Great Uncle I Never Knew

[Guest]

My mom was trying to find information about her Uncle Floyd who was shot down over Germany in WWII.

After some digging around, we located a website dedicated to his bomber group.
Amazingly, one of the survivors has left an account of the mission on the site.
It's a bit humbling to read how commonplace bravery and valor were in those days.

http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/crews/crews4/thompson_ch.htm

Charles H. Thompson Crew and "Slightly Dangerous" (left to right)
Standing: D. Leech (TG), C. Nessel (RWG), J. Stern (ROG), J. Cook (BTG), <span style="font-weight: bold">F. Cahall (LWG)</span>, D. Derby (TTE)
Kneeling: E. Jones (NAV), R. McEuen (CP), C. Thompson (P), W. Sprow (BOM)
Photo courtesy of S/Sgt Jack Stern - August 2006



351ST SQDN.. CREW JOINED THE 100TH IN AUGUST 1943, A VERY EARLY REPLACEMENT CREW. THEY WERE FLYING THEIR FIFTH MISSION ON 10 OCT 43. A/C #42-30374 "SLIGHTLY DANGEROUS" MACR # 1023, Micro-fiche #339

This crew was on its fifth mission. Apparently after reaching the I. P. this A/C received a head-on attack by enemy a/c and Edward Jones was severely wounded by a 20mm. Almost simultaneously there was a direct flak hit in the waist and both waist gunners killed or severely wounded. Bail out order given but evidently not all got our before ship exploded. Lt. Sprow shoved Lt. Jones out of nose escape hatch after pulling his rip cord. Several men blown out when plane exploded and their chutes opened. One crewman later reported as follows: "The Germans threw his body (Jones') into a truck transporting us to a jail. He was all shot up and he was white. I presume he had bled to death."

The 100th BG Foundation received the following note from Jack Stern on 1 Aug 2006:
On the crew of Charles H. Thompson you have Donald Leech listed as tail gunner. Actually he was the left waist gunner and Floyd M. Cahall was the tail gunner. You have me listed as Sgt. actually all enlisted men were S/Sgt, so as for more details when our plane reached the I.P. our number 4 engine burst into flames.

We dropped out of formation and dropped our bombs. Our number one engine burst into flames whereupon our pilot Lt Charles H. Thompson sounded the abort signal. Seeing the ball turret gunner still rotating and he would not hear the signal, I grabbed a handfull of casings and my chest chute. I threw the casings on the turret and when he looked up at me, I put on my chest chute and pointed at it and indicated bail out.

I returned to my gun to give him cover and saw him bail out of the waist door. I had not seen the tail gunner and started to throw casings at his position when I saw both waist gunners lying on the floor, and non responsive. A FW-109 seeing us all alone and on fire closed in for a easy kill. I fired first and saw him go down. There was a loud noise and I blacked out. When I came to, I found myself swaying in the air. Our plane had exploded and the force of the explosion had opened my chute. I was immediately surrounded by German soldiers when I landed.

I was reunited with Richard E. Derby and Jesse W. Cook and sent to Stalag 17. We spent 20 months there and were on a 300 mile death march at the end of the war. I would appreciate it if you would send me a corrected listing.

S/Sgt. Jack Stern

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

What great work in finding that. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="text-decoration: line-through">Sorry if I missed it but did your great uncle survive the war Tucker</span></span>?

ETA, After going to the linkI see he was KIA. Sorry. Glad you were able to find some background and add some narrative to his service and his memory.

 

[Guest]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

No, he was KIA on that mission over Munster.

 

[VITA per Veritas]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Very inspiring story.

I wish my grandfather was still around to tell his WW stories.
He died when I was 3. Don't remember much. Heard some stories from GM, but it just wasn't the same.

 

[Guest]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

"Slightly Dangerous" was a movie released earlier that year with Lana Turner (21 at the time), Robert Young....

