Gunsmithing Cost of barrel threading

[KHOOKS]

Searched the Gumsmithing thread but can't find cost of. Looking to get my MK II Savage And MK III Ruger threaded to a 1/2 X 28 for a Sparrow. Was wondering what the avarage cost of the thread job and thread protector for each would run.

Thanks,
Ken

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Our store charges $150 for a very professional/clean job, relative to bore not barrel, with thread protector. A little extra if front sight surgery is needed.

Usually 3-4 weeks turnaround.

 

[VKC]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

$150 is a fair price

 

[In2b8u]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Hooper Ordnance is in your neck of the woods. Here is a link to their home page
Go to gunsmithing for pricing.

HOOPER

On your Mk III are you getting the sights moved back? Might cost yoa a bit more.

Thread protectors may be helpful

Hope this helps.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Make sure you tell them its for a sparrow. It requires the front to be turned down for the oring in the can. There is a drawing of the threads on their site.

Great little suppressor.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

$125.00 to "wrinkle" a muzzle.

Gauged/qualified threads on a customized high end cnc turning center.

View the numerous threads by us to see the finished work.

C.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

In my shop it's a hundred dollar bill to painstakingly do it by hand dialed in the the actual bore centerline to less than .0001" runout. Will throw in a new crown if you need one. Will build you a custom totally blended thread protector for another $50.

 

[Hooper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

$135 plus shipping with protector
dialed in on the bore...bla...bla..bla

Here is a pic of a sparrow cut on a MKII

http://www.hooperordnance.com/ImageGalle...&cache=True

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my shop it's a hundred dollar bill to painstakingly <span style="font-weight: bold"> do it by hand </span> dialed in the the actual bore centerline to less than .0001" runout. Will throw in a new crown if you need one. Will build you a custom totally blended thread protector for another $50. </div></div>

You must not shake much if you can get within .0001 doing it by hand?? You'll be screwed if you get parkinson's, hell my dear Uncle can't hardly weld with his more less machine to those tolerances.

 

[Cheech]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

I took it that he meant manual(by hand) VS CNC. I could be wrong though.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

I hear people speak of indicating to .0001" or .0002", but never hear anything about keeping it there.




Here's an example, of what we do:
Cutting 5/8x24 x .600" muzzle threads will be the example.

1)Run lathe for a few minutes at 500RPM(this is what RPM we'd be cutting the tenon at).

2)Run barrel through headstock, Indicate bore to .0003"

3)Cut the tenon down to .635" x .597"(1st operation)

4)Re-check indication. It wont be .0003" or less anymore. It doesnt go out by much, only a couple .0001", but still, its not .0003" anymore.

5)Bring it back to .0003" or less

6)Finish tenon, cutting it to .624" x .600"(2nd operation)

7)Again, check indication and bring it back to .0003" or less IF it moved that time.

8)Cut threads.(3rd operation)

9)If crowning, we then check indication again to be sure it hasn't moved out of .0003" before crowning.


Re-indication between operations takes just a minute. It never gets pushed out much, but it does get pushed out some after the first operation, and only gets pushed out .0001" or so after the second operation.




I dont care if you indicate your barrel to .00001" with the machine in neutral and cool. You turn it on, run it, apply tool pressure to cut your part, heat up the machine... its not indicated in as tight as you think anymore.



Oh and my honest opinion, saying someone indicates to .0001" is nothing more than advertising. It might be true, but c'mon just say you do it right instead of seeing who can quote the smallest number.
Hired Gun uses the same lathe we do, and its a damn good lathe capable of very precise work. I believe him when he says he indicates to .0001".

But I know for a fact there is work being done on light ass little lathes that are not capable of holding work in the .0001" range during machining operations. Yet people brag about it.



....just my novice opinion.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

With my turning center I use C-16 collets in an indexable collet chuck made by Dunham. ($2500 setup for the chuck. Collets run between 100 and 140 each. I have 1/64th increments from 1/8 to 1-5/8)

The hydraulic drawbar is capable of applying up to 1200lbs of chuck pressure if I want/need it. For barrels I've never gone above 400psi. No reason to when you essentially have 360* of part captivation.

I turn my cylinders at 2500 rpm with flood coolant. Coolant pressure is 300psi.

I thread at 1500rpm again with flood coolant.

If dicks are meant to be measured then what the hell. I've checked TIR (total indicated runout) 6 ways from Sunday. The programming has planned interruptions at multiple intervals during barrel fitting to inspect runout. It's documented on all our build sheets.

According to my B/S indicator we routinely hold threads at or below an indicated .00005". Chambers never run more than .00025". We check at the shoulder/body junction and at the web.

