Went shooting earlier today and took my R700 223 Wylde with a 28" Bartlein 8 twist shooting 75g ELDMs at 3000fps with 24.7gn N540 in Lapua brass and Rem 7.5 primers at .025" off. I wanted to see what a 10 shot group off the bench would look like. About 70 degrees, 1-2 mph winds, little bit of mirage, but not bad. The result was approximately a 2.5" group. Now if I was to cherry pick, I'd say the 5 shot cluster was from 1 group, and the other 5 were from another, but that's not how it went haha. With that said, how happy would you be if this was your rifle? Would you try to further improve on this, or just load them all up and just shoot? I definitely feel the rifle is capable of more, whether it be a different bullet or powder, maybe tune the current load as the numbers on the Garmin aren't to promising with the ES/SD. I also put the last 5 rounds on a 2/3 ISPC target into approx 3" at 500 yards to end the day.
223 at 300 and 500
- Thread starter kyotekiller25
- Start date
I'm guilty of wanting 0.5 moa or better but you can sure have fun with what you have there.
I feel the same, just not sure if you can expect that with 10 shot groups across the board? It will do 1/2 MOA for 3 and 5 shot groups, but this was the first time I did a 10. Its a HV contour and rifle weighs like 16# or so. It's mainly just a coyote and LR steel plinker out to 1K. I've pretty much done everything with this particular rifle/bullet/powder/seating depth combo. Tried 5 powders and did ladders at 300 yards to start off with the 75g ELDMs, IMR8208XBR, Benchmark, IMR4895, H4895, and N540. H4895 and N540 were the 2 best, but i only have 1# of H4895 left and cant find it locally anymore, so went the N540 route and bought 8# keg of it. I worked up the N540 in .1g increments, did seating depth test from lands to 40 off in .005" increments. Not sure what else to do with it at this point. It's dang close to being 3/4 MOA for 10 shots at 300, so it's not horrible, but I think the rifle is capable of 1.5" or 1/2 MOA with the right bullet/powder. These 75g ELDMs have always been pretty picky in this rifle. I haven't tried any other bullets as I just had planned on and intended these to shoot really well, so I bought 15 boxes to start with. I did however just buy 1 box of 80.5g Bergers just to see how much better they'd be over the Hornadys. Not a BR rifle by any means, but always like to try and wring out the best of things.
Well first of all, if that was my group, I wouldn't be happy with the ES. You need to work on your reloading to get improved groups. I aim for a 30ish ES on a 30 shot string.
I agree. I have read some where the 223 is pretty hard to get low ES/SD numbers, but this is trash, doesn't shoot bad though.
It's 1x fired lapua brass, FL sized with a Redding bushing die, .002" bump and .002" neck tension. Powder was weighed individually with an RCBS balance beam scale. Bullets were seated with a Forster micrometer ultra seater with a +/- .001" CBTO.
Any recommendations?
It's 1x fired lapua brass, FL sized with a Redding bushing die, .002" bump and .002" neck tension. Powder was weighed individually with an RCBS balance beam scale. Bullets were seated with a Forster micrometer ultra seater with a +/- .001" CBTO.
Any recommendations?
Did you use a mandrel after FL sizing? If not, I recommend doing so (remove your expander ball). Then, use dry graphite neck lube or NeoLube #2 to uniform the seating force.
Lastly, though it won't do much on the second firing, going forward, look at annealing your brass.
The group size is pretty good, but as you stretch out your distance, the big SD will really come into play.
If you haven't watched this video, I recommend doing so. It brings to light the impact of SDs at range and what using a mandrel and neck lube can do for you.
The accuracy is perfectly acceptable. The ES and SD would be a concern of mine for sure. At about 6-700 yards that is going to become extremely noticeable. Obviously up close it matters much less.
I think a good question to ask yourself, is do you want to invest the time to go down this rabbit hole? If not, keep up what you're doing but understand that the further out you go the worse it is going to get until you control the ES and SD. Surprisingly, the .223 is one of the more difficult cartridges to reign in (for me).
