Maggie’s Powder Valley Warehouse Burned Down
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Probably set by a disgruntled employee or a paid leftist.
Damn, i've placed many orders from there over the years. I'm glad that they are going to rebuild and be back. They were always a great compan to buy from.
They have been a pillar in the shooting supply community for decades. Probably NOT insurance fraud.
PV is certainly one of the good ones…good, hard working family.
Bought two jugs of Varget a few years ago…UPS crushed the box enough to split a jug a little and a few oz of powder leaked out.
Called PV to let them know—without me asking, they immediately shipped me a new jug and told me to keep the old one.
Glad everyone was ok. I can only imagine how fast and hot a fire moves in a big steel building of reloading supplies.
ZY
Bought two jugs of Varget a few years ago…UPS crushed the box enough to split a jug a little and a few oz of powder leaked out.
Called PV to let them know—without me asking, they immediately shipped me a new jug and told me to keep the old one.
Glad everyone was ok. I can only imagine how fast and hot a fire moves in a big steel building of reloading supplies.
ZY
It basically looks like a road flare. With random pops when it hits black powder.
I got to see a sporting goods store burn. They just sat back and kept it from spreading because there's no putting it out once the smokeless powder is going up.
FYI, the The Kansas State Fire Marshal’s Office and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has determined the cause to be accidental.
Dang! I have purchased many jugs of powder and other reloading supplies from them over the years and will again. Never ever any issues.
That should help Powder Valley get insurance money quickly. Still have to hassle with the insurance companies anyway, but those investigations will help a ton.
Their $$ status, between fire and insurance company coverage returns, will not be easy. Faster insurance turnaround will help a lot.
Prayers and smo-
Never mind, just prayers for a pillar of our community.
Never mind, just prayers for a pillar of our community.
Never heard of them before this post (never reloaded). Too few truly upstanding vendors in the gun world. Best wishes on a speedy return to business.
Pretty well fixed for my reloading needs right now, but I’ll order more from them as soon as they come back online.
I just emailed them and reminded about my pending order of 24# of RL26 I had just ordered.
There won't be any hassle with their insurance carrier. The issues will be establishing inventory value and policy limits. The really big issues will be getting permits from the local government to rebuild.
If the fire was determined to be accidental the type of accident makes a difference. Was it faulty wiring? Is there a wiring contractor that needs to be put on notice of pending subrogation? Was the accident due to human negligence? Does that person and their insurance carrier need to be put on notice of pending subrogation? Was it an act of god, like wind, lightning, animal related or other natural occurrence that caused the fire?
Guys that make the kind of comment above amuse me. They are the same guys that want complete paint jobs over a door ding, or want a new transmission because they got bumped in traffic, then claim the insurance company screwed them when they don't get it. Insurance companies and their adjusters don't give two shits about your individual claim's legitimate value. They just want to settle the claim and move on to the next one. In a case like Powder Valley there will be some leg work to establish the value of inventory in a revolving inventory warehouse but that will all be settled long before they have a building built and ready to move in to.
I guess that felt good.
I've worked on a few fire disasters in my time. Didn't make up anything; didn't say anything not true; and didn't pretend to know the whole picture at PV.
But hey congrats on the drive by putdown. Works for you on the internet, I guess.
I've worked on a few fire disasters in my time. Didn't make up anything; didn't say anything not true; and didn't pretend to know the whole picture at PV.
But hey congrats on the drive by putdown. Works for you on the internet, I guess.
Damn.
That escalated quicker than a fire at a gunpowder warehouse!
That escalated quicker than a fire at a gunpowder warehouse!
Having spent almost 40 years working both sides of the fence, 30 in insurance and almost 10 in a high end body shop, it gets very old hearing the same old bullshit over and over and over. If I had a dollar for every time I heard, I want a complete paint job, I want to new transmission, I want an alignment, or what ever, I would be living in American Samoa with no internet or cell phone.