They sure come out nice. We chamber at 300-400 rpm with a RIGID reamer setup. If the tool is straight and aligned then the tap wrench/vise grips can stay in the tool box.

No rings, no chatter (ever!) and to date chambers don't have "muffin top" at the web. It's nice to almost hear/envision the reamer suck air as its being retracted. That tells me the chamber is pretty dern near a perfect mirror image of what the tool is doing.

Let it be known my wiener is quite small, but I'm learning how to use it.

Have a great night.

C.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

if your work is moving when you cut the tenon, i'd certainly be asking myself why. 'cause it sure shouldn't be.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if your work is moving when you cut the tenon, i'd certainly be asking myself why. 'cause it sure shouldn't be. </div></div>

+1

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

and one more thing, a good machinist should know how to use their machine whether it be a sub 1k lb manual machine or a 10k lb cnc machine. if the bearings are tight and you know what the limits of your machine are, holding tight tolerances shouldn't be all that hard.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if your work is moving when you cut the tenon, i'd certainly be asking myself why. 'cause it sure shouldn't be. </div></div>

You say movement, but "movement" needs to be a little more defined.


Im talkin .0001ths


.0001" is a silly small number. Temperature can move things more than that.


When I see numbers posted with four or five 0's past the decimal point, I cant help but roll my eyes.


But I dont have the knowledge you two do.

I believe there are those with your knowledge that share my opinion, even if they don't voice it like I do.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But I dont have the ability/knowledge you two do. </div></div>

i don't know, it sounds like you've got it all figured out...

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But I dont have the ability/knowledge you two do. </div></div>

i don't know, it sounds like you've got it all figured out... </div></div>

Im honest in my opinions, honest in my work, and do the best I can.


And Chad I dont even know what to think/say about your methods and quoted numbers. You must be a millionaire.



The main point of my post is that I wonder how tight peoples tolerances really are. Im not calling anyone a liar that says they indicate to .0001". I just wonder if their parts are staying that tight while they cut them.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Isnt there in fact a thread where you are agreeing with what I said? About how indicating in to .0002" or so doesnt mean its staying there as the machine warms up and things change.

Pretty sure there is...

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isnt there in fact a thread where you are agreeing with what I said? About how indicating in to .0002" or so doesnt mean its staying there as the machine warms up and things change.

Pretty sure there is... </div></div>

part of this is running your machine in/warming up before you start your work. your work should not be moving in the work holding setup.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isnt there in fact a thread where you are agreeing with what I said? About how indicating in to .0002" or so doesnt mean its staying there as the machine warms up and things change.

Pretty sure there is... </div></div>

part of this is running your machine in/warming up before you start your work. your work should not be moving in the work holding setup. </div></div>

So as your part heats up, tool pressure is applied, and material is removed, you dont see it changing things by .0001" or more?


None of that matters, but machine temp definitely does??


Ok.
Im done dude. Said what I had to say.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Keith,

With a turning center, mill, etc the machine changes from cold to operating temperature. With my lathe its about a .0017" elevation in spindle height. A great deal of this is determined by the height of the spindle over the bed. More height equals more growth due to the shear mass of the casting.

With a mill you have similar and additional forces at play. My Haas will pick up about .0004-.0006 once its warmed up. The layer of oil on the ways does this. Box way machines are notorious for this as thats all that supports the work surface. My machine has linear raceways so it's not so much. The trade off is box ways offer the most rigidity of any machine.

Additionally the spindle cartridge will move around a bit as it warms up. Older/worn CAT40 holders are notorious for moving too because as the spindle warms up the taper grows slightly. The drawbar is spring loaded and it'll pull the entire assy up in the taper a pinch more. The real mother_ucker about this is when you shut the machine down at night and forget to pull the tool. It's likely going to be stuck and require a few whacks with a brass hammer in the morning. What's happening is the taper cools and clamps down around the tool holder.

This by the way is a great way to hold onto tools. Several tool makers now use induction heaters to swell a tool holder for clamping the tooling. Works great in this sense but is a pain in the ass on older CNC machines. One reason why spindle chillers are now basically standard equipment on higher end CNC machines.

Wanna test out your manual lathe? Put a breaker bar against the bed (use a block of wood) and against your chuck. Put an indicator on a jaw with the mag base attached to the headstock.

Next is the backlash of the cross slide and the deviation that takes place from vibration as the insert wipes across the surface of the part. I chose my lathe because it has a slant bed. This means gravity is always working to load the ball screw in one direction. Inspection grade gravity is free and machine manufacturers have learned to take advantage of it. My turret probably weighs as much or more than most manual lathes used for gun work. Again, newton's little law that can all be summarized into machines that repeat very well once a guy learns the quirks and moods of them.

