Wtf is wrong with a 45/70 with 500 gr slugs
The perfect suppressor host for hunting
- Thread starter Bakwa
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This is one of the options I’m leaning towards. That or an American Ranch with the barrel cut down to SBR it with a folding stock.
T’would be a great option if you know of one that fits in a pack.
For subsonic that has a trajectory of a rainbow, low SD / ES is very important at anything beyond 100 yds. That requires consistent ignition and that is a lot easier with a powder charge that fills most of the case. 45/70 is huge, not ideal. Also, most heavy (500g) .458 bullets are designed not to expand in big game for deep penetration at supersonic velocity. So only expensive bullets like Makers expand at subsonic speeds.
Often the most effective subsonic hunting bullet is not the heaviest.
The bullet for 45 LC and 450BM are already designed to expand at subsonic velocities.
The 450BM has the case capacity to go fast, but if you only plan on Subsonic, the 45LC has less wasted case capacity.
For hunting which is better? An expanding bullet with low SD or a heavy slug that may just poke a hole clean through?
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I have a 458 SOCOM and it is great. I think a better cartridge design as I like that it has a shoulder to head space off of. But If my priorities were hunting, especially suppressed, 450BM is a better choice.
AR will probably be cheaper, but MDT makes options for the rugers, with a folding rear.
@Bakwa ruger american with the MDT LSS-XL should fit your needs.
Get the 16.1" barrel G2 ranch (46922) which is a 1:16 twist like the Faxon barrels that perform incredibly well with subs, and the LSS-XL G2 with the Ruger American SA AR inlet. add a folding adapter and you're off to the races with a 20" long bolt gun folded with a QD suppressor.
Older thread where someone built something similar:
www.snipershide.com
Get the 16.1" barrel G2 ranch (46922) which is a 1:16 twist like the Faxon barrels that perform incredibly well with subs, and the LSS-XL G2 with the Ruger American SA AR inlet. add a folding adapter and you're off to the races with a 20" long bolt gun folded with a QD suppressor.
Older thread where someone built something similar:
Ruger American 450 Bushmaster conversion
BRAND NEW member here. I am usually an AR guy but I do want to get into Bolt Guns and some longer distant shooting (This build isn't for that) I am looking to build a 458 SOCOM bolt gun. There's a company that makes a 458 bolt rifle but its $2k plus. For that price I can have an X Caliber...
www.snipershide.com
44 Mag T/C Contender 16" with Hybrid suppressor. Can shoot subs or a 240g JHP at 1,758 fps.
It is a handy setup with 1-4x on it.
There are plenty of bullets that expand starting at around 800 fps.
Here is reticle for supers and subs.
My Henry .45-70 with a Hybrid 46 using Sub-X ammo. My normal shot on a deer is 50-60 yards in my woods, so the rainbow trajectory isn't an issue.
I'm getting some mileage out of this pic. 2nd thread I've posted it in the last 5 minutes!!
There is factory ammo in .45-70 subsonic??My Henry .45-70 with a Hybrid 46 using Sub-X ammo. My normal shot on a deer is 50-60 yards in my woods, so the rainbow trajectory isn't an issue.
I'm getting some mileage out of this pic. 2nd thread I've posted it in the last 5 minutes!!
Holy shit! There is!
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Ok, this is funny
There is factory ammo in .45-70 subsonic??
Holy shit! There is!
=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=
Ok, this is funny
Well that solves the excessive case capacity issue!
A buddy of mine just completed this project with a Rossi brawler in 300BLK. Kinda cool, not supremely accurate but good for 50-75Y with subs and supers.
View attachment IMG_5935.jpeg
View attachment IMG_5935.jpeg
As a cheap option, I was considering getting a CVA scout in 450 and having my buddy with a lathe chop and thread the barrel to 16”.
A few groups make “pistol grip chassis” for them.
Just for reference this is what he said he's into this build - no optics or can of course
$250 gun
$80 pistol brace mount
$40 forend
This is what I was looking at. Very similar.
$290 gun
$95 pistol grip chassis
Stock components I have
And then whatever favor I'd owe my buddy after he shortened and threaded the barrel
...But then I looked at the twist rate. It's obvious CVA never intended these things to stabilize heavy subs. 1:26? Too slow.