Apparently, it was a popular name for bombers, because I ran across accounts of several by the same name.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

My great uncle Bill was shot down over Germany. I am waiting for my Pop to send me the link to his stuff since it is online for the bomber group.
Our military history is always great to keep so we will always have it to share. This way we know that the Warrior Spirit may live on through them

 

[JRose]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Very cool find Tucker!

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

457th Bomb Group, Far Left(Biker type), Co-Pilot
Charles William Ford, KIA 2 NOV 1944, Mersberg, Lead Aircraft

Mission Narrative
Mission No. 143
Date - November 02, 1944
Target - Merseberg
The 143 mission of the 457th will be remembered by all who were with the group at that time or after. On Nov 2nd the 8th Airforce committed over 1000 bombers to oil refinery targets in central Germany.The Group was commanded by Major Peresich. The division assembly was as briefed and the group continued toward their target with a total overcast over most of the target area. On this date the 8th had excellent fighter cover and word was give that the Luftwaffe would be up in force also. As the group approached their target IP, it suddenly made a change of direction to the North and left the bomber stream. This later turned out to be a navigation error by the lead PFF plane. The group proceeded further and further away from it's fighter protection and dropped it's bombs on an unknown target. After bombs were dropped the group made a turn to the right in an attempt to return to the protection of the bomber stream and it's fighters. The low squadron fell behind on the turn and, as the turn was completed, was hit from six oclock level by about 40 or 50 FW-190's. The ensuing air battle lasted about 5 minutes but was the Group's fiercest battle of the war. The planes came in 10 abreast and struck the low squadron. White puffs of exploding 20 mm cannon fire filled the sky. The first pass knocked out most of the planes in the 12 plane squadron. The fighters circled and reattacked. Flaming and damaged planes were everywhere and soon the sky was filled with parachutes and exploding planes. The bomber gunners took a heavy toll of German aircraft but the Group lost 9 planes in this encounter. P-51's arrived and engaged the Luftwaffe planes which quickly disappeared into the clouds below. The planes lost by the group were: 42-31923, 42-106998, 43-37532, 43-37556, 43-37766, 43-37782, 43-38309, 43-38561, and 44-6155.


Plane s/n 43-37556, 751st Squadron, piloted by Lt William Dawson, was hit by 20 mm shells in the tail section and the #2 and #3 engines. This was a lead plane with two navigators and an Air Commander flying as copilot and the regular copilot flying in the tail gun position. The aircraft left the formation, climbed sharply and then dove to about 25000 ft. A fire seemed to develop in the tail section and while the pilot held the plane level several parachutes were seen to leave the plane before it blew up. One member of the crew were killed and nine became POW's. Lt Korb reported that McDaniel broke his leg in landing and Sgt Harden was shot in the hand by civilian fire while descending in his parachute.

Him and his buddy Cliff, 1939

Biker, Military; no wonder I am who I am, the spirti runs deep in this family

 

[Minx]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

My great uncle is a badass as well. He's a Major in the Army. He did like 3 tours in Vietnam. Go get the book "No Place To Die."

A whole chunk of it is about my uncle. <3 Love him to pieces, he's one of the smartest guys I've ever met.

 

[Guest]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

What's the relation to you, Switchblade? Is he your father?

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Bill was my great uncle. I first knew about him when my Pop commented that I was a lot like him as a young smart ass Marine in the 80's. Anywhere I went it was a white or black t-shirt, jeans, and engineer boots with a black leather jacket. I never knew why I chose those clothes, but they were 'right'.
Years later, I saw the lower photo on my great aunt Anne's book shelf along with all the rest of them.
The links to the 457th were all on my old comp.
It is our duty to insure that this great generation and what they did live on through our dedication and work to preserve the history so gloriously accounted for



The account of the lead aircraft where Bill was the TG on the Mersberg mission is also in the book,'Black Puff Polly' by Roland Byers as told by Jerome Silverman

 

[Parallax]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...351ST SQDN.. CREW JOINED THE 100TH IN AUGUST 1943, A VERY EARLY REPLACEMENT CREW.</div></div>

