For argument's sake- lets say you found yourself having dinner with the world's foremost WWII historian- what would you ask them?

LuckyDuck

LuckyDuck

Old Salt
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Nov 4, 2020
    3,476
    9,927
    Pennsylvania
    #1
    Kind of a silly question but one I've been thinking of lately. I'm a history nerd by all measures and the subjects question stirs all kind of thoughts in my own head.

    As an example- I'm quite interested in the missing artwork stories & how they traveled by rails. Irreplaceable things such as the amber room that just disappeared in the chaos of war and haven't been seen since.

    Or the fascination the Nazi's had with the occult and the obscene resources they were willing to commit to finding legendary artifacts such as the 'holy grail'. Almost 100 years worth of history & questions now but the one question I think I'd ask given the scenario of sitting next to the worlds most knowledgeable WWII historian-

    I think it'd be why in the world would Nazi Germany attack the Soviet Union and create a two front war when they had a nonaggression agreement? I don't think I've ever seen a clear answer to that particular question.

    Was it arrogance? Maybe.. but say what you will about the Nazi's- I think we can all agree they weren't "dumb" and didn't wander into a two front war.

    If that's an accurate statement- then the question remains- why? I've thought a lot about this & the best/most logical explanation I can come up with is Germany caught wind that the Soviet Union was going to violate their nonaggression pact and decided to act first & hope to be graced with the tactical advantage given with the element of surprise.

    Your thoughts?

    -LD
     
    #2
    You are aware that the Nazis were Socialists that HATED Communism right? The Soviets were Communists. Also, I love how you preface your thread with "kind of a silly question". Not like that ever stopped you before! :ROFLMAO:

    Anyways, I guess the only question I'd ask is how the Truman administration was able to be so easily fooled by the Jews into creating the state of Israel. The holocaust didn't happen. The Jews weren't genocided, they were expelled. This was all knowledge at the time, so it aint something new that was just discovered. I'm not the biggest Harry Truman fan, but he's one of the very few Democrat Presidents I have respect for. So it's just disappointing looking back in hindsight that the problems we have with Israel nowadays never would've happened if Israel was never declared a state.
     
    • Like
    • Sad
    Reactions: faylix and MO Fugga
    #3
    Hitler and the Nazis were definitely Socialists, but Hitler pretended to be a Communist for a while until he could get his Nazi party started. Socialists, Fascists, and Communists are all left wing radicals who have many similar views. Let us not forget the street opinion is that Hitler and Mussolini are the the two most well known Fascists.

    Amongst Americans, and especially us Conservatives and Christians, we know the objective facts are that the Holocaust did happen, and we know that the lands of Israel are historically the land of the Jewish people.

    I'm not part of the tiny but vocal fringe who hate Jews and Law Enforcement.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: faylix
    #4
    Maser said:
    You are aware that the Nazis were Socialists that HATED Communism right? The Soviets were Communists. Also, I love how you preface your thread with "kind of a silly question". Not like that ever stopped you before! :ROFLMAO:

    Anyways, I guess the only question I'd ask is how the Truman administration was able to be so easily fooled by the Jews into creating the state of Israel. The holocaust didn't happen. The Jews weren't genocided, they were expelled. This was all knowledge at the time, so it aint something new that was just discovered. I'm not the biggest Harry Truman fan, but he's one of the very few Democrat Presidents I have respect for. So it's just disappointing looking back in hindsight that the problems we have with Israel nowadays never would've happened if Israel was never declared a state.
    Click to expand...
    I mean it's a valid question-

    Marxism was better suited towards Germany than (at the time) Russia given the propulation percentage of the "working class". Then you had the Bolshevik rebellion and Germany was trying to create their own "version" while at the same time superheating themselves from the Bolsheviks.

    Germany did some wild things at that time- first and foremost was creating a "German" identity which didn't really exist at the time. There were "Germanic" people sharing similar language but this was an area long entrenched with tribal culture outside of this. You had your Prussian groups & Bavarian groups and they all saw themselves as being uniquely separate.

    Fast forward- you have a... "movement" trying to unify a group of people and you find pseudo science being presented to support this Arian race theory. It's freaking wild the more you dig into this.

    But the question remains- why the hell would Germany create a two front war?
     
    #6
    Milf Dots said:
    Hitler and the Nazis were definitely Socialists, but Hitler pretended to be a Communist for a while until he could get his Nazi party started. Socialists, Fascists, and Communists are all left wing radicals who have many similar views. Let us not forget the street opinion is that Hitler and Mussolini are the the two most well known Fascists.