Just a quick search because I dont know anything about the 450 Bushmaster but 1:26 seems like you'll have to stay lighter. Seems like you'll want a 1:16 with a 16" barrel wanting to throw heavies. 300BLK is much faster 1:5 - 1:7 - but its designed for barrels that are very short.
Common Twist Rates for .450 Bushmaster
Common Twist Rates for .450 Bushmaster
- 1:24:
The original and most common standard, ideal for stabilizing the typical 250-300 grain bullets.
- 1:20:
Offers improved stabilization for heavier bullets, generally beyond 300 grains.
- 1:16:
A specialized, faster twist rate designed for the heaviest projectiles, sometimes used for subsonic loads.
- 1:24:
That is part of the reason I went with the T/C Contender. The SSK 44 Mag barrel is 1:16", great for heavies.
I have built:
- 16.25" 458 SOCOM bolt action, 8 twist. 500gr Maker bullets open the size of broadheads.
- 12" 375 Raptor bolt action, 6.25 twist, barrel from Black Collar on their Pork Sword action with folding stock (SBR). The rifle is comically small even with a Griffin Bushwacker suppressor attached. The Raptor is simply a 308 necked up and trimmed down a bit. 400gr Maker bullets.
A lot of inaccurate "facts" shared on this thread. There are plenty of good reasons to hunt subsonic. For those of us with multiple tags, it's nice not to spook every deer in a quarter mile radius. For those of us with 15 crop damage tags and limited hunting time, it's nice to drop 5 deer in 30 minutes walking out into a field. Supers with a can don't scare them an awful lot, but they do figure it out after a couple shots.
- 16.25" 458 SOCOM bolt action, 8 twist. 500gr Maker bullets open the size of broadheads.
- 12" 375 Raptor bolt action, 6.25 twist, barrel from Black Collar on their Pork Sword action with folding stock (SBR). The rifle is comically small even with a Griffin Bushwacker suppressor attached. The Raptor is simply a 308 necked up and trimmed down a bit. 400gr Maker bullets.
A lot of inaccurate "facts" shared on this thread. There are plenty of good reasons to hunt subsonic. For those of us with multiple tags, it's nice not to spook every deer in a quarter mile radius. For those of us with 15 crop damage tags and limited hunting time, it's nice to drop 5 deer in 30 minutes walking out into a field. Supers with a can don't scare them an awful lot, but they do figure it out after a couple shots.
You make a good point about shooting subs vs supers with a can if you are trying not to spook your next shot. I've never need that level of stealth.
Looking at the Ruger 77/44 bolt action. How heavy of subs would you reckon its 1:20” twist would shoot well?
Comes threaded too…
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Those look and feel great. I've handled a few.
For the same price and pedigree, I'm eying the M77 Scout Rifle in 450BM.
Heavier subs, faster supers, better sights, same OAL, only about 1lb heavier. I think I'm talking myself into it, I just have to catch my wallet up to speed.
Can you tell me more about the .458 build? I want to do a 12.5" build but the only way it looks doable is to buy a Ruger American Ranch and trow everything away but the action and start from there. What chassis did you end up with?
I did a 20" integrally suppressed 375 Raptor on an Origin in a Black Collar arms chassis. It's pretty disappointing. Incredibly loud with 400gr SUBs. I've learned what is "quiet" or "loud" is very subjective. My quietest subsonics are either a 22LR(of course) or a 16" barreled 300BO bolt gun with a TBAC 338U using 5.7gr of Hornady Longshot. Barrel length and powder charge have so much to do with it. The really big bore sub cartridges need so much powder that they become self defeating in terms of being quiet. But again, it's how quiet do you want to be and what do you consider to be quiet enough. For me the tip over point is when the bullet impact is louder than the muzzle blast. Then you're just reaching a limiting factor. I also have a 12" 338 Spectre that kind of falls in between the 300BO and 375R and to me, it's kind of disappointing in terms of sound.
I was never interested in pistol cartridges for these applications but I'm coming around. I think a 44 Special, 45LC with pistol cartridge powder charges, bullets made to expand natively in subsonic speeds, and long barrels is probably the sweet spot. I would like to do a TC contender one day.
I was never interested in pistol cartridges for these applications but I'm coming around. I think a 44 Special, 45LC with pistol cartridge powder charges, bullets made to expand natively in subsonic speeds, and long barrels is probably the sweet spot. I would like to do a TC contender one day.
