Apologies if already being discussed on SH, Searching thru upcoming CMP auctions, found upcoming auction 7755, interesting rifle but not exactly a mod 3 as defined in these forums, with a Unertl 10x. On the CMP auction home, search by auction #…….
- Thread starter HarryBC
- Start date
So what is fake news about this?
Curious?
Cheers, Sirhr
Curious?
Cheers, Sirhr
Prepare for battle! Bidding war closes in 15 days
Think he is saying the less people know about this the better.
Well it’s not like anyone reads the Vintage section anyway.
And I can’t afford it.
So no harm no foul. Cheers
And I can’t afford it.
So no harm no foul. Cheers
Here is your obligatory "Go be poor somewhere else" ...
ETA: I am a poorz as well..
Best I can do is $13.
I’m in.
I’ll go $14.50.
I’ll go $14.50.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,605
- 17,392
Watching just to feel bad when it sells for a brazillion ducks
Final price may be quite high, similar to the XM3s….I no longer have any contacts at CMP, they all died or are in the same shape the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, but some years ago I was told CMP accepted some shipments of rifles from Crane. The real question is how many of the MK13s they have. The Kalispel case looks unissued, they produced a certificate of authenticity and acquired manuals. I would hope they would include a record as to what units carried this rifle in inventory and what years, sounds like they know.
thats the weirdest AICS chassis i ever saw. WTF is with the description?
I thought it was just me. Doesn’t look like an AICS chassis to me…
It's not. It's a McMillan A3
Yes , it is fishy. It states description as .. it rests in a ( AICS 2.0 , 'folder' ) , and that is a McMillan.
.
The CMP descriptions are often lacking, based on research by a technician who is a Garand expert. I always rely on the actual pictures, which are usually detailed enough to understand what they are selling. I started this thread in hopes the CMP will revise the auction before opening. The rifle being auctioned visually looks more like a MK13 mod 1, but based on my experience with the DOD s/n system, it is recorded as a mod 3, which tracks well with the s/n. The QR code is not present, if the rifle were still in service when last painted the QR code would be visible….one thing for sure, it is a MK13 being released, first one I am aware of…..
Bolt is engraved Mk 13 Mod 3, but barrel is a Mod 0/1 profile and thus can not accept the KAC sound suppressor used on the Mod 3s, so presumably rebarreled at some point by Crane. To me it’s silly to offer a USMC Unertl 10x scope with such a rifle, as a Nav-Spec NF 5.5-22mm was likely the scope used on most of these circa 2006. However, it’s a rare rifle in good shape, and I’m sure it will sell for a hefty price. Wonder is this will be the only one or will more be auctioned-off.
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Random guy, my observations as well. Bildoe308: thanks for the blow up of receiver photo, using an iPhone is not the best observation device in my case…..I would have started this discussion on the CMP forums but they tend to nuke threads as they do not tolerate criticism well. I was hoping both of you would look over the auction and respond, I know Random Guy as done a lot of research on Crane produced rifles…..the rifle being auctioned is what it is…
To me the rifle looks like a display or library rifle. There are zero signs of use. The certificate means almost nothing. The manual can be reprinted by a few people here as it's out in public hands. And the case looks like one of the surplus ones that was sold by a vendor by the dozens not long ago. Essentially, this rifle could have been put together last week. Not saying it was, just saying there are no signs of use or anything.
Yes, it doesn't look fielded after someone painted it. I also agree the case is a NOS surplus item. However, the bolt is properly engraved and matches the serial number. The UID tag is too small to read, but presumably it also matches the rifle's serial number. Only "about 50" of the Mk 13 Mod 3s were made at Crane, after which they went with the Mod 5 which had a simpler/easier attachment process for the KAC sound suppressor.
It's too bad that rifle lost it's original Mk 13 Mod 3 barrel with the unique 'donut' for mounting the suppressor, but as HarryBC stated, it is "what it is"....and I can almost guarantee that no one has a documented Mk 13 Mod 3 in private hands. Here's the Mod 3 barrel that is missing from the CMP auction rifle:
Below is the one and only take-off Mod 3 barrel I have ever seen (It's not mine). Above it is the Lija barrel blank before being profiled/machined.
My old DRMO'd case is probably for a Mk 13 Mod 0/1. The G6394378 s/n on the case has the same 'G" prefix as the CMP auction rifle (G6553999).