What I found amusing is that your drive-by assumed I'm someone I'm not, and assumed I have attitudes/POVs I do not hold. I guess that makes the put-down part easier to get off the ground.
What in my comment above made you think I'm Mr Something for Nothing? Or a whiner? I spent a few decades telling such people to pound sand when they whined about their somethings they wanted for nothing done of value.
If your body shop has a fire and inventory's burned and you don't carry a slush fund for emergencies, how quickly are you back up and running? Who funds the rebuild? Who buys the replacement inventory? Are your wholesalers going to put it on a tab? Or do they want money for the inventory you need to replace?
So this comment "Still have to hassle with the insurance companies anyway" wasn't you? And what exactly did you mean by that? You project the attitude that you assume insurance is going to hassle you. Why?
Anyway I will be in Kalispell on Saturday, Great Falls, Butte, Missoula, Thompson Falls and Trout Creek some time after that depending on my schedule. If I can work it in my schedule between taking my dad to the doctor and drinking & fishing with my buddies I would be glad to buy you a beer and bury the hatchet.
Back to the Powder Valley fire....I'm just glad that nobody was hurt and physical stuff can be fixed or replaced. People....not so much.
I hope they get back in business soon and thrive....they are one of the good guys in this business.
Cheers
I hope they get back in business soon and thrive....they are one of the good guys in this business.
Cheers
Maybe because thats what insurance companies do... like 9 out of 10 times.
How many insurance stories have you read where the person was like "oh my fuck they gave me 125% value for my car that was totaled"? Most likely between 0 and 1...
How many insurance stories have you read where the insurance company offered like 50% value of the item and claim market rate, when everybody(including them) knows its complete horse shit. Then you take weeks on end, maybe a lawyer, etc... to get them to come up to a more reasonable number, which is generally probably still low.... My guess is a ton.
I think thats why people are expecting a hassle when it comes to dealing with insurance no matter the product being insured...
My guess is PV, like most everybody if they are honest, was under-insured, but possibly not due to the product they inventoried. Hell its possible somebody wouldnt even SELL them fire insurance and they could be royally fucked... no clue. If they have the policy limits and the live computer inventory of their warehouse it should be a pretty easy settlement. Stuff like the value of the building and other things will be where they possibly get into a tug of war with the insurance.
Sheesh! So much passion.
Truth is, while I did once have big issues with an insurance company after a hurricane, the number of fraud cases are huge. That’s no joke nor fabrication. Here in Florida, the number of Scam roofing companies that operate throughout the state are a giant hassle. Most of them are based in other states like Texas, etc. and are run by attorneys. They change their name every year and go from door to door convincing homeowners that the latest “hail storm” caused enough damage to warrant a new roof courtesy of their insurance company.
Then they hire local roofers that don’t have their own license, largely because of their ethic makeup to do the work for peanuts.
I’m quite familiar with with them. That type of fraud alone runs in the billions and is a large reason why insurance companies have become like they are when it comes to addressing claims.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m still a believer that insurance companies exist solely because organized crime needed a legal outlet for their operations. It’s literally a protection racket, but made legal and even required by law. How perfect is that?
No hatchet to bury, really. A misunderstanding, no animosity.
Insurance carriers protect their assets just like the insured entities/persons want to protect theirs. This means ruling out arson in a fire destruction coverage situation. Any sensible carrier will rule out arson first before paying out on a fire claim.
This POV has no Yes/No bright line on the insured's "honesty" and does not assume either honest or dishonest from the insured. It just protects the coverage's application. Arson is rarely covered in a fire case, unless if arson is suspected, the carrier determines the arsonist was not the insured, nor arranged by the insured.
I'm talking generics. Not saying a damned thing about PV. I would assume PV was full disclosure with its carrier.
With two entities determining "no arson" here, that makes the claim investigation easier for the carrier, and that's what I said above. In slightly different words.
Honestly? Me.