See how much it moves with a little grunt effort. There's a reason why production grade equipment has mass and size. Weight and surface area tend to stay put. Newton's law at its best. . .

A 10th is a small number. Indeed. I worked in a metrology lab for a gear manufacturer in Wisconsin years ago. It took a machine valued at 7 figures to inspect a gear to a five decimal tolerance. I programmed/operated it. Zeiss/Hoffler CMM.

Suffice to say our little chicken chit Brown and Sharp indicators aren't even on the same playing field as something like this. You can eat a 10th in surface finish alone. Yet another reason why I preach so hard about insert carbide tooling and using it at the SFM that its designed to operate at. You get a better finish and that is just as important as the holy grail zero indicated bore center.

Be that as it may the one I have was used for years when I setup/ran wire EDM's. The parts came out good and those machines are very capable of producing 5,6,7 decimal place parts so I have to think it'll work for a goofball gun chamber.

Enjoy your Saturday germs. We CERAKOT'n today! The stuff finally arrived.

Woo hoo. Time to go freebase some paint fumes!

C.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Hi Keith,
Using my Starrett indicators and Kiff range rods we dial until at least one indicator runs dead nuts no movement and nothing over 1/2 a tenth on the other. Then we pull the rod and run the machine awhile. Then we recheck. Nothing is cut until the setup proves repeatable. Sure this takes a lot of time but it's not like we are buried in work anyway so we can take what it takes. I will tell you it can take hours to get one dialed in this close. We are getting faster. We did two brakes yesterday while the customers watched. They were in a hurry for a hunt this morning. After threading and timing the range rod goes back in and the setup gets tuned up but usually it still is running no more than .0001". After recheck we bore the inside of the brake to .020" over bullet diameter. Then a clean up cut down the outside. We are very proud of level of precision we turn out.

One moved yesterday as we skidded the barrel in the jaws while tightening the brake. That one after skidding ran out about .0003”. We change our technique right on the spot and we now torque on the brakes with the lathe in neutral and use a Surgeon action wrench with a breaker bar to hold the barrel from turning.

While writing this Chad posted. All I can say is I'm glad he is there and not here or I would be doing something else like turning brake rotors and sharpening lawn mower blades.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
we dial until at least one indicator runs dead nuts no movement and nothing over 1/2 a tenth on the other. Then we pull the rod and run the machine awhile. <span style="font-weight: bold">Then we recheck</span>. Nothing is cut until the setup proves repeatable. Sure this takes a lot of time but <span style="text-decoration: underline">it's not like we are buried in work anyway so we can take what it takes</span>. I will tell you it can take hours to get one dialed in this close. We are getting faster. We did two brakes yesterday while the customers watched. <span style="font-weight: bold">After threading and timing the range rod goes back in and the setup gets tuned up but usually it still is running no more than .0001".</span> After recheck we bore the inside of the brake to .020" over bullet diameter. Then a clean up cut down the outside. We are very proud of level of precision we turn out.

<span style="font-style: italic">One moved yesterday as we skidded the barrel in the jaws while tightening the brake. That one after skidding ran out about .0003”. </span>
</div></div>

HiredGun, good to hear someone else re-checks indication, and finds it necessary sometimes. I was not saying our work gets pushed out .001", or even close to that. Only a couple .0001"(couple 1/10ths of a <span style="font-weight: bold">thousandth</span> for those who dont realize)

I made my post, cause Ive never heard anyone ever mention it.
But plenty of .0001" and .0002" bragging, on lathes whos spindles probably aren't that accurate once pressure is applied and high RPMs introduced.



<span style="text-decoration: underline">We have the same mind set as the above underlined comment.</span>


<span style="font-style: italic">If tightening a brake on can move it out, cutting pressure from the tools sure as hell can</span>.




I bet most people walk up to a cold lathe, put it in neutral, indicate their barrel in, and start cutting until finished.
Is that ok and will it produce a half MOA rifle?, ya I believe so. But that same guy shouldn't brag about how his shit is running .0001" dead nuts the entire time he's cutting on it.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

jeeze, i'm gonna have to tell my smith to up his price from 75.00

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">I bet most people walk up to a cold lathe, put it in neutral, indicate their barrel in, and start cutting until finished.</span>Is that ok and will it produce a half MOA rifle?, ya I believe so. But that same guy shouldn't brag about how his shit is running .0001" dead nuts the entire time he's cutting on it.
</div></div>

i doubt it.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bet most people walk up to a cold lathe, put it in neutral, indicate their barrel in, and start cutting until finished.Is that ok and will it produce a half MOA rifle?, ya I believe so. But that same guy shouldn't brag about how his shit is running .0001" dead nuts the entire time he's cutting on it.</div></div>

I can say no simply because it'll void the warranty of the machine and it'll _uck chit up.

