Chronograph or kestral?

[Mattm8725]

Hey guys, I'm looking for some ideas for what gear to get next? I can't afford both right away, but eventually I will get both. So with that said what gear would you guys suggest? The magnetospeed or kestral?

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[Nik H]

If you reload, I would think a chronograph would be important. This being said, I borrow a chronograph from my buds all the time but a Kestrel with AB is pretty damn nice. I love mine

 

[Kopfjager1]

Agreed, if you handload get a chrongraph, chances are theres plenty of people with a kestrel at the ranges that you could get atmospherics from. There's alternatives to a kestrel, not for a chrongraph except MV pulled from a ballistic calculator using your data.

If you don't handload, definitely get the kestrel with AB first. It will serve more than 1 purpose.

 

[Fursniper]

Chronograph would be my 1st choice, you can get environmental data from other sources.

 

[strikeeagle1]

I would recommend first getting a device that gives you accurate muzzle velocity data before atmospherics.

Even if you don't handload, knowing which mfg. provides the best performance cartridge for your rifle by accurately documenting their individual muzzle velocities will pay greater dividends for target accuracy.

In the bar graph, note the overwhelming influence muzzle velocity has on vertical certainty on probability of hits v. wind speed error. Obviously, the goal is to know how to minimize the uncertainties in both these deterministic variables. Notice the very small influence wind knowledge has on vertical performance; admittedly, horizontal performance is quite another.

Ref: Applied Ballistics Analytics User Manual, Build 057

 

[Mattm8725]

That's alot of good info strikeeagle, and everyone else thanks for your input as well. I don't handload yet, that is something I want to get into further down the line. Sounds to me like most everyone is suggesting a chronograph, so looks like I'm gonna go that route. Thanks!

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[manscout]

a kestrel can give you your muzzle velocity as can a lot of ballistics software/apps. the truing function is pretty good and goes along with the "believe the bullet" mindset. a kestrel will be far more useful.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf5p_7_8S1Q

 

[LastShot300]

Chronograph would be my 1st choice, you can get environmental data from other sources.

Same advice here, but if you are into LR/ELR sooner rather than later you will need to get ahold of a weather meter.

 

[LastShot300]

a kestrel can give you your muzzle velocity as can a lot of ballistics software/apps. the truing function is pretty good and goes along with the "believe the bullet" mindset. a kestrel will be far more useful.

Don't think this is a good idea. A chrono actually MEASURES your bullet velocity, while a program ESTIMATES it based on its own internal model. Not the same thing, not even close. If you find yourself "truing" for velocity then you are in a problem.

 

[JBM_DC]

Don't think this is a good idea. A chrono actually MEASURES your bullet velocity, while a program ESTIMATES it based on its own internal model. Not the same thing, not even close. If you find yourself "truing" for velocity then you are in a problem.

I agree with this 100%

If you do not know anyone that will let you borrow a chronograph then you need to make new friends. Also purchase a chronograph.

After the chronograph situation is sorted out then you should think about a Kestrel.

 

[manscout]

Don't think this is a good idea. A chrono actually MEASURES your bullet velocity, while a program ESTIMATES it based on its own internal model. Not the same thing, not even close. If you find yourself "truing" for velocity then you are in a problem.

doesn't really matter if the program estimates the velocity. what you're doing is truing it as you say. regardless if you have perfect muzzle velocity from a chrono, your software isn't going to give solutions as accurately as if you true it up based on what actually happens to the bullet. believe the bullet. if you have a chrono all you have is 1 piece of the puzzle. whereas if you have a good app and weather meter, you have the rest of the pieces and can figure out the missing piece a chrono would supply. if you get a chrono and don't have a way of figuring out "firing solutions", this is what will happen.... oh, sweet, i know my muzzle velocity.... now what?