...whoever wins that CMP Mk 13 rifle will have a very neat piece of SOCOM history, even if its no longer in its original Mod 3 configuration.
Neat picture someone posted a while back, one of the very few I have seen of the Mod 3 in the field:
It's too bad that rifle lost it's original Mk 13 Mod 3 barrel with the unique 'donut' for mounting the suppressor, but as HarryBC stated, it is "what it is"....and I can almost guarantee that no one has a documented Mk 13 Mod 3 in private hands. Here's the Mod 3 barrel that is missing from the CMP auction rifle:
Below is the one and only take-off Mod 3 barrel I have ever seen (It's not mine). Above it is the Lija barrel blank before being profiled/machined.
My old DRMO'd case is probably for a Mk 13 Mod 0/1. The G6394378 s/n on the case has the same 'G" prefix as the CMP auction rifle (G6553999).
...whoever wins that CMP Mk 13 rifle will have a very neat piece of SOCOM history, even if its no longer in its original Mod 3 configuration.
Neat picture someone posted a while back, one of the very few I have seen of the Mod 3 in the field:
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Take your pick.
The bolt has "3999" on the handle, which matches the last 4 of the rifles' s/n. Mk 13s are known to be barrel burners w/ Mk 248 Mod 0 ammo, and Crane replaced the barrels as needed. Who knows the history of that auction rifle, but it doesn't have the unique Mod 3 barrel anymore. Still, CMP got from Crane this way, and it's the only one I have seen for sale. Most receivers were presumably cut-up with Crane's industrial shredder.
I'll also note that is was painted with scope rings on the rail, and presumably its original scope, too bad they got separated at some point. A real NAV-SPEC NF scope with matching camo job - would add more value to such a rare piece of US military history, and be a rather impressive display piece.
I'll also note that is was painted with scope rings on the rail, and presumably its original scope, too bad they got separated at some point. A real NAV-SPEC NF scope with matching camo job - would add more value to such a rare piece of US military history, and be a rather impressive display piece.
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Interesting rifle, I agree with others here, looks like it hasn't been used since being built and appears to have a fresh spray paint job. Serial is correct range for a mod 3. The case looks new with the plastic protective film still on it, interesting how someone cut out the foam for the rifle, as far as I know the foam was never cut in any of the cases. With the new looking stock, barrel with with no collar, new looking spray job, new case, maybe a cera-coated barrel, and wrong scope, it looks like this was pieced together maybe put together for auction. Also the cheek riser adjustment screw knob is inconsistent with all seen on mk13 stocks it looks like the knobs seen on the mk 15 stocks.
All the markings appear to be correct on the bolt, I wonder if it has the correct tubbs sako extractor? Maybe this rifle was put together as a trophy rifle?
All the markings appear to be correct on the bolt, I wonder if it has the correct tubbs sako extractor? Maybe this rifle was put together as a trophy rifle?
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Unlike the certificate of authenticity that you get with your Genuine Elvis Porcelain Plate set from the Franklin Mint, the cert that you get from the CMP is uncontested provenance.
So that's what the CMP did with the Mk13 stock kit I gave them! 
Just kidding, lol
Just kidding, lol
Actually, I'm not planning on bidding, I've decided to focus on USMC guns and I've actually been selling other stuff out of my collection to make room for the crayon eater shit. The KAC stuff went pretty fast, rare KAC stuff is in huge demand. Hate to see this stuff go, but it is what it is.
Good luck to everyone bidding on this rifle! I hope someone here ends up with it so we can see more photos and a range report!
McMillan A2
Mod 1 is left handed, here's a photo of one with a Mod 0. Extremely rare variant of the Mk13, this is the only Mod 1 pic that I've ever seen.
I knew that; I was just testing you…Mod 1 is left handed, here's a photo of one with a Mod 0. Extremely rare variant of the Mk13, this is the only Mod 1 pic that I've ever seen.
If they marked the auction .300 Creedmoor Magnum they could have brought in an extra $5-6k
...with a Mod 0.
That's the Frank Buck variant, has the compass in the stock.