When we had the wildfires of 2007 rip through our community (look up Westwood and 2007 wildfires), causing damage to my own home, USAA was there the day they lifted the lock down on our community (the one that was on the international news, showing literally rows of homes going up in smoke).
They not only helped us file the claim, but pointed out things we could, and should, claim, aside from the fire damage (lost food in the freezer from the power being shut off, the re-painting of the entire house, not just the corner that got scorched, or the dry wall and garage door that had to be replaced due to it being knocked down by the FD to get at the gas line in the wall that was on fire, professional house cleaning to get all the ash and smoke smell out of the house).
So, yeah, there actually are a lot of people that make claims like this. The problem is no one complains about good service, just when it's bad.
Some carriers -- and there are not many of them -- actually work cooperatively with their insureds when a claim arises. USAA has a good reputation for being helpful, not adversarial.
Most carriers see a lot of fraudulent claims and even w/o fraud they are tight-fisted with their $$, so they make insureds jump through many hoops. Partly this is to weed out fraud. For some carriers it's a way to be stingy.
I did coverage defense for many different carriers. They vary in their "friendliness" to insureds.
Most carriers see a lot of fraudulent claims and even w/o fraud they are tight-fisted with their $$, so they make insureds jump through many hoops. Partly this is to weed out fraud. For some carriers it's a way to be stingy.
I did coverage defense for many different carriers. They vary in their "friendliness" to insureds.
I would call that good service, but I bet they didnt pay out $1 more than they absolutely had to via your policy declarations. You were likely, through your policy language, covered for all of that stuff otherwise they wouldnt have paid it. I have coverage for all of that kind of stuff also. My broker is VERY thorough with my policy...and I pay out the ass for it.
I will say there is a reason there are a lot of lawyers that deal strictly with insurance companies and their tactics. People dont get awarded lots of money in settlements because the insurance company was dealing in an honest manner.
I guess my point was that it really does depend on the insurance company and the local agent. I had one company/agent that would only honor the parts of the policy that I called out, or filed under. They were completely fine with not paying for everything covered under the policy if I didn't raise it as a claim. USAA on the other hand, went out of their way to make sure we got everything our policy covered.
Point being, it was $ I wasn't aware of being covered, that they ensured we claimed. So, not all companies are inherently bad, and some go out of their way, looking out for their clients best interests. You just don't hear about it often, because mostly its the negatives that get voiced and repeated.
USSA are rock stars and have been my carrier since I was a butter bar in early 70’s.
I don’t care if I can get coverage for less. When I call them they actually speak English and their service is impeccable.
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I stopped doing external defense for a reason, and went in-house with a company that works with their insureds to find coverage, rather than stonewalling them or making them jump through pointless hoops.
It's not weasel-words, or "liberal" or "leftist" to observe that some carriers are dishonest. At the same time I know there are carriers that are not assholes to their insureds.
Oh great, a pea brain heard from. How people with this kind of mentality make it through life it a mystery. This is the kind of guy that thinks the insurance company is out to get them, then accuses the body shop of ripping them off too. He is also the kind of guy that wrecks his 2002 Honda Civic with 350K miles and wants the insurance company to buy him a new Honda Accord to replace it. This is also the kind of guy that no matter what the insurance company paid him he would think if they paid this much they must owe me more.
The biggest problem people have when an insurance claim comes up is they have no clue what insurance they have or what it covers.
The problem with those bullshit stories you read on the internet is, you only read what the person that posted it wants you to hear. They leave out all of the actual reasons why something did or did not happen.
USAA is probably the best claim operation in the business right now, followed closely by American Family and Farm Bureau. State Farm used to be the best but they went through a tough time with an incompetent CEO. Now that he is gone they are rebuilding their brand.
