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Powder humidity changes inside loaded cartridges

secondofangle2

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  • Jul 3, 2017
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    Ever since I have been measuring powder humidity, I have learned how big a variable it can be in terms of velocity. I have been controlling my powder humidity using 49% humidor humidity packs in my powder kegs. I monitor each keg with a kestrel D2 drop before I load with it to see if it has drifted drastically from 50%. I also measure new containers on arrival from powder valley and they are almost all between 51% and 54%.

    Available threads suggest that even if you load the powder with a certain humidity, changes in ambient conditions and especially flying with the ammo and subjecting it to different ambient pressures could result in gain or loss of humidity inside loaded cartridges. This makes sense theoretically but it does not tell you how long your ammo would need to be subjected to different atmospheric conditions to gain or lose a significant amount of humidity. By humidity here I mean water content, and I do not intend to engage in semantic disputes about the specific definitions.

    In order to test this possibility, last week, in my reloading area of my garage, which is between 80 and 100°F with 21% humidity, I filled a 375 Cheytac cartridge with 150 or so grains of water. it was a Petersen case. They have been shot about seven times so the pocket was tight but not as tight as new. I put in a new Primer. I then loaded, with about 3/1000 of neck tension, a 390 atip bullet that had been lubricated with imperial wax on the boat tail and the area just in front of that. I did that on purpose because I figured that wax would be impermeable to water escaping. I also routinely do that on my high caliber cartridges, but not always sometimes I use graphite lube.

    Within several hours, the cartridge had lost about one grain of weight. This is on an FX scale accurate to 0.02 grains. I thought wow! the water is escaping fast!, but it must have been the water that had not yet dried on the exterior of the case, despite my wiping it down. After the first couple hours, the wait settled out at 910.72 grains.

    For the past five or six days, I have documented in my notes, the weight of the cartridge, and it has changed less than 0.02 grains. That is, after the exterior water evaporated off the case, I have lost almost 0, or at least an unmeasurable amount of the water that I loaded into the case.

    I wonder if Brian Litz has done something like this or if any others have comments.
     
    Perhaps add some ziploc freezer bags to your testing. I'm not grasping where the water came from on the case exterior though.

    I've been using the 49% packs as well and a pair of Govee sensors ($30 for 2 on Amazon). I'll put one sensor in my powder hopper and another in whichever jug of powder I'm using. A humidor pack goes in the hopper and another in any jug of powder that is open. So far have only had to replace the packs in the hopper as they dry out as they get the most exposure.
     
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    ^in relation to the above comment, the water on the exterior of the case came from spilling water while filling the case with water and wiping off the "dome" of water from slightly over-filling it. It is excess water from the process of filling it.

    But back to OP: I want to know if powder in loaded ammunition loses moisture content under usual conditions.

    If I can determine that it does, that might lead me to either steal my loaded ammunition into a humidity control environment, or as others have suggested to allow my powder to equilibrate to the ambient humidity of my environment prior to loading the shells, so as to obviate that concern
     
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    as others have suggested to allow my powder to equilibrate to the ambient humidity of my environment prior to loading the shells, so as to obviate that concern
    Not following how allowing ammo to change obviates the concern?
    That would just obviate the need to have new DOPE, which also obviates taking speed data and possibly needing to re-zero.

    Unless they meant keeping the condition of the loading, testing, and then shooting all the same? That isn't easy to anticipate or control.

    I think your test will show you can seal it well enough the way you are running, and that you won't end up needing to re-test your ammo after a change due to short term travel or where the ammo can be protected till used. Time will tell. Let's see how it goes.

    To be helpful, I will point out some things about gas leaks, Knudsen Cells, etc..
    There is a great difference in the rate of the leak between a fluid in the leak or dry gas in the leak. Roughly a factor of eight or more depending on the details.
    So, by using a liquid like a grease in the "crack", your leak will be almost a magnitude slower than if that same joint was "dry".

    In physics labs, when we want to quickly stop or reduce a vacuum leak at a joint, we use grease and can get down below 10^-6 Torr levels with little trouble.

    Military specifications for ammo are "sealed" at the necks, but also at the primers. When tested well beyond the requirements of the specs, I found the sealing was very effective at keeping the propellants from humidity changes. However...
    What I don't like about the sealant in the necks, is that it doesn't help with accuracy or precision at the level we are after here, and it is one more thing that fouls the barrel.
    In so many words, the primer sealant concept might be helpful but the use of anything like a pitch sealant on the necks is nothing I would want for high performance ammo. It is fine for "ball ammo".

    The best advice I can give, is to keep critical ammo protected the best you can till it needs to be used. Sealed ammo cans or barrier film bags will maintain the humidity inside the ammo.

    How long will your test run? Will you try and expose to hot/cold/dry/wet extremes or just track it stored at home?

    Good Luck with the testing, in for the report.
     
    This has me wondering how I should store my powder and develop future loads. Do I let my powder achieve an equilibrium with the extremely dry environment I’m in or do I take steps to store and keep it at 40-50%?
     
    This has me wondering how I should store my powder and develop future loads. Do I let my powder achieve an equilibrium with the extremely dry environment I’m in or do I take steps to store and keep it at 40-50%?
    Given the burn rate will increase you may find yourself in an un-safe condition.

    It literally hit 1% RH in my garage this weekend. A sensor stays in my hopper, the humidor pack that was changed about 2 weeks ago was only able to maintain to 30% and is now hard and used up.

