Best 12.5 barrel?

[EchosGalahad]

Just curious for some recommended 12.5 barrels for the ar platform.

So far leaning towards a criterion core, or a Daniel defense but I’m still very green.

Appreciate it.

 

[Aaros143]

Im having good results with a Rosco 12.5 K9 barrel.

 

[Docsherm]

Just curious for some recommended 12.5 barrels for the ar platform.

So far leaning towards a criterion core, or a Daniel defense but I’m still very green.

Appreciate it.

Stainless Steel or CHF?

 

[the monk]

Criterion Core are great barrels. Also look at:
CHF - Hodge, Centurion Arms, Noveske
Stainless - V7, Noveske,
Cheaper options - Rosco, SOLGW

 

[AXEFORCE6]

I have a 10.5 and a 11.5 noveske barrels. They have been great for me. If you go with their switchblock gas system it will not fit under any of the bigger hand guards I tried. You’ll have to go with their hand guard that has the cutout for it. I went with Adam’s arms piston kits and ran them under aero precisions suppressor hand guards. Just a heads up.

 

[db2000]

Criterion Core are great barrels. Also look at:
CHF - Hodge, Centurion Arms, Noveske
Stainless - V7, Noveske,
Cheaper options - Rosco, SOLGW

^^^ Agree
Also Ballistic Advantage barrels as well for cheaper option that have good accuracy and quality. Primary Arms runs them on sale a lot.

 

[EchosGalahad]

Stainless Steel or CHF?

That’s a great question, I have no idea =| my Daniel defense 14.5 barrel is chf and I’ve been really impressed with it

 

[Docsherm]

The best CHF (accurate and reliable) that I have used is the Noveske CHF 12.5. I have two of them and they are great. They are a bit pricy, but this is where you get what you pay for.

FYI.... I have SEVEN 12.5 ARs...... I believe that it is the best barrel lenght. Very utilitarian.

 

[Docsherm]

Criterion Core are great barrels. Also look at:
CHF - Hodge, Centurion Arms, Noveske
Stainless - V7, Noveske,
Cheaper options - Rosco, SOLGW

Those two I have seen too many reliability issues.... they CAN'T run weak ammo.

If you want a less expensive option- Ballistic Advantage BA Hanson 12.3. I have had one for about 3 years now and have had zero issues.

 

[the monk]

I have one of the OG Hodges. No issues with reliability but only have experience with 2 of them. Mine is perfectly gassed for a high pressure can. Sometimes with crappy steel case it won't lock back but I'm fine with that. Running an A5 with a A5H1.

 

[Docsherm]

I have one of the OG Hodges. No issues with reliability but only have experience with 2 of them. Mine is perfectly gassed for a high pressure can. Sometimes with crappy steel case it won't lock back but I'm fine with that. Running an A5 with a A5H1.

A good Friend of mine that I shoot with at least twice a month had issues with his Hodge 12.5. It ran great with his Surefire Legacy can... but without it is had all kinds of issues with Weak ammo. He uses an A5A2 Buffer.

His Centurion Arms CHF was even worse, he would only shoot it with a can.

 

[the monk]

He may want to try the A5H1. I started with the A5H3 and did the A5H2, I think it runs the best with A5H1

 

[Frank Green]

Why 12.5"? Just curious.

I'm running 11.5" on SBR's.

Box Hornady ammo with 75gr bullets are giving me right around .625" give or take a little at 117 yards and that's with a 3x Acog on them. I'm running 7.5 twist and the 223 Wylde chamber.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Docsherm]

Why 12.5"? Just curious.

I'm running 11.5" on SBR's.

Box Hornady ammo with 75gr bullets are giving me right around .625" give or take a little at 117 yards and that's with a 3x Acog on them. I'm running 7.5 twist and the 223 Wylde chamber.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

12.5 is the shortest barrel length that will optimize the 77gr MK262.

