For argument's sake- lets say you found yourself having dinner with the world's foremost WWII historian- what would you ask them?

[LuckyDuck]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin...?

Fair enough.

And once again, I'm not trying to be a jerk/dick to you either... That said- I'm not sure I see how your response relates to the question you quoted is all..?

If I'm missing your point- I think I'm man enough to own that and give you your credit, I'm just not seeing how your response relates to my bewilderment of a two front war...

That said.. I'm about to start another post/question in which your response will be so on point you won't know what to do with yourself...

-LD

 

[Guthwine]

I'm not trying to be an ass to you by any means (it is the internet & context is hard to come by hence my clarifying that) but to your point- I know that's what I was personally taught but the more I dig into the past (admittedly using different/'unapproved' sources) the more I'm questioning that particular narrative.

I can only speak for myself but the counterpoint I'm frequently coming apart to the "Hitler was arrogant" perspective seems to be "Hitler was high off of crack & had been for years".

None of which are anything other than extremes in a bigger argument that is somehow separate from the arrogance discussion/yet still related...

My point though- Hitler may have been a military genius utilizing the blitzkrieg earlier in the war and predicting the response from the Allies... conversely he might have been a fortunate idiot that just "lucked out".

I don't personally subscribe to the latter option though & I'll tell you why briefly. Hitler was by all intents & purposes 50/50 in taking control. He failed the 1st time (went to jail & wrote about his struggle) but had enough support that he popped right outta prison (as a literary heavyweight mind you) with a quasi army behind him and the second time around he "won" and everyone else in the country seemed to shrug and say- yeah makes sense.

Perhaps there are better educated historians on the Hide than I but that said- I recall in years past researching Hitler's experiences in WWI and there being a direct link to what we now call chemical/biological warfare & Hitler's refusal to incorporate those weapons during WWII.

If I'm wrong- I'm sure I'll be corrected & that's ok & for the better. That said- I think I'm remembering this right because in years past I recall thinking how... don't know what other word to us other than "odd" it would be for Hitler, as a WWI veteran who had seen combat, would draw a line at Germany using mustard gas during WWII to the point of Hitler personally saying no.

Think about this- you've got a... fellow who was at best, what a corporal during WWI? He had an otherwise 'unpleasant' experience during that time period of 4 years or so (buddy you better believe I can at least relate to that much), and then the story goes- after the war he decided to... well frankly say "fuck it" & say the war is over, 'we'/(aka Germany) lost, and to prove my anger- a Corporal is going to recover from a mustard gas attack, say 'fuck it all', abandon the German Army, and pursue painting like they were fucking Bob Ross.

Gents- that's exactly what we're told happened.

Why are you breaking the arrogance argument down to Hitler only?
Rommel, Guderian, Mannstein, Goering etc all served in WW1 and it would be logical for them to think little of the Russian army compared to the French who humiliated them before.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Why are you breaking the arrogance argument down to Hitler only?
Rommel, Guderian, Mannstein, Goering etc all served in WW1 and it would be logical for them to think little of the Russian army compared to the French who humiliated them before.

Great question (sincerely)-

Rommel was in Africa until what '43? (reason I say that is because there's 'D-Day' ramifications when they brought the 'desert fox' up & he was vacationing in Paris with his family during the day "that will live in infamy".

Goering- that was the German Air Force/lufftwarffe ace right?

Guderian was the tanker general? So here's a story/documentary I came across just in the past week on Nazi Armor. The allegation was that there was something like only two documented American vs Nazi Armor battles in the history of the WWII European theater & (as an accessory point to that supposed fact) the argument was made that by the time of D-Day Germany had established a "defensive force" and behind the Atlantic Wall there were 10 anti-tank batteries to ever German Tiger tank. Argument being that for every 10 battles the Shermans had against Nazi anti-armor batteries, they encounter "just one" Nazi tank.

Full disclosure- I haven't vetted/researched that statement and have not much more to offer on it other than without researching the accusation further- there might be some clout/merit to the story.

-LD

 

[Eostech]

then "something" changed.