    The jug kept indoors shows 54% RH.
     
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    Given the burn rate will increase you may find yourself in an un-safe condition.

    It literally hit 1% RH in my garage this weekend. A sensor stays in my hopper, the humidor pack that was changed about 2 weeks ago was only able to maintain to 30% and is now hard and used up.

    The jug kept indoors shows 54% RH.
    So let my powder achieve equilibrium with my dry environment, then develop loads?
     
    So let my powder achieve equilibrium with my dry environment, then develop loads?
    This is exactly my dilemma and I have thought a lot about it. It doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to intentionally select the slowest burning powder such as RL50 or H50 BMG, and then dry it out, thus increasing its burn rate to something closer to N570 (just a guess?) but who really knows?

    It also would give you pause when trying to adopt another’s recommended load or a book load, if you had intentionally taken actions to remove humidity, increase energy density, and accelerate burn rate.
     
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    Given the burn rate will increase you may find yourself in an un-safe condition.

    It literally hit 1% RH in my garage this weekend. A sensor stays in my hopper, the humidor pack that was changed about 2 weeks ago was only able to maintain to 30% and is now hard and used up.

    The jug kept indoors shows 54% RH.
    How are you sealing your container and what container is it that is losing humidity so rapidly? Are there also temperature fluctuations? What sensor do you leave in your hopper? Is it a kestrel D2?
     
    So let my powder achieve equilibrium with my dry environment, then develop loads?
    I just explained am doing the opposite. In an extremely dry environment it is going to lead to danger.
     
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    How are you sealing your container and what container is it that is losing humidity so rapidly? Are there also temperature fluctuations? What sensor do you leave in your hopper? Is it a kestrel D2?
    The one with the loss is the powder hopper on my RCBS Chargemaster. The temperature in the garage does fluctuate as it is not climate controlled.

    The sensors are these Govee bluetooth units:

    Code:
    https://www.amazon.com/Govee-Hygrometer-Thermometer-Notification-Connecting/dp/B097HF322L
     
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    I just explained am doing the opposite. In an extremely dry environment it is going to lead to danger.
    I’m already in an extremely hot and dry environment to begin with. So is everything within a 100 mile radius of me. So in my situation I have to wonder if having my powder being at the same humidity level as the environment around me would be better?

    Are you in a dry environment as well?
     
    I’m already in an extremely hot and dry environment to begin with. So is everything within a 100 mile radius of me. So in my situation I have to wonder if having my powder being at the same humidity level as the environment around me would be better?

    Are you in a dry environment as well?
    Yes, extremely dry.

    Until 5 years ago all my reloading was done indoors and with climate control. Any humidity changes were minor and ammo was stored in ziplocs or slip boxes in G.I. ammo cans so wasn't really changing over time. Since reloading now being done in the garage I started noticing velocity increases depending when the task was done. This is what got me started down this rabbit hole.

    The guy from Ammolytics had the opposite experience, sudden decreases in performance that coincided with ammo being loaded during periods of high humidity.
     
    Yes, extremely dry.

    Until 5 years ago all my reloading was done indoors and with climate control. Any humidity changes were minor and ammo was stored in ziplocs or slip boxes in G.I. ammo cans so wasn't really changing over time. Since reloading now being done in the garage I started noticing velocity increases depending when the task was done. This is what got me started down this rabbit hole.

    The guy from Ammolytics had the opposite experience, sudden decreases in performance that coincided with ammo being loaded during periods of high humidity.
    I do all my loading indoors and store all my components indoors as well. I load maximum of 24 hours prior to shooting but most times 5 hours prior.

    I had a recent similar experience as the guy from ammolytics with brand new (still humid) powder.
     
    I once accidentally loaded my 223 subsonic load to a washed case still wet. I use Unique for case neck and round. The powder would not shake inside. I put those 2 rounds on a radiator set to maybe 120F for quite some time and when I returned the powder was shaking just like other rounds I loaded and also later on made the same sound, meaning the excess water escaped and did not condense back after cooling down. I have them somewhere, but I doubt the primer goes off anymore.

    But hear this:
    You filling that case full of water is not very clinical because powder in a case amounts only few grains of water. Exposed in the sun (carried on the chest) ammo will surely increase in temperature and as water is heated, the water vapour increases pressure drastically compared to a case indoors, where water vapor is ofc spontaneously created but it also condenses back until equilibrium of moisture of that certain temperature degree is reached.

    After the temperature point where the water condensation is exceeded, you should be able to see a loss of water.

    It is cool you have a good scale for this, I have thought of test like this but my scale is not reliable enough to make solid data. It rather be more like a test of how much my scale drifts..
     
    If your goal is to maintain your powder at some desired humidity, for example 50%, you will be required to maintain control at every stage, from after receiving your shipment of powder through transporting the loaded ammo and shooting it. Stopping the transport of water across a boundary is virtually impossible if the difference in concentration of water across the boundary is high enough and/or if the storage time is long enough. The water molecule is small, so it can cross what are supposedly waterproof boundaries, seals, etc., and the thermodynamic drive for equilibrium is persistent. Thus, you have to maintain the desired humidity across your ammo's universe.