The "Bloody Hundredth" was a legendary Group in the 8th AF. They arrived in the UK in Late May 1943, flew their first mission on June 25... and lost their first three aircraft (and 30 men) on it. It got the Bloody Hundredth name for three missions... August 17 - Regensburg, October 8 - Bremen and October 10 - Munster over which the Group had 28 aircraft shot down (280 men). In fact, after the Munster mission only one of the thirteen remaining 100th Group B-17's returned to base.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Only one of the fortresses now remained, Royal Flush, piloted by Robert Rosenthall, which, although seriously damaged and with the number one engine knocked out, successfiully bombed the objective before turning to head for home. The aircraft then became the object of a series of concentrated fighter attacks. The number three engine was hit and had to be feathered. The oxygen system was almost completely destroyed and a rocket went through the right wing, barely missing the gas tank.

The two waist gunners - Loren Darling and John Shaffer, were shot up quite badly. The tail gunner was hit in the butt and the top turret gunner collected a nick between the eyes while he was busy destroying two enemy fighters, which were seen to burst in flames. A third was destroyed by the radio operator. After the assaults had ceased, all moveable equipment was thrown overboard and Rosie brought his bomber home - alone. All that remained of the Hundredth after a day’s air battle. </div></div>

I met and spoke with Robert Rosenthall several times prior to his death. What a character... this guy, just like Robert Morgan pilot of the "Memphis Belle", completed his 25 missions in "Rosies Riviters" and was sent home but extended his tour and flew a total of 53 combat missions (Morgan flew 25 over Germany and another 26 over Japan in B-29's). One of the great things about living/working around Oshkosh,WI was the ability to meet these guys at the EAA Air Adventure over the years as well as some German and Japanese foes.

Crew attrition was terrible, for example, only 4 of the original 38 co-piolts ever completed their 25 missions.

The movie "12 O'Clock High" was about a Squadron in the 100th Group.

A college roomate of mine's father had flown P-51's in Europe and later continued in the Pacific after VE Day in P-38's until burned in a crash landing. He told me he went along on a mission over Germany once with a friend of his who was a bomber pilot in the 8th AF (B-24s of the 91st BG)... said he got a new appreciation of the "bomber jockies" and was never so scared in his life... fly straight and level in a crowded swarm, take no evasive action while your gunners duel it out with swarms of fighters... not to mention heavy flak.

Brave men all... bomber crews were like infantry of the air, but with shorter life expectency... unsung heroes.

 

[Guest]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Great information. Thanks, Parallax!

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

There were many different Air Force(AAC), Army, Marine, Navy, and Merchant Marine units that have so many heroes from WWII. I am always looking over the kids shoulders as they watch History, Military, and Science channels. Once in a while it is so cool to get to hear about a relative's unit in action from WWI, WWII, or Viet Nam.
When some of the more current stuff comes up, I leave the room because some things are better left to bring out only once or twice a year.

The history of all of our warriors who fought is rich with the exploits they had. It is even better when we find them from our own families. Tucker, the more you look deeper into it, the more it comes alive.

 

[Minx]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Well, as long as we're talking about relatives in the military.

Here's my dad, young and stupid. He didn't stay in the Army cause he got himself kicked out. If he stayed in the Army, I probably wouldn't be here. Maybe I'll pick up where he left off or something close to.

Somewhere I've got a picture of my brother too (a Marine.)

 

[Parallax]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The history of all of our warriors who fought is rich with the exploits they had. It is even better when we find them from our own families. Tucker, the more you look deeper into it, the more it comes alive. </div></div>

Switch you are 100% correct. One of our Nations problems is we forget all too soon those who came before us. I have led initiatives in parts of my State to replace Veteran headstones in our Cemetaries. Many, especially those of the Civil War, Spanish American War and WW1 have weathered so as to be unreadable. It is Federal law that replacement stones be provided in such cases... but where are the Veteran's Affairs people to do so ? The first Cemetary I walked through about 10 years ago resulted in about 75 new headstones. Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and a local Funeral Director volunteered to set them. One of the stones was for a Captain who was a well known hero at Gettysburg.... two more for MOH winners. <span style="text-decoration: underline"> Most of these men have relatives who no longer "know" them... or none at all. Every one of us should adopt one of these "Stone Soldiers" and make damn sure they are taken care of. Scour your ancestors and make sure you take care of your own.</span> It's damn embarassing to me that the French and Germans take better care of our dead WW1 and WW2 boys then we do (Arlington excepted).