 

[LastShot300]

doesn't really matter if the program estimates the velocity. what you're doing is truing it as you say. regardless if you have perfect muzzle velocity from a chrono, your software isn't going to give solutions as accurately as if you true it up based on what actually happens to the bullet. believe the bullet. if you have a chrono all you have is 1 piece of the puzzle. whereas if you have a good app and weather meter, you have the rest of the pieces and can figure out the missing piece a chrono would supply. if you get a chrono and don't have a way of figuring out "firing solutions", this is what will happen.... oh, sweet, i know my muzzle velocity.... now what?

Well, not so fast. Having a measured muzzle velocity is a number one priority for a very simple reason, it's the fundamental variable defining drag You are confusing the "believe the bullet" with "believe the software" however, things are not that simple. Your way of doing things will be good for that day, under such conditions after that you are prone to always "true" the software one way or another. Software must be fed with real values, and if the predictions do not match the real world, then there is a long list of things to check before doing this absurd "truing" game.

 

[Bradu]

Chrono without a doubt.

 

[manscout]

Well, not so fast. Having a measured muzzle velocity is a number one priority for a very simple reason, it's the fundamental variable defining drag You are confusing the "believe the bullet" with "believe the software" however, things are not that simple. Your way of doing things will be good for that day, under such conditions after that you are prone to always "true" the software one way or another. Software must be fed with real values, and if the predictions do not match the real world, then there is a long list of things to check before doing this absurd "truing" game.

I understand what you're saying. the software extrapolates the muzzle velocity for the current conditions. however, by truing, you're matching the real world performance of the bullet to your software. after that, new conditions are just applied over the top of it. however, your muzzle velocity changes based on conditions as well. so you're going to have to chrono your gun every time you shoot it to know the "fundamental variable defining drag".... or, you can true it, and let the software guess what the velocity will be in the next condition you shoot in. is this the perfect way of doing it? no. but a kestrel will give more use than a chrono. simply knowing your velocity doesn't mean anything if you can't apply the numbers to figure out what's going to happen to the bullet.

 

[LastShot300]

but a kestrel will give more use than a chrono. simply knowing your velocity doesn't mean anything if you can't apply the numbers to figure out what's going to happen to the bullet.

I concur, a weathermeter is fundamental for LR/ELR work, just saying not to overlook the need for a chrono though. And will never go out without one.

 

[delfuego]

Listen to the overwhelming consensus. Chronograph for sure. You need to know how fast your bullet is going. Buy one or borrow one.
I have the cheapest Kestrel with DA. I use it maybe once a day, on a good day. Lot of really good shooters I know don't have own one.

 

[strikeeagle1]

More objective rationale for selecting an accurate chronograph.

Bryan Litz documents the important role of knowing and reducing your muzzle velocity standard deviation on increasing target hit percentage.

Ref: Accuracy & Precision For Long Range Shooting, pp. 73-74

 

[jsimonh]

Kestrel first. A prodigital chrono is cheap and can get you a pretty good idea on velocity. Upgrade the chrono later. Kestrel w/AB is sweet.

 

[manscout]

More objective rationale for selecting an accurate chronograph.

Bryan Litz documents the important role of knowing and reducing your muzzle velocity standard deviation on increasing target hit percentage.

Ref: Accuracy & Precision For Long Range Shooting, pp. 73-74

you're taking that all way out of context. muzzle velocity changes with conditions. conditions are determined with things such as kestrels. hit percentage goes WAY down when you have no idea what the weather is... and the point of that section in the book is to highlight how important low sd's are.

 

[roggom]

I am going with a Kestral first. I have been shooting for years and do not own a chrono. Then again im mostly shooting steel and hunting. I gather dope and use my kestrel for wind, pressure temp. All of the data is then put into G7 or other online programs to tweak wither my BC or velocity to match actual dope. I would be a fool to say a chrono is useless, as hard numbers are best when making calculations, but getting wrapped up in single digit sd's does not put hits on steel. Getting out, reading wind, shooting in shitty conditions and marksmanship basics gets you there. Yes the Chrono is a useful tool, single digit SD's are important for removing yet another variable. Its just the matter of priority.