    Here are a couple of examples:

    -Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is hygroscopic. It's difficult to manufacture water-free ethanol but once you've produced the driest ethanol possible, you can't just store is in a container and expect it to maintain static dryness. Put some dry ethanol in a dozen ampoules in a lab space that is maintained at low humidity and seal the ampoules. Then store them in a room that's held at 50% humidity. Pop open an ampoule every month or two and analyze it for water content and you can watch the water level rise asymptotically until it eventually gets to 50%. The same thing happens if you store the ethanol in an "airtight" stainless steel vessel.

    -Some analytical instrumentation can detect and measure water quantitatively, such as an accurate mass mass spectrometer. These instruments operate at reasonably high vacuum levels, so the background of water you see when you have not intentionally added water to the system is pretty low. If you live in a place where the humidity changes drastically over the seasons, you can see the changes in water background that correlates with ambient humidity. Even in a sealed instrument that has no samples introduced, that background varies with humidity. The water penetrates the stainless steel structure of the instrument, the seals, etc.

    The primer-to-brass junction is an obvious point of entry, as is the case mouth-to-projectile junction, but if you could make them water tight, the water would eventually penetrate the brass. To be realistic, I wouldn't worry about the time it takes to drive to a local range and shoot for practice or to compete. I'd worry more about keeping the temperature of the ammo as constant as possible, because heating and cooling cycles will add to the driving force to get water into the ammo. Plus you know you want to keep your ammo temp steady anyway, since even the most temp-stable powder has some temperature dependence if the delta T is high enough. I have been looking at my options for improving the humidity control of my reloading room, which as also where I store my ammo. That's probably a worthwhile investment.
     
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    In theory, theory, and practice are the same. In theory.

    I understand vapor pressure and entropy, and all of the basic, underlying chemistry and physics. In my profession, we measure partial pressures of oxygen and carbon dioxide in solution, with intricate machinery in complex physiological systems., Nonetheless,

    It has been one week in my garage, which is between 90 and 105°, and that cartridge loaded with 150 grains of water has not lost even a fraction of a grain on my FX 120 scale, accurate to 0.02 grains
     
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    I didn't talk theory. I talked about empirical observations. Read the details. Time delta, humidity delta. Like death and taxes, you can't beat entropy and the 2nd law. They drive movement of molecules across barriers.

    If you believe your system is stable, then why complain about the problem?

    "Ever since I have been measuring powder humidity, I have learned how big a variable it can be in terms of velocity. I have been controlling my powder humidity using 49% humidor humidity packs in my powder kegs. I monitor each keg with a kestrel D2 drop before I load with it to see if it has drifted drastically from 50%."

    I talked about control across the process, beginning to end, for a reason. How did your powder drift drastically? I didn't say that a cartridge humidity drifts as fast as a powder jug but if you think a cartridge is long term stable, think again .
     
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    What I think happened here is that I got one pound of H50BMG to do load development with. I did not bother to put a humidity pack in it and was not meticulous about emptying my supertrickler during load development adn it was hot and arid out. (I didn't even think it was going to shoot well, and it was just 1# for testing, so I was not careful to control the ambient conditions.)
    Furthermore my Kesterl D2 did not fit in the 1# container (I now know that I just need to fishmouth the container and jam it in there.)

    The point of this thread, Triple, is this: am I a fool to maintain my powder near where it comes from the factory, if it's only going to "off gas" water vapor once loaded into shells? It's not only a matter of "if" (of course it will), but "how much" and 'how fast".

    I'm just trying to figure out a path forward and I appreciate ALL ya'all's insights and expertise
     
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    Understood. I live near Denver and the humidity here is typically pretty low. It can be a challenge and requires jumping through hoops to keep my system stable. My reloading room is in the house and our heating/cooling system has automatic humidity control, but it can't control very well, especially during the more extreme swings in weather & humidity. I tried one in-room humidifier/dehumidifier that was useless and am shopping again. For my ELR ammo, I've had some periods of months where I had very stable performance and occasional what-the-fuck episodes with high MV, blown primers, etc. My intermediate solution has been to back off the load a bit and spend more time on other shooting projects. I know some people use a product to paint the primer/pocket junction to seal and have considered it but not yet tried it.

    I don't travel long distances to shoot in ELR comps, so I only have to compensate for local conditions, but even that is challenging. The surface area of extruded powders is high enough to be pretty active at absorbing water if the humidity is high. If you opt to move your system intentionally into the dry zone, then you get to deal with a different set of consequences, which include more difficulty in using an analytical balance consistently due to static electricity and the Zerostat dance. For the time being, I'm wanting to control the reloading room/ammo storage humidity and am looking into higher quality humidifiers. ELR problems for the modern world.
     
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    Nice to know, somebody else is fretting over this like me, and taking a somewhat similar approach.

    Interestingly, I have it by direct message that Hodgkin recommends allowing powder to equilibrate with ambient conditions. But I don’t see that documented anywhere publicly. I bet the guy that got this from Hodgkin might chime in.
     
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    Nice to know, somebody else is fretting over this like me, and taking a somewhat similar approach.

    Interestingly, I have it by direct message that Hodgkin recommends allowing powder to equilibrate with ambient conditions. But I don’t see that documented anywhere publicly. I bet the guy that got this from Hodgkin might chime in.
    There has to be some qualifier with that though.

    I can't see that as viable advice when the ambient conditions are well below 30% RH
     
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    There has to be some qualifier with that though.

    I can't see that as viable advice when the ambient conditions are well below 30% RH
    I thought similarly but that is what they said AND reiterated to me when I called them the other day. The person, in product support, further advised me not to put any additive substances in the powder to control the humidity. And they reiterated the “Store in a cool dry place” line as well.
     
