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Next scope purchase (ATACR, ZCO, DMR) Thoughts??? Feedback

Yes Liberty optics scammed a bunch of people, but that was NOT always the case. So your statement is not a honest one. Liberty optics was around on snipershide since 2009. I highly doubt he could have been charging less than what he paid in turn losing money. That’s not possible for 14 plus years he’s been here.


I did not say they scammed the whole time, in the past year or so it was fishy to sell items to customers below dealers costs.


If you want to think he did that because he has a heart of gold than i can't say otherwise. I've had discussions with Vortex and other dealers and nobody could figure out what he was doing.

-Richard
 
Yes Liberty optics scammed a bunch of people, but that was NOT always the case. So your statement is not a honest one. Liberty optics was around on snipershide since 2009. I highly doubt he could have been charging less than what he paid in turn losing money. That’s not possible for 14 plus years he’s been here.
It was Ponzi scheme, There is no way he could sell at or below dealer and cover expenses.
 
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Yes Liberty optics scammed a bunch of people, but that was NOT always the case. So your statement is not a honest one. Liberty optics was around on snipershide since 2009. I highly doubt he could have been charging less than what he paid in turn losing money. That’s not possible for 14 plus years he’s
Does anyone know what happen to him?
 
Veteran prices 40 % off thru euro. Sometimes 50% off when they have a sale. 2400 currently.
It is important to note that not everyone on here is MIL, LE, or veteran. The 2K G3 thing gets thrown out irresponsibly as if its available to everyone and that's where shit gets lost in translation.

Being that you have great pricing available to you through EO I think it's a no brainer as to what optic you should purchase. At that price I would be looking at G3s and ATACRS and not consider the ZCO at all.
 
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It is important to note that not everyone on here is MIL, LE, or veteran. The 2K G3 thing gets thrown out irresponsibly as if its available to everyone and that's where shit gets lost in translation.

Being that you have great pricing available to you through EO I think it's a no brainer as to what optic you should purchase. At that price I would be looking at G3s and ATACRS and not consider the ZCO at all.
ZCO does veteran pricing also. What I have gotten from this thread is. Atacr good scope. But with a ZCO you can see more detail at low light. Can't go wrong with either. But the 525 atacr is the worst atacr. Would be better with a 420 or 735 atacr. But ZCO has better glass.
 
ZCO does veteran pricing also. What I have gotten from this thread is. Atacr good scope. But with a ZCO you can see more detail at low light. Can't go wrong with either. But the 525 atacr is the worst atacr. Would be better with a 420 or 735 atacr. But ZCO has better glass.
I’d go 7-35 atacr or 4-20/5-27 ZCO
 
The Bushnell/DMR doesnt even belong in the same conversation as the others mentioned. Chances are bushnell wont even exist or be making scopes in 5 years. Company is a shitshow and their products are dated as fuck.

ZCO
Tangent
Gen 3 Razor
New Kahles 3-28 (insane FOV)
S&B 6-36

If it was me, buying today, It would be the Gen 3 razor on the cheaper end or the Kahles on the High end. Both have full FOV and are not cucked/limited by the Swaro Patent. In 2026 when the patent expires and S&B, Tangent and ZCO can release their full FOV, then they will be the buy. Buying them for full price now you are going to take a huge hit upgrading them in 2 years.

You can buy a Razor for 2100-2400 Today... Shoot it for 2 years. Sell it for what you paid for it (or even more due to inflation) and buy the non cucked ZCO, Tangent or S&B. That would be my path. Or if you really want to drop 4k, the Kahles is supposed to amazing from people I have talked to who have ran them.
 
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It is important to note that not everyone on here is MIL, LE, or veteran. The 2K G3 thing gets thrown out irresponsibly as if its available to everyone and that's where shit gets lost in translation.

Being that you have great pricing available to you through EO I think it's a no brainer as to what optic you should purchase. At that price I would be looking at G3s and ATACRS and not consider the ZCO at all.
Its easy. Buy a vortex cert from the EE for 100 bucks or less. Buy Razor for EO for 2100+100 cert. 2200 Razor (plus tax). The Black Razor is like 2450 with PRS discount, which is $40 a year. And there are sales a few times a year that make it an even better buy. Shits not hard.
 