It is illegal to require insureds or claimants to delay claim payments or require claimants or insureds to produce excess or redundant documentation for the purposes of delaying claim payments. There is no delaying or making people jump through hoops to prevent fraud. If you actually were counsel on retainer for insurance companies you know every state has a Fair Claim Practices Act strictly outlining time lines for everything. They almost all include language similar to "When liability is clear and the damages are reasonably known payment must be issued within XX days".
Myself having worked in both Claim Litigation Counsel and the Special Investigative Unit can tell you the NICB says at least 40% of all claims include some element of fraud. Usually it's not worth the time to address so it's over looked. Not all fraud is committed by the customer, sometimes it's the tow company, the body shop, the doctor, the chiropractor, the plaintiff counsel, building contractor, material supplier, sometimes even the police.
Yeah I don't air dirty laundry in specifics, on any of my past clients. I will comment on industry trends I have witnessed, without naming companies as bad actors.
Also, conglomeration is a big deal in insurance -- entities that seem to be small companies often are subsidiaries of larger companies who are known to be more ruthless, but the small company is created for "brand differentiation" you might call it.
You and I could have some interesting talks. Do you recall the Port Elizabeth fire in New Jersey, late 1980s? I clerked for the judge who handled the coverage disputes on that fire. It was a gigantic mess because one of the tenants (among many at the Port) had sloppy materials handling and sloppy fire prevention, but many other tenants were ok on those fronts yet still suffered losses.
I worked a few arson-suspected claims as well. And a lot of other coverage scenarios. If it was an aspect of property, casualty, liability, or re-insurance, I've probably done it or something very close to it. Nerdy boring stuff to most anybody, though.
Also, conglomeration is a big deal in insurance -- entities that seem to be small companies often are subsidiaries of larger companies who are known to be more ruthless, but the small company is created for "brand differentiation" you might call it.
You and I could have some interesting talks. Do you recall the Port Elizabeth fire in New Jersey, late 1980s? I clerked for the judge who handled the coverage disputes on that fire. It was a gigantic mess because one of the tenants (among many at the Port) had sloppy materials handling and sloppy fire prevention, but many other tenants were ok on those fronts yet still suffered losses.
I worked a few arson-suspected claims as well. And a lot of other coverage scenarios. If it was an aspect of property, casualty, liability, or re-insurance, I've probably done it or something very close to it. Nerdy boring stuff to most anybody, though.
That is how claims are supposed to be handled. It is the adjusters job to guide the person through the claim and tell them every coverage they have that applies to the claim at hand. If there is coverage that applies, and the adjuster knows it but doesn't tell the customer that amounts to a bad faith breech of contract.
Also, if you asked me about one of the rare times I was plaintiff counsel -- recently -- representing a guy who worked for FBI and DEA and did contract work in Afghanistan, where he was injured?
Well I came into the claim 10 yrs into its history, 3rd set of counsel for the plaintiff. Why does this claim have a 10 year open time? Some of it was prior plaintiff counsel. Most of it was the carrier, who in fed work comp "stands in the shoes of" the taxpayer. Along with 2 other co-counsel, we resolved the claim and the overseeing judge said it was longest/oldest he'd seen, most complex. But the complexity was created by the carrier!
Well I came into the claim 10 yrs into its history, 3rd set of counsel for the plaintiff. Why does this claim have a 10 year open time? Some of it was prior plaintiff counsel. Most of it was the carrier, who in fed work comp "stands in the shoes of" the taxpayer. Along with 2 other co-counsel, we resolved the claim and the overseeing judge said it was longest/oldest he'd seen, most complex. But the complexity was created by the carrier!
Yes the consolidator thing is an issue with the little brands. Geico owns a lot of them. They use those to push their assigned risk pool into. Other big carriers do the same thing. American Family has bought up some of the smaller brands but they are bringing them under the umbrella of the primary claim operation, so just increasing market share not just using them to harbor assigned risk pools.
I bet we could spend quite a few hours drinking beer and telling stories. I have been asked several times by coworkers and vendors to write a book about my experiences. If I could get around the privacy and disclosure issues I would.