    I’ve seen that also in a thread about Vihtavuori powders: “keep your powder dry, but not too dry”

    The only thing I can conclude from all of this information is the manufacturers have not kept up with the state of knowledge and the practical use of their products in extreme long range applications

    Let’s take this a step further: what exactly does it mean by “cool” and what does exactly it mean by “dry”?

    I’ll answer that. Cool means not hot and dry means not wet.

    And of course they don’t want us to put humidity packs in our powders, because that adds another variable that they cannot control and must respond to if anything goes awry - liability and all that.

    Basically, we are on our own here. We need to figure it out ourselves, which is what this thread is about.

    Finally, we all know how reliable the information is that we are given from whatever tech that responds to our calls or inquiries. He could be a minimum wage guy that doesn’t know his dick from a pixie stick, or he could be a Ballistics engineer, or a rocket scientist or hell he could even be Brian Litz. Unless we ask, how are we to know whether or not the information that this employee provides is a reliable guide.

    Honestly, we need the guys on the hornady podcast to respond to this issue. Somebody please tag them or DM them or whatever to get them involved.
     
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    I’ve seen that also in a thread about Vihtavuori powders: “keep your powder dry, but not too dry”

    The only thing I can conclude from all of this information is the manufacturers have not kept up with the state of knowledge and the practical use of their products in extreme long range applications

    Let’s take this a step further: what exactly does it mean by “cool” and what does exactly it mean by “dry”?

    I’ll answer that. Cool means not hot and dry means not wet.

    And of course they don’t want us to put humidity packs in our powders, because that adds another variable that they cannot control and must respond to if anything goes awry - liability and all that.

    Basically, we are on our own here. We need to figure it out ourselves, which is what this thread is about.

    Finally, we all know how reliable the information is that we are given from whatever tech that responds to our calls or inquiries. He could be a minimum wage guy that doesn’t know his dick from a pixie stick, or he could be a Ballistics engineer, or a rocket scientist or hell he could even be Brian Litz. Unless we ask, how are we to know whether or not the information that this employee provides is a reliable guide.

    Honestly, we need the guys on the hornady podcast to respond to this issue. Somebody please tag them or DM them or whatever to get them involved.
    . . . speaking of which :sneaky: :

     
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    Yes it was that video and threads like it that led me to where I am. I have put 49% packs in all my (large) powder jugs and am highly attuned to humidity, monitoring it with an orange D2 so I can be just like Litz :)

    This thread is specifically about whether AFTER controlling humidity all the way through the reloading process, I can lose control when loaded shells sit around leaking water vapor, thus foiling all my efforts.

    I did enjoy watching the video again. Interesting that he uses H50 BMG as his example, which is of special interest to him because that’s what they shoot with their 375 enabler. Also interesting that he is using 133 grains, which is a commonly used Charge for the 400 grain class projectiles in 375 cheytac as well.
     
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    Yes it was that video and threads like it that led me to where I am. I have put 49% packs in all my (large) powder jugs and am highly attuned to humidity, monitoring it with an orange D2 so I can be just like Litz :)

    This thread is specifically about whether AFTER controlling humidity all the way through the reloading process, I can lose control when loaded shells sit around leaking water vapor, thus foiling all my efforts.

    I did enjoy watching the video again. Interesting that he uses H50 BMG as his example, which is of special interest to him because that’s what they shoot with their 375 enabler. Also interesting that he is using 133 grains, which is a commonly used Charge for the 400 grain class projectiles in 375 cheytac as well.
    I have not seen or experienced any significant leaking of the moisture content on my loaded cartridges on the short term (like 2 - 3 months) as measured by any difference in MV's. Since I don't use any kind of sealant on my cartridges, I feel sure that there is some leakage; just not enough where I can detect any effect on their performance (mainly, my .308 and 6.5 PRC cartridges). I feel my leakage is most likely due to little or no changes in air pressure between the time they're loaded and fired. I'm sure there's a better way to test that if I wanted to, but as long as I don't see the effects on velocity, I see no point in it.

    Now, if I were to hunting where the altitude is 6-7000 ft and I load my cartridges at 900 ft, I'm sure there'd be a quick stabilization of pressure inside the cartridge where the outside atmosphere and its moisture would be drawn in. And of course, the opposite would happen when loading at a high altitude and traveling to a lower one to shoot.

    In addition to atmospherics effecting powder in a cartridge, sometimes I wonder about any effects of temperature on moisture content inside a loaded case. Like, if a cartridge comes indoors to a warm environment from freezing outdoor temperatures, how much condensation might occur on the interior and if any, how does that effect the powder??? If it does affect the powder, will taking it back out into to cold return it to its previous state??? lol . . . does it matter? ;) This is about as bad as thinking about barrel harmonics. 😵‍💫:LOL:
     
    So why not just load ammo and let it sit for a month then pull the bullets and weigh charges out again? I rarely have ammo that sits more than a month.

    Something that's easily missed in the AB video is that Bryan seems to think that the seal on the 8lb jugs is good enough to maintain humidity over long periods of time. I don't think that we have to worry about the humidity of our loaded rounds for short periods of time. But I could be wrong.

    I live in a very dry part of Colorado but it's very humid today. Maybe I'll load some up and see.
     
