Night Vision N Vision still one of the best?

[Sgp12345]

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at thermals and within past year or so there are literally a shit ton of options that I’ve never seen or really heard of. I’ve always wanted a nox18 and the XRF.. are these still considered high end? Probably a dumb question as they obviously haven’t just turned to shit all of a sudden, but it seems there is way more talk about all these new budget thermal brands.

Maybe a better question would be are they still worth the $$ with all the options available?

I’m getting tired of buying what I don’t really want and then regretting it. Probably gone through 10+ thermals, last being a new Armasight 640 contractor. It was nice but I never thought image was all that great. In their defense, I sold before I did the firmware upgrade that was supposed to enhance the image
Thanks!

 

[Gasgun]

Since no one else has replied, I will give you my opinion based on my admittedly limited experience.
I have owned a Steiner C35 (Chinesium core) and currently own a NOX35.
I have time behind a Guide Sensmart and an Iray RH50R that are owned by friends.

Like anything else in the optics world, best depends on your priorities.

My NOX is mounted on a 14.5” AR pattern rifle in 5.56mm. Its intended use is 2-300 yds. max.
I wanted something small and light with an emphasis on image quality and sensitivity.
I had no interest in multiple color palettes, a range finder or onboard recording.
It weighs less than the LPVO that it replaced.

IQ is subjective in any optic, whether it’s a thermal or a day optic.
I much prefer the image from my NOX to that of any of the sights with Chinese cores that I have used.

My friend who owns the RH50R is happy with it. He wanted the features and was OK with the trade off with IQ and sensitivity.

Although the Nvision stuff has been out for a few years, I think that when it comes down to being able to see and identify things in the dark, it’s still tough to beat without spending a lot more money.

 

[Dogtown]

NOX is still good, USA made with BAE core - they’re just a bit chonky compared to others. The NOX35 is still a good option for a dedicated carbine used inside of 200m.

 

[Sgp12345]

Since no one else has replied, I will give you my opinion based on my admittedly limited experience.
I have owned a Steiner C35 (Chinesium core) and currently own a NOX35.
I have time behind a Guide Sensmart and an Iray RH50R that are owned by friends.

Like anything else in the optics world, best depends on your priorities.

My NOX is mounted on a 14.5” AR pattern rifle in 5.56mm. Its intended use is 2-300 yds. max.
I wanted something small and light with an emphasis on image quality and sensitivity.
I had no interest in multiple color palettes, a range finder or onboard recording.
It weighs less than the LPVO that it replaced.

IQ is subjective in any optic, whether it’s a thermal or a day optic.
I much prefer the image from my NOX to that of any of the sights with Chinese cores that I have used.

My friend who owns the RH50R is happy with it. He wanted the features and was OK with the trade off with IQ and sensitivity.

Although the Nvision stuff has been out for a few years, I think that when it comes down to being able to see and identify things in the dark, it’s still tough to beat without spending a lot more money.

Thanks for the reply

 

[5RWill]

Since no one else has replied, I will give you my opinion based on my admittedly limited experience.
I have owned a Steiner C35 (Chinesium core) and currently own a NOX35.
I have time behind a Guide Sensmart and an Iray RH50R that are owned by friends.

Like anything else in the optics world, best depends on your priorities.

My NOX is mounted on a 14.5” AR pattern rifle in 5.56mm. Its intended use is 2-300 yds. max.
I wanted something small and light with an emphasis on image quality and sensitivity.
I had no interest in multiple color palettes, a range finder or onboard recording.
It weighs less than the LPVO that it replaced.

IQ is subjective in any optic, whether it’s a thermal or a day optic.
I much prefer the image from my NOX to that of any of the sights with Chinese cores that I have used.

My friend who owns the RH50R is happy with it. He wanted the features and was OK with the trade off with IQ and sensitivity.

Although the Nvision stuff has been out for a few years, I think that when it comes down to being able to see and identify things in the dark, it’s still tough to beat without spending a lot more money.

Curious about your experience with the guide sensesmart. Saw the TB1250 LRF just came out and I’m dipping back into this but plan to stay this time around now that residency is almost over. Picked up a hydra which i think will be perfect for inside 300. Gonna run a 22 arc 250yd zero with 88s.

Thinking next year i wanna grab another. Say sig CV25 or maybe the new guide TB1259

 

[Sgp12345]

Curious about your experience with the guide sensesmart. Saw the TB1250 LRF just came out and I’m dipping back into this but plan to stay this time around now that residency is almost over. Picked up a hydra which i think will be perfect for inside 300. Gonna run a 22 arc 250yd zero with 88s.