    Amongst Americans, and especially us Conservatives and Christians, we know the objective facts are that the Holocaust did happen, and we know that the lands of Israel are historically the land of the Jewish people.

    I'm not part of the tiny but vocal fringe who hate Jews and Law Enforcement.
    Click to expand...
    On the topic of Jews-

    I was watching a documentary or two today about the mindset that predated Nazi Germany. One of the remarks that struck with me was there was a "blood in the soil" movement & Jews had previously been prohibited from owning land.

    The argument/point that was raised was due to this Jewish prohibition of land ownership 80% of the businesses in the cities were Jewish owned. Then you have characters such as Himler that detested city life (with the Jewish population representing 80% of business ownership) & wanting to go back to a more traditional (again "blood in the soil" movement).

    It's wild stuff.
     
    #7
    I forgot to mention that yes, Hitler saw that Stalin was going to violate their "alliance" and Hitler reacted rather foolishly. But make no mistake- Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Che, ALL Leftist leaders were and are evil.
     
    #8
    i would ask why nobody that talks about the countless innocents that were slaughtered in jewish pogroms in poland, the ukraine and other places, for decades before the nazis rose to power.
     
    #11
    Milf Dots said:
    I forgot to mention that yes, Hitler saw that Stalin was going to violate their "alliance" and Hitler reacted rather foolishly. But make no mistake- Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Che, ALL Leftist leaders were and are evil.
    Click to expand...
    Not disagreeing with you but the question remains- why the hell would Nazi Germany attack the Soviet Union creating a 2 front war when they had a (for all intents & purposes) treaty to not fight each other previously established?

    I often hear it's due to arrogance but I don't know if I personally buy into that theory- I think the more likely explanation is that Germany believed the Soviet Union was going to violate the nonaggression pact & decided to act first (although I haven't seen anything official supporting that narrative either).

    But that's the only scenario that makes sense to me personally.

    -LD
     
    #12
    LuckyDuck said:
    On the topic of Jews-

    I was watching a documentary or two today about the mindset that predated Nazi Germany. One of the remarks that struck with me was there was a "blood in the soil" movement & Jews had previously been prohibited from owning land.

    The argument/point that was raised was due to this Jewish prohibition of land ownership 80% of the businesses in the cities were Jewish owned. Then you have characters such as Himler that detested city life (with the Jewish population representing 80% of business ownership) & wanting to go back to a more traditional (again "blood in the soil" movement).

    It's wild stuff.
    Click to expand...
    thomas sowell talks about the resentment of "middlemen minorites", like jewish shop owners, because of the (wrong) perception that because they simply sold things they did not make for a profit, this was somehow bad. he also points out that other middlemen minorities have suffered similarly throughout history (like the armenians). i read the book but was glad to find this.

     
    • Like
    Reactions: Ronws and Milf Dots
    #17
    Maser said:
    You are aware that the Nazis were Socialists that HATED Communism right? The Soviets were Communists. Also, I love how you preface your thread with "kind of a silly question". Not like that ever stopped you before! :ROFLMAO:

    Anyways, I guess the only question I'd ask is how the Truman administration was able to be so easily fooled by the Jews into creating the state of Israel. The holocaust didn't happen. The Jews weren't genocided, they were expelled. This was all knowledge at the time, so it aint something new that was just discovered. I'm not the biggest Harry Truman fan, but he's one of the very few Democrat Presidents I have respect for. So it's just disappointing looking back in hindsight that the problems we have with Israel nowadays never would've happened if Israel was never declared a state.
    Click to expand...
    Maser, you have chosen to believe what you desire and you are absolutely, 100%, wrong about the Jews not being "genocided". My grandfather was US Army in Germany during WWII and told me a story of liberating a camp. He spoke of it, to me, only once, in my 43 years, before he died, because it was so horrific. I assure you, he was an absolutely reliable source and I assure you, you are wrong.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: faylix, Woodlanddude and Milf Dots
    #19
    • Like
    Reactions: mosin46
    #27
    LuckyDuck said:
    I think it'd be why in the world would Nazi Germany attack the Soviet Union and create a two front war when they had a nonaggression agreement? I don't think I've ever seen a clear answer to that particular question.
    Click to expand...
    It's simple as fuck, Hitler always viewed the conflict as an existential war between Europeans (Germany) and Slavs.

    Germany attacked France first precisely because they couldn't win a two front war and then moved onto the real meat and potatoes, exterminating slavs as a people and removing them from Europe.