1/2 hour warm up on my lathe. No iffs/butts.

C.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cost of barrel threading


I have spoke about this at length with more than a few fellow builders and I am floored by the guys that will admit to me on the phone that holding .0001" or less is pure BS. They will type it but never do it. One has threads on a couple boards pointing out how absurd trying to hold less than .0001” really is. Another is a really well known here commercial sales/board supporter with a huge presence and he says he owns one .0005' resolution indicator but it is only for show. He said he only uses his .001" indicator and starts cutting once it gets to <span style="color: #FF0000">.003"</span> or so off the <span style="font-style: italic">outside</span> of the barrel. He has been doing it for years and he says his stuff shoots. He reasoning is 99.9 percent of his customers either shoot factory ammo or can't load ammo straight enough to take advantage of a straight chamber or perfectly square crown. One of his customers recently was flashing some group pictures showing about 1/2 groups with a few fliers saying that his rifles shoot better than he does and was thrilled. I would have been puking.

I had another old timer from this board that is well respected tell me he uses taps and dies for all his threading when he can. He taps actions and uses dies for threading muzzles.

Another world famous smith not on this board but has put out some very well respected training videos ends every sentence when doing his setup with, "plenty good enough for gunsmithing," while his dials are still whirling around 3/4 of his dials. At the end of the video he shoots the rifle and it shoots 1/2 MOA.

I probably am beating myself up in the pursuit of accuracy but my stuff consistently shoots way under 1/2 MOA. I feel it helps anytime I can control what I can control and make it the very best I can within my limitations. Maybe when we get world famous and have the long pedigree of accomplishments we too will slack off and let the dials wonder around a little more. uhh......... Not while I'm on watch!

Shawn

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Chad,
Back in the day when you turned your own dials (manual machines)did you still run your lathe for a full half hour before dialing in and working on them?

Shawn

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

The first/only manual lathe I ever did gunwork on was a JET lathe that should have been dumped into a lake about 10 years before I got a hold of it.

To answer your question directly, no I did not.

Really it didn't matter much because I've never used a tailstock to drive a reamer. It's always been done with the tool post. Just made more sense to me and eliminated all the drama of alignment issues. With a post I can control all 3 axis's. Can't do but 2 with a tail stock.

It wasn't until I got heavy into the CNC stuff and began programming/operating/owning them did I really begin to take this stuff seriously.

But think about it. Is a cold machine turning a thread a bad thing? No, you bump your compound a squeak and continue to march till the thread has the right PD.

In a CNC you can essentially do the same but you'll be chasing the part with wear offsets for the first ten/fifteen minutes till it starts to settle down.

Now lets look at reaming. My setup uses a "semi rigid" reamer holder. The only thing floating in my machine is the way oil in the coolant sump.

If my spindle picks up .0017" from cold to operating temp it is in my best (customer's) best interest for us to ensure the machine is thawed out. Otherwise runout can become more of a concern.

If I sound like I'm preaching or soap boxing I don't mean to. We have a system that works and works well. Some of it was by accidental discovery, some was by experience over many years of farting around with this stuff.

What I grit my teeth at is blanket statements generated with zero or very little practical experience. Cavalier approaches often create problems down the road. In this case it may be some germ at home who wants to take a stab at doing this kind of work. Setting a person up with good fundamentals is always step one when learning any new skill. Conjecture has no business in a classroom.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if your work is moving when you cut the tenon, i'd certainly be asking myself why. 'cause it sure shouldn't be. </div></div>

+1 </div></div>


How can you stand behind that statement when talking 1/10ths of a thousandth?

Tool pressure, temp changes in the part AND machine, high RPMs, etc.... You're saying none of that can push a part out from .0001" , yet you warm up your equipment for 30 minutes?

That sounds contradictory sir.

Remember we aren't using collets with however much impressive clamping force you said yours has. We're using manual lathes and double spider type set ups. Most of the contact points for us, touching the barrel, are brass/copper. Brass/copper compresses as pressure is applied.

You really think his parts are still indicated in as perfectly as they were before tool met steel, after the job is finished if he isnt re-checking and re-indicating between operations like we've found necessary?