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    A few things I've learnt over the years.
    1 A good reason for keeping the propellent over 40%RH is to avoid generating and buildup of static electricity.
    2 From the manufacturer I was told that if the RH is less than 40% the burn rate increases drastically; conversely over 60% the burnrate decreases drastically.
    3 Between 40% and 60% the MV of a medium cartridge changes approximately 2 fps per percentage point of RH for their brand of extruded powder. I have confirmed that with my own testing.

    RH is temperature dependent. All the above statements is for 25°C. Raising the temperature lowers RH.

    Any propellant manufacturer that states you should let the powder acclimatize to ambient without setting limits to ambient is opening itself up to litigation.
     
    Is is unfortunate that all of this humidity discussion is going on and people are running test that do not reflect how powder reacts with air. Fundamentally relative humidity is the wrong variable to even be discussing. The actual variable that affects the moisture exchange is partial pressure of the water in air. The normal temperature that corresponds to this is dew point temperature. While humidity changes throughout the day, dew point doesn't, except when air masses change. From a practical standpoint air at 70F and 50% relative humidity has the same dew point and partial pressure as air at 110F and 14% RH and the same effect on powder. For those familiar with the Norma Chart (https://chronoplotter.com/2021/08/19/how-does-humidity-affect-powder/), the relative humidity displayed is at a constant temperature and represents dew point temperatures of about 38F to 68F. Equilibrium between air and nitrocellulose is only a function of dew point/partial pressure.

    Nitrocellulose behaves much the same as wood (cellulose) and if you are familiar with extremes of humidity (summer vs winter) and the behavior of wood trim or flooring you know that the wood will swell in the summer and shrinkk in the winter as the relative humidity and dew point in the house change. The change however take time. That time is not measured in minutes or hours but in days and weeks. While wood is solid smokeless powder is made up of small particles/grains of powder. However it commonly exists in what is called a packed column. When in a cartridge case or stored in a jug most of the powder is in contact with air which it is in equilibrium with and that air is trapped between the grains. Only a small portion of the surface is exposed to the air above the powder. Because hygroscopic behavior is a surface effect the grains do not magically loose all their moisture at once. It takes time for the moisture to migrate to the surface.

    Air at any temperature will only hold a small amount of moisture. To demonstrate, an 8lb jug of powder has a volume of about 1.2 gallons or .16 cubic feet. If it contains one pound of powder which occupies about 0.018 cubic feet leaving the moist air to occupy about 0.142 cubic feet. If the powder shipped with 1% moisture then it will contain .01 lbs of water. It is common to load powder in an environment of about 70F and 50% or greater to prevent the possible buildup of static electricity. We can assume the powder is in equilibrium with air at 70F and 50% RH (dew point of 50.5F) and the air has a H2O content of . If we were to open the jug and replace the air with 105F and 25% RH (dew point of 62F) the maximum amount of H2O that could be gained is 0.000035 lbs, making the total amount of H2O in the powder .010035 lbs for an increase of 0.35%. The actual gain would be less than this as the vapor pressure of the powder increases and the vapor pressure of the of the air decreases.

    After the jug of powder is opened the only source of moisture/air exchange is the the seal on the top. When sealed the major source of air exchange with the environment is via pressure differences between the air inside the jug and ambient. The two sources of these pressure differences are ambient temperature which tends to not be a factor for small, slow changes in temperature because the temperature of the air in the jug will follow close behind the ambient and changes in barometric pressure which will cause very small changes in the total mass of air in the jug.

    Powder moved from a jug to a dispenser and back does not typically have enough time to exchange anything but a very minor amount of moisture with air and the minor amount of air trapped within the packed bed will quickly reach equilibrium.

    If humidity changes were as significant as some people tend to imply, powder manufactures would go beyond there normal recordsmmendations. The below is from Vihtavouri's Loading Manual:

    STORE IN A COOL, DRY PLACE. Be sure the storage area selected is free from any possible sources of excess heat and is isolated from open flame, furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. Do not store smokeless powder where it will be exposed to the sun’s rays. Avoid storage in areas where mechanical orelectrical equipment is in operation. Restrict from the storage areas heat or sparks which may result from improper, defective or overloaded electrical circuits.
    DO NOT STORE SMOKELESS POWDER IN THE SAME AREA WITH SOLVENTS, FLAMMABLE GASES OR HIGHLY COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS. STORE ONLY IN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION APPROVED CONTAINERS.
    Do not transfer the powder from an approved container into one which is not approved.

    It should be obvious that the powder should be kept dry. As for cool, this is to reduce the rate that the powder decompose and releases nitric acid. The life of powder is dependent on the stabilizers used to limit the nitric acid buildup. When depleted the powder goes bad.


    Since the original post concerned cartridges the same principles apply but a normal round will contain almost no free air. Most is within the packed bed of powder. Again the mechanisms for exchange with ambient air are the same. While the bullet and primer are not hermetically sealed little air as a percent of total air will move into or out of the cartridge. As for military rounds the sealant is not for humidity effects but to protect the integrity of the cartridge if/when it becomes submersed in water.

    A note on test that are run with various humidity packets. These involve the forced humification or drying of powder by an external hygroscopic solution. In many cases it reflects conditions that do not reflect the actual conditions that reasonably stored powders could ever achieve.
     
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    I read that and rushed to my garage and moved all my powder to the basement. Seriously.
     
