To PCC or not to PCC...?

[HousePlant]

I went to a Kalashnikov demo event at a local range and was quite happy with the KP-9 and KR-9. It was fired on repeat all day long and was dirty as hell by the time I got it (to the point it just laid black soot deposits on my hands just from touching it) but was accurate and a dream to shoot.

Perhaps that'd be an option?

 

[Steel head]

I went to a Kalashnikov demo event at a local range and was quite happy with the KP-9 and KR-9. It was fired on repeat all day long and was dirty as hell by the time I got it (to the point it just laid black soot deposits on my hands just from touching it) but was accurate and a dream to shoot.

Perhaps that'd be an option?

It looks like a decent option but I’m familiar with the AR controls and very inexperienced wit commie guns.

 

[CK1.0]

There are many, many guys who just automatically look right past the 16” 9mm PCC’s, headed right towards the short barreled versions assuming they will be better… nope.

 

[346ci]

A 16" 9mm is a long bastard for HD use, even more so if using a can. Either caliber or barrel length, you don't want to shoot indoors without a can if possible.

What handguns does he have? A M&P or glock 17-19 with mag extensions would get him 22-24 rounds.

 

[CK1.0]

A 16" 9mm is a long bastard for HD use, even more so if using a can. Either caliber or barrel length, you don't want to shoot indoors without a can if possible.

It’s a fallacy that a 16” gun is too long for HD (unless maybe one is a really small human).

Most cans are 7”-9” long and that doesn’t usually include the muzzle adapter, so a 7”-8” gun with a can on it usually ends up longer than 16” anyways.

Of course we’d all want ear pro indoors with anything… but a list of quieter-to-louder would look like this:

16” 9mm
4”-12” 9mm with a can
556/300 any length with can

The difference between 1st place and 3rd place is HUGE, anything 223/556/300 would be on a complete next level as far as loudness and concussion as compared to the PCC’s.

A 16” 9mm burns all its powder up before the bullet has left the muzzle… that’s why they’re so weirdly quiet, outdoors they’re pretty much “hearing safe”…

Try one sometime, it’s almost freaky how quiet they are, while still packing enough juice to easily smash cinderblocks at 100 yards.

 

[346ci]

I'm using a 12.5" 6.8 with a 5" can, great way to take the edge off. Longer than I want but feel good with the power and being able to move. Got a SP5 begging to be SBR'ed also.

I've played with some long 9mm's, fun during a match, not my choice for HD.

 

[ArchibaldShoebuckle275]

Glock with recover tactical brace

 

[502Chevelle]

I was going to set up a sbr pcc with a can for home defense, and then started thinking what would happen if i wasn't home and my wife pops a home intruder with it. Could open a big can of worms since she isn't a legal owner of the sbr or can and I'm not there. I ended up going the "pistol" route for her, and a nice little JP filled that niche nicely. Now they just need to leave the brace laws alone.

 

[Milo 2.5]

There are many, many guys who just automatically look right past the 16” 9mm PCC’s, headed right towards the short barreled versions assuming they will be better… nope.

Pretty subjective comment. I cannot shoot a collapsed stock or brace, so mine are extended all the time. I even put a folder on one of my MPX's for more extension, in this instance, the shorter barrel is welcome.
A couple winters back, we shot USPSA courses indoors weekly, I alternated between using a full size JP, and a MPX, not one coarse would have it benefited from running a 16" barrel.
Now if it had been outdoors shooting steel, I'd park the MPX.

 

[CK1.0]

Pretty subjective comment. I cannot shoot a collapsed stock or brace, so mine are extended all the time. I even put a folder on one of my MPX's for more extension, in this instance, the shorter barrel is welcome.
A couple winters back, we shot USPSA courses indoors weekly, I alternated between using a full size JP, and a MPX, not one coarse would have it benefited from running a 16" barrel.
Now if it had been outdoors shooting steel, I'd park the MPX.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but in most cases, a 16" gun is plenty short enough.