 

[the monk]

Its also the shortest barrel length you can run a K can and not get a ton of flash in my experience. Its kind of the perfect do all length.

 

[WarDamnRockets]

Any experience with the SOA/FCD barrels? They have a 12.5 option. I think they’re OEM’d by Rosco, but they’re mid gas instead of Rosco’s proprietary length.

https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/sgt-of-arms-barrels.html

 

[PBWalsh]

I know Triarc has gotten some hate, but I had very good results with my 12.5 middy from them. Though it was a bit slow with IMI 77 SMKs going at 2404 or so.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just to stir the pot, carbine gas is for transgender folks. Got a couple KAK 12.5 mids because they were cheap and I've been very impressed with them.

 

[EchosGalahad]

Why 12.5"? Just curious.

I'm running 11.5" on SBR's.

Box Hornady ammo with 75gr bullets are giving me right around .625" give or take a little at 117 yards and that's with a 3x Acog on them. I'm running 7.5 twist and the 223 Wylde chamber.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

12.5 seems to be the shortest that beats up the gun the least I've noticed. Still happy accuracy at 300 yards as well.

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Team criterion checking in.

My core's averaging 2625 with black hills 77's

 

[CaptArab]

Just to stir the pot, carbine gas is for transgender folks. Got a couple KAK 12.5 mids because they were cheap and I've been very impressed with them.

Just bought one for like $85 off primary arms and it kicks ass. Mine was dimpled fwiw.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just bought one for like $85 off primary arms and it kicks ass. Mine was dimpled fwiw.

Yup. Surprisingly accurate, reliable and well gassed out of the box, dimpled, a nice profile. I really like it.

 

[PBWalsh]

Just to stir the pot, carbine gas is for transgender folks. Got a couple KAK 12.5 mids because they were cheap and I've been very impressed with them.

Mid length is where its at for 12.5s. Carbines are for 10.5s or less.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Mid length is where its at for 12.5s. Carbines are for 10.5s or less.

Agreed. Mid length for 12.5-14.5". Longer than that and it's intermediate or rifle gas time.

 

[Frank Green]

12.5 is the shortest barrel length that will optimize the 77gr MK262.

Again curious as to where that came from? That's a new one to me and the first I heard of that.

The 77gr sierra at (I'm just randomly picking a velocity here) 2600fps according to my numbers need a min twist of 1-8.06. Even at 2400fps I come up with 1-7.84 twist. Even if I error on the faster side of my calc I still come up with a 7.616 twist at 2400fps.

That ammo is rated at 2750fps (yes that is out of a longer barrel length... think it is 20").

So I'll say if your running a 7.5 twist barrel the barrel length shouldn't make a heal of beans difference.

Bullet length is the driving factor in the twist that is needed to stabilize it. Velocity plays a small part but not as big as some think it does. Just look at my vel./twist calcs above.

If I would handload some 223 ammo and load it up with 77gr bullets...I wouldn't have a concern at all running them out of my 11.5" barreled guns.

 

[Frank Green]

12.5 seems to be the shortest that beats up the gun the least I've noticed. Still happy accuracy at 300 yards as well.

carbine length gas system or a mid length gas system?

Mid length will run cooler but other than that.....?

 

[Docsherm]

Again curious as to where that came from? That's a new one to me and the first I heard of that.

The 77gr sierra at (I'm just randomly picking a velocity here) 2600fps according to my numbers need a min twist of 1-8.06. Even at 2400fps I come up with 1-7.84 twist. Even if I error on the faster side of my calc I still come up with a 7.616 twist at 2400fps.

That ammo is rated at 2750fps (yes that is out of a longer barrel length... think it is 20").

So I'll say if your running a 7.5 twist barrel the barrel length shouldn't make a heal of beans difference.

Bullet length is the driving factor in the twist that is needed to stabilize it. Velocity plays a small part but not as big as some think it does. Just look at my vel./twist calcs above.

