regular old 308 in his AIAT, shooting FACTORY ammo and guess what ... ended up 4th place ahead of many many many top 50 PRS shooters. Of course if you’ve seen Eric Garza in person that 308 is probably like a 22lr for us Bc he can absorb that recoil like no ones business.

While I know as a 6 dasher shooter, we try to go after the hottest thing that makes us suck less, and the highest Bc bullet to rectify our wind call errors, check out the Nosler 85 rdf Bc (G1 of .498).... no where near the most used 6mm bullets (ie the claimed .617 G1 of the 110 smk).

So before you invest a ton of money and try to venture in our awesome sport and competitions don’t worry about “what caliber for prs”. Seriously... as John Mcquay says “get out and shoot!” And do so with whatever you got...master it... don’t drink cool-aid so easily.

I hope this post helps guide some of our new shooters to just get out to matches and shoot. There’s no need to feel embarrassed or inferior with your caliber or equipment.
Click to expand...

I took the same message home after ROing at the Bushnell Elite Sniper Challenge in South Carolina.

While the distances were closer and cross wind was light to nil, this was a 3 day primary/secondary shooter team event where the second shooter had to use either 5.56NATO/.223Rem or 7.62NATO/308Win. It also required a fair bit of pistol shooting for both shooters which cut into the time left for the rifle targets.

The sexiest cartridge and most expensive rifle is not going to save your rear if you time out on a stage, engage the wrong target, fail to engage targets, get the wrong distance/dope from your buddy (because he did not find all targets on a known distance stage), get a DQ for sending a round trough a window frame (offset between bore and sight line is a bitch!), and so on.

If I understand correctly, PRS was created to put some fire under the high-end rifle market but maybe Tikka, Howa, Ruger or whoever could sponsor a "one-design" event where everybody has to use the same stick with factory ammo - like our military snipers. Not only would this tell us who the best Indian is regardless of the bow but it would also get a lot of new shooters from the sidelines to the firing line.
 
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alpine44 said:
I took the same message home after ROing at the Bushnell Elite Sniper Challenge in South Carolina.

While the distances were closer and cross wind was light to nil, this was a 3 day primary/secondary shooter team event where the second shooter had to use either 5.56NATO/.223Rem or 7.62NATO/308Win. It also required a fair bit of pistol shooting for both shooters which cut into the time left for the rifle targets.

The sexiest cartridge and most expensive rifle is not going to save your rear if you time out on a stage, engage the wrong target, fail to engage targets, get the wrong distance/dope from your buddy (because he did not find all targets on a known distance stage), get a DQ for sending a round trough a window frame (offset between bore and sight line is a bitch!), and so on.

If I understand correctly, PRS was created to put some fire under the high-end rifle market but maybe Tikka, Howa, Ruger or whoever could sponsor a "one-design" event where everybody has to use the same stick with factory ammo - like our military snipers. Not only would this tell us who the best Indian is regardless of the bow but it would also get a lot of new shooters from the sidelines to the firing line.
Click to expand...

I like your thoughts on this....
 
alpine44 said:
I took the same message home after ROing at the Bushnell Elite Sniper Challenge in South Carolina.

While the distances were closer and cross wind was light to nil, this was a 3 day primary/secondary shooter team event where the second shooter had to use either 5.56NATO/.223Rem or 7.62NATO/308Win. It also required a fair bit of pistol shooting for both shooters which cut into the time left for the rifle targets.

The sexiest cartridge and most expensive rifle is not going to save your rear if you time out on a stage, engage the wrong target, fail to engage targets, get the wrong distance/dope from your buddy (because he did not find all targets on a known distance stage), get a DQ for sending a round trough a window frame (offset between bore and sight line is a bitch!), and so on.

If I understand correctly, PRS was created to put some fire under the high-end rifle market but maybe Tikka, Howa, Ruger or whoever could sponsor a "one-design" event where everybody has to use the same stick with factory ammo - like our military snipers. Not only would this tell us who the best Indian is regardless of the bow but it would also get a lot of new shooters from the sidelines to the firing line.
Click to expand...
We were in the lead there until the paper stage where my partner never got to shoot because his target wasn't visible. We finished in 5th overall, 3rd Mech. We deliberated over whether I should shoot 6.5 as the primary shooter or if we both wanted to shoot .308 like we normally do. Because we were allowed to and because we didn't know exactly how far out how much wind I'd deal with I brought a 6.5 Creed. Time management and communication were far more important than the rifle I chose.
 
The 6.5 creedmoor while I'm loving it I still love my .223. I'm hoping to rebarrel the .223 with a faster twist.
 
I think the part where the OP says "he did not reclaim his brass" speaks volumes. Pushing a cartridge way outside its performance envelope is not doing anyone any favors.
 
t
goosed said:
308 works great as a "trainer"
Click to expand...
Really? Can you mark a target, start a fire w/o noise 600yds away, punch threw a barrier an start a fire or tag a target. Do a sentry/s very quietly then signal kick off ? If your stick can do all that then you might be ready for a true tactical event. Until then it's but a pipe dream.
 
xkv8r said:
I think the part where the OP says "he did not reclaim his brass" speaks volumes. Pushing a cartridge way outside its performance envelope is not doing anyone any favors.
Click to expand...

I took it as who cares if you lose a piece of .05 lake city brass, not that he was pushing it crazy hard.
 
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Afkirby said:
I took it as who cares if you lose a piece of .05 lake city brass, not that he was pushing it crazy hard.
Click to expand...
Also the bushnell brawl is a lost brass match, you are not allowed to pick up brass at your stage only from the gigantic pile at the end of the match.
 