Its easy. Buy a vortex cert from the EE for 100 bucks or less. Buy Razor for EO for 2100+100 cert. 2200 Razor (plus tax). The Black Razor is like 2450 with PRS discount, which is $40 a year. And there are sales a few times a year that make it an even better buy. Shits not hard.
Shits not hard but those are all extra steps not explained when people throw those types of numbers around. Why not just say the shit is 2200 if you do this, this, or this instead of making it sound like it's widely available at that price anywhere you look. I typically contact retailers and see what they can do for me especially if am a returning costumer, but theres a lot of new shooters on here that might not know which channels to take.
 
Maybe because people dont want to type the shit out every single time. When someone tells you to wipe your ass, do they give you detailed instructions every time? People can search out the site, its explained like 100 times over the years. if they were actually reading and searching instead of asking the same 10 fucking questions every day, they would know this.
 
Basically he allowed normal people to get almost “industry” prices for stuff. Even to this day it angers a lot. He helped the consumers….. Then created the fuckery that happened.

That's absolutely not what he was doing all these years. It was always the elephant in the room that no one talked about. The topic was common offline with vendors and retailers. But was almost never addressed publicly because the people getting the discounts that have zero knowledge on the business side.....would crucify you on forums if you mentioned it. Before I was a vendor/retailer I would purposely not buy from him because it was doing that much damage to the industry as a whole and many vendors specifically.

He was selling so cheap that he was either not making any profit and using that to get people to buy other shit that he was making profit on......or he was making pennies on what was virtually a drop ship strategy in which he got paid upfront and either never touched an item, or only touched it to ship it out.

And it was basically supplemental income, not full time since he had a full time job.

On the surface, to individual customers it appeared that he was helping them. In reality, he was diluting a product/s value while undercutting business that rely on real profit to remain in business while his business didn't require profit at all. This pushed a lot of vendors to not carry Vortex models he mainly sold as they couldn't compete.

Those things are far, far worse for the consumer than the price break they were getting. His business model had zero chance to succeed in the long run and only made it 14yrs because it was a side hustle. Meanwhile, the industry as a whole is far worse off after him, than they would have been without him.
 
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The Bushnell/DMR doesnt even belong in the same conversation as the others mentioned. Chances are bushnell wont even exist or be making scopes in 5 years. Company is a shitshow and their products are dated as fuck.

ZCO
Tangent
Gen 3 Razor
New Kahles 3-28 (insane FOV)
S&B 6-36

If it was me, buying today, It would be the Gen 3 razor on the cheaper end or the Kahles on the High end. Both have full FOV and are not cucked/limited by the Swaro Patent. In 2026 when the patent expires and S&B, Tangent and ZCO can release their full FOV, then they will be the buy. Buying them for full price now you are going to take a huge hit upgrading them in 2 years.

You can buy a Razor for 2100-2400 Today... Shoot it for 2 years. Sell it for what you paid for it (or even more due to inflation) and buy the non cucked ZCO, Tangent or S&B. That would be my path. Or if you really want to drop 4k, the Kahles is supposed to amazing from people I have talked to who have ran them.
I didn't know about the patent. That's good info. I already have a razor and a SB. I will look up the kahles you mentioned. My only NF is an NX8 so was curious about glass difference in atacr vs zco. Have you had experience with atacr 420 and 735?
 
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I didn't know about the patent. That's good info. I already have a razor and a SB. I will look up the kahles you mentioned. My only NF is an NX8 so was curious about glass difference in atacr vs zco. Have you had experience with atacr 420 and 735?
I owned a 5-25 ATACR and was not a fan. Dont have time on the newer 420 but have used the old 4-16x42, which was a good gas gun scope. The 735 has much better glass than the 525 but it still lags behind all those I mentioned. You can get them used for 2500 all day, but i think the gen 3 razor is a better optic for the money (both made in Japan). All 3 are better than the NX8, which has lessor glass and DOF issues from packing so much into such a small package. I also hate the spinning occular on the NF. Its a dumb design that needs to die.

I dont see the point of the 20x scopes unless they are small and light for hunting/crossovers. Might as well get the top end magnification since the vast majority of shooter alot of us do is 15x and above anyway. Even my hunting gun stays around 15-18x.
 