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    Update: 8 months in, the 375 CT case in the OP has lost basically zero weight - less than 0.05 grains. Each time I weigh it, it varies by 0.02 or 0.04 but just fluctuates around there, probably because over the months I'm not re-calibrating my scale often enough. Suffice it to say that a new primer seated in a tight pocket and a bullet lubricated with lanolin based lube doesn't accept or lose moisture (loaded to about 0.003" "neck tension" interference fit).

    I don't know what would happen if you subjected it to significant pressure changes e.g., flying. That would increase the gradient for gas escape quite a bit because of atmospheric pressure changes at altitude (say, 35,000 feet), but recall that the temperatures in the cargo hold of the aircraft will be way below freezing, where the vapor pressure of water is basically zero. So, I'm extremely skeptical that significant velocity deviations from lot to lot of ammo, or shooting in a different humidity environment can be chalked up to humidity changes inside a cartridge case, unless there are extenuating circumstances or some variable I'm overlooking or minimizing the impact of.
     
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    If the cabin is pressurized so is the cargo hold. Maximum cabin altitude hardly ever goes over 8,000’ because of the passengers. Most holds are heated and the ones that aren’t really don’t get that cold.
     
    It'd be interesting to set something like an ESP32 board with sensors to act as a data logger inside the ammo container. I mean, you could use a stock off-the-shelf device like a Kestrel Drop or Govee sensor, but where's the fun in that? 😁 Plus you could add in other sensors (accelerometer, for g-force) to the DIY version.

    That'd settle a lot of the arguments, one way or the other.
     
    Moisture =H2O increases powder energy . Burn is Burn , Dragster at sea level 90% humidity develops More power or energy than say said dragster at 9K ft. with 20% RH . Same difference at Sea Level more humidity MORE energy .

    Realistically unless one is leaving their powder OPEN in 70-90 % humidity ,I'd NOT fret . Most of us pour out or into a powder measure and reseal the canister and if your not you should be . Only Idiots believe powder is made identically batch to batch without variation . Only in one's dreams .
    Primers 2-3% variation allowable ,Powder 2-5% variation REALISTIC . Few things are near perfect deal with it .
     
    Moisture =H2O increases powder energy . Burn is Burn , Dragster at sea level 90% humidity develops More power or energy than say said dragster at 9K ft. with 20% RH . Same difference at Sea Level more humidity MORE energy .
    Sorry ExE6 but no.

    The addition of water content to powder charge will slow the burn, not speed it, and it reduces the air density not raise it.

    When powder is dried, it is faster for two reasons. The water content changes the density, but it also lowers the energy level.

    If charged by weight it is slightly lower density and thus you add more fuel, but also because when dry it produces a higher energy by weight, so we would call that a double whammy.

    If we take a charge of powder that was normalized to 50% RH and place it on a scale, then dry the atmosphere and re-weigh the powder, it gets lighter. So, if you "fixed" that you would be adding more powder thus more fuel/energy. However, if we just lower the water content and test, we still get higher velocity even without adding more powder, thus the combustion energy is increased on dry powder.

    And as for engines, humidity, and altitude, again no.

    Combustion engines do what they do as a result of ambient pressure and air density too. The addition of water vapor to air reduces its density. The molar mass of air is 29 and the molar mass of water vapor is 18, so adding water vapor to air reduces the density.

    At sea level, an engine fed dry air will produce more power than one fed wet air because the water content is an inert diluent and because it reduces the air density and the oxygen content.
    So that engine at sea level with dry air will outrun that same engine fed 90%RH, and the same analog at altitude.

    Long ago... I was a young undergrad student in a classroom with a Russian Escapee professor who had a very thick accent. It sticks in your head when a classmate asked him about the altitude versus power effect and his response was "no P, no delta P" in that very thick accent with the smirk on his face sounding like Boris Badenov. This was in the time where they had to either risk their life to escape, or bribe their way out.

    No worries, carry on.
     
    Sorry ExE6 but no.

    The addition of water content to powder charge will slow the burn, not speed it, and it reduces the air density not raise it.

    When powder is dried, it is faster for two reasons. The water content changes the density, but it also lowers the energy level.

    If charged by weight it is slightly lower density and thus you add more fuel, but also because when dry it produces a higher energy by weight, so we would call that a double whammy.

    If we take a charge of powder that was normalized to 50% RH and place it on a scale, then dry the atmosphere and re-weigh the powder, it gets lighter. So, if you "fixed" that you would be adding more powder thus more fuel/energy. However, if we just lower the water content and test, we still get higher velocity even without adding more powder, thus the combustion energy is increased on dry powder.

    And as for engines, humidity, and altitude, again no.

    Combustion engines do what they do as a result of ambient pressure and air density too. The addition of water vapor to air reduces its density. The molar mass of air is 29 and the molar mass of water vapor is 18, so adding water vapor to air reduces the density.

    At sea level, an engine fed dry air will produce more power than one fed wet air because the water content is an inert diluent and because it reduces the air density and the oxygen content.
    So that engine at sea level with dry air will outrun that same engine fed 90%RH, and the same analog at altitude.

    Long ago... I was a young undergrad student in a classroom with a Russian Escapee professor who had a very thick accent. It sticks in your head when a classmate asked him about the altitude versus power effect and his response was "no P, no delta P" in that very thick accent with the smirk on his face sounding like Boris Badenov. This was in the time where they had to either risk their life to escape, or bribe their way out.