Shooting any kind of carbine using a modern, squared-off technique, the buttstock should be on one's breast plate, NOT into one's shoulder. Just like with precision rifles, LOP's have trended shorter as technique has evolved. I'm 6'2" with fairly long arms and I think I run my buttstocks maybe 2 clicks out from collapsed... and I have no issues operating inside of shoot houses and even in and out of most vehicles with a 16". So if you weren't always the first one picked for basketball growing up, chances are you might be running your stock longer than you need to.

...and not to be a goofball, but, if you were shooting PCC in USPSA, then you were shooting a 16" or else you weren't shooting USPSA (legally-rules-wise anyways). The USPSA-lawyers in my neck of the woods would never suffer that... unless you were only shooting for fun, but probably not even then lol. ;-)

 

[davsco]

...and not to be a goofball, but, if you were shooting PCC in USPSA, then you were shooting a 16" or else you weren't shooting USPSA (legally-rules-wise anyways). The USPSA-lawyers in my neck of the woods would never suffer that... unless you were only shooting for fun, but probably not even then lol. ;-)

pretty sure SBR's ARE allowed.

 

[CK1.0]

pretty sure SBR's ARE allowed.

That's true.. my bad, forgot. I only know of one dude around my parts that's bothered with going that route, and they don't make a gun short enough to keep him from finishing last lol.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

SBR SP5 Master Race Future Member ... Classic guy knows "the way".....

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

What is the point of a 16" PCC?

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but in most cases, a 16" gun is plenty short enough.

Shooting any kind of carbine using a modern, squared-off technique, the buttstock should be on one's breast plate, NOT into one's shoulder. Just like with precision rifles, LOP's have trended shorter as technique has evolved. I'm 6'2" with fairly long arms and I think I run my buttstocks maybe 2 clicks out from collapsed... and I have no issues operating inside of shoot houses and even in and out of most vehicles with a 16". So if you weren't always the first one picked for basketball growing up, chances are you might be running your stock longer than you need to.

...and not to be a goofball, but, if you were shooting PCC in USPSA, then you were shooting a 16" or else you weren't shooting USPSA (legally-rules-wise anyways). The USPSA-lawyers in my neck of the woods would never suffer that... unless you were only shooting for fun, but probably not even then lol. ;-)

LOL, it was for fun.
I am not sure why you are so adamant about a 16" PCC. I'd bet good money the pct of sales of 16" are relatively small compared to the compacts. I own both and get no points if the OP's buddy buys what I shoot.

 

[Anb618]

I built a QC10 Glock Small Frame 7” 9mm back when QC10 was pretty much the only name in the game for AR pattern PCC’s, and just recently updated the BCM handguard/angle grip and brace. Originally my wife needed something available to her around the house while I worked Mids and she has never been comfortable shooting a pistol. I didn’t want her dealing with the intimidating muzzle blast of a rifle caliber short barrel since we can’t own suppressors here in IL.

This ended up being the perfect compromise of controllable recoil, minimal indoor muzzle blast, and high ammo capacity. I’ve found it’s also a great tool for introducing newer shooters to an AR. Compact and pretty light when running a factory G17 magazine.

(Edit to remove visible S/N)

 

[WindstormSCR]

It looks like a decent option but I’m familiar with the AR controls and very inexperienced wit commie guns.

Honestly it’s not that bad, if you get the “”gas tube”” lever upgrade they make the ergo is essentially the same as an MP5 aside from the safety selector being slightly different.

Personally my vote would be for an Evo 3 simply because you can change so much on it to whatever else you like, and keep it at 16” or compact it down to a K-sized PDW

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Anything over 8" and you go with a full power cartridge.

 

[Steel head]

Anything over 8" and you go with a full power cartridge.

That’s your rules, I have mine.
My 16” PCC gets out more than all my pistols and Small caliber rifles since I built it.

 

[BCP]

A buddy of mine has told me that he's "finally" convinced to get an AR given the times we are living in. After talking about it a while, he decided he wants to get something in 9mm because he does not want to deal with any additional calibers (currently, his only rifle caliber is .308). He has asked for my recommendation (budget is around $1200).