That's absolutely not what he was doing all these years. It was always the elephant in the room that no one talked about. The topic was common offline with vendors and retailers. But was almost never addressed publicly because the people getting the discounts that have zero knowledge on the business side.....would crucify you on forums if you mentioned it. Before I was a vendor/retailer I would purposely not buy from him because it was doing that much damage to the industry as a whole and many vendors specifically.

He was selling so cheap that he was either not making any profit and using that to get people to buy other shit that he was making profit on......or he was making pennies on what was virtually a drop ship strategy in which he got paid upfront and either never touched an item, or only touched it to ship it out.

And it was basically supplemental income, not full time since he had a full time job.

On the surface, to individual customers it appeared that he was helping them. In reality, he was diluting a product/s value while undercutting business that rely on real profit to remain in business while his business didn't require profit at all. This pushed a lot of vendors to not carry Vortex models he mainly sold as they couldn't compete.

Those things are far, far worse for the consumer than the price break they were getting. His business model had zero chance to succeed in the long run and only made it 14yrs because it was a side hustle. Meanwhile, the industry as a whole is far worse off after him, than they would have been without him.
I think he got in good with Vortex early in their formation and probally got better pricing due his vollume/early adopter. Loyalty is worth alot to a family business as they are starting out. I bought alot of scopes from him over the years and was one of the ones who was burned in the last buy. Thankfully my bank and vortex made me whole.

I would still love to know what happened to that shitbag. I remember calling him from iraq in 2005 to order an IOR and he was the nicest guy. No one expected shit to go the way it did.
 
I owned a 5-25 ATACR and was not a fan. Dont have time on the newer 420 but have used the old 4-16x42, which was a good gas gun scope. The 735 has much better glass than the 525 but it still lags behind all those I mentioned. You can get them used for 2500 all day, but i think the gen 3 razor is a better optic for the money (both made in Japan). All 3 are better than the NX8, which has lessor glass and DOF issues from packing so much into such a small package. I also hate the spinning occular on the NF. Its a dumb design that needs to die.

I dont see the point of the 20x scopes unless they are small and light for hunting/crossovers. Might as well get the top end magnification since the vast majority of shooter alot of us do is 15x and above anyway. Even my hunting gun stays around 15-18x.
I orignally was considering the 525 atacr. But after feedback I am no longer considering. So I got something from this. Nightforce is now on expertvoice for veterans, so you can get them new for 2500 now. Pricing was secret but now its advertised on expertvoice. My orginal post was I can get the DMR for 1200, the ATACR was around 1800 for 525, but now I am considering the 420 because it is a cross over gun. ZCO still gives statement of not to disclose pricing. But ZCO was the largest jump in price and I was curious if you get that much more with the jump in price if you compare say a 420 atacr and the 420 zco. I am no longer considering the DMR.
 
I orignally was considering the 525 atacr. But after feedback I am no longer considering. So I got something from this. Nightforce is now on expertvoice for veterans, so you can get them new for 2500 now. Pricing was secret but now its advertised on expertvoice. My orginal post was I can get the DMR for 1200, the ATACR was around 1800 for 525, but now I am considering the 420 because it is a cross over gun. ZCO still gives statement of not to disclose pricing. But ZCO was the largest jump in price and I was curious if you get that much more with the jump in price if you compare say a 420 atacr and the 420 zco. I am no longer considering the DMR.
I had the 4-20 atacr. I didn’t feel it was a jump in glass over the 4-16 it replaced. Nothing I noticed anyways. The ZCO 527 is a definite step up from the 4-20 atacr. The ZCO 4-20 is supposed to be even better but I haven’t looked through one. My 4-20 did tunnel a bit as well. Think it was more of a 5.5-20
 
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I had the 4-20 atacr. I didn’t feel it was a jump in glass over the 4-16 it replaced. Nothing I noticed anyways. The ZCO 527 is a definite step up from the 4-20 atacr. The ZCO 4-20 is supposed to be even better but I haven’t looked through one. My 4-20 did tunnel a bit as well. Think it was more of a 5.5-20
I wouldn’t necessarily say my ZCO420 is “better” than my 527, from a performance standpoint. I do prefer the 420, but I think so many good things are said about the shorter & smaller objective 420 because it hangs so well with the bigger/longer scopes - not necessarily because the 420 actually outperforms the 527.
 