There is NOTHING more insulting then to be forgotten.

Having been a lifelong Civil War re-enactor and having been to many battlefields in this Country from that period as well as the Revolutionary War and French and Indian Wars... and recently walking the Huertgen Forest, Normandy, St Lo and Sainte-Mère-Église I am always struck by the way the hair on the back of my neck raises, and the emotion of these places. I wasn't there.... but you can damn well "feel" the spirits of those who were.

Pardon the temporary hijack... but it's a subject I'm passionate about...

I think Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, said it best...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"In great deeds something abides. On great fields something stays. Forms change and pass; bodies disappear, but spirits linger, to consecrate ground for the vision-place of souls. And reverent men and women from afar, and generations that know us not and that we know not of, heart-drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them, shall come to this deathless field to ponder and dream; And lo! the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and the power of the vision pass into their souls."

Speaking at the dedication of the Monument to the 20th Maine
October 3, 1889, Gettysburg, PA
</div></div>

 

[Minx]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

You know what, it's funny that you guys are talking about soldiers being "lost" in time because I was telling someone maybe 2 days ago, that I would love to learn a bit about photography. Mostly so I can take pictures of soldiers, that way a memory of them will always live on. If I was a photog, that'd what I'd do. Take pictures of men and women in the miliary, get their names, stories, and put it somewhere where it won't be forgotten.

 

[Parallax]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

Good idea... I was asked a couple of years ago to give a Civil War lecture to a Civil War Rountable group at the Wisconsin Veterans Home in King... which was originally a GAR Home. Lots of history there...

I ended up learning way more then I could get from other forms of research from the old Veterans that attended. Sort of an information swap, Civil War for WW2. I go back frequently now just to visit. Some amazing men and women there... if your State has a Veterans Home it may be a good place to start collecting from the WW2 people before they are all gone.

 

[shooter65]

Re: Great Uncle I Never Knew

My Great Uncle.

Howard J. Edgreen

Birth: Nov. 11, 1917
Death: Feb. 5, 2003

Son of George & Virginia Wilson Edgreen
Spouse of Lucille Leete
US ARMY WW II 1st Lt. 15th Army Air Force 450th Bomb Group 421 Sqd He flew over 50 combat missions as pilot of a B-24.


http://www.450thbg.com/real/roster/e.shtml

 

[JamesC51]

I just found this forum, obviously well after this thread was first started...S/Sgt Jack Stern, referenced in the original post, besides being the bravest most heroic person I've ever known or will ever know, is my grandpa.

Sadly, he passed away about a decade ago, and I miss him terribly. A few years prior, he finally -- after years of us urging him to do so -- wrote his memoirs about the war.

If anyone is a descendant of a crew member of Slightly Dangerous, feel free to reach out and I'd be happy to go through my grandpa's book and provide any relevant information regarding your family member that he may have in there.

 

[JamesC51]

To the original poster / starter of this thread, should you ever come across this (worth a try)...I just dug through my grandpa's memoirs and the following is what I could find about your Great Uncle Floyd:

"Floyd Cahill from Kentucky, was our tail gunner. He told me that he was a former bootlegger, with a specialty in homemade moonshine. One day he received a package from home, that turned out to be a loaf of bread. To our great amusement, when he broke [the loaf of bread] open, there was a bottle of moonshine inside.

Floyd was really a card. He was forever telling jokes, which kept my spirit up. I think I was the only one who enjoyed them all...his influence still affects me, for I have become a joke teller too."