The Mod 3 nomenclature they use in the listing could be correct. I've talked to Chris Higgins about the Mk13 series pretty extensively and he said that what we're calling the Mod 0 (with MIRS rail and NF scope) is actually a Mod 3! Every time I talk to him about the Mod 0, he calls it the Mod 3 and it gets me tripped up. Even if the proper term for this is the Mod 3, the amount produced would still be incorrect. I had 155 of the Mk13 stock kits and all of them had a serial number and bedding from a receiver, so all of these stocks were complete rifles at some point. This wasn't all of them produced though. Some some original Mk13 stocks are in museums, some are still in the military, some are just being discovered in veteran and armorers collections. So, there might have been close to 200 of these Mod 0's produced. Only a few dozen Mod 3's with the barrel journal were produced and the 52 number provided by the CMP seems a little high, I'd like to know where they got that piece of information.
I'm still going to refer to this variation as a Mod 0, even if the armorers called it the Mod 3. I don't have a manual at hand, but I believe this variant was called the Mod 0 in the manuals. If someone has a copy of the Mk13 manual on hand, please post a photo of the rifle and nomenclature. The Mod 0 marked bolts are also a great indicator of what they military called the rifle. According to Chris and other armorers I've talked to, they didn't come up with the Mk13 designation until the early 2000's and they didn't start laser engraving the bolts until right before they started building Mod 5's. So, the Mod 0 marked bolts didn't appear until the mid 2000's, probably a year or 2 after they started getting the MIRS rails. IIRC, the MIRS rails were invented around 2003/4, so there's a solid decade of Mk13 use before the MIRS were used. These pre-MIRS rail rifle might be the actual Mk13 Mod 0, not the pre-Mk13 we all think of. The water is a little muddy on this one, since it appears the Crane armorers might have had a different name for the rifle.
The paint on the CMP rifle is very odd and it really doesn't match any of the Mk13 stocks or chassis I've had in my possession (155 Mod 0 stocks and 60+ Mod 5 chassis). This is a significant sample size and I bet I've owned more original Mk13 stocks/chassis then anyone else, even the large surplus dealers. I can only think of 1 or 2 Mod 0 stocks that had a similar weird color striped paint job, but it's definitely not normal. All of the painted stocks are unique, but almost all of them follow certain camouflage techniques. There's various types of paint jobs and they can be categorized into groups with other stocks that are painted similar. The paint on the rifle at the CMP auction doesn't really follow any camouflage painting techniques, it looks like they grabbed 3 random colors and gave it stripes. Out of the 200+ original Mk13 stocks/chassis I've owned, maybe 1 or 2 looked sort of like this. Not every stock had a detailed paint job, but they all at least made sense for the surrounding environment they were to be used in. The paint on this rifle is quite odd.
I'm still going to refer to this variation as a Mod 0, even if the armorers called it the Mod 3. I don't have a manual at hand, but I believe this variant was called the Mod 0 in the manuals. If someone has a copy of the Mk13 manual on hand, please post a photo of the rifle and nomenclature. The Mod 0 marked bolts are also a great indicator of what they military called the rifle. According to Chris and other armorers I've talked to, they didn't come up with the Mk13 designation until the early 2000's and they didn't start laser engraving the bolts until right before they started building Mod 5's. So, the Mod 0 marked bolts didn't appear until the mid 2000's, probably a year or 2 after they started getting the MIRS rails. IIRC, the MIRS rails were invented around 2003/4, so there's a solid decade of Mk13 use before the MIRS were used. These pre-MIRS rail rifle might be the actual Mk13 Mod 0, not the pre-Mk13 we all think of. The water is a little muddy on this one, since it appears the Crane armorers might have had a different name for the rifle.
The paint on the CMP rifle is very odd and it really doesn't match any of the Mk13 stocks or chassis I've had in my possession (155 Mod 0 stocks and 60+ Mod 5 chassis). This is a significant sample size and I bet I've owned more original Mk13 stocks/chassis then anyone else, even the large surplus dealers. I can only think of 1 or 2 Mod 0 stocks that had a similar weird color striped paint job, but it's definitely not normal. All of the painted stocks are unique, but almost all of them follow certain camouflage techniques. There's various types of paint jobs and they can be categorized into groups with other stocks that are painted similar. The paint on the rifle at the CMP auction doesn't really follow any camouflage painting techniques, it looks like they grabbed 3 random colors and gave it stripes. Out of the 200+ original Mk13 stocks/chassis I've owned, maybe 1 or 2 looked sort of like this. Not every stock had a detailed paint job, but they all at least made sense for the surrounding environment they were to be used in. The paint on this rifle is quite odd.
Did the Navy ever use Unertls?