For PRS, the G3 Razor is an easy choice for me
1) EBR-7D is superior to the busier Mil-XT for field matches, although I still like the Mil-XT
2) NF has capped windage (NF beauty ring is dumb)
3) resetting G3R zero is so fast, NF ZeroStop outdated & too slow (esp. if you have to dial down)
4) G3R has better DOF
5) G3R parallax actually tracks yardage markings and NF is way off, so G3R can be set fairly accurately before getting on glass (NF requires you be familiar w/ markings if you want to do this)
6) no daytime bright illumination on NF, if you care
7) NF's rotating diopter, if you care

735 ATACR does have slightly better glass, but you really have to dial to max elevation, take it out to 1 mile to notice, or run them @ high magnification (G3R really sucks above 30x). None of that matters for PRS or NRL Hunter. Also, image quality is so close @ 20x it took me about 20mins to come to the conclusion that the ATACR edged out the G3R, but many commenters in the G3R thread circa 2022 that agree here. FOV @ 20x is comparable ~20.5mrad for ATACR, ~21.25mrad for G3R. Haven't had the G3R in heavy mirage or poor lighting conditions yet.

Take into account sample variance & I'm new to using the G3R on my gun
After more use, the only things I'll add to the above are:

8) EBR-7D > Mil-XT for all use cases (still like the Mil-XT though)
9) 735 ATACR noticeably outperforms G3R in low light and mirage
10) G3R is pretty dim above 30x... I ran it at 36x for the first 3 stages in a match (didn't zoom back out after zeroing because I'm dumb) & I noticed because of how dim everything was, not because of the magnification
11) I can get behind an ATACR easier & my natural POA is nearly dead on target and effortless... with the G3R I'm usually way off. This is a "me" issue, but I haven't been able to train around/past it. If I can't resolve this, I'll be switching back to a 735 ATACR or ZCO until ~2026

Given the weight & size of a G3R, I can't imagine running it on a hunting rifle... not sure why people are recommending it. That said, the 735 ATACR is a fatty @ only 6oz lighter & I'm running mine on a hunting rifle without complaints
 
After more use, the only things I'll add to the above are:

8) EBR-7D > Mil-XT for all use cases (still like the Mil-XT though)
9) 735 ATACR noticeably outperforms G3R in low light and mirage
10) G3R is pretty dim above 30x... I ran it at 36x for the first 3 stages in a match (didn't zoom back out after zeroing because I'm dumb) & I noticed because of how dim everything was, not because of the magnification
11) I can get behind an ATACR easier & my natural POA is nearly dead on target and effortless... with the G3R I'm usually way off. This is a "me" issue, but I haven't been able to train around/past it. If I can't resolve this, I'll be switching back to a 735 ATACR or ZCO until ~2026

Given the weight & size of a G3R, I can't imagine running it on a hunting rifle... not sure why people are recommending it. That said, the 735 ATACR is a fatty @ only 6oz lighter & I'm running mine on a hunting rifle without complaints
Your #9 is the reason that I am considering the Atacr 7-35. I often must shoot in strong mirage conditions.

Well, that and the fact that my NX8 4-32 is pretty amazing compared to my G2 razors and S&B 5-25. Hangs right in there and beats them in one weird mirage condition thus far. I need to test mirage performance more.

I think if I was spending ZCO 5-27 money I’d just go S&B 6-36, honestly, but that’s purely based on reviews I’ve read here. Not sure there’d be much between ZCO/S&B besides reticles, turrets, and mag range.

When I checked a few months ago you could’ve gotten the NF 7-35 new for $3000 (ask for their best price) or even cheaper in the PX or demo at EO.

I’m no NF fanboy. I prefer Vortex’s locking turrets and reticles.
 
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I recently fell in lust with the fde 420. Can’t explain it, just don’t shoot enough to justify snagging one.

The hunter model is slick looking, but I don’t think it is available in the US?
 