If I would handload some 223 ammo and load it up with 77gr bullets...I wouldn't have a concern at all running them out of my 11.5" barreled guns.

John Noveske did testing on that barrel lenght back around 2005ish. It was done for some Army SOF units. The goal of the testing was terminal effect on the "target".


I have both Middy and Carbine Gas 12.5 barrels. The Middy is softer shooting, but the Carbine is much more reliable with all kings of ammo.

 

[Frank Green]

John Noveske did testing on that barrel lenght back around 2005ish. It was done for some Army SOF units. The goal of the testing was terminal effect on the "target".


I have both Middy and Carbine Gas 12.5 barrels. The Middy is softer shooting, but the Carbine is much more reliable with all kings of ammo.

Ok

 

[EchosGalahad]

carbine length gas system or a mid length gas system?

Mid length will run cooler but other than that.....?

From various reviews a trend seemed to lean towards dwell time was better/less violent on a 12.5 vs say a 10.3 or 11.5. Not sure on whether it was carbine or mid.

I’m sure it’s splitting hairs just remember reading it enough times it stuck. But no actual personal evidence.

 

[bfoosh006]

I would go criterion Core, or consider a TRIARC.

 

[346ci]

AR Performance 5.56 CLE 12.5'' 3R 8 twist SBR/Pistol Barrel

AR Performance 5.56 CLE SBR/Pistol is a light weight profile with a slightly different taper to stiffen the barrel. Chambered in 556 CLE, shoots 223 and 556 ammo and is more accurate that the 223 Wylde when loaded to mag length

www.blackstonearms.com

ARP, mid gas FTW.

 

[hitman]

I have 2 12.5 Triarc uppers and they are very soft shooting and groups amazing with 75 gr, under .75 moa 5 rd groups. And I agree, the 12.5s became my favorite. Have an Lmt Specwar with Lmt barrel. But that one is no where as close to the triarc accuracy. Hope that helps.

 

[Constructor]

Blackstone Arms sells ARP 5R and 3R 4150 11595-E Nitride treated mid gas barrels that run 60-90fps faster than most, that makes them 30-60fps faster than most 14.5" barrels including the BCMs, also more accurate. He'll have lightweight 14.5s in a month or two.

IMI M193 ammo- BCM 14.5 ave 2956fps
12.5" 5R ave 3030fps

 

[the monk]

A carbine 12.5 is one of the most mechanically reliable barrel to gas systems you can get. Excellent dwell time, you can tune the gas to what you want, large envelope of operation, and is super soft shooting for an SBR. Even better with the A5 system.

 

[ELCO82]

From various reviews a trend seemed to lean towards dwell time was better/less violent on a 12.5 vs say a 10.3 or 11.5. Not sure on whether it was carbine or mid.

I’m sure it’s splitting hairs just remember reading it enough times it stuck. But no actual personal evidence.

The 11.5 fixes the dwell time issue everyone refers to on the 10.3. I like an 11.5 sbr. I do have some 12.5's and my favorite barrel is my Daniel defense. I don't have a criterion in 12.5 but I do in 10.5 and that upper shoots so well I refuse to take it apart even though it's moot next to my mk18.

 

[S197]

Just curious for some recommended 12.5 barrels for the ar platform.

So far leaning towards a criterion core, or a Daniel defense but I’m still very green.

Appreciate it.

It depends on how you plan to use it?

 

[91Eunozs]

IMHO 12.5” is about the perfect compromise for a ‘do everything’ AR chambered in 5.56…. Short enough for CQB work, but still long enough to get a nice sight radius, and more easily stabilize heavier (longer) bullets with 1:7ish twist rates.

I have a couple 10.5” and one 11.5 inch, as well as a couple 14.5” and 16” in 5.56…but my favorites are the 12.5” uppers.

Have two 12.5” BCM and one 12.5” DD barrels on my work horse rifles usually kept in scabbards on side by sides, etc. for general pest and varmint eradication, but the best shooting one by far was from a company called Micro MOA.