Yes, the SEALs used them on their own version of the M40A1, I think those and the FBI ones were in the 2xxx serial number range. However, I don't think they ever had the USMC ones. It's possible (however very unlikely) that they could have acquired a few from the RTE shop. We've never seen any evidence of them using Unertls on Mk13's, literally nothing. The CMP just included it to make a more complete package, since the rifle no longer has it's original NightForce scope on it. Don't be fooled by this auction listing, the scope and rifle DO NOT go together.
Here's my understanding re history:
Initially some 300 WinMag sniper rifles were used by NSW DEVGRU guys in the early 1990s, and a CNC programmer up at Crane developed the unique threaded recoil lug for the rifles. (These were based on the earlier M91 rifles). One Navy vet told me about a left-handed SEAL who had one specifically made for him with a McMillan Baker Special stock that he used back in 1992-93. There was not much "process control" at that time regarding such rifles. With the approval of Mk 248 Mod 0 ammo for combat use, a decision was made to provide a standardized 300 WinMag sniper rifle to all of the SEAL teams. Pat Mitternight said that occurred in 1995. So, circa 1995 to about 2004 they were officially the "300 WinMag Sniper Rifle" and informally called the "M700/300” sniper rifles. . . Below is the description and the NSNs for the early rifles that were issued along with the then-new Mk 248 Mod 0 ammo:
.300 WinMag Sniper Rifle
Weapon Specifications NSN 1005-LL-L99-5364 (RH) 1005-LL-L99-5477 (LH) Model 700 Remington Manufacturer NSWC Crane Caliber .300 WinMag Mechanism type Bolt-action Magazine type Fixed box Ammo capacity 3+1 rounds Rate of fire N/A Weight (empty) 16 lbs 4 oz Overall length 47.5 inches Barrel length 26.5 inches
Ammunition: Mk 248 Mod 0 (A191).
Logistics: In-service Date 1975 Life expectancy 6,000 rounds Technical Manual # NA Operator Manual # SW370-BE-OPI-010
Discussion: The .300 WinMag is a modified Remington model 700 with a Remington trigger, a 1 in 10” twist chrome moly barrel, a McMillan fiberglass stock, a Leupold 10X scope, a Harris bipod, a cleaning rod and guide, and an aluminum case. The rifle is capable of 0.5 MOA accuracy with Mk 248 ammo. Accessories: None
Stock image for this rifle:
****
By 2003/4 various SOCOM units (SF, etc) wanted to use 300 WinMags for missions, esp with the new McCann MIRS rail ordered in early 2004 (initial contract was for 600 rails) that accommodated Night Vision devices for the M24, as well as the "300 WinMag sniper rifle". By then Crane was much more formal re process control. I understand that once Crane received the McCann rails, they rebuilt and re-classified the rifles with the new MIRS rails as the Mk 13 Mod 0/1. Yes, a small number of McCann MIRS rails were made for the left-handed Mod 1/M700 long actions. The addition of the MIRS rails resulted in rifles being given new NSN numbers, but I can't recall the date of when those NSNs were registered, I want to say mid-or-late 2004?). The repair manual is dated December 2005 which is a little bit later. In July 2005 NightForce won its first SOCOM contract, so while the original Mk 13 Mod 0/1s had 10x Leuopolds Mk4s, but by the end of 2005 the 5.5-22x NF scopes were being used.
Concurrently, by 2005-6 there was a demand for a suppressed version, ultimately resulting in the Mk 13 Mod 3. (It's NSN was created on January 30, 2006). Crane had only one suppressor that was robust enough for 300 WinMag muzzle blast, and was readily available to meet the Mission Needs Statement - which were the KAC suppressors made for the Mk 11 Mod 0. The challenge was machining the barrel to fit the Mk 11 suppresser. The picture I showed in post #25 is reportedly the final prototype Mk 13 Mod 3, and this was the rifle used by Crane for acceptance testing with the KAC MK 11 sound suppressor. (It lacked the cheek rest for whatever reason). I have heard that "about 50" of the Mod 3s were built, and that the early Mod 3 had the larger barrel donut (aka 'sleeve attachment') and the later versions had a smaller diameter donut for the suppressor mount, but others may know more.
Digressing for a moment, but in 2004 or so, the Army Rangers also enlisted Crane to make their own specific 300 WinMag, which was finalized in late 2004 and called the Mk 14 Mod 2. It has the green AIC chassis and a special 4.5-14x Leupold FFP scope. That's the high-level as I understand it.