I think a good question to ask yourself, is do you want to invest the time to go down this rabbit hole? If not, keep up what you're doing but understand that the further out you go the worse it is going to get until you control the ES and SD. Surprisingly, the .223 is one of the more difficult cartridges to reign in (for me).
You went through a good list of the powders, did you try one of the other popular bullets?
Usually a well built rig like what you described will hold 20 or more shots inside the 10 on the F target, with many guns that can keep them inside the X ring at 300 when driven by skilled shooters. Even 300 yards takes some time to master.
Maybe give the 77 SMK TMK a look just to see if there is any low hanging fruit. Sometimes, it is the bullet that a rig likes and only a test will tell.
Try a Pet Load like 23 - 23.5 Varget and just use your 0.020 - 0.025 jump with the above advice and see if it shows any promise.
Usually a well built rig like what you described will hold 20 or more shots inside the 10 on the F target, with many guns that can keep them inside the X ring at 300 when driven by skilled shooters. Even 300 yards takes some time to master.
Maybe give the 77 SMK TMK a look just to see if there is any low hanging fruit. Sometimes, it is the bullet that a rig likes and only a test will tell.
Try a Pet Load like 23 - 23.5 Varget and just use your 0.020 - 0.025 jump with the above advice and see if it shows any promise.
I have not tried any other bullets yet. Got a box of Berger 80.5s to try. Already invested in 15 boxes of the 75 ELDMs...I don't have any Varget to do a comparison there, closest I have is H4895, but only have 1# of it left, so not really wanting to develop a load for it.
I'll try and tweak a thing or two here with it over time I'm sure, see if I can get it down to 1.5-2" mark for 10 shots at 300. But as it is, I think it should work ok for coyotes, and steel out to a solid 800 yards.
It's not a bad rig. I tried to have it built as a 1K trainer based off my 6CM and 7-300 builds. They both wear A5s and 27-28" heavy barrels w/brakes and weigh 16-17# This 223 has a S&B PMII 12-50x56 on it.
I'll try and tweak a thing or two here with it over time I'm sure, see if I can get it down to 1.5-2" mark for 10 shots at 300. But as it is, I think it should work ok for coyotes, and steel out to a solid 800 yards.
It's not a bad rig. I tried to have it built as a 1K trainer based off my 6CM and 7-300 builds. They both wear A5s and 27-28" heavy barrels w/brakes and weigh 16-17# This 223 has a S&B PMII 12-50x56 on it.
This is me guessing from all the threads I've read on the subject, but sounds like the 75gr ELD-Ms are kind of shit.
A great BC and can shoot well, but not very consistent and are generally more sensitive than other bullets.
My Tikka likes 75gr BTHPs and really likes 73gr ELD-Ms, but the 75s were a lot more picky.
It almost seemed like the 80gr ELD-Ms were the better bullet for consistency and less sensitivity.
A great BC and can shoot well, but not very consistent and are generally more sensitive than other bullets.
My Tikka likes 75gr BTHPs and really likes 73gr ELD-Ms, but the 75s were a lot more picky.
It almost seemed like the 80gr ELD-Ms were the better bullet for consistency and less sensitivity.
You may want to turn that load up a little bit. I'm running 24.9 N540 with the 80 ELD and load them long, 2.500"
The last time I was out, using LC brass, I was seeing 2881 average with an SD of 9. That was only 5 shots, and I don't remember the ES, but I want to say it was in the low 20s.
The last time I was out, using LC brass, I was seeing 2881 average with an SD of 9. That was only 5 shots, and I don't remember the ES, but I want to say it was in the low 20s.
About what my 700 Varmint (stock barrel) will do with 53 SMK. I tend to agree with @RegionRat that the 77 SMK is probably worth a try. Your ES can be responsible for about 1.2" vertical at 300yds so it may well be the issue here. N540 may be part of the issue. It's a double based powder and the single based powders typically are better for consistency. Other issueis are probably related to case prep.
That's been my opposite experience on my DTA with a 7.7tw barrel. The 75s were less picky than the 80s ELD-M.
Of course all these problems went away when I switched to the Berger 80.5, the true patrician 224 bullet.
I'll try the 80.5 with N540, it's what I got...
Going to use the balance beam for these also.
