• Winner! Quick Shot Challenge: What’s the dumbest shooting myth you’ve heard?

    View thread

Scope clarity question

S

snowplow

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 1, 2024
151
30
WA
#1
Hey guys, I ended up ordering a zero MOA scope mount for my setup. I have a Arken ep5. It has 110 mils of adjustment and on my AR-10 308 it would dial to about a thousand which works just fine for me. After you guys taught me that it would be more clear with a 20 MOA Mount since it would be in the center of the lens more, I decided to send this mount back and get the 20 MOA version. I now have a hunch they don't make that 20 moa version, although I'm still trying to confirm. Just curious if they don't have what I'm looking for, how much of a difference are we talking? Do you think a 20 moa mount would be quite noticeably more clear with this scope at range? Or is it more like, 'Yeah I think maybe it's a bit more clear, maybe'? Obviously what I'm getting at is if this is a huge deal I'll definitely change my plan to get something better. But if it's more technically clear but not so noticeably clear I'll probably just keep what I have.

Just trying to gauge how big a deal this is for the effort.

Do you guys have any insight for me?

Thanks as always for the help!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Taylorbok, BobinNC and John Glidewell
#7
Roger that. Good idea. It's not mounted so I didn't even think of looking through it like that. 😜
waveslayer said:
It also depends on the scope! The Syeiner Tx6 was famous for terrible outer field of view being sub par. My Swarovski was amazing.... my Arken is subpar. So scope dependant, but dial and you report back to us
Click to expand...
This is what l was thinking. Being an Arken not a Leupold l would imagine it is of greater consequence. Exactly how much, not sure.

I'll take s look.
 
  • Like
Reactions: waveslayer
#8
918v said:
What makes you think it doesn’t? All kinds of optical unpleasantness happens when you max out the elevation.
Click to expand...
I haven’t necessarily seen that with my optics, but I can understand it getting blurred around the edges, but I didn’t read that he was maxing out the elevation just that he would dial to 1000, I guess he was out of elevation at that range. I just thought he was meaning in general clarity, which there’s other factors that can hinder that.
 
#11
I mean it stands to reason if you push you erector tube to the max in any direction, it can have some less desirable outcomes. but I've been dealing in and studying optics since 2008 and this is the first time I've can remember hearing someone mention your mounting system can effect optical clarity. clarity is more in the optical system itself, and why I generally recommend buying a step above what you've budgeted for, you never regret having additional quality in your optics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
#12
JayOpticspecialist said:
I mean it stands to reason if you push you erector tube to the max in any direction, it can have some less desirable outcomes. but I've been dealing in and studying optics since 2008 and this is the first time I've can remember hearing someone mention your mounting system can effect optical clarity.
Click to expand...

If your mounting system forces the erector tube to the extreme of the adjustment range, then…
 
  • Like
Reactions: supercorndogs and Supersubes
#14
JayOpticspecialist said:
that still doesn't effect the optical system. it won't make it any clearer. in my mind i'm equating it to using an ARD or something else effect the performance of the scope, but it's not the optics.
Click to expand...
This is how I see it myself, yes the mount can make you adjust to the max range where you end up with a blurred optic but the clarity is what it is, it’s going to be blurred at the max end regardless of the mount, that’s just part of realizing what mount would be best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JayOpticspecialist
#15
JayOpticspecialist said:
that still doesn't effect the optical system. it won't make it any clearer. in my mind i'm equating it to using an ARD or something else effect the performance of the scope, but it's not the optics.
Click to expand...

If your current mount is forcing the erector tube to be maxed out, then it is making the image worse. Switching to a mount where the erector is not maxed out makes the image better. That’s why you should always buy more adjustment range than you need, so the erector operates away from the extremes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JakeM, supercorndogs and Im2bent
#16
918v said:
If your current mount is forcing the erector tube to be maxed out, then it is making the image worse. Switching to a mount where the erector is not maxed out makes the image better. That’s why you should always buy more adjustment range than you need, so the erector operates away from the extremes.
Click to expand...
I suppose, like cleaning the lenses if they are dirty helps, or removing an ard or sunshade, i guess it's like that, but it's not improving the clarity of the optical system itself.
 
#17
JayOpticspecialist said:
I suppose, like cleaning the lenses if they are dirty helps, or removing an ard or sunshade, i guess it's like that, but it's not improving the clarity of the optical system itself.
Click to expand...

Who cares if it affects the “clarity of the optical system?” It affects what your eye sees and that’s what matters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: snowplow
#18
918v said:
Who cares if it affects the “clarity of the optical system?” It affects what your eye sees and that’s what matters
Click to expand...

fair point. but to say the mounting system is improving clarity is incorrect. it's not going to make the glass any better or improve anything, other than removing something that is hindering performance. its just factually incorrect and could be misleading if misconstrued. sometimes people read these threads years after we've forgotten about them and it's important to have all the relevant information. I could use the best mount on a paper towel roll, but it'll still be a paper towel roll.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Landon4
#19
JayOpticspecialist said:
fair point. but to say the mounting system is improving clarity is incorrect. it's not going to make the glass any better or improve anything, other than removing something that is hindering performance. its just factually incorrect and could be misleading if misconstrued. sometimes people read these threads years after we've forgotten about them and it's important to have all the relevant information. I could use the best mount on a paper towel roll, but it'll still be a paper towel roll.
Click to expand...