    And no, it wasn't really a two front war when Barbarossa started. If you really want to understand the scale at which the Germans fucked up, look at who they appointed as head of intelligence for the war against Russia, his sources were basically just "trust me bro", which meant Operation Barbarossa (the destruction of the Red Army) was fucked from the start.
     
    #29
    theLBC said:
    probably ambrose, but we can't ask him anything.
    Click to expand...

    I’d say it was Richard Ovary, William Manchester or most probably Carlo D’Este. But what do I know?

    Sirhr

    PS. Truman didn’t create Israel. See my post from last week. Truman tried to thwart it because it rocked boats in Middle East that he didn’t want rocked. Palestinian Jews and Zionists and displaced persons from Europe created Israel. Truman had zero to do with it. Recognizing after the fact is not creating.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: crackerbrown, faylix and BLEE
    #31
    Eostech said:
    It's simple as fuck, Hitler always viewed the conflict as an existential war between Europeans (Germany) and Slavs.

    Germany attacked France first precisely because they couldn't win a two front war and then moved onto the real meat and potatoes, exterminating slavs as a people and removing them from Europe.

    And no, it wasn't really a two front war when Barbarossa started. If you really want to understand the scale at which the Germans fucked up, look at who they appointed as head of intelligence for the war against Russia, his sources were basically just "trust me bro", which meant Operation Barbarossa (the destruction of the Red Army) was fucked from the start.
    Click to expand...
    France was the 5th country Germany invaded. Austria Czechoslovakia Poland Norway came before France. You said France was 1st, that is not correct. Also Germany was pushing in Africa with aspirations to reach the middle east, there were more than 2 fronts and a Naval war.

    My question is a bit multi faceted but would be. Had Roosevelt not passed away in April of 45, do you think he would have pushed back against the Soviets grabbing a strong position in China, Korea and Eastern Europe as the fighting stalled out momentarily. Did the Soviets take advantage of Truman? Would this have avoided many of the hold over “cold war” conflicts we fought not long after German and Japan surrender, resulting in Russia becoming the “enemy”?
     
    #35
    Rthur said:
    What are the top 10 lies that have been accepted as fact?

    R
    Click to expand...
    [1] russia would have lost without our support [2] china would have lost without our support [3] the atomic bomb alone ended ww2 [4] us tanks are the best [5] macarthur deserved his medals [6] us torpedoes are the best [7] you can put a bomb in a picklebarrel with the norden bombsight [8] italy is the soft underbelly [9] dieppe [10] us strategic bombing promises vs results
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Sean the Nailer and Eostech
    #36
    Username* said:
    France was the 5th country Germany invaded. Austria Czechoslovakia Poland Norway came before France. You said France was 1st, that is not correct. Also Germany was pushing in Africa with aspirations to reach the middle east, there were more than 2 fronts and a Naval war.
    Click to expand...
    No retard, I said that Germany attacked France first in the context of being at war with either France or the USSR, which is correct.

    If you think a country of 80 million people couldn't spare a Corp in North Africa, I don't know what to tell you.
     
    #37
    LuckyDuck said:
    Not disagreeing with you but the question remains- why the hell would Nazi Germany attack the Soviet Union creating a 2 front war when they had a (for all intents & purposes) treaty to not fight each other previously established?

    I often hear it's due to arrogance but I don't know if I personally buy into that theory- I think the more likely explanation is that Germany believed the Soviet Union was going to violate the nonaggression pact & decided to act first (although I haven't seen anything official supporting that narrative either).

    But that's the only scenario that makes sense to me personally.

    -LD
    Click to expand...
    The arrogance argument has some merrit I think. Do not forget that many german generals at the time were WW1 vets. And in their experience France was the greater threat since Germany actually defeated the Russians in that war.

    So when France fell so quickly I am sure they were riding high in their opinion that if their main opponent from WW1 fell so quickly the other nation that they already defeated once would be no problem with their new way of war fighting.
     
    #38
    Eostech said:
    No retard, I said that Germany attacked France first in the context of being at war with either France or the USSR, which is correct.

    If you think a country of 80 million people couldn't spare a Corp in North Africa, I don't know what to tell you.
    Click to expand...
    You know they invaded Greece and Yugoslavia before they started fighting the Soviets.

    Reading what you originally wrote, the 1st remark, in the context of the conflict seemed to be ignoring the order in which Germany invade countries. France was 5th, Soviets were the 8th.

    Italy had more troops in Africa and was the main part of the Axis force, not the Germans.