    No worries, carry on.
    I'll concede You're correct . Excessive humidity would cool the burn thus not consuming the 02 entirely .

    Burn can be slowed with excessive absorption but Note MOST ALL smokeless powders are produced in 48-55% RH including when they're packaged . Relative charge weight of a given cartridge would be light with higher RH as moisture would factor into the equation . Which You noted . Also note Dbl base powders are almost negligible to RH ,as Nitroglycerin is present in addition to nitrocellulose .

    ALL MY powders have an inner plastic coated sealed tab inside the caps ,I'll assume everyone Else's powder do also . I pour out what I'm using into a powder measure ,resealing My powder container and place it on the bench top . I see very negligible % of RH entering the process .
    In addition to the fact our RH around here is generally less than 30% and many a days 7% -15 % . We have altitude but low humidity .



    https://chronoplotter.com/2021/08/19/how-does-humidity-affect-powder/
     
    I am adding 49% Humidor packs to my canisters like Bryan Litz. I have decided this is the best way to keep my powder in as close condition to "new" as possible, which I presume (without evidence) most closely aligns with "book max" loads and QL predictions. I think variation in powder RH was a hidden variable causing much "lot to lot" variation in my reloads, previously.

    The experiment in the OP was to determine if, after I load the powder at a controlled humidity, the RH could "get away from me" by leaking from loaded ammo. I think my answer to that question is No.
     
    I am adding 49% Humidor packs to my canisters like Bryan Litz. I have decided this is the best way to keep my powder in as close condition to "new" as possible, which I presume (without evidence) most closely aligns with "book max" loads and QL predictions. I think variation in powder RH was a hidden variable causing much "lot to lot" variation in my reloads, previously.

    The experiment in the OP was to determine if, after I load the powder at a controlled humidity, the RH could "get away from me" by leaking from loaded ammo. I think my answer to that question is No.

    Are you doing this only after opening, or are you going through some process of homogenization?
     
    Not sure I understand.

    I don't open containers until I use them the first time (so if I sell them, I can say honestly that they're unopened cuz for some reason guys insist on that around here). Before first time I use it, I check the inside humidity with a Kestrel D2 drop to assure it's near 49% and it usually is. And then I put in the humador pack(s) just to assure that during the opening and closing and transfer to the hopper and back and all that, that I'm not losing humidity, especially in the hot summers in Utah.

    As another example, I bought an 8# jug of RL16 2 weeks ago from a guy who said he had it for "about 5 years" and never opened it. The RH inside that jug was 44% when I opened it. So I put in a pack and let it equilibrate for several days before using it.

    It's probably not *necessary* in general especially now that I have moved my powder stores to the basement where it's always 59-70 degrees, and now that I don't leave powder in the hopper/dispenser like I used to. I used to be, frankly, ignorant of the humidity issue and as a result did things that probably led to marked differences in my loads as a given container lost humidity. Also, I sometimes have a jug of powder for 10 years and in those cases the time factor alone will drive significant humidity loss if you live in an arid zone. I also used to sometimes charge 100 cases and leave them sit there for a day or more just covered with a towel before I loaded the projectiles. No longer. And before somebody says it, I'll spare you the trouble: "Well, if you would have just been more careful, you wouldn't need those humidity packs..." Yeah, I get it.

    But I figure for $1 per pack, it's a cheap insurance policy so I at least know, every time I open a container to start a reloading session, I'm starting with powder with 49% humidity. I even write it on the ammo boxes, so if my velocity is off next range session, I don't have any tendency to blame the RH.
     
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    Ahh, yes that is what I was talking about. After talking with some folks, I was doing a different process, of trying to normalize the powder to my local humidity levels.

    1. mix all my powder into a large bin
    2. leave the powder out to dry for several weeks in the winter
    3. re-pack the powder back into the original bins

    The idea was to avoid abrupt changes by trying to pre-set the humidity to local conditions (at least the conditions at some point in time). The theory was that the original humidity in the plastic jugs was higher than our local humidity in Colorado.

    I like the humidor packs idea better. Can you post a link to where your getting them?
     
    Ahh, yes that is what I was talking about. After talking with some folks, I was doing a different process, of trying to normalize the powder to my local humidity levels.

    1. mix all my powder into a large bin
    2. leave the powder out to dry for several weeks in the winter
    3. re-pack the powder back into the original bins

    The idea was to avoid abrupt changes by trying to pre-set the humidity to local conditions (at least the conditions at some point in time). The theory was that the original humidity in the plastic jugs was higher than our local humidity in Colorado.

    I like the humidor packs idea better. Can you post a link to where your getting them?
    Code:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JV27MCM/
     
    Not sure I understand.

    I don't open containers until I use them the first time (so if I sell them, I can say honestly that they're unopened cuz for some reason guys insist on that around here). Before first time I use it, I check the inside humidity with a Kestrel D2 drop to assure it's near 49% and it usually is. And then I put in the humador pack(s) just to assure that during the opening and closing and transfer to the hopper and back and all that, that I'm not losing humidity, especially in the hot summers in Utah.

    As another example, I bought an 8# jug of RL16 2 weeks ago from a guy who said he had it for "about 5 years" and never opened it. The RH inside that jug was 44% when I opened it. So I put in a pack and let it equilibrate for several days before using it.