I know that he is not going to mess around with any stamps, so for him, we are looking at rolling the dice on a pistol/brace build, or a full 16" barrel.

Now, all the "experts" like to say that PCCs "don't suck" and the reasons and examples they offer usually revolve around SBRs and suppressors.

In this case, though, I'm having a hard time recommending something that doesn't suck, because in my personal opinion, if one is to bother with a long gun, it damn well better shoot something more powerful than 9x19. However, I don't want to discourage him from exercising that 2A muscle. I just can't fathom why one would want to take the weight/size penalty of a rifle only to dispense pistol-level firepower.

In my mind, the sweet spot for a PCC is a barrel 6 to 9 inches, and with a brace (unless one is inclined to SBR it). Anything outside of that, and I just can't justify the cost of one as a serious duty/self defense rig given other choices (shorter than 6 inch barrel, we're looking at sidearm ballistics; 10 inches and longer, might as well go 5.56).

Am I missing anything here? I get that they are fun to shoot, but so are airsoft guns.

Even still, my current list of recommendations is (in no particular order):
CZ Scorpion Evo
B&T GHM9 (if he's willing to come up a couple hundred)
CMMG Banshee
And I'm thinking about adding the Stribog A3 to the list pending more info.

I have a stribog A1 and an AR pistol, the AR pistol is more useful imho but both are effective plinkers inside 100 yards. The short barreled 223 is loud as fuck you have to double up ear plugs and muffs otherwise it will ring your bell. The stribog is quiet by comparison.

 

[davsco]

What is the point of a 16" PCC?

i'd guess a fair amount of the demand is for uspsa, where 'pistol' pcc's aren't allowed and folks may not want to deal with the SBR process. i started with a 14.5 + 1.5 and then later built (assembled) a SBR for a little more maneuverability. both are way fun!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

After a little practice, most can put rounds on target with a 9mm at twice the speed as an 556/300 AR.

I'll have to disagree. Split times are more trigger dependant than caliber dependant, but assuming a good trigger I've always seen split times at .13-.15 for either for pairs. Once you start dumping 4-6 rounds at a time the increased recoil of PCC starts unsettling things and causing a lot more on target dispersion.

Unrelated, but I like stirring the pot, I shot a match Sunday and an acquaintance brought out his issued real deal select fire H&K MP5. He said they have three to choose from but this one was the most reliable. I don't think it made it more than 30 rounds between failures. I didn't care enough to find out what was wrong with it, but I do know he was using decent quality factory ammo.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Unrelated, but I like stirring the pot, I shot a match Sunday and an acquaintance brought out his issued real deal select fire H&K MP5. He said they have three to choose from but this one was the most reliable. I don't think it made it more than 30 rounds between failures. I didn't care enough to find out what was wrong with it, but I do know he was using decent quality factory ammo.

Was it a K model or the standard length? The MP5 rollers can be replaced with ones cut for a different angle designed for suppressed use, and that can induce malfunctions if running unsuppressed. It’s a great platform but one of the consequences of its elegant design is it requires a little more knowledge than the straight blowback guns to get to the root cause of some issues

 

[Chasingpro]

So I have the scorpion. It is excellent. The 10 lb trigger pull may be something that takes getting used to, but it is otherwise a great choice.

 

[MadDuner]

So I have the scorpion. It is excellent. The 10 lb trigger pull may be something that takes getting used to, but it is otherwise a great choice.

You can fix that....

 

[hafejd30]

So I have the scorpion. It is excellent. The 10 lb trigger pull may be something that takes getting used to, but it is otherwise a great choice.

I put a HB industries $9 spring in mine. 5.5 lbs now

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Was it a K model or the standard length? The MP5 rollers can be replaced with ones cut for a angle designed for suppressed use, and that can induce malfunctions if running unsuppressed. It’s a great platform but one of the consequences of its elegant design is it requires a little more knowledge than the straight blowback guns to get to the root cause of some issues

Standard length. I would assume it's normally used suppressed but was unsuppressed during the match.