Your collet may be able to apply XXX amount of clamping force due to its near 360 degree contact, but we cant do that with spiders and 4-jaws with soft brass/copper pivot points.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first/only manual lathe I ever did gunwork on was a JET lathe that should have been dumped into a lake about 10 years before I got a hold of it. </div></div>
How long did you use that manual lathe before going to CNC to build rifles?

 

[Jim See]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Well thanks guys you got me to read this whole thread.

This pissing match started over someone wanting threads on a rimfire plinker??

If you don't know better you should.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But I know for a fact there is work being done on light ass little lathes that are not capable of holding work in the .0001" range during machining operations. Yet people brag about it. </div></div>


so is a hardinge weighing about 1k lbs less than your new lathe one of those "light ass little lathes"?

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Keith,


1st, have you ever seen a C-16 collet chuck? Have you ever been around a cnc lathe with a hydraulic drawbar?

How much does your lathe weigh? How thick is the slab of the floor it sits on? Is the spindle dynamically balanced to 6k rpm?

Mine is.

Doosan Mecatec 280N2 with a Fanuc control.

Look up the machine specs yourself.

If you take a moment and look at anything done with a technical mind you'll quickly discover that the folks who excell at it have a well laid out routine/procedure.

Drs.
Pilots
Competitive shooters
Scientists
Etc. . .

Why is that?

Because being consistent promotes a predictable end result.

There's no doubt in my mind that a dilligent machinist/plumber can fit a barrel on a manual just as well as a high end cnc can. Too many rifles built on them to argue.

However can they fit a tennon in less than five minutes? Can they do 10+ a day and hold the consistency all the way through?

That's a tall order.

There's a reason these machines cost what they do. Once you learn how to finess its very possible to hold a .0001" tolerance on a part. Its done every day in other trades/types of manufacturing.

The key is understanding what's going on and the only thing that gets you there is long hours at the machine and hundreds of barrels.

Ill offer this: come see for yourself. SD is a haul and a half from AZ. If your ever in the area come see what it'll do.

Garrett and I often joke/wish we could deliver guns unassembled to clients so that they can really identify with what they are paying for. We can all sit and boast about how great our stuff is. How many smiths have enough transperency/confidense in the work they do to encourage a cst. to take one of their guns apart once delivered?

How many highend guys in this trade use a stack of washers to set a floor metal flush with a stock?

Welded recoil lug because they won't take the time to drill a hole.

Chambers headspaced with a fired case.


There's lots of good points/comments made in this thread questioning certain things. However summarizing that its all smoke/mirrors isn't realistic either.

I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. There's a reason I opted to invest in the equipment I have. I feel its a better way. 3 years in the middle east as a security contractor paid for this. Id like to think that demonstrates a commitment.

In summary: do the best you can with the tools/skills you have. There is always someone ou there better/faster than I am. Once at the top the only place left to go is down. With that in mind I personally hope I never get there. Its far more rewarding to me to keep climbing.

Enjoy your Sunday germs and remember what happened on this day 10 years ago.

C.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

How can you stand behind that statement when talking 1/10ths of a thousandth?

Tool pressure, temp changes in the part AND machine, high RPMs, etc.... You're saying none of that can push a part out from .0001" , yet you warm up your equipment for 30 minutes?

That sounds contradictory sir.

Remember we aren't using collets with however much impressive clamping force you said yours has. We're using manual lathes and double spider type set ups. Most of the contact points for us, touching the barrel, are brass/copper. Brass/copper compresses as pressure is applied.

You really think his parts are still indicated in as perfectly as they were before tool met steel, after the job is finished if he isnt re-checking and re-indicating between operations like we've found necessary?


Your collet may be able to apply XXX amount of clamping force due to its near 360 degree contact, but we cant do that with spiders and 4-jaws with soft brass/copper pivot points. </div></div>


do you think that <span style="font-style: italic">maybe</span> you are taking too aggressive a cut if the part is moving in your work holing set-up, what ever that may be? i am fully aware of the limitations of my work holding and i make cuts accordingly. heat caused by cutting pressure shouldn't change the location of the bore. your part slipping certainly will.

out of curiosity, how are you dialing in the bore? directly? off range rod? off a pin gauge?

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Ever consider the spider setup might/maaybbeee could be the contributing. Factor?

Lemme guess, brass tipped screws too right?

Watch 100+ You Tube vids of machinists making parts. How many brass tipped screws/vice jaws do you see?

Machinist 101: work holding. Maximum surface contact with your part with enough clampng pressure to hold it without distorting it.

C.

 

[BlackOps Tech]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Keith,
Give this little test a try....