Thinking next year i wanna grab another. Say sig CV25 or maybe the new guide TB1259

I feel like this reply sums up my question, or at least what I was trying to get at. So many high quality and cheaply priced options and seems n-vision isn’t really discussed a whole lot. As much as I want to finally get the high quality thermal I’ve wanted and not keep going down this path of getting what I don’t really want because it’s cheaper, I don’t want to overpay.

 

[5RWill]

I feel like this reply sums up my question, or at least what I was trying to get at. So many high quality and cheaply priced options and seems n-vision isn’t really discussed a whole lot. As much as I want to finally get the high quality thermal I’ve wanted and not keep going down this path of getting what I don’t really want because here

I’m in the same boat. When i got out from what little i had dipped into the thermal world Nvision was the best civilian use case for thermal. Them and IR defense. I come back and there are so many more options, pricing is despite the economy and tariffs insane, and the performance is actually good.

The other side of most of this is that the market is changing so rapidly it feels like dropping 6k on Nvision might not be worth it long run.

To put the discussion in perspective from all accounts I’ve seen. The hydra 640 while albeit bigger, compares directly to the iRay RH25 while costing less than half. That is wild considering what things used to cost. Hell i paid $2800 for my 320 pulsar unit 7 years ago.

 

[Sgp12345]

NOX is still good, USA made with BAE core - they’re just a bit chonky compared to others. The NOX35 is still a good option for a dedicated carbine used inside of 200m.

Thanks. At this point is it just USA vs China (or wherever else they are made)? Nox35 is around 6k I think, and there are a ton of thermals in that range. I really do want the quality, USA made, great warranty thermal, but I feel like I’ve missed the boat at this point as there are many high quality and cheaper thermals with great warranties (albeit not made in USA).

 

[5RWill]

Sig CV25 is about $4500 and lifetime warranty. It is on my list though now I’m leaning integrated LRF for ease of use.

 

[shoots100]

It depends on what features you want in a scope.
Some say Nvision is going the way of Trijicon and sitting on their laurels with civilian optics because they have military contracts that pay the bills.
Nvis optics have the bare bones of features compared to other optics, but I think they're far superior in image quality because of the fine adjustability and sensitivity of the BAE internals.
IMHO you can tweak an Nvis optic to get better image quality and the only optics that compare to them are the newer 1280 res scopes with HD displays.
More pixels equals more thermal image goodness and you can't get around that.

SJC

 

[kirsch]

Shoots100 hit the nail on the head. The Nvision thermals are better (in my opinion, and part of my job is testing thermals) in image quality than virtually all of the other 640s out there. The exception is potentially in ultra-high humidity. Features are another story as well as their form factor (at least in the Halo models). If you don't want Chinese, the other line up to look at besides Armasight (which you already did) is Pulsar. Their 60 series is really nice. If you move up into the XL series, the 1024 (HD) image is incredible. If you were looking at the NOX 18, unfortunately Pulsar doesn't have a small HMT.

 

[Sgp12345]

Shoots100 hit the nail on the head. The Nvision thermals are better (in my opinion, and part of my job is testing thermals) in image quality than virtually all of the other 640s out there. The exception is potentially in ultra-high humidity. Features are another story as well as their form factor (at least in the Halo models). If you don't want Chinese, the other line up to look at besides Armasight (which you already did) is Pulsar. Their 60 series is really nice. If you move up into the XL series, the 1024 (HD) image is incredible. If you were looking at the NOX, unfortunately Pulsar doesn't have a small HMT.

Thanks. I’ve owned a couple different 640 pulsars. The Talion had a great image, better than the Armasight in my opinion.

 

[Sgp12345]

It depends on what features you want in a scope.
Some say Nvision is going the way of Trijicon and sitting on their laurels with civilian optics because they have military contracts that pay the bills.
Nvis optics have the bare bones of features compared to other optics, but I think they're far superior in image quality because of the fine adjustability and sensitivity of the BAE internals.
IMHO you can tweak an Nvis optic to get better image quality and the only optics that compare to them are the newer 1280 res scopes with HD displays.
More pixels equals more thermal image goodness and you can't get around that.

SJC

I think the ruggedness of the nvision and trijicon is another reason in drawn to them, but at the expense of features as you said.

Ruggedness is important because can’t have it fail on me while I’m sitting out back shooting rodents and what not..

 

[tekmann2377]

NVIsion stuff is very good, and the cores are excellent. They are proven designs that are rugged. Some of the Chinese stuff is very good too.

I prefer simple and reliable. Whether a proven and rugged unit that is made in USA is worth it or not in terms of price premium is very individual.

 

[Bkultra]

Shoots100 hit the nail on the head. The Nvision thermals are better (in my opinion, and part of my job is testing thermals) in image quality than virtually all of the other 640s out there. The exception is potentially in ultra-high humidity.

Challenge accepted,

 

[5RWill]

So what yall are telling me is to not worry with the guide sensmart 1250 and just get a eotech ClipIR or a Vodoo. At the expense of my marriage of course

 

[Dogtown]

Voodoo is worth it!

 

[Bkultra]

Voodoo is worth it!

This was going to be my other example S or M @ 640, but alas I don't have pictures of those cuz I don't own one.

 

[Dogtown]

I got you...

 

[5RWill]

Do the Vodoo's have LRF capability?

 

[Dogtown]

They have MARS integration built-in, so if you have one of the MARS LRFs and the expensive cable, it'll feed data to the Voodoo display. Pretty much any combination of Range/Elevation/Windage and Disturbed Reticle. It also supports the RAPTAR variants, but I have no direct experience with that.

The Voodoo-MX (on the right) has integrated LRF with AB, so no need to hook it up to an LRF.



And that onboard LRF is top quality 1550nm and ranges plenty far...

 

[kirsch]

Challenge accepted,

View attachment 8727710

Yes, within reason. I am referring to other standard commercial weapon sight thermals. At 4x the price, I would hope the UTC-Xii would have an advantage.

 

[Bkultra]

Yes, within reason. I am referring to other standard commercial weapon sight thermals. At 4x the price, I would hope the UTC-Xii would have an advantage.

Price was never part of the original discussion. You mentioned software, form factor, but never price. At over a decade old it's amazing the UTC Xii still has "advantages". PoT is the Modern-Day variant that is readily available, updated software, and comes with a warranty.

Now if this is released anywhere near its rumored price and timeframe... Then this conversation may change

 

[Evolution 9]

I’ve owned several dozen thermals, ranging in price from $1900 to $21,000, from several manufacturers and several countries. None of them have a better image than N-Vision. For the most part, all the BAE core thermals produce the same great image, just packaged differently depending on the purpose (clip-on, stand alone, magnification, no magnification).

All the wizz-bang “features” from the Chinese ones never impressed me. Thermal IS the feature I care about!

POT for clip ons
N-Vision for stand alone… and supposedly very soon clip ons as well

The one exception I make is that popular Chinese RH25 is (for the price) pretty impressive. Id never suggest it to someone who could afford more, but it’s not half bad.

 

[BurtG]

dropping 6k on Nvision might not be worth it long run.

This is like computers. There is no long run.

Buy them and use them they are outdated the day you buy them.

Unless you buy something special like UTC / HISS / INOD / LWTS

 

[Evolution 9]

Or buy used. I’ll often let someone else enjoy that new thermal smell in exchange for a couple thousand dollars discount. Then when you sell it’s not a big hit. That’s how I’ve been able to experience so many thermals.

 

[Roadrace33]

Maybe i am uneducated or whatever, but what is the reason to buy a thermal of the nature of a UTC or a HISS at the civilian level? This is an honest question, truly. I coyote hunt at night in Illinois from November-March, and I've used just about every dedicated thermal scope i can get my hands on, and landed back on a Pulsar. I can make 700 yard shots, and it just works. These clip-ons in my eyes can definitely make much further shots attainable, but for me I'm very lucky to have a coyote or fox sit still for more than a few seconds to even attempt a longer shot let alone hope that it makes contact.

Like @BurtG said, they are outdated as soon as you walk outta the store with them.

What is the benefit of a clip-on of that nature? I totally get that you use your day scope, and can flip flop back and forth, but what is the real tangible benefit? I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on worthless racing equipment that gained me absolutely no advantage other than "It is badass to have" "It is what the teams at the top level use" , so i totally understand that viewpoint. I'm just trying to comprehend what is accomplished with the high of a level of clip-on.

Enlighten me

 

[BurtG]

Have you hunted in bad conditions. After rain. High humidity etc.

That’s what separates them out.


What pulsar are you using to make reliable 700 yard hits let alone PID ?

 

[Sgp12345]

Or buy used. I’ll often let someone else enjoy that new thermal smell in exchange for a couple thousand dollars discount. Then when you sell it’s not a big hit. That’s how I’ve been able to experience so many thermals.

Ended up buying a used NOX18 with crye nightcap and Wilcox mount for about $3300. Haven’t got it yet but happy so far.

 

[Roadrace33]

Have you hunted in bad conditions. After rain. High humidity etc.