Yes, federal workers comp is a whole different animal with a whole different set of rules. I am not sure how workers comp applies to out of country injuries suffered in a military conflict.
Some of my shooting buddies were FBI agents that went to Afghanistan early on. There was a whole shit storm because they brought their own FGMM 69gr OTM ammo. It was almost a holy shit war crimes violation.
Causation and "whether covered?" were not issues. Both conceded by the carrier.
What does that tell you?
What does that tell you?
Hey, you sound like my co-counsel who was a plaintiff's specialist, who brought me in as the insurance specialist!
I told him, "listen, we need a fed work comp specialist too, because you and I don't swim in that pond."
With 3 different counsel hectoring him, from 3 different POVs, do you think the carrier's counsel had an easy time?
I won't talk details on whether BF was a hot issue, worth trying literal or analogous pursuit. I will say the presiding judge at closure time, whom I called "overseeing judge" earlier -- he commented often enough on the carrier's behavior.
I have done several BF defenses when I was in house, and once was deposed as the former claim attorney on the live BF case, at which point I was in GC's office. I know BF claims pretty well. Wouldn't say "expert" would say "done some."
I told him, "listen, we need a fed work comp specialist too, because you and I don't swim in that pond."
With 3 different counsel hectoring him, from 3 different POVs, do you think the carrier's counsel had an easy time?
I won't talk details on whether BF was a hot issue, worth trying literal or analogous pursuit. I will say the presiding judge at closure time, whom I called "overseeing judge" earlier -- he commented often enough on the carrier's behavior.
I have done several BF defenses when I was in house, and once was deposed as the former claim attorney on the live BF case, at which point I was in GC's office. I know BF claims pretty well. Wouldn't say "expert" would say "done some."
The more crucial thing I think, for readers of this forum and this thread -- if you ever have cause as a fed employee or fed contractor to submit a fed work comp claim, and your injuries are life-changing?
Get a damned good attorney, or two, or three. Because your employer will not be kind or lenient to you. And, because plaintiff's counsel often are businessmen first, your advocate second. You are their revenue stream, your situation is just the trickle that they want to become a gushing fire hose.
Get a damned good attorney, or two, or three. Because your employer will not be kind or lenient to you. And, because plaintiff's counsel often are businessmen first, your advocate second. You are their revenue stream, your situation is just the trickle that they want to become a gushing fire hose.
I would think anyone, in any scenario that has suffered life long debilitating injuries or disfigurement should seek counsel. Not an ambulance chaser, not the guys that advertise on TV in the middle of the night, a well known reputable counselor or firm. Even if insurance is not involved. In cases of insufficient insurance coverage, an excess judgement can be attained and assets of the defendant attached or seized and sold to satisfy the judgement.
As with any other item or service sold in this present economy, gotta be discerning. But how do people who don't mix with lawyers don't have lawyer relatives... how do they know what lawyer is good? When I was in law school I heard from fellow law students who were the "top firms" to work for after graduation. During my clerkship I read briefs etc from some of these "top firms" and couldn't believe the reputation exceeded the quality of work.
Finding a good lawyer is tough just like finding a good insurance agent/broker who will be your advocate to the extent allowed under his own agency/brokerage role.
I don't know if I've ever thought of a bullet pointed list of things to look for. It's pretty easy for a lawyer to sell himself as something he's not, especially if he's a smooth talker. Most plaintiff's attorneys are pretty smooth talkers if they are still practicing after 5 yrs or so as a plaintiff's guy.
Finding a good lawyer is tough just like finding a good insurance agent/broker who will be your advocate to the extent allowed under his own agency/brokerage role.
I don't know if I've ever thought of a bullet pointed list of things to look for. It's pretty easy for a lawyer to sell himself as something he's not, especially if he's a smooth talker. Most plaintiff's attorneys are pretty smooth talkers if they are still practicing after 5 yrs or so as a plaintiff's guy.