I think they’re out of business now, but they built a great barrel. Great customer service too; they really took care of me when I screwed up the barrel extension due to my own stupidity when I was just getting started in the AR game. Still, they make (made) an awesome product. Will miss this one when it’s shot out.

Had a temp clamp-on gas block in this pic, but good comparison here to my son’s 10.5” upper on his SBR (we have several SBR’d lowers):

Recently picked up another 12.5” barrel with an integrated gas block from a company called HM Defense; they call it a monobloc barrel. Put it on an upper for a rifle I built to test parts reliability over the next couple years…figure it’s one less thing to break in case we ever get to the point where I can grab only one rifle that has to last forever.

Only have a couple hundred rounds through it so far, but no complaints. Good, but nothing extraordinary; a good shooting barrel that’s accurate enough for my needs. Maybe MOA or slightly better on a good day with great ammo; on par with my DD and BCM barrels.

 

[Frank Green]

AR Performance 5.56 CLE 12.5'' 3R 8 twist SBR/Pistol Barrel

AR Performance 5.56 CLE SBR/Pistol is a light weight profile with a slightly different taper to stiffen the barrel. Chambered in 556 CLE, shoots 223 and 556 ammo and is more accurate that the 223 Wylde when loaded to mag length

www.blackstonearms.com

ARP, mid gas FTW.

Blackstone Arms sells ARP 5R and 3R 4150 11595-E Nitride treated mid gas barrels that run 60-90fps faster than most, that makes them 30-60fps faster than most 14.5" barrels including the BCMs, also more accurate. He'll have lightweight 14.5s in a month or two.

IMI M193 ammo- BCM 14.5 ave 2956fps
12.5" 5R ave 3030fps

I'd like to see a apples to apples comparison to validate that faster velocity claim....

But in order to do that....

You need to know what size they are making the bore and grooves on the barrels to. That's going to be more critical than anything else. If they are making a tight bore barrel that will drive up pressures which in turns drives up velocity most of the time.

Melonite/nitriding the barrels unless they are really building it up (which shouldn't be done) won't affect anything in the long run. We've made plenty of ammunition test barrels for a ammo maker. Biggest thing they always see is for the first 250 rounds give or take some it played hell with pressures until it was worn out. Barrel not shot out but the nitriding would burn off the surface if you will. Nitriding properly done should only change the bore approx. .0001" or so. I have barrel prints where they call out up to a .001" build up. Not a .0001" but a full .001".

 

[Ernest 5.56]

I'd like to see a apples to apples comparison to validate that faster velocity claim....

But in order to do that....

You need to know what size they are making the bore and grooves on the barrels to. That's going to be more critical than anything else. If they are making a tight bore barrel that will drive up pressures which in turns drives up velocity most of the time.

Melonite/nitriding the barrels unless they are really building it up (which shouldn't be done) won't affect anything in the long run. We've made plenty of ammunition test barrels for a ammo maker. Biggest thing they always see is for the first 250 rounds give or take some it played hell with pressures until it was worn out. Barrel not shot out but the nitriding would burn off the surface if you will. Nitriding properly done should only change the bore approx. .0001" or so. I have barrel prints where they call out up to a .001" build up. Not a .0001" but a full .001".

Would there be a significant velocity difference between a barrel made with a new reamer and the last barrel made before the reamer was discarded?

 

[Frank Green]

Would there be a significant velocity difference between a barrel made with a new reamer and the last barrel made before the reamer was discarded?

Totally possible.... what happens is as you use a chamber reamer it will get to a point in time that as it wears if you will...it will start to cut undersize. First thing that goes is the throat.

Changing the chamber/reamer dimensions can have an affect on pressures and velocities as well.

When we make ammunition test barrels for the gov't we have to measure the chamber in 10 different spots. There are two dimensions on the 5.56 chambers that we only are allowed a total of .0008" tolerance.