You can go to many ranges and pick up free 5.56 LC brass every saturday morning.
 
Congrats Scott! That's great marksmanship.

What were the wind and distances like?

You guys were shooting AR's?

You mentioned time management and communication made the difference, could you give some examples please. You said you brought the 6.5 creed so I'm assuming the conditions didn't warrant using the 6.5???

I guess I better get a longer barrel for my AR and try those 85's!
 
Gunfighter14e2 said:
t
Really? Can you mark a target, start a fire w/o noise 600yds away, punch threw a barrier an start a fire or tag a target. Do a sentry/s very quietly then signal kick off ? If your stick can do all that then you might be ready for a true tactical event. Until then it's but a pipe dream.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you just said...
 
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Terry H said:
.308 not sexy? I beg to differ. ;)

Click to expand...
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OK .. I got to know.. what Load/bullet you have 'stretched-out' there in .308win . most definitely looks like some respectable Longaction feeding going on there with meticulous brass prep. also thrown-in .
.
 
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Lapua LRP brass neck turned and trimmed. Berger 200.20x projectile. OAL 3.10. Actually a pretty common round in the F-T/R long range game.
 
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Birddog6424 said:
This is the internet..
Click to expand...
Yep, lots of make believe an dreamers on the net.
"Can you mark a target, start a fire w/o noise 600yds away, punch threw a barrier an start a fire or tag a target. Do a sentry/s very quietly then signal kick off ? If your stick can do all that then you might be ready for a true tactical event. "
That is all possible with a 308, or any 30 cal for that matter. In-fact there is/was one as close to real comp as could be held, in Fla where If you could not do the aforementioned, there was no need to even try to get a slot even if you could. Putting lead on target is only a small percentage of mission complete when real.
 
Gunfighter14e2 said:
Yep, lots of make believe an dreamers on the net.
"Can you mark a target, start a fire w/o noise 600yds away, punch threw a barrier an start a fire or tag a target. Do a sentry/s very quietly then signal kick off ? If your stick can do all that then you might be ready for a true tactical event. "
That is all possible with a 308, or any 30 cal for that matter. In-fact there is/was one as close to real comp as could be held, in Fla where If you could not do the aforementioned, there was no need to even try to get a slot even if you could. Putting lead on target is only a small percentage of mission complete when real.
Click to expand...

WTF, are you even talking about? Your not making any sense whatsoever. In fact, it sounds like your stepping out into Bowe Bergdahl territory. I don't get it, explain please.
 
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softcock said:
-
Man you got that Rod looking Pimp like Liberace at the 82 Oscars .
.
Click to expand...

Thanks...I think..lol.. I'm in the body shop business so can't help myself when it comes to smearing a little paint. Wanted something different. Guess I got it.

Best view of the pimp paintwork is on the bottom where nobody ever sees it. ;) And by the way, this was a ton of work. Not sure I'd do it again.

 
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Terry H said:
Thanks...I think..lol.. I'm in the body shop business so can't help myself when it comes to smearing a little paint. Wanted something different. Guess I got it.

Best view of the pimp paintwork is on the bottom where nobody ever sees it. ;) And by the way, this was a ton of work. Not sure I'd do it again.
Click to expand...
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It Loud but It a complement . and moving 200 grain out a .308win @ 2600+ is no slouch .
.
 
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I have shot and still do shoot 308. 208 gn. Amax with RL 17 in a 24" barrel. I'm getting 2637 fps average. I've hit targets constantly at 1200 Y. Look up Montana Marine's thread 308 RL17 208 AMAX Lapua brass? Its a single load only for me, but i'm working on making that change?
 
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I love 223 for 52-69 trainers 750 yards and in. From my experience pushing the heavy 85 grain bullets to be competitive you will be loosening up primer pockets and splitting necks after a firing or two. Good chance there’s a trick that these guys know that I don’t. Maybe annealing a certain brand brass and an ultra tight chamber with a bushed firing pin.
 
Terry H said:
Thanks...I think..lol.. I'm in the body shop business so can't help myself when it comes to smearing a little paint. Wanted something different. Guess I got it.

Best view of the pimp paintwork is on the bottom where nobody ever sees it. ;) And by the way, this was a ton of work. Not sure I'd do it again.

Click to expand...

I think it looks fantastic! I like stuff that's different so this appeals.
 
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chevytruck_83 said:
I love 223 for 52-69 trainers 750 yards and in. From my experience pushing the heavy 85 grain bullets to be competitive you will be loosening up primer pockets and splitting necks after a firing or two. Good chance there’s a trick that these guys know that I don’t. Maybe annealing a certain brand brass and an ultra tight chamber with a bushed firing pin.
Click to expand...
The firing pin influences how soon the primer craters or blows out into the firing pin hole. If the primers get loose, the case head has begun to flow.
If you want to push the .223 to its edge, use brass that has a hard case head, highest internal volume, soft neck/shoulder and seat the bullets far out, which means single loading in anything that uses an AR length magazine. Someone shooting "service rifle" will know the tricks of the trade. I think they even use 90 grainers.
 
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Tim uses MDT magazines and 85g bullets and small firing pin.

I’m sure pressure is on the upward end of the scale but at $90 per 1000 pieces prepped ready to load I don’t think I’d pick it up either. He’s spending more time shooting then on the loading bench.
Eric is a good friend, he shot the 308 in the Rifles Only Brawl, he’s 6’5” or so and a fantastic shooter that knows his 308. I shot along side him at Lone Survivor last year and he was one of the highest scores on the pavilion stage. Started at 700 i think and ended up at 1100.

I think a big key in these 2 guys is constant shooting and great fundamentals, if you can’t spot and correct your misses you’ve already lost.
 
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