 

[Ledzep]

I vote chrono. Atmospheric conditions can change significantly throughout the day or day-to-day. But typically, they don't. The DA where I shoot changes 4000-5000ft or so throughout the year, but 80-90% of the time it's 4000-4500ft DA. Unless there's a front moving in or it's balls cold (or hot), it doesn't deviate much. 27.5ish inHg, and whatever the temp is that day, and low humidity

Magnetospeed chrono data did more to match my ballistic calculator to my actual trajectory than a Kestrel ever did.

 

[LastShot300]

I vote chrono. Atmospheric conditions can change significantly throughout the day or day-to-day. But typically, they don't. The DA where I shoot changes 4000-5000ft or so throughout the year, but 80-90% of the time it's 4000-4500ft DA. Unless there's a front moving in or it's balls cold (or hot), it doesn't deviate much. 27.5ish inHg, and whatever the temp is that day, and low humidity

Magnetospeed chrono data did more to match my ballistic calculator to my actual trajectory than a Kestrel ever did.

Cannot agree more to such statement. Well said.

 

[Fursniper]

I'm in the chrono camp but a very interesting debate. I'm really surprised Frank hasn't jumped in on this, I think it would be interesting regarding his take on this.

 

[Steel head]

Chrono.

 

[strikeeagle1]

........ and the point of that section in the book is to highlight how important low sd's are.

Thank you.
A kestrel does not provide data as to which ammunition choice achieves lowest std. deviations, it just informs / reminds you about data that you have no control over. The chronograph allows one to identify and diminish to the extent possible, the uncertainties in muzzle velocity.

Serenity prayer comes to mind. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

 

[Ledzep]

Run it on jbm. Your car tells you temp, your phone has a barometer. Humidity means little but you can guess on feel. But run a 1 inHg change in pressure and compare it to a 40 fps wrong MV. Mv is going to make you miss worse almost always.

 

[morganlamprecht]

"i havent had a chance to get out and verify my dope..."

a classic favorite used by guys who miss matches because they dont own a GOOD chronograph

 

[roggom]

Sometimes it is easy to get myopic about subjects. Both are useful tools that give real time empirical data. The Chrono with a concentration on internal ballistics will help the shooter tweak their load (or select a proper box load) that is a good match for their rifle. Reducing the SD (if possible) and exact velocity to then enter into a ballistics program. So now your dialed in after a week. Now what? My 260 is pushing a 130 @ 2955 FPS out of a suppressed 20" bbl. OK, I am hitting steel from 200 to 1000 with exact precision in Sept. Well I want to shoot all year long in a State that has four seasons.

I stress the importance of the kestral first in that every session, the shooter should record his dope vs environment. 5mph full value, 20 mph quarter value. Temp and DA and how much did he have to hold/ dial vs the last session. The temp, pressure DA may not change at all during the whole day, but one can look back to see how the atmospheric data affected impact last month/season.

Knowing the exact speed of the projectile is important, but it is no guarantee to put hits on target if the shooter can not read the wind, correct for temperature or altitude.

In the end, this is not about which is better as neither can replace the other, just a matter of what to get first.

 

[TripleBull]

If Gilda Radner was alive, she'd say: "It's always somethin'!"

I went for a rangefinder first, then chrono, then Kestrel - and have zero regrets. Then I was out of money and have still not saved enough to get a target camera, so that's my current system weakness. But I went chrono before Kestrel because I want that data as an anchor. I can get reasonably accurate atmospherics off my phone, and I can do decent ballistics off the phone, so that was part of the mental argument. My phone don't chrono...

 

[LastShot300]

Run it on jbm. Your car tells you temp, your phone has a barometer. Humidity means little but you can guess on feel. But run a 1 inHg change in pressure and compare it to a 40 fps wrong MV. Mv is going to make you miss worse almost always.