    Take care, have yourself a nice day.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: crackerbrown
    #39
    I know what I'd ask her.

    what-are-you-wearing-wondering.gif
     
    #40
    Username* said:
    France was the 5th country Germany invaded. Austria Czechoslovakia Poland Norway came before France. You said France was 1st, that is not correct. Also Germany was pushing in Africa with aspirations to reach the middle east, there were more than 2 fronts and a Naval war.

    My question is a bit multi faceted but would be. Had Roosevelt not passed away in April of 45, do you think he would have pushed back against the Soviets grabbing a strong position in China, Korea and Eastern Europe as the fighting stalled out momentarily. Did the Soviets take advantage of Truman? Would this have avoided many of the hold over “cold war” conflicts we fought not long after German and Japan surrender, resulting in Russia becoming the “enemy”?
    Click to expand...

    Don't forget Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland... Germans went into France through the Ardennes and Holland in the North and Lux in the South. I mean... those were speedbumps. But they were 'sort of' relevant countries. In a speed bump sort of way.

    Doubt Roosevelt would have served his full second term (several references say that he was planning on finishing the war and resigning... which makes Truman a more interesting Veep choice.) But if he had kept up, he had a much better ability to push Stalin. And he likely WOULD have pushed for an Israel. Because he had been pushing it before hed died. But he died. And Truman had no insight into the discussions with Ibn Saud or the Roosevelt recognition of the Balfour Agreement or similar. Truman thought it a distraction and had no interest in Israel. In fact... he wanted to prevent an Israel to protect Aramco and US interests in the newly-emerging strategic Gulf region.

    That said, I think (and this is opinion) Stalin thought Roosevelt weak and dying. So might have pushed him harder. Roosevelt thought his charm and persuasion could win over Stalin. I have a hunch Stalin saw another old dying rich American establishment guy and would have steamrollered Roosevelt more than he got away with when it came to Truman. Who was a 'street fighter' and was not going to get pushed by a commie thug.

    But this is all speculation.

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    • Like
    Reactions: mosin46, crackerbrown and FWoo45
    #41
    Username* said:
    You know they invaded Greece and Yugoslavia before they started fighting the Soviets.

    Reading what you originally wrote, the 1st remark, in the context of the conflict seemed to be ignoring the order in which Germany invade countries. France was 5th, Soviets were the 8th.

    Italy had more troops in Africa and was the main part of the Axis force, not the Germans.

    Take care, have yourself a nice day.
    Click to expand...

    The Germans had no intention of invading Greece or getting there through Yugo...

    But the bloviating idiot Mussolini (watch me swing from my toes, Hitler!) tried to invade Greece and fucked it up so Bad that the Germans had to clean up the mess. Sort of like they fucked up Ethiopia. And Libya. And became a millstone around the Austrian Painter's neck for the whole war. Sort of the Fiat of invading armies.

    This Italian adventure diverted quite a few German divisions from the planned USSR invasion... and delayed Barbarossa significantly. This delay cost the Germans Moscow. Not the war. But Moscow.

    Loss of Moscow would not likely have caused USSR to "Surrender" as they would have still moved everything East into the Urals. including the Politburo. Which they did anyway... all the factories and economy. So nothing would have really changed, except Moscow would have been destroyed. But the Wehrmacht would have taken Moscow almost certainly if they had another month of weather. Which would have had a psychological impact on the war... If not an ultimate outcome change.

    Read Richard Overy... Why the Allies Won. From the '70s. An economists analysis of WW2. And he showed beyond reasonable doubt that the Krauts, Wops and Nips were finished before it started. It all came down to economics. And the Axis were too stupid to do the math. You know... racial supremacy and all that. Including the Dagos... who thought they were Roman Legions or something. When, really, they had spent 1800 years drinking water out of lead pipes and fought accordingly.

    The Best of Italy migrated to New York in the early 1900's... Just 'sayin!

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
     
    • Like
    • Haha
    Reactions: mosin46, Eostech and FWoo45
    #42
    Username* said:
    You know they invaded Greece and Yugoslavia before they started fighting the Soviets.

    Reading what you originally wrote, the 1st remark, in the context of the conflict seemed to be ignoring the order in which Germany invade countries. France was 5th, Soviets were the 8th.

    Italy had more troops in Africa and was the main part of the Axis force, not the Germans.

    Take care, have yourself a nice day.
    Click to expand...
    Ladies underwear red panties on the couch.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: timesublime
    #43
    Username* said:
    You know they invaded Greece and Yugoslavia before they started fighting the Soviets.

    Reading what you originally wrote, the 1st remark, in the context of the conflict seemed to be ignoring the order in which Germany invade countries. France was 5th, Soviets were the 8th.