Technically, by centering the erector you are improving the clarity of the optical system by lining up all the lenses, so there.
 
#20
918v said:
Technically, by centering the erector you are improving the clarity of the optical system by lining up all the lenses, so there.
Click to expand...
no, the lenses, coating, and the erector remains the same. the position of the erector tube just changes. if your looking out the window, you can look out the window from any position or angle, but it's still the same window. if the window is dirty, or has a screen, or blinds, sure that effects performance, if your looking at it while laying on the floor, sure it effects your perception of the window. but it's not going to change the window itself.

maybe it's just perception? comfort behind the optic? those are certainly factors but the glass and clarity remain the same.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
#22
JayOpticspecialist said:
no, the lenses, coating, and the erector remains the same. the position of the erector tube just changes. if your looking out the window, you can look out the window from any position or angle, but it's still the same window. if the window is dirty, or has a screen, or blinds, sure that effects performance, if your looking at it while laying on the floor, sure it effects your perception of the window. but it's not going to change the window itself.

maybe it's just perception? comfort behind the optic? those are certainly factors but the glass and clarity remain the same.
Click to expand...
What are you even arguing towards though? Getting a mount that puts the erector tube in a sub optimal position just to win an argument on clarity semantics?
 
  • Like
Reactions: supercorndogs, Supersubes and Im2bent
#24
spife7980 said:
What are you even arguing towards though? Getting a mount that puts the erector tube in a sub optimal position just to win an argument on clarity semantics?
Click to expand...
clarity in case in the future someone ready this thread, i don't want anyone to mistakenly think that changing your mount is going to improve your optical system's clarity. even if you believe real hard, it's the same tube, glass, and coatings. it's not changing anything. it's like thinking painting flames on your car makes it go faster.
 
#25
JayOpticspecialist said:
clarity in case in the future someone ready this thread, i don't want anyone to mistakenly think that changing your mount is going to improve your optical system's clarity. even if you believe real hard, it's the same tube, glass, and coatings. it's not changing anything. it's like thinking painting flames on your car makes it go faster.
Click to expand...
No, no its not you are just being pedantic. I don't care how fantastic the lenses are on your scope, clarity will be improved by removing the caps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: supercorndogs and spife7980
#26
JayOpticspecialist said:
i don't want anyone to mistakenly think that changing your mount is going to improve your optical system's clarity.
Click to expand...
Granted the OP’s original question was a bit muddled. I think the assumption is the scope is going to be as good as it possibly can out of the box, on a 0 MOA base, zeroed at 100. The erector may not even be centered with those parameters, but hey, 100yds is a good place to zero.

Perhaps a 0, or 5 or 10 or 15 MOA base on a rifle will get the erector centered at 100. Whatever it is, doesn’t matter.

The consensus explanation is just that any mount that moves the erector out of its center has a greater possibility of degrading the image presented to the users eye.

You seem to be arguing about the scope’s potential “clarity”. No one seems to be saying different MOA mounts affect that.
 
Last edited:
#27
Im2bent said:
No, no its not you are just being pedantic. I don't care how fantastic the lenses are on your scope, clarity will be improved by removing the caps.
Click to expand...
not trying to be, just trying to be clear. removing scope caps doesn't improve your clarity, the glass is the same, just removed an obstruction that wasn't allowing you to use them. it changes nothing, just like a mount does nothing to change optical clarity.
 
#28
carbonbased said:
Granted the OP’s original question was a bit muddled. I think the assumption is the scope is going to be as good as it possibly can out of the box, on a 0 MOA base, zeroed at 100. The erector may not even be centered with those parameters, but hey, 100yds is a good place to zero.

Perhaps a 0, or 5 or 10 or 15 MOA base on a rifle will get the erector centered at 100. Whatever it is, doesn’t matter.

The consensus explanation is just that any mount that moves the erector out of its center has a greater possibility of degrading the image presented to the users eye.

You seem to be arguing about the scope’s potential “clarity”. No one seems to be saying different MOA mounts affect that.
Click to expand...

my point is simple, mounts don't change optical clarity.
 
#29
JayOpticspecialist said:
clarity in case in the future someone ready this thread, i don't want anyone to mistakenly think that changing your mount is going to improve your optical system's clarity. even if you believe real hard, it's the same tube, glass, and coatings. it's not changing anything. it's like thinking painting flames on your car makes it go faster.
Click to expand...
Hi Jay - just a question....in a typical high power scope...like a 5-25 or 27....with the erector at full deflection, just how far is the center of the lenses offset from the center of the objective. I'm sort of thinking its a very small angle hence a very small offset from center and that any optical impact will be minimal.