    It's probably not *necessary* in general especially now that I have moved my powder stores to the basement where it's always 59-70 degrees, and now that I don't leave powder in the hopper/dispenser like I used to. I used to be, frankly, ignorant of the humidity issue and as a result did things that probably led to marked differences in my loads as a given container lost humidity. Also, I sometimes have a jug of powder for 10 years and in those cases the time factor alone will drive significant humidity loss if you live in an arid zone. I also used to sometimes charge 100 cases and leave them sit there for a day or more just covered with a towel before I loaded the projectiles. No longer. And before somebody says it, I'll spare you the trouble: "Well, if you would have just been more careful, you wouldn't need those humidity packs..." Yeah, I get it.

    But I figure for $1 per pack, it's a cheap insurance policy so I at least know, every time I open a container to start a reloading session, I'm starting with powder with 49% humidity. I even write it on the ammo boxes, so if my velocity is off next range session, I don't have any tendency to blame the RH.

    Bingo : A lot of us reloaders used to leave powder in the measure and hindsight was and is a mistake IMO. Opening a container and using the lids inside tab or even a sandwich bag IF you tear the tab ,so as to reseal the container of pounder is best method . As with ammunition highly unlikely RH is gonna screw with it once it's assembled . Shooting air density will do far more than RH concerning rounds . Primers are press fit ditto with bullets and water molecules are too large to sneak past . Storing powder should be done between 40-70 Deg. F. and an old refrigerator or decent semi sealed cabinet in a basement or a relatively unchanged temperature room of sorts is best . Huge temperature swings ISN'T good .

    Chemicals like stable ambient temperature at moderate humidity . I know a gal that stores hers in an unplugged chest freezer out in her garage and I've actually used some of hers without incident .

    Fyi : I'm still using powder I purchased from Bruce Hodgdon in the 60's ,H870 aka as WC870 20mm Vulcan cannon powder .

    Unfortunately I didn't store it properly as it never occurred to Me back then and I'd say maybe 25 years of poor storage ensued before I started storing powder properly . Hell back then I'd get it use it and it was dirt cheap . Not so any longer ,Eh !.

    It still goes BOOM ,however not having measuring equipment back in those days I can only go by MY load data and IF they're impacting low I up the charge slightly . Accurate powder in MY magnums have always favored H870 .

    Wonder what smokeless powder the 16" powder bags contained ?. I know they had 4.4 lb. black powder sewn in them for kicker ignition . Each powder bag weighed 55Kg. aka 110 lb. and #6 per load = 660 lb. charge 2101 lb. shell at 2900 fps. ,so muzzle energy would be 98,406 ft. tons . OUCH
     

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    Ahh, yes that is what I was talking about. After talking with some folks, I was doing a different process, of trying to normalize the powder to my local humidity levels.

    1. mix all my powder into a large bin
    2. leave the powder out to dry for several weeks in the winter
    3. re-pack the powder back into the original bins

    The idea was to avoid abrupt changes by trying to pre-set the humidity to local conditions (at least the conditions at some point in time). The theory was that the original humidity in the plastic jugs was higher than our local humidity in Colorado.

    I like the humidor packs idea better. Can you post a link to where your getting them?

    49% 70 gram, you want to buy 12 at a time, probably from amazon

    Also, for the record though it has been argued elsewhere. Some guys do what you describe and put it on cookie sheets and let it equilibrate to ambient low humidity, say 20% in Montana in summer, arguing that it will burn faster, have more energy per grain, and then the concerns I expressed are moot. Plus you get more bang for your buck for a grain of powder (because it burns faster and has higher energy density [less is H2O])!

    While I don't dismiss that one day I will find myself standing alongside them, I'm thinking that if I'm shooting RETUMBO loads that I've shot for years that are based on QL calcs, book published loads, and my own experience, which I think are all MOSTLY starting with a 50% RH, I don't really want to be loading powder with 20% humidity that is "hotter" and "energy denser" than QL, published loads, and my long experience doing load development with a new bottle of (~50% RH) powder....Just seems like the wrong path to me.
     
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    Ahh, yes that is what I was talking about. After talking with some folks, I was doing a different process, of trying to normalize the powder to my local humidity levels.

    1. mix all my powder into a large bin
    2. leave the powder out to dry for several weeks in the winter
    3. re-pack the powder back into the original bins

    The idea was to avoid abrupt changes by trying to pre-set the humidity to local conditions (at least the conditions at some point in time). The theory was that the original humidity in the plastic jugs was higher than our local humidity in Colorado.

    I like the humidor packs idea better. Can you post a link to where your getting them?

    After reading the initial post way back when, I invested in one of these for open powder

     
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    I've been messing with this as well and have found that when I worked up my OCW that it was with powder that had dried out in my hopper (in Denver area during winter).

    40.3 grains H4350 and a 140 ELD-M nets 2700 fps after sitting in the hopper and just stacks. 40.3 grains straight from the jug in the same brass, same scale etc was 2650 FPS and seemed slightly out of node. Only thing that changed was the powder had not sat out. I can't imagine my FX120 with autotrickler would have drifted enough to account for that big a swing between calibration.

    My buddy brought up a good point too, that it might be that the powder literally weighs out LESS with less moisture content. So burn rate may change but volume likely does too. For me I lost about 40-50 fps with powder straight from the jug vs powder that dried in a hopper or tub for two days, everything else equal.

    So rather than jack with humidity packs, etc I'm just drying it 24-48 hours before loading. One more variable to worry about that people might not have accounted for before shooting everything over a chrono like we do now with Garmin's, etc.