To give you some decent numbers on bore and groove size tolerances.... a bore .0005" undersize with a groove size that is also .0005" will drive up the chamber pressures approx. 8k to 10k psi and will drive up velocities approx. +150fps.

On a bolt gun you might not see heavy bolt lift etc...or other signs of pressure but it is there.

Another example... this was with 300BO to be specific. The reamer cut .0001" to .0002" undersize on the throat. The bullets for the spec ammo where at the max o.d. tolerance. That +.0001"/.0002" undersize drove up pressures 6k psi and drove up velocities around 70fps.

The numbers above are from actual ammunition pressure test barrels. Hard data in controlled conditions and not some dudes bolt gun or AR etc....

 

[Constructor]

I'd like to see a apples to apples comparison to validate that faster velocity claim....

But in order to do that....

You need to know what size they are making the bore and grooves on the barrels to. That's going to be more critical than anything else. If they are making a tight bore barrel that will drive up pressures which in turns drives up velocity most of the time.

Melonite/nitriding the barrels unless they are really building it up (which shouldn't be done) won't affect anything in the long run. We've made plenty of ammunition test barrels for a ammo maker. Biggest thing they always see is for the first 250 rounds give or take some it played hell with pressures until it was worn out. Barrel not shot out but the nitriding would burn off the surface if you will. Nitriding properly done should only change the bore approx. .0001" or so. I have barrel prints where they call out up to a .001" build up. Not a .0001" but a full .001".

The barrels are button rifled and no build up called out, after a good cleaning the bore black is almost transparent. The barrels are on the market, have been since 2008 and they have always been faster than the other barrels on the market. Apples to apples? They are AR barrels being sold on the open market and they are faster.
The first 2 batches were chrome lined, after that Melonite treated. In 2008 Bison, Cardinal Armory and myself were the only ones making 6.8 barrels with 11 twist and the higher performance chamber that allowed us to load 110gr 6.8s 150-200fps faster than factory ammo.
When I got involved with the 6.8 I was determined to show everyone that the performance Holland, Murray and Lawton said was possible really was IF the barrels were made correctly. Other barrel makers were using 6 groove with apx a 40:60 land to groove ratio, some 50:50. I tested different twist rates, 4 groove, polygonal, 5R and 3 groove rifling along with different chamber designs during 2007 and 2008. In the end I settled on 11.25 twist 5R(my button design) with my chamber design. I can push 110gr bullets to 2800 fps out of those 16" barrels with off the shelf powder. No cratered or flattened primers, pressure around 58K.
For years I used Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Rock a few Douglas, Hart, Shilen, and Pac Nor but these are $200 button rifled AR barrels. I'm sure specs could be changed to increase velocity on the other barrels but so far they are slower, maybe it's not important to them.
ETA- As for the 5.56 barrels around 2010 I purchased 12 barrels from other makers and tested them, 11 were not impressive at all. 1 was more accurate and faster. I took all of them back to the shop and started inspecting, during that I found a .219 inspection pin would slide in the muzzle but stop apx 3/4" in on 11 of the barrels. I was pretty sure I knew why the pins stopped 3/4" in. The barrel that was tight (.218) all the way through was a 410 SS. I called Steve and said I have an idea about what's causing the problem, told him and he said I was correct and they had one extra step in their process to control that. I used that info on the barrels I produced, didn't really effect the 6.8 barrels with 5/8-24 thread.

 

[BCP]

Midway has the 12.5" noveske stainless with pinned gas block for 350$ right now.

 

[MSTN]

You said "best", right?

A Craddock Precision Bartlein.