 

[CK1.0]

I'll have to disagree. Split times are more trigger dependant than caliber dependant, but assuming a good trigger I've always seen split times at .13-.15 for either for pairs. Once you start dumping 4-6 rounds at a time the increased recoil of PCC starts unsettling things and causing a lot more on target dispersion.

Unrelated, but I like stirring the pot, I shot a match Sunday and an acquaintance brought out his issued real deal select fire H&K MP5. He said they have three to choose from but this one was the most reliable. I don't think it made it more than 30 rounds between failures. I didn't care enough to find out what was wrong with it, but I do know he was using decent quality factory ammo.

I meant more like the concussion/blast from an AR slowing most "casual" shooters down more than they know.

I agree, that many higher volume and/or advanced shooters are just as fast or faster with their AR versus the PCC, but that's also a product of them being desensitized to the concussion/blast due to reps... so that said, newer or less experienced shooters are nearly always faster with a PCC in my experience. YMMV.

...and hell yeah, I agree that a good trigger has a lot to do with it. Which is why we probably shouldn't talk about MP5's.

 

[hlee]

It is counter intuitive, but the felt recoil from the blow back action of most pistol caliber carbines can be more violent than the recoil from a gas operated 5.56.

 

[Justin Petrovich]

My pcc is a 16" juggernaut tactical. I too was on the fence about it. I didn't think a 12" drop at 100 yards was very impressive but I tell you what, it's one of the funniest to take out and most of the time fairly inexpensive. In the end, I'm glad I decided to get one. I have no experience with a shorter barrel but to me 16" is light and maneuverable.

 

[TheGerman]

So Plan A consists of not being effective past ~30 yards and not being effective at all versus body armor?

 

[WindstormSCR]

Standard length. I would assume it's normally used suppressed but was unsuppressed during the match.

that'll do it if the rollers were swapped for the suppressed-use ones.

 

[Mr. F]

Im biased cuz i own a Gen 2 JP GMR 15…

Dead nuts reliable and will hit a torso sized piece of steel at 230yds with ease all day with 115s. out of the 16” barrel.

Some ppl like the “empty feeling “ on sbrs or shrouded non NFA 10” barreled uppers. The 16 got more mass to move around on a course of fire but again its just preference.

A 16 not being useful indoors…no even gonna dignify that with a reply

Glock mags lowers are the way to go on the AR type. A colt mag gun is asking for a headache but i bet someone with a Noveske space gun will fight me on that

Will def pick up a 14.5” to run with a .45 can at some point this year. PCC Perfecto

 

[WindstormSCR]

If someone forced me to build an AR based PCC, my first look would be at the new KE Arms KP9 full polymer lower, give that a carbon fiber handguard and a a CMMG RDB carrier/bolt/barrel and it would be light as fuck.

 

[Steel head]

It is counter intuitive, but the felt recoil from the blow back action of most pistol caliber carbines can be more violent than the recoil from a gas operated 5.56.

I’ll be honest saying that surprised me at first and I was a bit disappointed with it.
But as I shot it more it grew on me quite quickly because of the lack of blast, noise, cheap feeding and quickly became one of my go to favorites.

 

[Chuck86]

Assemble one and learn .
I'd go with a 10' barrel and a SBA 4 brace

 

[hlee]

Assemble one and learn .
I'd go with a 10' barrel and a SBA 4 brace

May be a bit unwieldy for home defense. You may want a tripod or two as well.

 

[Shadow264]

I'm in Kalifornia so no space gun stuff for me , but I've got a 16" Ruger PCC. It gets shot more than any other gun. My kids love it, the wife tolerates it and it has shot everything I've thrown at it. I've tried loading some really light loads just for kicks to see if it would feed. 124's at 800fps, no problem. Also 1800fps from a 90gr XTP and 2300fps from a 65gr Lehigh Defense XD. This is my HD gun because anyone in the family can utilize it with ease. Because it's a take-down, I travel with it in a Haliburton case wherever I go.

 

[Naaman]

May be a bit unwieldy for home defense. You may want a tripod or two as well.

Haha! Nice catch.