After more use, the only things I'll add to the above are:

8) EBR-7D > Mil-XT for all use cases (still like the Mil-XT though)
9) 735 ATACR noticeably outperforms G3R in low light and mirage
10) G3R is pretty dim above 30x... I ran it at 36x for the first 3 stages in a match (didn't zoom back out after zeroing because I'm dumb) & I noticed because of how dim everything was, not because of the magnification
11) I can get behind an ATACR easier & my natural POA is nearly dead on target and effortless... with the G3R I'm usually way off. This is a "me" issue, but I haven't been able to train around/past it. If I can't resolve this, I'll be switching back to a 735 ATACR or ZCO until ~2026

Given the weight & size of a G3R, I can't imagine running it on a hunting rifle... not sure why people are recommending it. That said, the 735 ATACR is a fatty @ only 6oz lighter & I'm running mine on a hunting rifle without complaints
Also, I infer from your posts that the NF 7-35 is less dark from 30-35x than the G3 is from 30-36x?

Either way, how would you subjectively compare them in that specific mag range? Eyebox, resolution, whatever.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
735 ATACR maintains higher levels of contrast & IQ at higher magnifications. That said, it's not until sub-optimal conditions that you can really tell much of a difference (heavy overcast, mirage). In good to fair lighting conditions, my G3R barely begins to haze out 33-36x & details on shadowed objects disappear a little more. The difference here is so negligible that if you were dissatisfied with the G3R IQ, you'd be equally dissatisfied with the 735 ATACR IQ as well. In very good lighting conditions, you're splitting hairs. I think you'd have to run a full blown optical test to discern any differences.

Also, the 735 ATACR must have one of the shortest depths of field in its price range. If you don't dial parallax a 735 ATACR, you're not going to resolve fine details well at all. In that situation, the G3R would actually outperform... it has a long depth of field that you just dial & forget.

Finally, since you're asking about higher magnifications, the Mil-XT is at its worst at high magnification. Half of your image is cluttered & everything about the reticle is just too thick. I'm starting to wonder if all these tree reticles are a fad, but that's a tangent for another thread
 
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All that said, the 735 ATACR must have one of the shortest depths of field in its price range. If you don't dial parallax a 735 ATACR, you're not going to resolve fine details well at all.
This might be ok for me as I’m shooting smallish rodents (prairie dogs). At 450 yds they can be a bitch to pick out against their terrain.

The NX8 4-32 also seems to have a very narrow DOF whereas my G2 and S&B 5-25 decidedly do not.

the Mil-XT is at its worst at high magnification. Half of your image is cluttered & everything about the reticle is just too thick. I'm starting to wonder if all these tree reticles are a fad, but that's a tangent for another thread
My NX8 4-32 also has this reticle, and it’s even thicker than the 7-35 NF (.36 vs .33mils).

I am interested to see how both issues play out for me this summer in the field. I like tree reticles as I am a holdover kind of guy (speed), but want to venture into dialing so to have a cleaner view on the scope’s bottom half. Def not buying a 7-35 until I can confirm I can live with the 4-32.

Those little buggers can get a bit occluded by even the thin (.3mils) vortex EBR-2c reticle, and I think that’s probably the finest holdover reticle made for small rodent shooting. We’ll see.

If for nothing else, the 4-32 is nice for the target range.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
This might be ok for me as I’m shooting smallish rodents (prairie dogs). At 450 yds they can be a bitch to pick out against their terrain.

The NX8 4-32 also seems to have a very narrow DOF whereas my G2 and S&B 5-25 decidedly do not.


My NX8 4-32 also has this reticle, and it’s even thicker than the 7-35 NF (.36 vs .33mils).

I am interested to see how both issues play out for me this summer in the field. I like tree reticles as I am a holdover kind of guy (speed), but want to venture into dialing so to have a cleaner view on the scope’s bottom half. Def not buying a 7-35 until I can confirm I can live with the 4-32.

Those little buggers can get a bit occluded by even the thin (.3mils) vortex EBR-2c reticle, and I think that’s probably the finest holdover reticle made for small rodent shooting. We’ll see.

If for nothing else, the 4-32 is nice for the target range.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
I bought an NX8 last year. For the price it is not a bad scope. I prefer my SB, the DT turrets are pretty cool. It sits on a desert tech SRS A2 so the gun needed a short 320 scope. I may have gotten a exception but the glass in my V6 5-30 is cystal clear. Better than the SB and right there with a TT I looked through. Sunny day comparison. If the V6 glass is that good in other scopes and I didnt just get a exception I would consider an s5. But I heard a guy saying his had issues holding zero. That is what is so hard about picking a new scope. I do not mind spending the money but I want to make sure it checks all the boxes, and from experience you usally have to buy 2 different models to check all the boxes.
 