Indicate your barrel the way you normally do. Note the end result....

Do not turn on the lathe.

Remove the range rod, re-insert it and check your findings. You'll find that what you see won't be the same as it was prior to removing the range rod.

Alarmingly, range rods are not repeatable. There's no way to engage the rod in the bore the same way each time, especially when you're looking at it with sensitive indicators (you can see this even if the indicators aren't made by Brown and Sharp).

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with your work-holding. I agree that work-holding and clamping force are highly important, but all the condescending jargon about "my lathe can beat up your lathe" and "my lathe weighs XX thousand pounds" has little to nothing to do with what you're seeing on your indicators.

I agree that things will change a bit as the machine warms up and obviously, the heavier and more rigid a machine is, the better, but does this really mean that you have work-holding issues? Not likely, as there are a number of other contributing factors to what you're seeing, especially the range rod.

It's true that you shouldn't be chewing off large amounts of material with each pass (when using spiders), but I won't just assume that you don't already know that.

It appears to me and others here that the condescending "conjecture" in this thread is a turkey strut that makes you out to be a peon, when that's simply not the case. In all actuality, this "conjecture" offers greater service to dis-crediting the source, so if I were in your position, I wouldn't sweat it at all. There are those of us that know exactly what we're reading and exactly what we're looking at.

Generally, there are those that tend to forget where they came from. They also tend to forget that education always has a price tag and for a certain member posting in this thread, that price tag was a 30% barrel scrap rate. This member wasn't burdened with this cost, but his previous employer was.

Although I recognize that I've had a few pointed things to say to you in the past, I certainly don't mind saying that I've noted your continued growth in your chosen craft. Don't change what you're doing just because someone on a forum says so or tries to glamour you into thinking that how they do it or what's in their shop is superior to all else.

Keep up the good work.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

i think mike knows something about range rods that i've personally found.


now i haven't found (nor will i claim to have) the perfect method to dial in a bore yet but i am certainly looking. i do like the idea of the gordy gridders (sp?) method. i haven't tried it yet but i will shortly. i do like the idea of hanging a weight off of the rod to eliminate any tolerance stacking because of the clearance between the rod and the bushing and the bushing and the bore.

i am always welcome to new ideas but as of now, i can find a fault with any of the most commonly used methods. if someone has something other that what follows, please speak up.

range rod: there is clearance between the rod and the bushing and the bushing and the bore. the rod is also flexible. the end of the bore better be dead nuts perpendicular or the rod will touch one side before the other, throwing off your reading.

tight fitting gauge pin: you are only going to get a reading in one place or in two places very close together for very limited resolution. there is still clearance between the pin and the bore, there has to be.

directly on the bore: pretty much the same as the gauge pin. you are only getting runout near zero in one spot but at least you are getting a direct reading with no clearance between the gauge and bore. if you are using this method on other than a 4 groove barrel, you have way more patience than i do.

dual spider chucks: you run the risk of flexing the barrel during setup. if that flex is in the chamber area, you may end up with some obvious issues. the high clamping pressure in a small area can certainly distort the bore. at the same time, too little clamping pressure can allow the barrel to slip or require you to use very light doc's.

set-tru type collet or multi jaw chuck: this allows for a rigid setup but at the same time only allows you to dial in the bore at one point. if that one point is the throat, it's probably pretty damn close two-ish inches back at the breech but i doubt if it's dead nuts.




i'm sure i sound like a dick sometimes when i question people here but i like to think things though. don't feel bad as i question everyone whether you've been doing it two weeks or twenty years. i don't speak something as gospel unless i can back it up with first hand knowledge. if i have an idea here that i can't back up with first hand knowledge, i am sure i can back it up with some pretty hard evidence. opinions of mine, well, they are just that, my opinions. i will call someone out that speaks something as gospel when they obviously have no experience with what they are talking about. there are very few people that i will take "because" as an answer why to do something.


now, that perfect method of dialing in a bore AND holding your work? does it exist?

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

We make .010" deep passes cutting any tenon. Removing 020" diameter.
A light cut, at 500rpm with a slow feed rate. Finish is beautiful and the material barely warms up.


Mike I see what you mean about range rods, and re-inserting them then checking indication again. It can show change just from that alone when talking 1/10ths of a thou.



Im not going to comment on how we indicate in, because Im extremely confident in our methods and in my work, and I think no matter what I say 300sniper is going to combat it.
I will say that it's the grooves we indicate off of finally, not the lands with a RR. RR may be used for some things, and to get it close, but it's the grooves that are most consistent and they are what I indicate in to .0003" or less at muzzle before cutting steel.
Yes even with a 6 groove barrel.