I went down the rabbit hole of 375 Raptor and 45 Raptor. There are certainly mixed reviews from the streets. Mostly good but some underwhelmed like you. My main determining factor for not going with either was a lack of available loaded options [specifically subs].
I've pretty much settled on a 16" 450BM. Seems like the barrel may be long enough to burn a lot of powder behind subs. I found at least 6 different entities loading subs for it. Seems like a great option for a 150yd and in supersonic use too.
My plan as of now is to snag a Ruger Scout. They actually look pretty elegant with their wood stocks, and then I'll buy another stock/chassis for travel and hard use. I figure I can probably take the stock off for travel or packing and the BA should only be <25".
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For a subsonic hunting platform i really like the tc encore or contender.
Tons of barrel options, get and swap pretty much any cartridge you like and any barrel length if you sbr it or are ok with a brace rig.
Sub hunting is fun. I greatly prefer it to crossbow. I find it similar with greater range and familiarity for me. Less bulk than my crossbow too.
Soo, heres how i do it. Caveat being you need to handload and be good at it to get good results. Otherwise youre stuck with iffy factory stuff that may crack in the cold or every time from your unique barrel... and sometimes be loud unnecessarily, and often shoot poorly. Of course thats not always the case.... but sometimes it is and its really annoying when it comes up.
300blk from the encore in 10 inch and 16 inch barrels is very quiet. Lehigh, cavity back, maker etc all make excellent bullets that do broadhead stuff on deer plenty further than you should shoot them. Thats an easy quiet option. Very consistent groups at 50 yards using faster pistol powders, sub .75 to .5 inch very regularly. Subsonic expanders do not open as nice as the big bore stuff. Just is what it is.
A 10 inch 44 mag barrel loaded with big wide flat nosed SOFT cast and coated bullets does a great job. Its very hard to find fancy copper expanders for 44 last i looked... advantage 45 colt here for sure, making it a better choice i think. Running the can wet and using a fast powder keeps the noise down with a hybrid46. Accuracy can be easily sub 1 inch at 50 yards. Shoots better with more work in loading, but not necessary for my sub hunting goals.
A 15 to 18 inch 4570 barrel loaded with maker 500g expanders absolutely hammers deer. Hybrid46 suppressor run wet makes it pretty quiet when using a fast powder. Accuracy is typically about 1 inch at 50 yards consistently, with smaller groups often. Plenty good how i shoot it, but room for improvement.
The break action gun offers easy take down for transport, and no zero change since the optic is on the barrel. There are also folding stock options that will do exactly what youre after. Rifle is also shorter noticeably vs a typical bolt action.
Tons of barrel options, get and swap pretty much any cartridge you like and any barrel length if you sbr it or are ok with a brace rig.
Sub hunting is fun. I greatly prefer it to crossbow. I find it similar with greater range and familiarity for me. Less bulk than my crossbow too.
Soo, heres how i do it. Caveat being you need to handload and be good at it to get good results. Otherwise youre stuck with iffy factory stuff that may crack in the cold or every time from your unique barrel... and sometimes be loud unnecessarily, and often shoot poorly. Of course thats not always the case.... but sometimes it is and its really annoying when it comes up.
300blk from the encore in 10 inch and 16 inch barrels is very quiet. Lehigh, cavity back, maker etc all make excellent bullets that do broadhead stuff on deer plenty further than you should shoot them. Thats an easy quiet option. Very consistent groups at 50 yards using faster pistol powders, sub .75 to .5 inch very regularly. Subsonic expanders do not open as nice as the big bore stuff. Just is what it is.
A 10 inch 44 mag barrel loaded with big wide flat nosed SOFT cast and coated bullets does a great job. Its very hard to find fancy copper expanders for 44 last i looked... advantage 45 colt here for sure, making it a better choice i think. Running the can wet and using a fast powder keeps the noise down with a hybrid46. Accuracy can be easily sub 1 inch at 50 yards. Shoots better with more work in loading, but not necessary for my sub hunting goals.
A 15 to 18 inch 4570 barrel loaded with maker 500g expanders absolutely hammers deer. Hybrid46 suppressor run wet makes it pretty quiet when using a fast powder. Accuracy is typically about 1 inch at 50 yards consistently, with smaller groups often. Plenty good how i shoot it, but room for improvement.