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After more use, the only things I'll add to the above are:

8) EBR-7D > Mil-XT for all use cases (still like the Mil-XT though)
9) 735 ATACR noticeably outperforms G3R in low light and mirage
10) G3R is pretty dim above 30x... I ran it at 36x for the first 3 stages in a match (didn't zoom back out after zeroing because I'm dumb) & I noticed because of how dim everything was, not because of the magnification
11) I can get behind an ATACR easier & my natural POA is nearly dead on target and effortless... with the G3R I'm usually way off. This is a "me" issue, but I haven't been able to train around/past it. If I can't resolve this, I'll be switching back to a 735 ATACR or ZCO until ~2026

Given the weight & size of a G3R, I can't imagine running it on a hunting rifle... not sure why people are recommending it. That said, the 735 ATACR is a fatty @ only 6oz lighter & I'm running mine on a hunting rifle without complaints
Thanks for listing out your experience. That helps give more insight. I started this post to get thoughts on a mid mag scope. The gun I am putting it on is a 308 with a 20 inch barrel. I think a 735 atacr would be to much for this gun. I could move some scopes around and put the atacr on a different gun. Do you have any comparisons of the 420 Atacr and 525 atacr. I would like the 420 Atacr but the 525 is less than a hundred bucks difference and you get 5 more magnification. But if someone could tell me the 420 has much better glass and more forgiving parallax id go the 420 direction. Most people have been saying the 525 sucks compared to the 735.
 
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@carbonbased I've never taken my G3R out in last light before, as it's just not a hunting scope for me. Vortex clearly designed the G3R for field matches & they really nailed it, especially considering the price point.

Mostly clear skies, spotted clouds. Both scopes @ 35x magnification only, ATACR has a sunshade, G3R does not. Observing tree limbs/bark, grass, barbed wire @ 700 yards, time from sunset:

-40min
735 ATACR resolving details slightly better.
G3R beginning to lose contrast but still fairing pretty well.

-20min
735 ATACR still resolving details on objects that are lit by ambient light and unlit in the shadows. Individual tree leaves remain distinct, even in shadows.
G3R has noticeably lost contrast, more difficult to observe tree bark & barbed wire in shadowed areas under trees. Tree leaves beginning to blur together.

-10min
735 ATACR largely same as above. Individual blades of unshadowed grass distinguishable.
G3R has lost significant contrast, warmth/yellows gone, image has greyed out. Tree leaves in shadows have blurred into larger masses, causing loss of depth perception in shadows. Shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass slightly more difficult to see, no dimension to wire perceivable (just a flat grey line). Unshadowed grass beginning to blur.

+0min
735 ATACR losing contrast, leaves in shadows beginning to blur/merge. Tree bark in shadows difficult to perceive, but some still slightly visible. Beginning to lose depth perception in shadowed areas. Shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass still visible, but no dimension to wire perceivable (just a flat grey line). Unshadowed grass beginning to blur.
G3R not doing so hot... shadowed tree leaves completely blurred/merged, no depth perception in shadows. Shadowed tree bark no longer visible. Some shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass no longer visible. Unshadowed grass blurred.

+10min
735 ATACR still resolving some of the shadowed tree bark. Noticeable loss of depth perception in shadowed areas. Would be able to see at least the outline of an animal in the shadows. Unshadowed grass mostly blurred.
G3R Woof. Shadowed areas very dark, no details, very few outlines. No detail in unshadowed grass. You could still make a clean shot on a target in the open, no question, but absolutely no chance of seeing a coyote sitting or deer laying down in the shadows.

+20min
735 ATACR shadowed areas too dark to see much of anything, only tree trunks. Could make a clean shot on target in the open.
G3R Shadowed areas completely dark, can't see anything. Would have difficulty distinguishing different kinds of motionless animals out in the open by shape alone. I would pass on any shot.