    Italy had more troops in Africa and was the main part of the Axis force, not the Germans.

    Take care, have yourself a nice day.
    Click to expand...
    You have no reading comprehension at all.
     
    #48
    sirhrmechanic said:
    The Germans had no intention of invading Greece or getting there through Yugo...

    But the bloviating idiot Mussolini (watch me swing from my toes, Hitler!) tried to invade Greece and fucked it up so Bad that the Germans had to clean up the mess. Sort of like they fucked up Ethiopia. And Libya. And became a millstone around the Austrian Painter's neck for the whole war. Sort of the Fiat of invading armies.

    This Italian adventure diverted quite a few German divisions from the planned USSR invasion... and delayed Barbarossa significantly. This delay cost the Germans Moscow. Not the war. But Moscow.

    Loss of Moscow would not likely have caused USSR to "Surrender" as they would have still moved everything East into the Urals. including the Politburo. Which they did anyway... all the factories and economy. So nothing would have really changed, except Moscow would have been destroyed. But the Wehrmacht would have taken Moscow almost certainly if they had another month of weather. Which would have had a psychological impact on the war... If not an ultimate outcome change.

    Read Richard Overy... Why the Allies Won. From the '70s. An economists analysis of WW2. And he showed beyond reasonable doubt that the Krauts, Wops and Nips were finished before it started. It all came down to economics. And the Axis were too stupid to do the math. You know... racial supremacy and all that. Including the Dagos... who thought they were Roman Legions or something. When, really, they had spent 1800 years drinking water out of lead pipes and fought accordingly.

    The Best of Italy migrated to New York in the early 1900's... Just 'sayin!

    Cheers,

    Sirhr
    Click to expand...
    not an argument but i have heard it suggested that the later start to Barbarossa would not have mattered. the rasputitsa ended later than normal and mud would have slowed the Germans down anyway. this is a rarely agreed idea,so i don't know.
    interesting point about loss of Moscow not ending it. i think depends on Stalin's survival. he didn't leave Moscow,so an interesting thought. if he had been killed i think USSR tanks. if not it survives. IMHO German barbarism lost them the war. they act friendly in Ukraine and that people fight Stalin. millions did anyway. the holocaust was a huge waste of time,resources and effort-obviously unnecessary. WW! had several Jewish war heroes,including a blue max winning ace. get the nuc scientist Jews on your side and get an end game if the engineering in Germany is up to it.
    skip the battle of Britain and preserve the Luftwaffe. Mediterranean strategy a winner. almost won with a small panzer commitment. keep enough troops in the east to guard against Russia and support Rommel big time. no worries about Baku oil.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Maggot
    #49
    mosin46 said:
    not an argument but i have heard it suggested that the later start to Barbarossa would not have mattered. the rasputitsa ended later than normal and mud would have slowed the Germans down anyway. this is a rarely agreed idea,so i don't know.
    interesting point about loss of Moscow not ending it. i think depends on Stalin's survival. he didn't leave Moscow,so an interesting thought. if he had been killed i think USSR tanks. if not it survives. IMHO German barbarism lost them the war. they act friendly in Ukraine and that people fight Stalin. millions did anyway. the holocaust was a huge waste of time,resources and effort-obviously unnecessary. WW! had several Jewish war heroes,including a blue max winning ace. get the nuc scientist Jews on your side and get an end game if the engineering in Germany is up to it.
    skip the battle of Britain and preserve the Luftwaffe. Mediterranean strategy a winner. almost won with a small panzer commitment. keep enough troops in the east to guard against Russia and support Rommel big time. no worries about Baku oil.
    Click to expand...
    Yep, had he taken his time he could have owned Europe, consolidated, then moved on.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.

    Similar threads

    Edsel
    GET YOUR NUCLEAR STIFFY RIGHT HERE!
    Replies
    41
    Views
    6K
    Edsel
    Edsel
    Bender
    Satanism and Government. Deeper than you ever imagined.
    Replies
    101
    Views
    9K
    232593
    232593
    Maggot
    Si Speigel
    Replies
    3
    Views
    2K
    lonegunman762x51
    lonegunman762x51
    sirhrmechanic
    Let's start by taking back our Language! Great read!
    Replies
    13
    Views
    2K
    hankpac
    hankpac
    ArmyJerry
    Happy Birthday U.S. ARMY 242 Years Old
    Replies
    17
    Views
    2K
    gunsnjeeps
    gunsnjeeps
    Top Bottom
    Back
    Home
    Forums
    Merch
    Alerts