We just went out to test fire the most recent rifle I built.
Results are posted in our thread and say enough. I bet we do things a little different than anyone here. Because of how we were taught, what Ive seen here, and what Ive seen in life. Id honestly be shocked if anyone here does things exactly the same, yet all our rifles shoot lights out... what does that say?(by "our" I mean mine, Mikes, Georges, Chads, etc.)

All the rifles Ive built so far shoot the same. And they seem to shoot every load we try the same. Im not lying when I say, its harder to get them not to shoot well, than to shoot well.


My discussion on this board will grow to be less and less, due to some of my above comments.
I never try to have a pissing contest, but to question others opinions and methods so that I can learn and do the best I can. I don't have it in my mind that the way we do anything is the best way. Id change in a heart beat if shown a good reason. So far, I see no reason to change anything.


I've just gotten started in this industry, and am off to a good start I think. I should have 25+ more years in this field before I feel like retiring. Cant even imagine how much I'll grow and learn in that time.

Pretty soon these debates are going to seem pretty damn silly.
They already do. I do it to try to learn. But it seems more and more that the people I often argue with, have nothing to teach.


I would jump at the opportunity to come learn under someone like you Mike. I wish I had the money to do it.

I still have a lot of questions about a lot of things.

 

[Mark Housel]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">All the rifles Ive built so far shoot the same.</span> And they seem to shoot every load we try the same. I'm not lying when I say, its harder to get them not to shoot well, than to shoot well.
</div></div>

Keith,

Do you include the rifles you built at school in this?
I hope so.

Mark

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Yep. They've all shot the same. And Im not talking one special load, but factory ammo and just about any given load it seems.
Either Im one lucky guy or I'm doing something right.

Brads too.



Hell even Sean is building half MOA rifles!

Dont let the word get out, but there may just be several ways to build a great, SUB-half MOA rifle.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

I wasn’t going to chime in but, Mike nailed it, dead center. I've performed this test in the past with the same results.

I've chambered rifles by first warming up the machine for 15 minutes and then by just running it enough to clean up the breech end of the barrel. Guess what, they all shoot at or better than my published accuracy guarantee. I'm now using a machine that has a published net weight of 1,700 #'s, this up from a machine that had a published gross shipping weight of 1,374 #'s

The lighter weight machine still built great rifles. Simply put, it doesn’t take much machine to build a tack driving rifle. Those that will have you believe differently are masters of self promotion and have mastered the art of deception by smoke and mirrors.

It's all fluff and BS.

For the record, I think 300sniper has a pretty good grasp on the topic of extremely accurate rifles and how to build them. Try listening to him more in the future, it will pay off in the long run.

Keith, at least your thinking and trying to get a tighter grasp on the concept. My hats off to you for that. Contrary to what you may or may not believe, barrels are dialed in anywhere from .0000" to .0002" everyday in this industry, that’s very common. Unfortunately, there are those that still machine and chamber between centers, indicate off the exterior of the blank, use die nuts for muzzle threads, taps for receiver threads and have the mind set of “that’s good enough for me” Those are the guys not to listen to.

Know this though, if your holding your work by a spider and or small brass / copper tips and start taking large roughing cuts, your work is apt to move costing you your setup. I take .020" to .030" max cuts during turning operations and a lot less when I get close to where I want to be. Threading starts off at .010" and ends up with just tool pressure (spring pass) on the last two or three pass's.

I'm always looking for that better mouse trap and is why I've changed my entire machining system from machine to tooling and a large part of my rifle finishing procedures, all of it. I’ve never been more pleased with the quality of my machining and or completed builds, ever. Actions and shared procedures of other builders here on Snipers Hide like Mike Bush have caused / forced me to step up my game, I urge you to do the same. If you never strive for perfection, you'll never achieve it.

As a parting token concerning the topic of spiders, small holding / clamping points, small cuts and their merits, here’s two names of builders that use such procedures;

Surgeon Rifles
Gradous Rifles

If it’s good enough for them..........it’s good enough for me

 

[300sniper]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not going to comment on how we indicate in, because Im extremely confident in our methods and in my work, and I think no matter what I say 300sniper is going to combat it.</div></div>

absolutely not. if you have a better way, i have no problem with acknowledging that. be advised though, i will look for a fault in it. i can then decide if the pros outweigh the cons and decide if it is a better method. that's how i operate.

i don't do anything simply because "that is the way to do it". every step i take i ask myself "why am i doing it this way?"