*As a brief side note, this is indeed true. Your Great Uncle Floyd obviously had a profound impact on my Grandpa Jack, who to his dying day was an encyclopedia of jokes (some great, some not so great). He was in no way like that prior to the war or knowing your Great Uncle Floyd.

"October 10, 1943:

It was our 5th and final mission...this date was to be later known as 'Black Thursday'. Our group of sixteen B-17s were made up of planes with different degrees of battle damage...

...My plane, Slightly Dangerous, was flying in the last and lowest position. This location was called the 'Purple Heart Corner' because it was the most vulnerable place in the formation. Not only were we surrounded by flak, but about 150 fighters were attacking from all sides.

When my plane reached the I.P. point, the location at which we were to turn toward our target, our #4 engine suddenly erupted on fire. We were forced to drop out of formation, and were helpless to put out the fire, because the automatic engine fire extinguishers were removed in order to put on more weight in fuel. Needing to lighten the load, we were forced to drop our compliment of bombs. Two minutes later, our #1 engine also caught on fire. At this point, our pilot [Lt. Thompson] realized that he could no longer keep our plane flying. I later learned that eleven other planes in the group were also downed. He [Lt. Thompson] gave the bailout signal...

...On the way to notify the tail gunner, Floyd Cahill, of the situation, I noticed an enemy plane coming toward us. I grabbed my gun and fired a short burst, and with great satisfaction I watched him go down. Up to now, in all the confusion, I did not notice that both waist gunners -- Donald Leach and Charles Ness -- were lying on the floor. With a heavy heart, I knew that they were dead. Then it struck me that I did not see Cahill leave his position. As before, I used shell casings [throwing them in the direction of crew members to get their attention] to alert him, if he was still there...

...Suddenly I heard a loud explosion, and everything went black. When I came to, I was swaying in the wind. When the plane exploded, I was thrown out and my chute automatically opened...

...I knew that Charles and Donald were no longer alive...But, the realization that Floyd must also be dead, strikes a knife in my heart. I will miss him and the joy he brought me when he told his funny jokes..."

To the original poster:
I hope that you see this post, and that this helps you know a little more about your Great Uncle Floyd and what happened that October day.

My mom was trying to find information about her Uncle Floyd who was shot down over Germany in WWII.

After some digging around, we located a website dedicated to his bomber group.
Amazingly, one of the survivors has left an account of the mission on the site.
It's a bit humbling to read how commonplace bravery and valor were in those days.

http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/crews/crews4/thompson_ch.htm

Charles H. Thompson Crew and "Slightly Dangerous" (left to right)
Standing: D. Leech (TG), C. Nessel (RWG), J. Stern (ROG), J. Cook (BTG), <span style="font-weight: bold">F. Cahall (LWG)</span>, D. Derby (TTE)
Kneeling: E. Jones (NAV), R. McEuen (CP), C. Thompson (P), W. Sprow (BOM)
Photo courtesy of S/Sgt Jack Stern - August 2006



351ST SQDN.. CREW JOINED THE 100TH IN AUGUST 1943, A VERY EARLY REPLACEMENT CREW. THEY WERE FLYING THEIR FIFTH MISSION ON 10 OCT 43. A/C #42-30374 "SLIGHTLY DANGEROUS" MACR # 1023, Micro-fiche #339

This crew was on its fifth mission. Apparently after reaching the I. P. this A/C received a head-on attack by enemy a/c and Edward Jones was severely wounded by a 20mm. Almost simultaneously there was a direct flak hit in the waist and both waist gunners killed or severely wounded. Bail out order given but evidently not all got our before ship exploded. Lt. Sprow shoved Lt. Jones out of nose escape hatch after pulling his rip cord. Several men blown out when plane exploded and their chutes opened. One crewman later reported as follows: "The Germans threw his body (Jones') into a truck transporting us to a jail. He was all shot up and he was white. I presume he had bled to death."

The 100th BG Foundation received the following note from Jack Stern on 1 Aug 2006:
On the crew of Charles H. Thompson you have Donald Leech listed as tail gunner. Actually he was the left waist gunner and Floyd M. Cahall was the tail gunner. You have me listed as Sgt. actually all enlisted men were S/Sgt, so as for more details when our plane reached the I.P. our number 4 engine burst into flames.