 

[hlee]

What’s with full grown men needing tiny light short little barrels for HD or CQB? Comon man! Lift some weights! Dig some holes. Carry some rebar. Hike some hills.
Isn’t there a “Americans men are pussys” thread? Wonder why.
Are all you guys that short?

You and Chuck86 should start a group buy for 10 foot 9mm AR barrels. There's a bunch of hard ass MEN on this board that would love to get in on it...

 

[Makinchips208]

You and Chuck86 should start a group buy for 10 foot 9mm AR barrels. There's a bunch of hard ass MEN on this board that would love to get in on it...

Had to go back and reread. Each ‘ makes a difference. Lol

 

[MadDuner]

What’s with full grown men needing tiny light short little barrels for HD or CQB? Comon man! Lift some weights! Dig some holes. Carry some rebar. Hike some hills.
Isn’t there a “Americans men are pussys” thread? Wonder why.
Are all you guys that short?

CQB through doorways with my 20" HBARs takes a whole bunch more effort than with a SBR....
and it's got nothing to do with weight!

 

[mewillis]

My "serious" PCC is a Colt 11.5 SBR but for loads of fun and a great shooter I bought a PSA PX-9 (below), with the Rugged on it's crazy quiet
and pretty accurate to 50yds.

edited for clarity.....

 

[teslawasframed]

My 2¢...

I'd avoid the Stribog A3, as everyone I know who's run one (a grand total of 3) says they've had lots of teething issues. My A1 has run like a champ, and I'd recommend it if he's got his heart set on a Stribog. Mine came with the flat trigger, it's a dream to shoot.

You can buy a few different lowers for the A1 that can hold an AR trigger group and take those CZ Scorpion mags. A buddy of mine did that and installed a binary trigger...fun times.

I recently finished an AR type 9mm PCC (Colt mags & adapter)...it's only had about 300 rounds through it, but it's been a smooth shooter so far. Recoil impulse is very similar to my Stribog, easy to shoot. I've been told a combined buffer/BCG weight of 22-24oz is the way to get there, not sure if it's gospel or not, but that's the way I built it and it's worked fine. Once it's had a case of ammo through it and I'm happy with a light/optic configuration, I'll use it as a "front seat gun" in my patrol car.

I've only had the chance to put a pair of mags through PSA's AKV, but I liked what I saw of it.

 

[Chasingpro]

My "serious" PCC is a 11.5 SBR but for loads of fun and a great shooter I bought a PSA PX-9, with the Rugged on it's crazy quiet
and pretty accurate to 50yds.
View attachment 7800121

I wouldn’t call that an sbr

 

[Anb618]

I wouldn’t call that an sbr

Doesn’t matter what he calls it.
Only matters what it is.

ATF can’t kick down my door because I refer to my dog’s asshole as a Destructive Device…

 

[hafejd30]

I wouldn’t call that an sbr

I think he’s saying his serious pcc is the 11.5” SBR

The gun pictured id guess is the PSA he refers to in the next line. At least that’s how I’m reading it

 

[BCP]

My 2¢...

I'd avoid the Stribog A3, as everyone I know who's run one (a grand total of 3) says they've had lots of teething issues. My A1 has run like a champ, and I'd recommend it if he's got his heart set on a Stribog. Mine came with the flat trigger, it's a dream to shoot.

Yeah the A1 is the way to go, mine was 720 with a brace. My only real complaint is that the stick mags are a bitch to load all the way.

 

[ut755ln]

Even still, my current list of recommendations is (in no particular order):
CZ Scorpion Evo
B&T GHM9 (if he's willing to come up a couple hundred)
CMMG Banshee
And I'm thinking about adding the Stribog A3 to the list pending more info.

Scorpion - to get it the way I wanted was another couple of hundred bucks. The Stribogs that I have used all sucked, everyone of them had feeding issues. I have had really good luck with the PSA AKV and the Klashnikov USA KP9.

 

[Chuck86]

Assemble one and learn .
I'd go with a 10' barrel and a SBA 4 brace

I shouldn't reply without my