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

One last thing,

Id swear sometimes people post <span style="font-weight: bold">about</span> my posts before <span style="font-weight: bold">reading/understanding</span> my posts(and if the following post is about myself, it is a prime example of that).

At the very least, they make statements that try to sway readers to their side by stating what they do, as if its any different/better than what I do.

Mentioning my name, in the same sentence as "its good enough" or warning me about "too heavy of cuts" is just insulting.


The <span style="font-weight: bold">results</span> of my work is posted for all to see, and speaks for itself.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Guess if one has a narcassistic attitude it would always be 'the other guy' who was condescending and always wrong!!!!

You have had no issues telling me and the OP of a couple of threads I "was wrong" or "incorrect" in my suggestions for an internet fix. Spend the rest of the night trying to find where I was condescending or insulting in any post towards you when you recommended a solution/fix????? Yea, I know I am not a "real smith" like you and didn't just come from a vo-tech school but that doesn't necessarily mean I am full of shit or incorrect! I glassed my first rifle while you were probably livin in a nutsack yet! Find one post I have made that is untrue or blantantly false and misleading!!!!

Sometimes a bit of politeness and a comment like "if what member ****** recommended doesn't work try this"....... instead of saying "I think ****** is wrong/incorrect it is this!". Lower the testosterone level a bit and lose the frickin ego and you may be surprised at how others percieve or comprehend your recommendations and/or suggestions. Just because you got yer dilploma and daddy built you a new shop doesn't mean that strangers owe you respect, especially when you show little of it to your piers yourself. If you want respect from your piers and fellow gunsmiths than EARN IT, and that won't happen by argueing with them, insinuating your way is the best etc. Just because you were taught one way damn sure don't mean it is the ONLY WAY or THE BEST WAY!!!!!!

Alot of ways to end up with a skinned cat that don't mean it is gonna taste better or worse!!!! I refuse to argue on the net about anything! Have more than made that clear to you prior to this post. Last thing I am gonna say is you will learn alot more by being polite, listening and reading than you will with your yapper flappin and tryin to show you have a bigger dick cause you just got some learnin from a school. You might have had a great instructor but that don't mean he is right about everything and it is the only way!!!

Done with this shit and about done with these forums as you can see from my posting lately. Tired of the friggin ego's and the knowitalls!!!!

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Thanks for the 1/2hr of entertainment folks. Damn good read about the cost of barrel threading.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Maybe it was a read on a different "cost" of barrel threading.
The cost of what it takes to do it right.

Or maybe we do just argue a lot

At the end of the day I believe we're all on the same side and know that.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guess if one has a narcassistic attitude it would always be 'the other guy' who was condescending and always wrong!!!!

You have had no issues telling me and the OP of a couple of threads I "was wrong" or "incorrect" in my suggestions for an internet fix. Spend the rest of the night trying to find where I was condescending or insulting in any post towards you when you recommended a solution/fix????? Yea, I know I am not a "real smith" like you and didn't just come from a vo-tech school but that doesn't necessarily mean I am full of shit or incorrect! I glassed my first rifle while you were probably livin in a nutsack yet! Find one post I have made that is untrue or blantantly false and misleading!!!!

Sometimes a bit of politeness and a comment like "if what member ****** recommended doesn't work try this"....... instead of saying "I think ****** is wrong/incorrect it is this!". Lower the testosterone level a bit and lose the frickin ego and you may be surprised at how others percieve or comprehend your recommendations and/or suggestions. Just because you got yer dilploma and daddy built you a new shop doesn't mean that strangers owe you respect, especially when you show little of it to your piers yourself. If you want respect from your piers and fellow gunsmiths than EARN IT, and that won't happen by argueing with them, insinuating your way is the best etc. Just because you were taught one way damn sure don't mean it is the ONLY WAY or THE BEST WAY!!!!!!

Alot of ways to end up with a skinned cat that don't mean it is gonna taste better or worse!!!! I refuse to argue on the net about anything! Have more than made that clear to you prior to this post. Last thing I am gonna say is you will learn alot more by being polite, listening and reading than you will with your yapper flappin and tryin to show you have a bigger dick cause you just got some learnin from a school. You might have had a great instructor but that don't mean he is right about everything and it is the only way!!!

Done with this shit and about done with these forums as you can see from my posting lately. Tired of the friggin ego's and the knowitalls!!!!

Respectfully,
Dennis</div></div>

I'm really sorry I had to do that SD, don't take any offense to it as I was just trying to lighten the mood a little bit.

 

[LRI]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

 

[krisp]

Re: Cost of barrel threading

Chad,

I don't know why you have to put that picture of me up, but I'm very offended. JJ How's the rifles?

Kris