We dropped out of formation and dropped our bombs. Our number one engine burst into flames whereupon our pilot Lt Charles H. Thompson sounded the abort signal. Seeing the ball turret gunner still rotating and he would not hear the signal, I grabbed a handfull of casings and my chest chute. I threw the casings on the turret and when he looked up at me, I put on my chest chute and pointed at it and indicated bail out.

I returned to my gun to give him cover and saw him bail out of the waist door. I had not seen the tail gunner and started to throw casings at his position when I saw both waist gunners lying on the floor, and non responsive. A FW-109 seeing us all alone and on fire closed in for a easy kill. I fired first and saw him go down. There was a loud noise and I blacked out. When I came to, I found myself swaying in the air. Our plane had exploded and the force of the explosion had opened my chute. I was immediately surrounded by German soldiers when I landed.

I was reunited with Richard E. Derby and Jesse W. Cook and sent to Stalag 17. We spent 20 months there and were on a 300 mile death march at the end of the war. I would appreciate it if you would send me a corrected listing.

S/Sgt. Jack Stern

 

[6.5SH]

That is awesome of you to share that.

 

[MK20]

My grandfather flew the early morning recon and then the lead for the air attack to support the beach landings by the US on Attu Island in the Aleutians in WWII.

He got the DFC for that one.
2 purple hearts and a broken back later thanks to a one engine landing in his P-38 (when counter rotating props aren't, the torque could easily flip the plane over at slow speeds like landing) he left the military.

Ironically, he said he had no pains at all until he died at 92 and could walk just fine. He walked 2 miles a day until he was in his late 80s.

 

[JamesC51]

That is awesome of you to share that.

Thank you for that.

Grandpa Jack never talked about the war, though he proudly had his medals (including his 2 Purple Hearts) displayed on the wall at his house. I'm very grateful that he decided to write his memoir, even if it was 60+ years later. His experience was extremely...intense. I get why he never talked about it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: my grandpa is the bravest person I've ever known, or will ever know.

 

[JamesC51]

My grandfather flew the early morning recon and then the lead for the air attack to support the beach landings by the US on Attu Island in the Aleutians in WWII.

He got the DFC for that one.
2 purple hearts and a broken back later thanks to a one engine landing in his P-38 (when counter rotating props aren't, the torque could easily flip the plane over at slow speeds like landing) he left the military.

Ironically, he said he had no pains at all until he died at 92 and could walk just fine. He walked 2 miles a day until he was in his late 80s.

That's incredible. I'm glad to hear that while alive, your Grandpa was in good shape, and lived to an old age.

What a generation that was...makes you wonder, seeing how this country is going, if THIS crap is what our grandpas fought for.

My Grandpa had a sharp mind until the end. Walked pretty well for a 90+ year old, but with a very slight limp (bayonet stab to the foot on the death march at the end, earning him 1 of his 2 Purple Hearts).

I have his discharge papers hanging in my office and look at them often. He was right around 100 lbs when he was liberated (20 months POW will do that), and had permanent taste loss from the "broth" (basically just warm water) and stale bread that was his daily diet in Stalag 17.

Wow, what a generation that was.

 

[MK20]

The new breed is not that much different than the old. We just have a society that doesn't want to recognize them.

I have a good friend who killed through various means 1800 enemy his last year in Afghanistan. That is the official confirmed number.

They still make em like they used to.

 

[JamesC51]

The new breed is not that much different than the old. We just have a society that doesn't want to recognize them.

I have a good friend who killed through various means 1800 enemy his last year in Afghanistan. That is the official confirmed number.

They still make em like they used to.

Absolutely, wasn't trying to imply that there aren't any left, though undoubtedly far fewer.

What we have way too much of now are snowflakes whose lives are utterly ruined because Starbucks screwed up their Frothy Latte with Oat Milk...just a splash...

Major respect for your good friend!