Yeah, he was paid by the feds to join the DAP and spy on them.

Now this 'dude' who 'sucked at painting' was now the speaker for Germany (I assure you he had folks behind the scenes setting up the stage, telling him what to say, & pulling the strings)- but you never hear about that do you?

This is actually quite well documented.

 

[Eostech]

The allegation was that there was something like only two documented American vs Nazi Armor battles in the history of the WWII European theater & (as an accessory point to that supposed fact) the argument was made that by the time of D-Day Germany had established a "defensive force" and behind the Atlantic Wall there were 10 anti-tank batteries to ever German Tiger tank. Argument being that for every 10 battles the Shermans had against Nazi anti-armor batteries, they encounter "just one" Nazi tank.

Fuck's sake, almost any moron should know that the British handled the Panzer divisions in Normandy. Plus German production numbers are pretty well known and thought to be accurate, do you know what a Stug is perchance?

 

[LuckyDuck]

Fuck's sake, almost any moron should know that the British handled the Panzer divisions in Normandy. Plus German production numbers are pretty well known and thought to be accurate, do you know what a Stug is perchance?

Instead of trying to pick an argument with me specifically- perhaps your energy would be better spent sharing your knowledge/thoughts with everyone else here…

 

[sloporsche]

Now this is an informed comment I can worth with- care to elaborate on this (and for the record I'm not poking fun at you as much as I'm just excited someone might know what I'm getting at).

As a reference point, here's 'an official story' of somewhat recent publication.... https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/06/05/miracle-at-midway/

What's the consensus here (on SH)- did we pull a "Hail Mary" like the general public/consumers of media (damn that was almost 100 years ago before that term existed) who understood American football references or did we "bend the truth for the greater good" and never see fit to correct the record?

I mean I have my thoughts on the topic but that's just one Duck's opinion at the end of the day.

-LD

That navy times article was kinda weak it never touched on hornets flights to nowhere by mitscher / ring and what waldron did to say the least . This battle was 6 months into ww2 and the US on the whole was just learning ......we got lucky that day and made less mistakes than the japanese

 

[Eostech]

Instead of trying to pick an argument with me specifically- perhaps your energy would be better spent sharing your knowledge/thoughts with everyone else here…

I'm more so baffled than looking to argue, Americans tend to have distinct views on WW2 that don't even seem to match what their fellow Americans wrote back when it happened.

So the first step is to look at where this information is coming from (allied reports and records mostly) and what is missing (almost the entirety of Germany's reports and records).

Look at Normandy for example (3-ish months), the British (this figure is mostly based off wartime estimates TBF) generally settled on 450,000 German casualties with 210,000 captured and 240,000 wounded or killed but if we look at German casualty documents for the same period over the entire western front we have 23,000 KIA, 67,000 WIA and 198,000 MIA for a total of 290,000, Normandy it's self seems to be 210,000 combined KIA/WIA/MIA.

A lot of modern historians get shit wrong too as it suits their bias, one even wrote that the 12th SS had been reduced to 300 men and no tanks by Aug 22/23 after looking at a few German reports and getting confused list of suitable troops for commencing an attack, it was 300 riflemen from the 12th SS, not that the 12th SS Panzer division had been reduced to 300 men, it was in fact 12,000 strong at the time.

Regarding Americans destroying tanks, look at the Panzer Lehr counter attack at Le Désert 11/07/1944, the Americans, who vastly out numbered the Germans, claim 50 tanks destroyed by ground forces and 22 by air and yet the records from Panzer Lehr put their total tank losses at 22 tanks for the peroid of 1st to 15th of July 1944.

The battle depicted at the end of Saving Private Ryan was somewhat based on real life events, except the Germans were using these pieces of shit.

Not this.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I'll take " What American banker, whose great grandson, & great great grandson became presidents, was the banker backing Hitler? for 1K Alex.
And as a $2K bonus question, hatch a plan to over through the US gov later on?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I'm more so baffled than looking to argue, Americans tend to have distinct views on WW2 that don't even seem to match what their fellow Americans wrote back when it happened.