+30min
735 ATACR can barely resolve individual tree trunks, H-brace, & the white tops of T-posts. Although you could see the outline of an animal out in the open, I don't know that I'd be able to distinguish a calf from a deer. Taking any shot would be unethical.
G3R no joke:
1w0tn5kq5m661.jpg


"shadowed areas" means open/unobstructed areas underneath trees with heavy leaf coverage and no direct light.

TLDR; the G3R loses a given level of resolution 10-15min before the 735 ATACR.

The only other 2 comparisons I'd like to make are shooting into the sun & spotting another shooter to see how well each resolves the impacts on plate & spall.
 
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I bought an NX8 last year. For the price it is not a bad scope. I prefer my SB, the DT turrets are pretty cool. It sits on a desert tech SRS A2 so the gun needed a short 320 scope. I may have gotten an exception but the glass in my V6 5-30 is cystal clear. Better than the SB and right there with a TT I looked through. Sunny day comparison. If the V6 glass is that good in other scopes and I didnt just get an exception I would consider an s5. But I heard a guy saying his had issues holding zero. That is what is so hard about picking a new scope. I do not mind spending the money but I want to make sure it checks all the boxes, and from experience you usally have to buy 2 different models to check all the boxes.
Lots of scopes will look similar if you’re just taking a peak on a sunny day. If your V6 is on par with a Tangent, that Tangent probably needs serviced. Take the time to set up diopters, put them in challenging lighting conditions or mirage at distance, and you’ll have a much better idea of what’s what.

I’d also take a lot of the zero retention internet talks with a grain of salt.
 
Most people have been saying the 525 sucks compared to the 735.
I've never used a 4-20 ATACR so I can't comment. The 525 does suck compared to the 735, it's basically a different product line. I can't think of another scope that deviates so far in quality from where it should fall within its specific product line.

If you're worried about the weight, size, or cost of a 735, I get it... you can't change any of those features (although recently there have been some pretty great deals on used 735's in the PX). Also consider that no scopes perform their best at the top of their magnification range & you don't have to run them there. I typically run my 735 ATACR at 20-22x, regardless of what distance I'm shooting.
 
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@carbonbased I've never taken my G3R out in last light before, as it's just not a hunting scope for me. Vortex clearly designed the G3R for field matches & they really nailed it, especially considering the price point.

Mostly clear skies, spotted clouds. Both scopes @ 35x magnification only, ATACR has a sunshade, G3R does not. Observing tree limbs/bark, grass, barbed wire @ 700 yards, time from sunset:

-40min
735 ATACR resolving details slightly better.
G3R beginning to lose contrast but still fairing pretty well.

-20min
735 ATACR still resolving details on objects that are lit by ambient light and unlit in the shadows. Individual tree leaves remain distinct, even in shadows.
G3R has noticeably lost contrast, more difficult to observe tree bark & barbed wire in shadowed areas under trees. Tree leaves beginning to blur together.

-10min
735 ATACR largely same as above. Individual blades of unshadowed grass distinguishable.
G3R has lost significant contrast, warmth/yellows gone, image has greyed out. Tree leaves in shadows have blurred into larger masses, causing loss of depth perception in shadows. Shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass slightly more difficult to see, no dimension to wire perceivable (just a flat grey line). Unshadowed grass beginning to blur.

+0min
735 ATACR losing contrast, leaves in shadows beginning to blur/merge. Tree bark in shadows difficult to perceive, but some still slightly visible. Beginning to lose depth perception in shadowed areas. Shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass still visible, but no dimension to wire perceivable (just a flat grey line). Unshadowed grass beginning to blur.
G3R not doing so hot... shadowed tree leaves completely blurred/merged, no depth perception in shadows. Shadowed tree bark no longer visible. Some shadowed barbed wire in front of unshadowed grass no longer visible. Unshadowed grass blurred.

+10min
735 ATACR still resolving some of the shadowed tree bark. Noticeable loss of depth perception in shadowed areas. Would be able to see at least the outline of an animal in the shadows. Unshadowed grass mostly blurred.
G3R Woof. Shadowed areas very dark, no details, very few outlines. No detail in unshadowed grass. You could still make a clean shot on a target in the open, no question, but absolutely no chance of seeing a coyote sitting or deer laying down in the shadows.