My throat was set up with an extra .020" freebore over the standard Wylde chamber, so with the 75g ELDM I'm at the lands at 2.510" Still fits and cycles just fine in the poly MDT mags. I shoot them at .025" off though at 2.485" as that's where they shot the best with seating depth test.
I can't go much higher on the load. 25.5g N540 is about absolute max in this rifle at 3075fps. There maybe a node at 25.3g around 3040-3050fps from initial testing, but that's to close to the ragged edge for me, especially in summer when it gets 90-100.
Going to use the balance beam for these also.
My throat was set up with an extra .020" freebore over the standard Wylde chamber, so with the 75g ELDM I'm at the lands at 2.510" Still fits and cycles just fine in the poly MDT mags. I shoot them at .025" off though at 2.485" as that's where they shot the best with seating depth test.
I can't go much higher on the load. 25.5g N540 is about absolute max in this rifle at 3075fps. There maybe a node at 25.3g around 3040-3050fps from initial testing, but that's to close to the ragged edge for me, especially in summer when it gets 90-100.
Try anywhere from 24.5 - 25.0 N540 with the Berger 80.5 10-20 off the lands.
My 700 trainer build shot the 75gr ELD-M like hot ass (the bad kind) at every seating depth but .030 off. It went from a MOA load to a half-minute with just that depth. I tweaked it a bit more and it became a 3/8ths load...but that bullet in MY barrel is picky as all get out about seating depth.
Conversely, the 69 and 77gr SMK is boringly consistent in this barrel. Not 'lights out' accurate, but you kinda have to screw something up to shoot worse than a .6.
In my experience, the 75 and 80 ELD-M want to be close to the lands.
The only complaint that I have heard with N540 is that is burns hotter and can erode a barrel quicker. In a 223, I don't see that being an issue, and have had good succes with it.
Berger is always a more consistent choice over Hornady.
The only complaint that I have heard with N540 is that is burns hotter and can erode a barrel quicker. In a 223, I don't see that being an issue, and have had good succes with it.
Berger is always a more consistent choice over Hornady.
I was about to pipe up then remembered I am still shooting 75 a max. 
I'm on my last box of 500. My 223AI loves them.I was about to pipe up then remembered I am still shooting 75 a max.
I shoot more 53 v max than anything else in 223. Last few years it's been lots more .204 34g noslers.
Change powder. N540 is a double based and more temp sensitive and less consistent than N140.
I lost 200 ft./s with the 180ELD compared to the 75ELD. It is not merely a scaled up bullet. It has a much longer bearing surface and I think that caused increased friction and decreased velocity compared to the 75.
I didn't tune anything. 24.5g of varget and .020 off the lands and I ran it. Shoots around 1/2 moa or less.
I agree, the SMK80 bullet is just as consistent and easy to tune as the Berger 80.5 but for me it was harder to get in stock meanwhile you can easily get couple of K of 80.5 same lot.
Especially if you have a long barrel might as well use varget and N140.
I keep my N540 for my hunting 223 because it yields a bit more speed but it’s not temp stable and you can see the velocity rising if you do long shooting strings on hot days.
The 75g ELDM is a much better bullet than the 80g in terms of weight/BC/speed. The 80 doesn't give enough BC or speed to gain anything over the 75. I tried a few of the 80g ELDMs in my initial ladder work ups and they were slower by about 100-150fps and didn't shoot as well as the 75 anyway, so I gave up on them real quick and concentrated on the 75s.
I don't typically shoot more than 3-5 rounds at a time, and I still wait 30 sec to a minute in-between shots. My barrels never really get hot or even warm for that matter. So hoping the N540 isn't to hard on my barrel in that aspect. I've got 7# of it left and almost 2K of the 75 ELDMs, so I'm kinda stuck with what I have for the next 5 years or so ha.
I don't typically shoot more than 3-5 rounds at a time, and I still wait 30 sec to a minute in-between shots. My barrels never really get hot or even warm for that matter. So hoping the N540 isn't to hard on my barrel in that aspect. I've got 7# of it left and almost 2K of the 75 ELDMs, so I'm kinda stuck with what I have for the next 5 years or so ha.