B/S numbers trends were at full speed, during Korea, and especially V/N. Most of those turning in B/S numbers were never checked yet always rewarded.

 

[Eostech]

That navy times article was kinda weak it never touched on hornets flights to nowhere by mitscher / ring and what waldron did to say the least . This battle was 6 months into ww2 and the US on the whole was just learning ......we got lucky that day and made less mistakes than the japanese

Good intelligence on what the Japs were planning, an unsinakble island and over 100 more planes than the japs, only miracle part of Midway was the repairs to the Yorktown.

 

[flogxal]

I like the cut of your jib.

-LD

I'll give credit to those who taught me how to move around on a Flying Scot day boat, working the sheets.

 

[sloporsche]

Winners get to write the history books ,you do not see too many best sellers titled ......how we lost . Then there is the whole homefront morale issue coupled with the need to safe guard intelligence sources lastly the politics of war where battle wins equal votes .

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Neither ignorance, nor obstinance are suitable counters to cognitive dissonance. You remind me of those so called Christians who go around yelling at people, "You saved? You're going to hell if you ain't saved." And then determining they're going to hell because you were dipped instead of submersed.Or because you say "Yeshua" in stead of "Jesus". You might want to get the tre out of your eye before you go picking at a splinter in someone welses. Grow up.

Never understood the Yeshua and Yahweh thing. I mean, Yeshua in English is Jesus, no? We don’t speak Hebrew or Aramaic, so I never understood why people felt the need to use Hebrew or Aramaic terms… but to each their own I reckon…

 

[mosin46]

I'm more so baffled than looking to argue, Americans tend to have distinct views on WW2 that don't even seem to match what their fellow Americans wrote back when it happened.

So the first step is to look at where this information is coming from (allied reports and records mostly) and what is missing (almost the entirety of Germany's reports and records).

Look at Normandy for example (3-ish months), the British (this figure is mostly based off wartime estimates TBF) generally settled on 450,000 German casualties with 210,000 captured and 240,000 wounded or killed but if we look at German casualty documents for the same period over the entire western front we have 23,000 KIA, 67,000 WIA and 198,000 MIA for a total of 290,000, Normandy it's self seems to be 210,000 combined KIA/WIA/MIA.

A lot of modern historians get shit wrong too as it suits their bias, one even wrote that the 12th SS had been reduced to 300 men and no tanks by Aug 22/23 after looking at a few German reports and getting confused list of suitable troops for commencing an attack, it was 300 riflemen from the 12th SS, not that the 12th SS Panzer division had been reduced to 300 men, it was in fact 12,000 strong at the time.

Regarding Americans destroying tanks, look at the Panzer Lehr counter attack at Le Désert 11/07/1944, the Americans, who vastly out numbered the Germans, claim 50 tanks destroyed by ground forces and 22 by air and yet the records from Panzer Lehr put their total tank losses at 22 tanks for the peroid of 1st to 15th of July 1944.

The battle depicted at the end of Saving Private Ryan was somewhat based on real life events, except the Germans were using these pieces of shit.

View attachment 8792731

Not this.

View attachment 8792738

a good point. but,in my reading i see "modern" historians often coming up with closer #s than during the 50s/60s,esp east front. battle of Kursk/Prokhrorvka is an example. the story,from the Russians,is that SS panzer was almost wipped out. not so if you read Nipe's work. he had the original German engaged/lost records in hand. 5th guards tank army was the 1 almost whipped out. very light SS losses. same goes for the alleged Alexeev"sniper battle" at Stalingrad. that was pure Russ BS. the sov fudging #s was ever more over the top than some of ours. you have to look,read and decide what you believe at the end. WW2 does still matter a lot. we are seeing the effects to this day really world wide.

 

[Maggot]

Never understood the Yeshua and Yahweh thing. I mean, Yeshua in English is Jesus, no? We don’t speak Hebrew or Aramaic, so I never understood why people felt the need to use Hebrew or Aramaic terms… but to each their own I reckon…

Its just more riligion, something else they can be diviseive over.