+20min
735 ATACR shadowed areas too dark to see much of anything, only tree trunks. Could make a clean shot on target in the open.
G3R Shadowed areas completely dark, can't see anything. Would have difficulty distinguishing different kinds of motionless animals out in the open by shape alone. I would pass on any shot.

+30min
735 ATACR can barely resolve individual tree trunks, H-brace, & the white tops of T-posts. Although you could see the outline of an animal out in the open, I don't know that I'd be able to distinguish a calf from a coyote. Taking any shot would be unethical.
G3R no joke:
1w0tn5kq5m661.jpg


"shadowed areas" means open/unobstructed areas underneath trees with heavy leaf coverage and no direct light.

TLDR; the G3R loses a given level of resolution 10-15min before the 735 ATACR.

The only other 2 comparisons I'd like to make are shooting into the sun & spotting another shooter to see how well each resolves the impacts on plate & spall.
Wow, that's quite a complete low-light analysis! Bravo!

I guess I should've mentioned I shoot these critters in the blazing hot summer sun, as they hide if it's cloudy. Thus, I am eager to read your future "shooting into the sun" comparo. For me, I think mirage and flare performance is where scopes will separate themselves.

The last-light hunters will surely appreciate your above comparison. I liked it and I'm not even the target audience.
 
I've never used a 4-20 ATACR so I can't comment. The 525 does suck compared to the 735, it's basically a different product line. I can't think of another scope that deviates so far in quality from where it should fall within its specific product line.

If you're worried about the weight, size, or cost of a 735, I get it... you can't change any of those features (although recently there have been some pretty great deals on used 735's in the PX). Also consider that no scopes perform their best at the top of their magnification range & you don't have to run them there. I typically run my 735 ATACR at 20-22x, regardless of what distance I'm shooting.
i jist do not think a 735 would look right on a 20 inch barreled rifle, but thanks for the info. really stinks 525 sucks, im curious about the 420, wonder if it sucks or the 416 atacr
 
i jist do not think a 735 would look right on a 20 inch barreled rifle, but thanks for the info. really stinks 525 sucks, im curious about the 420, wonder if it sucks or the 416 atacr

i jist do not think a 735 would look right on a 20 inch barreled rifle, but thanks for the info. really stinks 525 sucks, im curious about the 420, wonder if it sucks or the 416 atacr
D33EDC5A-8531-4F98-A8CC-79A44E894CB4.jpeg

Looks ok to me, but tastes vary. ATCAR 7-35 on Craddock 20” upper.
 
Bought and sold a new Razor G3 because the mirage was absolutely crazy and those damn turrets would try to lock every time I went to dial. Mark 5 and/or ATACR is what I am running but I believe the real question in this thread is should he go MIL or MOA?
 
If you want a crossover scope from Nightforce, the 4-16x42 is the way to go IMO. It's a shame the 4-20 ATACR tunnels as bad as it does, otherwise it would be a good budget alternative to the 4-20 ZCO.

Personally, I prefer everything about my ZCO420 over my 4-16 ATACR. For a crossover scope, I also prefer the ZCO420 over my TT315M, Kahles, Mark 5, AMG, Bushy Elite, et cetera, et cetera.
 
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If you want a crossover scope from Nightforce, the 4-16x42 is the way to go IMO. It's a shame the 4-20 ATACR tunnels as bad as it does, otherwise it would be a good budget alternative to the 4-20 ZCO.

Personally, I prefer everything about my ZCO420 over my 4-16 ATACR. For a crossover scope, I also prefer the ZCO420 over my TT315M, Kahles, Mark 5, AMG, Bushy Elite, et cetera, et cetera.

I can't wait to run a ZC420 after running the fantastic ZC527 :)
 
I can't wait to run a ZC420 after running the fantastic ZC527 :)
It's a little hard for me to explain, but I do prefer my 420 over my 527. Maybe there's a little sample variance too as I think the controls on my 420 are a little better. Optically, the 420 hangs so well with my 527 that it's pretty hard to tell a difference. Plus, I'm not a mag whore and rarely go over 18x, so that probably has something to do with it as well for me.

I've said it a ton of times, but if ZCO would put out a ZCO420H and cut 8oz, similar to how Tangent has a Marksmen that weigh ~8oz less than their Professional, it would be THE crossover scope. I'd dump my Tangent and ATACR, and maybe even my current 420 :eek:
 
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