And please do correct me if I'm wrong...being wrong is a constant condition of mine so I don't take offense when its pointed out! hahaha
 
  • Like
Reactions: JayOpticspecialist
#30
JayOpticspecialist said:
not trying to be, just trying to be clear. removing scope caps doesn't improve your clarity, the glass is the same, just removed an obstruction that wasn't allowing you to use them. it changes nothing, just like a mount does nothing to change optical clarity.
Click to expand...
Now you're just being obstinate. Removing the caps won't improve the view .... got it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: spife7980
#32
Baron23 said:
Hi Jay - just a question....in a typical high power scope...like a 5-25 or 27....with the erector at full deflection, just how far is the center of the lenses offset from the center of the objective. I'm sort of thinking its a very small angle hence a very small offset from center and that any optical impact will be minimal.

And please do correct me if I'm wrong...being wrong is a constant condition of mine so I don't take offense when its pointed out! hahaha
Click to expand...
thats a really good question. dependent of the manufacture. easy way would be to call said manufacture and ask. you can visually see it using a mirror, you can use a collimator. other than just asking those are the easiest ways. there is a way to do it with a caliper i've read about, but never done it myself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
#38
918v said:
You have gone from not affecting clarity to not affecting optical quality to “don’t effect glass.” None of this is helpful. Maybe you should read the OP and tell him what mount to get.
Click to expand...
morning,

I've already explained my position several times in several different ways. I'm always willing to help anyone with anything. messages are on, my email and cell are public and in my signature. the fact of the matter is, from the post, this isn't a mount issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
#39
9uy5cd.jpg


A specialist who can't answer the question because they are to busy being an expert. 🤣🤣🤣
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: ma smith, Secant, carbonbased and 2 others
#41
JayOpticspecialist said:
I mean it stands to reason if you push you erector tube to the max in any direction, it can have some less desirable outcomes. but I've been dealing in and studying optics since 2008 and this is the first time I've can remember hearing someone mention your mounting system can effect optical clarity. clarity is more in the optical system itself, and why I generally recommend buying a step above what you've budgeted for, you never regret having additional quality in your optics.
Click to expand...
So what would you call less desirable outcomes then?
 
#42
What nobody can answer…incl Jay and those who are busting his balls…is at max deflection angle of the erector tube, how far off of the center of the objective will result.

If it’s a minuscule amount, who cares. And no matter the amount, any negative and perceptible optical difference would also depend the specific objective design.

And it does seem to me that these are independent of the mount except to the degree the mount drives the shooter to dial to max erector deflection.

Ok, going back to my cave now. lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: JayOpticspecialist
#46
Wow that's a lot of posts arguing semantics.....

Dialing an erector away from the optical center, forces you to view an area farther from the center of the optical path and distortion increases generally the further away you get from the center of your FOV. The mount does not change the technical resolution of the scope, but the further you have to dial your elevation from the center of the optical center, the lower the resolution will get. You can control at what range you are looking through the center of your optical path by changing mount elevation.

I could get way more complex than this, but the reality would be at some point you are just doing math on what we in physics call a "spherical cow" anyway and it doesn't apply to reality aside in a very general way. How much that changes depends on tons of things, the distance, your optic, how much elevation you dial etc.

Spherical cow math is easy. You have a 100 foot FOV at 1000 yards, and you need to dial 32 MOA from a 100 yard zero to hit at 1000yds. So you have 50 feet below a perfect zero to play with, and you have to dial ~32 feet off from that center. That means you're ~65% away from the optical path center at that distance, probably not ideal.

Does that matter in your setup? Easy to check it yourself, leave your 100 yard zero, dial your magnification, and see what your eyes can resolve for detail, then dial 32 MOA in and do the same thing. Even easier if you just use the reticle leave your 100 yard zero and go down to 32 MOA on the reticle and compare the resolution through the optic to your eyes. It's not hard to tell there is going to be some degredation, just look at through scope images towards the edges. Usually the center third, or half is pretty good, but get to that last 1/4 toward the edge and most get pretty ugly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: carbonbased
#47
Baron23 said:
What nobody can answer…incl Jay and those who are busting his balls…is at max deflection angle of the erector tube, how far off of the center of the objective will result.

If it’s a minuscule amount, who cares. And no matter the amount, any negative and perceptible optical difference would also depend the specific objective design.

And it does seem to me that these are independent of the mount except to the degree the mount drives the shooter to dial to max erector deflection.

Ok, going back to my cave now. lol
Click to expand...

Take a NF scope and max out the elevation in either direction, looking at the turret height. The difference in height from the lowest to the highest position divided by two should be the offset from center.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
Will 20 MOA scope base affect optical clarity of scope if sighted in at 100 yards?
Replies
19
Views
1K
xsn10s
xsn10s
iflyskyhigh
Rifle Scopes Nightforce Ultralight Uni-mount & NX8
Replies
10
Views
390
iflyskyhigh
iflyskyhigh
S
How much should l spend
Replies
1
Views
152
oldrifleman
oldrifleman
S
Seekins hit precision 20 moa??
Replies
1
Views
84
diggler1833
diggler1833
D
30 MOA Cant for Vortex Razor Gen 3 6-36 x 56
Replies
18
Views
608
Kiba
K
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts