Mixing brass lots, same headstamp.

[stello1001]

Hey all,

I am curious, who mixes lots of brass with the same headstamp to load "match" or precision stuff with good success?

My OCD tells me not to do it but I'm not even sure it's a big deal. I bought some 308 lapua brass off the hide at a good deal. What I didn't realize was that I would be getting 2 or 3 different lots. Which is fine, it was a good deal, but it would make life easier if I could just mix all and not worry.

I also have my 6.5CM peterson brass which is 2 lots. I have them separate but same thing. If I could mix all and not notice any accuracy degradation, it would make things easier.

Thanks,

Serg

 

[marchboom]

Only way to test this is to shoot the different lots. Some manufacturers are very strict on their production. Others not so much. Let us know what your results are.

 

[stello1001]

Only way to test this is to shoot the different lots. Some manufacturers are very strict on their production. Others not so much. Let us know what your results are.

I'm going to at the very least weigh them and see how close they are from lot to lot.

 

[Fig]

Different lots of the same head-stamp brass don't matter squat. How many firings is really all that matters. You can sort by weight if you have to have an OCD fix, but you are altering it every time you shoot, trim, and resize it, so the specs are more dependent on your equipment than the unfired brass.

 

[RegionRat]

Hey all,

I am curious, who mixes lots of brass with the same headstamp to load "match" or precision stuff with good success?

My OCD tells me not to do it but I'm not even sure it's a big deal. I bought some 308 lapua brass off the hide at a good deal. What I didn't realize was that I would be getting 2 or 3 different lots. Which is fine, it was a good deal, but it would make life easier if I could just mix all and not worry.

I also have my 6.5CM peterson brass which is 2 lots. I have them separate but same thing. If I could mix all and not notice any accuracy degradation, it would make things easier.

Thanks,

Serg

Context matters.
Without knowing your specifics, and speaking only from a general sense of "can brass quality matter to accuracy", absolutely it does when we are getting near the state of the art.

Having said that, most shooting is not near state of the art and the brass lot differences might be in the noise for that context.

So, you will have to decide based on your own context.

Does your case volume and neck tension matter? If yes, then wait to test before you aggregate that brass.

If your shooting isn't sensitive to your case volume and neck tension, you may still want to learn how much is too much before it shows on the target.

As an example... Service Rifle shooters can get away with near murder at the 200/300 yard lines with their ammo, but then things start to change by the time we are discussing the 600 yard line.
If we use the old LC brass as a paradigm, many times the lot batches were made well enough it could be mixed, but other times a given shooter's problems were traced to their mixed-lot brass and the solution was to change to a fresh uniform batch.
YMMV

 

[Maurygold]

Hey all,

I am curious, who mixes lots of brass with the same headstamp to load "match" or precision stuff with good success?

My OCD tells me not to do it but I'm not even sure it's a big deal. I bought some 308 lapua brass off the hide at a good deal. What I didn't realize was that I would be getting 2 or 3 different lots. Which is fine, it was a good deal, but it would make life easier if I could just mix all and not worry.

I also have my 6.5CM peterson brass which is 2 lots. I have them separate but same thing. If I could mix all and not notice any accuracy degradation, it would make things easier.

Thanks,

Serg

You will not be able to tell the difference. If you were a high level benchrest shooter with custom reamers and a $2k rest - maybe you would, short of that I’m sure you shouldn’t worry

 

[Ledzep]

I wouldn't do it. As was mentioned above, testing the individual lots separately is the only way you can have confidence in it. Once it's mixed it's a real bastard (potentially impossible?) to sort.

Hornady, for example, has several different "lines" that produce brass and there are minor differences in the final product (weight, maybe internal geometry a little bit). Mixing lots is asking for pressure/velocity spreads. I'm sure we're not the only ones in that regard, and even from the same line different lots usually replace tooling which can cause small changes. If you're using it for 400 and in blasting/practice ammo, sure whatever.

 

[straightshooter1]

Hey all,

I am curious, who mixes lots of brass with the same headstamp to load "match" or precision stuff with good success?

My OCD tells me not to do it but I'm not even sure it's a big deal. I bought some 308 lapua brass off the hide at a good deal. What I didn't realize was that I would be getting 2 or 3 different lots. Which is fine, it was a good deal, but it would make life easier if I could just mix all and not worry.

I also have my 6.5CM peterson brass which is 2 lots. I have them separate but same thing. If I could mix all and not notice any accuracy degradation, it would make things easier.

Thanks,

Serg

It really does depend on what level of shooting you're doing. For most shooters, mixing lots of Lapua brass isn't likely going to be able to see any difference (Lapua tending to have small variations from lot to lot than other brands). I've had Lapua brass that had case capacity at 56.2 grs H20 to 55.3 grs H20. Would that difference in .9 grs H2O make a difference in your results? It just might if you're shooting long distance or like ELR. But I think that difference is more an exception than the rule. Of course, it's those exceptions one has to look out for. Many other brands of brass have much more variation between them and usually need to be kept separate, even from one lot to another.

 

[spife7980]

If you do, you’ll always have that gnawing at the back of your mind.

 

[Maurygold]

Well yeah. Hornady brass is trash without mixing lots.

This is lapua brass though - the gold standard of brass.

Load 10 of each separated and go shoot them over Garmin if you’re really worried

 

[supercorndogs]

10 shots of each lot over a chronograph would be my starting point also.

That is if I came up with a good enough reason to mix them.

 

[straightshooter1]

10 shots of each lot over a chronograph would be my starting point also.

That is if I came up with a good enough reason to mix them.

Before I get to 10 shots, I'll do a series of 3 shots each to cull out those the did poorly. They're easy to distinguish from the good. It's the good groups in that series that's not definable due to small sample count. Once I've identified what what looks like good groups than might be repeatable, then I repeat the test to see what repeats or not, select those that do and then shoot the longer strings of 10 or more in 5 shot groups to verify. Though I chronograph everything, it's the target that determines the good load. . . not any particular velocity or velocity SD. The chronograph doesn't tell me anything more than how well I'm reloading my cartridges.

 

[Maurygold]

Before I get to 10 shots, I'll do a series of 3 shots each to cull out those the did poorly. They're easy to distinguish from the good. It's the good groups in that series that's not definable due to small sample count. Once I've identified what what looks like good groups than might be repeatable, then I repeat the test to see what repeats or not, select those that do and then shoot the longer strings of 10 or more in 5 shot groups to verify. Though I chronograph everything, it's the target that determines the good load. . . not any particular velocity or velocity SD. The chronograph doesn't tell me anything more than how well I'm reloading my cartridges.

Target doesn’t mean anything in load dev to me. I only care about es/ sd.

I’ve never seen a group that metered well shoot poorly and the reality is without a $2k rest you can’t tell which of the half dozen sub half moa groups is better than the other.

Oh yeah and stuff about statistically significant group size

 

[BobinNC]

Target doesn’t mean anything in load dev to me. I only care about es/ sd.

I’ve never seen a group that metered well shoot poorly and the reality is without a $2k rest you can’t tell which of the half dozen sub half moa groups is better than the other.

Oh yeah and stuff about statistically significant group size

Ah yes, the $2K benchrest that can do anything. And you don't have one, (and you don't, cause if you did you'd be bragging about it too) you just can't hit steel targets or punch paper with the panache necessary to record your groups in a significantly statistically manner.

 

[supercorndogs]

Before I get to 10 shots, I'll do a series of 3 shots each to cull out those the did poorly. They're easy to distinguish from the good. It's the good groups in that series that's not definable due to small sample count. Once I've identified what what looks like good groups than might be repeatable, then I repeat the test to see what repeats or not, select those that do and then shoot the longer strings of 10 or more in 5 shot groups to verify. Though I chronograph everything, it's the target that determines the good load. . . not any particular velocity or velocity SD. The chronograph doesn't tell me anything more than how well I'm reloading my cartridges.

I would want to know if the brass mixing is going to affect ES, and SD spreads. I don't care about the target at this point. But I do tend to shoot everything at a target.

Did you read the OP? I am not even sure who you're trying to talk to or what question you're trying to answer. Someone asked about mixing brass lots. Not for a bunch of faggot arguing about load development.

 

[kilizyrag]

I shoot 6GT. I started with 50 hand-me-down cases 1X fired. I then purchased 100 GAP new (Hornady). Each match my stash of brass grows as my buddy shooting 6GT does not reload. I now have over 400 cases and I have not kept track of # of times fired. Total mixed batch of brass I use and my SD's run 2.1 - 9.4. Velocity hovers around 2850 using 36.0 H4350 and CCI 450 or Rem 7.5.

 

[straightshooter1]

Target doesn’t mean anything in load dev to me. I only care about es/ sd.

I’ve never seen a group that metered well shoot poorly and the reality is without a $2k rest you can’t tell which of the half dozen sub half moa groups is better than the other.

Oh yeah and stuff about statistically significant group size

Poor SD's and ES's don't produce good results on target, for sure. But the best SD's or ES's seldom produce the best result on target. So, it's true that one needs good SD's/ES's for good groups, but focusing on the best ones won't guarantee you'll get the best groups (removing any affects for shooter's skill ).

 

[Maurygold]

Ah yes, the $2K benchrest that can do anything. And you don't have one, (and you don't, cause if you did you'd be bragging about it too) you just can't hit steel targets or punch paper with the panache necessary to record your groups in a significantly statistically manner.

I owned a seb when I shot f class. I promise you cannot achieve the same accuracy with a bipod.

I’ve shot thousands of rounds over shotmarkers using this methodology. I’m very comfortable with it

 

[Ledzep]

On occasion I've beat the fixture for groups, but it's not usually the case. More likely to be the lucky circumstance of me counteracting poor dispersion with my (lack of) aiming ability. It's not huge, but probably averages ~0.1-0.15 MOA on the whole that the fixture is better than me.

 

[Maurygold]

Is that a huge difference? no. is it meaningful when I print 5-6 groups with different loads under .5 moa - absolutely.

Im not telling someone to pick a 1.2 moa group that meters better than a .4 moa group but when all your groups are .2-.5 moa (they should be if you can load and shoot at a high level with good chamberings) you really can't say what is load and what is shooter, and I will always pick the one that meters best for distance shooting

 

[BobinNC]

I owned a seb when I shot f class. I promise you cannot achieve the same accuracy with a bipod.

I’ve shot thousands of rounds over shotmarkers using this methodology. I’m very comfortable with it

Maury,

The majority of shooters here on the Hide do not shoot F class or Formal Benchrest comps, nor do they use or want to use a $2K SEB benchrest.

They're shooting mainly off of Bipods, Tripods, Backpacks, Walls, Barricades, Tree Stumps, Side of Pickup Truck Beds, and what have you. And occasionally from a bench with an old Freeland, or maybe a Champion, Sinclair, Ransom, Hoppe's, Protektor or some such when doing load development.

They hump their rifles over a long PRC courses, in improvised shooting positions and over hill, dale and mountains in search of meat or horn or varmints. They are interested in getting the best accuracy out of their rig for putting hits on target and not getting extra points for how small their group was or could be.

And it doesn't matter much of their rifle bears a former truck axel for a barrel, or an ultra light one like a soda straw. Their goal is the "same rounds on target". In short nobody is hauling SEB to a PRC match, or 3 gun event or on a hunt in the hills.

Nobody is doubting that you Maury being a great shot, and a master reloader of great renown, and are deadly accurate while cradled in your SEB. But there thing called practical shooting and practical reloading which you seem to either not be acquainted with or dismiss entirely.

Have a sparkling day...

 

[Maurygold]

Maury,

The majority of shooters here on the Hide do not shoot F class or Formal Benchrest comps, nor do they use or want to use a $2K SEB benchrest.

They're shooting mainly off of Bipods, Tripods, Backpacks, Walls, Barricades, Tree Stumps, Side of Pickup Truck Beds, and what have you. And occasionally from a bench with an old Freeland, or maybe a Champion, Sinclair, Ransom, Hoppe's, Protektor or some such when doing load development.

They hump their rifles over a long PRC courses, in improvised shooting positions and over hill, dale and mountains in search of meat or horn or varmints. They are interested in getting the best accuracy out of their rig for putting hits on target and not getting extra points for how small their group was or could be.

And it doesn't matter much of their rifle bears a former truck axel for a barrel, or an ultra light one like a soda straw. Their goal is the "same rounds on target". In short nobody is hauling SEB to a PRC match, or 3 gun event or on a hunt in the hills.

Nobody is doubting that you Maury being a great shot, and a master reloader of great renown, and are deadly accurate while cradled in your SEB. But there thing called practical shooting and practical reloading which you seem to either not be acquainted with or dismiss entirely.

Have a sparkling day...

You missed the entire point being an idiot.

Having shot a bunch of precision ammo off precision equipment the point is that you cannot really shoot well enough off a bipod to determine which of your sub half moa groups is better than another so I pick the one that meters best. And I apply this to my guns I shoot steel with.

You probably shoot savages and don’t have that problem since I’m guessing you tenuously have a good system for reloading and shooting or you’d understand some of this.

Edit: this guy shoots factory barrels - classic.

 

[BobinNC]

Your condescension of a 74 year old, 100% P&T disabled veteran is also classic. I've never owned a Savage nor am I likely too. I now shoot only factory barrels. That doesn't mean I haven't owned custom rifles or have shot in gun games in the past. I reloaded my first hull in 1973. I've been doing this shit for a long time.

What's the point of you even being on Sniper's Hide anyway?? Telling us constantly how you and your $2K SEB are the only barometer of accurate shooting and us poor rubes should just shut up and bask in the glow your superiority?

I'm done with you Maury. Go chase your rainbows elsewhere.....

 

[Maurygold]

Your condescension of a 74 year old, 100% P&T disabled veteran is also classic. I've never owned a Savage nor am I likely too. I now shoot only factory barrels. That doesn't mean I haven't owned custom rifles or have shot in gun games in the past. I reloaded my first hull in 1973. I've been doing this shit for a long time.

What's the point of you even being on Sniper's Hide anyway?? Telling us constantly how you and your $2K SEB are the only barometer of accurate shooting and us poor rubes should just shut up and bask in the glow your superiority?

I'm done with you Maury. Go chase your rainbows elsewhere.....

I never mentioned owning one until you confidently said I didn’t.

I’m not taking advice on precision from someone shooting factory guns. My “practical rifle” barrels cost more than your factory guns.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Oh shit here comes the disabled Vet card.

You might be surprised to learn a large number of people on this website are not only 100% Disabled vets but earned it during combat. Before you start whipping out dicks for the contest, you probably want to be sure yours is the biggest. I can almost assure you, its not.

You might want to put that card back in the stack and save it for another day.

Maury is bringing up a very valid point. It doesn't matter what discipline you shoot, unless you can isolate variables you cannot discern the differences between other variables. The example being controlling everything but the difference in brass lots. Unless your rig (and you) can to the degree that you could make a educated judgement if the Lot differences shoot different, then its just guessing. And more likely false confidence as you are making judgements calls based on poor and unreliable data. That will lead you down a path of poor decisions based on poor analysis.

And if you don't think a good portion of PRS shooters take almost the same steps as benchrest or fclass shooters to get the most accurate ammo they can, you are mistaken. Some guys take this VERY VERY seriously, and coincidentally, they tend to be the guys who podium. With the quality and quantify of competition, any slight edge is a win. Matches are won by one point or timed tie breakers all the time.

 

[supercorndogs]

What a revolution in thinking. You mean it doesn't matter if you can't shoot the diffrence.

 

[Maurygold]

What a revolution in thinking. You mean it doesn't matter if you can't shoot the diffrence.

People trying to go interpret a bunch of half moa groups is a frequent occurrence on this site. I actually don’t think most realize they have no idea what was gun vs shooter at that small of a difference and would be better off picking based on the chrono at that level

 

[supercorndogs]

People trying to go interpret a bunch of half moa groups is a frequent occurrence on this site. I actually don’t think most realize they have no idea what was gun vs shooter at that small of a difference and would be better off picking based on the chrono at that level

What would one look for with the chrono to decide? Or do you just mean as a check of reloading consistency.

I have been one to point out the great lengths people go to in reloading for no good reason. At the end if the day each guy gets to cook his steak how he likes to.

I think when a lot guys find their magic load for a new barrel, it just represents what they were shooting when everything smoothes out enough to calm down.

 

[Maurygold]

What would one look for with the chrono to decide? Or do you just mean as a check of reloading consistency.

I have been one to point out the great lengths people go to in reloading for no good reason. At the end if the day each guy gets to cook his steak how he likes to.

I think when a lot guys find their magic load for a new barrel, it just represents what they were shooting when everything smoothes out enough to calm down.

I see you read nothing from the thread and just came in to bitch.

I said that when you go shoot a bunch of .2-.5 moa groups that I pick the one that has least spread over chrono as opposed to discerning .2 moa differences in group size as meaningful data when shooting off a bipod

 

[supercorndogs]

I see you read nothing from the thread and just came in to bitch.

I said that when you go shoot a bunch of .2-.5 moa groups that I pick the one that has least spread over chrono as opposed to discerning .2 moa differences in group size as meaningful data

I read enough of the thread to know you ain't talking anything about mixing brass lots like the OP asked.

But your thought would seem to be that there is a powder node so to speak. A charge weight that is going to have less deviation than others. Or are we just sliding over to the random load chooser?

 

[straightshooter1]

What a revolution in thinking. You mean it doesn't matter if you can't shoot the diffrence.

Even though it may not matter in terms of getting the best possible outcome, it does matter in reducing the worst possible outcome.

 

[Maurygold]

I read enough of the thread to know you ain't talking anything about mixing brass lots like the OP asked.

But your thought would seem to be that there is a powder node so to speak. A charge weight that is going to have less deviation than others. Or are we just sliding over to the random load chooser?

Again on the blatantly not reading and bitching.

That was in regards to his question about mixing lots and how you would test that. Seriously. Try reading first and bitching second.

Now you’re just trying to carry things farther away from anything related to his question - which you just threw a senseless jab about.

I’m very comfortable with what I’m doing regardless of what you think about it

 

[supercorndogs]

Again on the blatantly not reading and bitching.

That was in regards to his question about mixing lots and how you would test that. Seriously. Try reading first and bitching second.

Now you’re just trying to carry things farther away from anything related to his question - which you just through a senseless jab about.

I’m very comfortable with what I’m doing regardless of what you think about it

View attachment 8747249

Well no. I was asking you questions and you are being a feckless cunt as per the usual.

 

[Maurygold]

Well no. I was asking you questions and you are being a feckless cunt as per the usual.

You didn’t read the thread. Came in to correct people and bitch having no understanding of what was said. Then lied about going back and reading to bitch more.

Then threw shade for derailing from ops question and then proceeded to try to derail farther from the question.

Then hurl insults and play victim.

Valuable input you added here.

 

[supercorndogs]

You didn’t read the thread. Came in to correct people and bitch having no understanding of what was said. Then lied about going back and reading to bitch more.

Then threw shade for derailing from ops question and then proceeded to try to derail farther from the question.

Then hurl insults and play victim.

Valuable input you added here.

I didn't say I went back and read anything. I asked a question and you started in with your normal faggotry.

 

[Maurygold]

I didn't say I went back and read anything. I asked a question and you started in with your normal faggotry.

"I read enough of the thread to know you ain't talking anything about mixing brass lots like the OP asked" Why are you so angry and butthurt??

for whatever it's worth (I still know you asked about nodes just to hurl more insults and/ or argue), but I do believe there are speeds (you might call these nodes) where the bullet settles and shows lower SD/ES. Even if I'm wrong, there's no good argument against selecting the lowest ES/SD from a string - but I am not loading to chase an SD/ES. I am deciding where in a window of speed the SD/ES drops the lowest. When I was shooting F-Class, we would change the load to match the desired speed based on temperature

 

[Bevan]

On occasion I've beat the fixture for groups, but it's not usually the case. More likely to be the lucky circumstance of me counteracting poor dispersion with my (lack of) aiming ability. It's not huge, but probably averages ~0.1-0.15 MOA on the whole that the fixture is better than me.

That's interesting. Assuming you're talking 20 + rd groups?

 

[Bevan]

Hey all,

I am curious, who mixes lots of brass with the same headstamp to load "match" or precision stuff with good success?

My OCD tells me not to do it but I'm not even sure it's a big deal. I bought some 308 lapua brass off the hide at a good deal. What I didn't realize was that I would be getting 2 or 3 different lots. Which is fine, it was a good deal, but it would make life easier if I could just mix all and not worry.

I also have my 6.5CM peterson brass which is 2 lots. I have them separate but same thing. If I could mix all and not notice any accuracy degradation, it would make things easier.

Thanks,

Serg

Depends on your objective.

What are you using the ammo for?

 

[Ledzep]

That's interesting. Assuming you're talking 20 + rd groups?

Yep. There's still some variability in 20 shot groups that honestly might be enough to explain most of the difference for the times I do beat it, and like I said it's not common for me to beat it (and not by much) but it does occasionally happen. Our fixture is set up in the tunnel hooked up to the Oehler 85 and the Oehler only holds 20 shots in a string so that's typically what gets shot when I do testing. I have some Excel and Matlab files that will eat bigger sets by piecing the 20's together if it's needed.