The break action gun offers easy take down for transport, and no zero change since the optic is on the barrel. There are also folding stock options that will do exactly what youre after. Rifle is also shorter noticeably vs a typical bolt action.
I’ve looked at the Encore and Contender a number of times.
Prices keep going up on them and their barrels. I think it’d be a solid option if they were still making barrels.
I also don’t have any intention to reload.
It’s not even a money thing, but rather I lack the time and the space for a setup.
I agree with you that 45colt really has an edge on 44 that’s often slept on. I want someone to come into business making a high quality 45colt single shot threaded with a slightly faster twist than you typically see on older guns. If T/C started making barrels again….
The T/C Contender and encore are recently back in business with the original owners. Part of the reason the barrels are pricey, is they are high quality. I have several pistols that shoot 1.5 MOA or less @ 100yds. New Encore rifle frames are available, some barrels with Contenders on the way. Prices have already begun to fall on used guns.
If you want less expensive check out the CVA single shots.
If you don't reload and also want supersonic performance, 44Mag is much better than 45LC. Factory 45LC is limited to black powder pressure specs.
Pretty sure they(TC) just bought Green Mountain Barrels, which was where some of their stuff came from if I’m not mistaken. I believe they also have some products made by MGM, and maybe still do?
Maybe I’m crazy and none of this is right?
This is mostly true. For hot factory loads, there’s still Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Garrett, and the like.
I know the Green Mountain is true. Midway has T/C barrels as coming soon. Although it looks like a bunch of iron sight unthreaded stuff. I hope they get with the times and offer rails and threaded at a better price than the custom shops.
Might make me more serious about getting into a TC if that happens. I’ve always like the idea, just never seen the setups I want to make me jump in
You can pick up SSK barrels threaded with rail for 400-475ish. The T/C barrels will be about 350-385, but iron sites and not threaded. MGM seems to be 600+
I still want a .458 Socom SBR to shoot heavies someday, but it has not risen to the top of the funding list yet. My heavy subsonic hunting wild hair has been mostly satisfied by a Ruger 77/44 and Henry X in .44 shooting 300gr and 305gr subs, although I'd love to try even heavier if I could find them readily available. The Henry wears a Holosun red dot for hunting season and worked pretty well on the little deer I plunked with it last year, hopefully more to come this year. The .44 is quite quiet with a .45 can running ~ 10gr to 12gr of AA#7 or HS6.
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Match grade machine makes encore and contender barrels still, to order.
Interesting opportunity for a cartridge comparison. A 338 Spectre pushes a 300gr Maker expanding sub. I'm using a TBAC 338U. It's on an Origin action in a BCA chassis using MDT 6 ARC AICS mags. These two cartridges seem like they have similar capabilities. I'm using a much higher performance 338 can but it is also ridiculously large. My rifle would not be so easy to carry around and point and shoot quickly, but it does have a folding stock. And is likely overall shorter, even without folding the stock. The lever gun is definitely going to be more suited to a walk and snap-shoot type of platform, especially with follow up shots.
Besides the form factor of the rifle feeding the cartridge, It seems like it comes down to what kind of bullet do you want to push? Wide and flat? Or longer and skinnier? I think you can get expanding bullets for both. Although for the 44 it probably ends up being a lighter bullet once you get one that is made to expand at slower velocities. The Spectre is likely quieter since it's using two grains less powder charge. And it is using a higher performance rifle suppressor versus a smaller multi-cal 45 can but you pay for it in terms of having something that still points halfway naturally, probably.
I've gotten the itch for a .338 ARC occasionally since it came out, but it's always a hard sell vs my .44s for my uses, and if I'm going to spend the money on building up a bolt SBR, shooting subs, I'm going larger to a .458 not smaller for a hunting rig with a hard speed limit.
I big factor for me was cost, I like to shoot as much as I can. One of the things that keeps me out of the .338 sub business is the total lack of cheaper bullets, especially bullets meant to perform at subsonic velocities. They obviously do exist, but the makers you mentioned are $1.28 per by my count and I don't really see any viable subsonic hunting options much cheaper. You can shoot somewhat cheaper 300gr matchkings for $1 per, but the best you can hope for performance wise is a .338 hole in and maybe a tumble before it exists.