 

[Frank Green]

The barrels are button rifled and no build up called out, after a good cleaning the bore black is almost transparent. The barrels are on the market, have been since 2008 and they have always been faster than the other barrels on the market. Apples to apples? They are AR barrels being sold on the open market and they are faster.
The first 2 batches were chrome lined, after that Melonite treated. In 2008 Bison, Cardinal Armory and myself were the only ones making 6.8 barrels with 11 twist and the higher performance chamber that allowed us to load 110gr 6.8s 150-200fps faster than factory ammo.
When I got involved with the 6.8 I was determined to show everyone that the performance Holland, Murray and Lawton said was possible really was IF the barrels were made correctly. Other barrel makers were using 6 groove with apx a 40:60 land to groove ratio, some 50:50. I tested different twist rates, 4 groove, polygonal, 5R and 3 groove rifling along with different chamber designs during 2007 and 2008. In the end I settled on 11.25 twist 5R(my button design) with my chamber design. I can push 110gr bullets to 2800 fps out of those 16" barrels with off the shelf powder. No cratered or flattened primers, pressure around 58K.
For years I used Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Rock a few Douglas, Hart, Shilen, and Pac Nor but these are $200 button rifled AR barrels. I'm sure specs could be changed to increase velocity on the other barrels but so far they are slower, maybe it's not important to them.
ETA- As for the 5.56 barrels around 2010 I purchased 12 barrels from other makers and tested them, 11 were not impressive at all. 1 was more accurate and faster. I took all of them back to the shop and started inspecting, during that I found a .219 inspection pin would slide in the muzzle but stop apx 3/4" in on 11 of the barrels. I was pretty sure I knew why the pins stopped 3/4" in. The barrel that was tight (.218) all the way through was a 410 SS. I called Steve and said I have an idea about what's causing the problem, told him and he said I was correct and they had one extra step in their process to control that. I used that info on the barrels I produced, didn't really effect the 6.8 barrels with 5/8-24 thread.

When I say apples to apples what I mean and to be specific.

Take brand X, brand z etc... barrels.

You have to measure the bore size and groove size of each to make sure they are with in a given tolerance/spec.... so lets say .2190" on the bore and .2240" on the groove and a tolerance for each at min spec. +.0005".

You can have barrels with nitriding and not nitride but the bore and grooves have to be to the same spec/tolerance.

Same chamber needs to be used as well.

Same ammo is used from the same lot as well needs to be used and fired in the same conditions.

Then run your test and get the data.

Without knowing the bore and groove size of each barrel and the same chamber reamer being used... You don't have an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Frank Green]

Constructor..... I'm not poking at you in a bad way etc....

Just without knowing the actual bore and groove dimensions of each barrel the data becomes skewed.

 

[Frank Green]

Here is a suggestion....

Send me a barrel you consider fast and one that you consider slow. Same chamber reamer needs to have been used to chamber the barrels.

As I think about it even more...if we are to do this.... I would need the complete upper. I'll shoot them thru my chronograph (Oehler and a Labradar) and verify the velocities.

Then I'll measure the bore and grooves of each and see what the dimensions are. Otherwise we are all just guessing.

 

[JohnCarter17]

Constructor..... I'm not poking at you in a bad way etc....

Just without knowing the actual bore and groove dimensions of each barrel the data becomes skewed.

Or the performance is measured by the chronograph and accuracy. If others report consistent numbers then that is empirical data.

If you need more to satisfy your criteria, then that's on you to conduct the test to your specifications.

 

[ELCO82]

People mansplaining to Frank Green about empirical data on barrels.....the Hide is hilarious sometimes

 

[Frank Green]

Totally by accident/timing that this thread came up and today I got a phone call to quote gas gun barrels (can't go into the whole detail). Last barrels we made the company where out of c.m. steel and they nitride them etc.... they want to get away from the nitride finish. They see the same thing as the ammo maker has seen with nitride barrels. When the barrel is new and again say for the first 250ish rounds pressure is up with velocity.

So back to earlier posts... that is another variable. If one brand of barrel being shot is nitride finished and the others are not... again your not doing apples and apples.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I’ve had good luck with Rainier arms 12.5 mid gas mountain fluted barrel, with or without suppressor.