That’s what separates them out.


What pulsar are you using to make reliable 700 yard hits let alone PID ?

Pulsar XG50 LRF. You can most definitely tell its a coyote. I have very good eyes, I'm sure that plays a role. I have videos, but the videos are total shit resolution when compared to real time through the lens.
I would say very little rain, all of mine is done right at the tail end of fall through winter. Typically low humidity, some rain but mostly snow. But throw in 70% + humidity, and you cant see shit. So i understand that the much better clip-ons can cut through humidity better.

I used the Nvision halo XRF for one season, and went back to pulsar. I hate the buttons on the pulsar with a passion, but IMO, it has better clarity. The pulsar 1024 was only marginally better than their 640. I did buy their 1280 binos tho, and they are nice.

Who has links to good videos out of the trijicon clip ons? I want to try one...

 

[Dogtown]

Maybe i am uneducated or whatever, but what is the reason to buy a thermal of the nature of a UTC or a HISS at the civilian level?

I don’t even hunt, so my excuses are pretty weak.

Part of it is that I’m a nerd for military electro-optics, and because the GWOT kicked off near the end of my Army career I didn’t get trigger time with any of this cool stuff. But I like to shoot steel really far, and have done plenty with NV clip-ons, but LWIR thermal really has trouble picking up unheated steel. MWIR is far more sensitive and can spot unheated still without much of an issue. Ironically, after I got the HISS-XLR I also got a much better electrical target heater setup, so it’s less of an issue. But when your goal is hitting steel at 1000+ yards on a moonless night in the sticks, the HISS-XLR owns. Not only is it more sensitive with far more control over image processing than any LWIR system I’ve seen, it’s got a 240mm FOV with 15x demag - it’s a long range dream.

All that being said, I fully recognize this is a complete and utter luxury position to have.

 

[CSTactical]

Price was never part of the original discussion. You mentioned software, form factor, but never price. At over a decade old it's amazing the UTC Xii still has "advantages". PoT is the Modern-Day variant that is readily available, updated software, and comes with a warranty.

Now if this is released anywhere near its rumored price and timeframe... Then this conversation may change

View attachment 8728265

I think we will be stocking these

Richard

 

[Dogtown]

For example, here's unheated steel through the HISS-XLR


Notice how it's grey like much of the background env, but still discernable. With LWIR, from my experience, it will just blend into the background and would be damned near impossible to locate. But heated stuff really jumps out....like those mice and rabbit. There is also something kind of special when you can see residual heat from impacts. Instead of "yay, you hit the target", you get "looks like you impacted left shoulder; come down zero point three and hold right edge."

 

[5RWill]

This is like computers. There is no long run.

Buy them and use them they are outdated the day you buy them.

Unless you buy something special like UTC / HISS / INOD / LWTS

True but it wasn’t moving this fast 6 years ago. Thats a big cyclical purchase less you’re Elon. Computer components can typically last 4-5 years though also despite silicon refresh every 6 months. Been building for 20 years now. That is somewhat diminishing as these manufacturers push for a cellphone like annual upgrade cycle but thermal can’t be that financially feasible and despite the advancements on the Chinese side the American stuff least from videos I’ve watched absolutely destroys it in IQ despite its lesser specs and in this case age for the aforementioned.

As long as it doesn’t degrade though i don’t see a problem. There will always be better as you say. I just want to get something that gives me clip on capability at 400-500yds that isn’t heavy and is clear with a lrf.

 

[Roadrace33]

I don’t even hunt, so my excuses are pretty weak.

Part of it is that I’m a nerd for military electro-optics, and because the GWOT kicked off near the end of my Army career I didn’t get trigger time with any of this cool stuff. But I like to shoot steel really far, and have done plenty with NV clip-ons, but LWIR thermal really has trouble picking up unheated steel. MWIR is far more sensitive and can spot unheated still without much of an issue. Ironically, after I got the HISS-XLR I also got a much better electrical target heater setup, so it’s less of an issue. But when your goal is hitting steel at 1000+ yards on a moonless night in the sticks, the HISS-XLR owns. Not only is it more sensitive with far more control over image processing than any LWIR system I’ve seen, it’s got a 240mm FOV with 15x demag - it’s a long range dream.

All that being said, I fully recognize this is a complete and utter luxury position to have.

Right on. That video is awesome. I would be extremely hard pressed to find anything in particular that is not heated, out of a standard dedicated thermal. The resolution is definitely much better too.

 

[Roadrace33]

I think we will be stocking these

Richard

I will be in contact whenever that day comes...