In contrast, you can load .44 and .45 for dirt cheap and bullets that are suited to the high subsonic range are not much of an upsell. The 305gr hps in my picture were $.24 per, shipped. For range use the 300gr MBC and 310gr Robs powder coat bullets I cost me $.24 and $.19 per. My more expensive bullets that I plan on hunting with this year are 300gr XTPs at $.44 per, but I don't really use them for plinking. Coated bullets in the more common 240gr range are even cheaper.
Powder loads I've used range from the 7.6gr range for cast bullets and faster powders like Longshot, CFEp and W231 up to the 10gr - 12gr range for jacketed bullets and slower powders like AA#7 and HS6. I've attached some of my loads below.
All of that said, my use case is shooting deer in the woods on my property, using off nominal stuff for fun. I'm sure the .338 ARC is probably easier to find a good load for, getting top accuracy from pistol cartridges at 100yds can be challenging and I'm good with 2.5" - 3.5" 5 shot groups for my purpose. 100yds is also the extreme edge of the range that I have a practical use for subsonic hunting rounds, drop on any subsonic round requires compensating for the difference between 50yds and 100yds, and quickly gets goofy after that.
To each their own though, I may yet build a bolt SBR in .450 BM or .458 Socom some day just for the fun of slinging some of those big 400gr - 600gr heavies. I do agree that for the OP's requirements, something like the Ruger in .450 BM is probably an easy button to get geared up and shooting.
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You can find bulk 338 bullets for $.50 a piece every once in a while. I bought 500 250gr for that last year. I think I paid $1 a piece for the makers. When you get into the big bore heavies I think expensive bullets just comes with the game of expanding subs with 300-500gr bullets if that's what you're after.
the main reason I stick with .450 Bushmaster as far as cartridge of choice is that I also shoot (and reload) the 460 S&W mag and 45LC, and the bullet diameter is the same across the board for those (.452). There are a metric ton of different bullet designs in that diameter ranging from tipped to flat nose, softcast, hardcast, A-frame, hollowpoints, subsonics, etc. so it offers me a wide variety of options and weights for projectile choice on all three platforms
That's definitely an advantage, it seems like it should be possible to run powder coated .458 heavies through a basic .452 sizer, probably with some lube and run them in a .450 BM. Something like this:
Not sure what twist rate you'd need to stabilize, but I've sized .432 coated lead bullets down to .430 without lube or issues, that would give the .450 a huge range of bullet weights from ~180gr all the way up to ~600gr.
I've killed a lot of shit with the 450BM with 395SubX and 500gr cast, 308win with LeHigh 174 and 300blk with the 194ME.
I have ordered a few 100s of Maker 338 REX 350gr but haven't decided on what chambering (338 ARC or 86 BLK) yet.
Subsonic is all about shot placement, tight consistent SD/ES, using the right powder for the right bullet and bullet style.
The only SubX that works is the 395gr in 450 and the 410gr in the 458.
All of the other ones (300blk, 338arc, 762x39) are absolute dogshit and won't expand worth a shit. If you're going to use a 30cal-375cal bullet then use an expanding copper (lehigh, maker, etc)
I have ordered a few 100s of Maker 338 REX 350gr but haven't decided on what chambering (338 ARC or 86 BLK) yet.
Subsonic is all about shot placement, tight consistent SD/ES, using the right powder for the right bullet and bullet style.
The only SubX that works is the 395gr in 450 and the 410gr in the 458.
All of the other ones (300blk, 338arc, 762x39) are absolute dogshit and won't expand worth a shit. If you're going to use a 30cal-375cal bullet then use an expanding copper (lehigh, maker, etc)
Tromix makes 458 SOCOM barrels, 1:14 and a fast twist in 1:10 just for heavy subs.
I have a 1:14 16.25" and have shot the 500g buzzsaws and they were stable. Don't think I would get away with it from a 10" though. I didn't go fast twist as I am 99% supersonic with this rig. Hearing safe sledge hammer.
SSK also sells a fast twist 44 Mag barrel for the Contender.
Affirmative black butterfly. It was with an origin action and black collar arms chassis on a xcaliber barrel.
Like @Old Man with Gun said if you plan on running heavy subs, run the numbers on the revolutions needed to stabilize them big pills, when I ran the numbers I was close on 1:14 but would’ve prolly needed even faster.
Now running those 425gr buzzsaws out of a 1:16tw 16” barrel they stabilize fine and wallop deer.
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