You sir are gifted with words

 

[morganlamprecht]

the good news is if you actually understand how this all works its not that hard to figure out

a 2000 DA change, changes my drop @ 600 yds ~0.1 mil and .2-.3 mil @ 1k yds, with my various 6 and 6.5s

i could go anywhere in TX and guess the DA within 2000 with my eyes closed

if youre working out past 800 yds on SMALL targets, then the kestrel will prove its worth pretty quickly...inside that or on larger targets, not so much

 

[LastShot300]

Baro and temp are easy to get, RH easy enough to guess and honestly you only have to be close as pointed out, thats why range cards works so effectively. I do shoot form sea level to near the top the sierra and in the desert all the needed information Station & Temp can be found on a field watch or as other pointed out a iphone (not that the iphone is field worthy).

Wind, in most places, I shoot, sans a ladar or wind array, knowing what the wind looks like on the environment across the board and how it feels at the FFP, is what calling the wind is about. The little impeller has never changed a call I was about to make.

You can save a lot more money with a chrono, getting preliminary drop data and developing loads by shooting less rounds than you can with a Kestrel. Honestly they are slow and have some real world limitations. With a the chronograph you will identify if the load is an issue rather than send rounds out only to find they look great at <300 but are horrible way further out (ie ES). Getting a good velocity is the building blocks for all.. without it range issues (distance issue) and BC adjustments will not be correct or maybe even noticed. You'll never get your curves correct - when starting to venture further out.

I've owned many chrono and several Kestrels including the two newest versions, I use my Chronos, not the Kestrels. If one is having a real hard time with wind, get the windmeter as a learning aid. But remember the wind at the FFP might be the complete wrong call, if a rise is creating a ventri like increase or a wind shadow is doing the opposite.

Get a chrono first if you shoot multiple calibers, re-load, shoot multiple factory round types, or do both. With the money you save, you can get a Kestrel~

*IF* you only shoot one factory round, get the Kestrel..


+1 to ledzep and the others

Wow, this is cool advice

 

[manscout]

definitely wish i had a chrono instead of a ballistics solver in afghanistan. that way, instead of seeing the hold, i could stick the chrono in front of my gun and feel really good about seeing what my muzzle velocity was as i just chucked rounds at whatever.

 

[goosed]

Magnetospeed $180
Kestrel 2500 $150
Ballistic app. $30

Less than $350 brand new to get the job done... eat more ramen and drink less beer get both

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[manscout]

Hey thanks BTW -Anyway, nobody would expect you to use the MS as an actual bayonet.. - but I think issued rounds kinda fall into the... *IF* you only shoot one factory round, get the Kestrel..

Good point though.

lol, i get it. couldn't help but throwing one more thing in to stir the pot..

 

[strikeeagle1]

On the other hand, my Kestrel came home in one piece yesterday whereas my MS3 had an .308 autopsy.

 

[Jimgal62]

Get a magneto v3 and a ballistic app for your phone.

if you are going to shoot past 1000 yards a kestrel for wind and a Laser range finder is needed.

I have both ballistic AE and StrelokPro apps. Both are great. The ergonomics for me on the StrelokPro are better.

 

[Trapshooter12]

The small event that I shot in once a month I have always been in the top three or four people. I could win if everyone else had a bad day.
At the beginning of this year I bought a V3 and a Kestrel with AB. Now I am shooting very well.

I always said they were beating me with technology Wether true or not those two tools up my game.

 

[blbennett1288]

I am using the GeoBallistics weather meter and the GeoBallistics premium app. Total set up is $100. The results are very similar to Kestrel. My next purchase will be a Magnetospeed then upgrade to a Kestrel at some point. Right now though I don't really consider the Kestrel a NEED as GeoBallistics is working very well.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

I feel like a Kestrel would have been better for me this year. I already had a few known good loads that shot well at distance, but had lots of targets that I just barely missed to slightly incorrect calculations, and by placing more faith in the chronographed velocity than the trued ballistic curve from the Applied Ballistics app.

I was able to get a pretty accurate velocity from the AB App by getting a 100 yard zero, and then shooting at 300 yards and getting good measurements. Then I trued the velocity out to 940 yards and had to alter the velocity by about 10 fps.