Initially some 300 WinMag sniper rifles were used by NSW DEVGRU guys in the early 1990s, and a CNC programmer up at Crane developed the unique threaded recoil lug for the rifles. (These were based on the earlier M91 rifles). One Navy vet told me about a left-handed SEAL who had one specifically made for him with a McMillan Baker Special stock that he used back in 1992-93. There was not much "process control" at that time regarding such rifles. With the approval of Mk 248 Mod 0 ammo for combat use, a decision was made to provide a standardized 300 WinMag sniper rifle to all of the SEAL teams. Pat Mitternight said that occurred in 1995. So, circa 1995 to about 2004 they were officially the "300 WinMag Sniper Rifle" and informally called the "M700/300” sniper rifles. . . Below is the description and the NSNs for the early rifles that were issued along with the then-new Mk 248 Mod 0 ammo:
.300 WinMag Sniper Rifle
Weapon Specifications NSN 1005-LL-L99-5364 (RH) 1005-LL-L99-5477 (LH) Model 700 Remington Manufacturer NSWC Crane Caliber .300 WinMag Mechanism type Bolt-action Magazine type Fixed box Ammo capacity 3+1 rounds Rate of fire N/A Weight (empty) 16 lbs 4 oz Overall length 47.5 inches Barrel length 26.5 inches
Ammunition: Mk 248 Mod 0 (A191).
Logistics: In-service Date 1975 Life expectancy 6,000 rounds Technical Manual # NA Operator Manual # SW370-BE-OPI-010
Discussion: The .300 WinMag is a modified Remington model 700 with a Remington trigger, a 1 in 10” twist chrome moly barrel, a McMillan fiberglass stock, a Leupold 10X scope, a Harris bipod, a cleaning rod and guide, and an aluminum case. The rifle is capable of 0.5 MOA accuracy with Mk 248 ammo. Accessories: None
Stock image for this rifle:
****
By 2003/4 various SOCOM units (SF, etc) wanted to use 300 WinMags for missions, esp with the new McCann MIRS rail ordered in early 2004 (initial contract was for 600 rails) that accommodated Night Vision devices for the M24, as well as the "300 WinMag sniper rifle". By then Crane was much more formal re process control. I understand that once Crane received the McCann rails, they rebuilt and re-classified the rifles with the new MIRS rails as the Mk 13 Mod 0/1. Yes, a small number of McCann MIRS rails were made for the left-handed Mod 1/M700 long actions. The addition of the MIRS rails resulted in rifles being given new NSN numbers, but I can't recall the date of when those NSNs were registered, I want to say mid-or-late 2004?). The repair manual is dated December 2005 which is a little bit later. In July 2005 NightForce won its first SOCOM contract, so while the original Mk 13 Mod 0/1s had 10x Leuopolds Mk4s, but by the end of 2005 the 5.5-22x NF scopes were being used.
Concurrently, by 2005-6 there was a demand for a suppressed version, ultimately resulting in the Mk 13 Mod 3. (It's NSN was created on January 30, 2006). Crane had only one suppressor that was robust enough for 300 WinMag muzzle blast, and was readily available to meet the Mission Needs Statement - which were the KAC suppressors made for the Mk 11 Mod 0. The challenge was machining the barrel to fit the Mk 11 suppresser. The picture I showed in post #25 is reportedly the final prototype Mk 13 Mod 3, and this was the rifle used by Crane for acceptance testing with the KAC MK 11 sound suppressor. (It lacked the cheek rest for whatever reason). I have heard that "about 50" of the Mod 3s were built, and that the early Mod 3 had the larger barrel donut (aka 'sleeve attachment') and the later versions had a smaller diameter donut for the suppressor mount, but others may know more.
Digressing for a moment, but in 2004 or so, the Army Rangers also enlisted Crane to make their own specific 300 WinMag, which was finalized in late 2004 and called the Mk 14 Mod 2. It has the green AIC chassis and a special 4.5-14x Leupold FFP scope. That's the high-level as I understand it.
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Pat's a great dude.. met him at the All Navy/All Fleet match at Quantico a few years ago. Id love to take a tour at Crane if I ever get the chance.
I actually submitted one yesterday, lol
Ha, great minds think alike! I went ahead and submitted one to the Army this afternoon. That should at least show the its path to the CMP.
I guess he retired a couple years ago. He's probably fed up with horse grooming already. I believe his wife was heavy into horses.
