Rifle Scopes Mil/Mil
- Thread starter Pointman308
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Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
EventHorizon: My point is I dont think that it is easier. I think its the same, but cost more in some cases and in others its just a distraction from good dependable scopes.
EventHorizon: My point is I dont think that it is easier. I think its the same, but cost more in some cases and in others its just a distraction from good dependable scopes.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay it's my story time now....I make a shot a 700 then range a target at 300. I know from memory or my data card to dial to 4 moa on my scope rather than taking the time to subtract in my head. By the time you subtract mils in your head in the heat of battle I've alread dialed in and sent a round toward the new target. </div></div>
Extremely wrong, but comical story.
There are multiple parts to that theory that incorrect. One being that you can dial faster then I can hold.
I have no desire to further discuss the value of optic that has matching adjustments and reticle. It is clear that you dont think it is worthwhile. Fair enough, but I will point out that you raised the discussion in the first place. Also, most who have trained and operated behind a precision rifle would disagree with you.
Since you brought it up... Have you ever been in the heat of battle behind a SWS? I ask because I would find it hard to believe that you cant see the benefit if you indeed have.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay it's my story time now....I make a shot a 700 then range a target at 300. I know from memory or my data card to dial to 4 moa on my scope rather than taking the time to subtract in my head. By the time you subtract mils in your head in the heat of battle I've alread dialed in and sent a round toward the new target. </div></div>
Extremely wrong, but comical story.
There are multiple parts to that theory that incorrect. One being that you can dial faster then I can hold.
I have no desire to further discuss the value of optic that has matching adjustments and reticle. It is clear that you dont think it is worthwhile. Fair enough, but I will point out that you raised the discussion in the first place. Also, most who have trained and operated behind a precision rifle would disagree with you.
Since you brought it up... Have you ever been in the heat of battle behind a SWS? I ask because I would find it hard to believe that you cant see the benefit if you indeed have.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kind of off topic but the main hubbub i see in marketing is when a company says "sight in at 100 yds and this point is the exact holdover for 250 yds". it drives me nuts how do they know my dope? plus then somone who believes them takes the gun hunting and wonds a animal because they trusted the manufactor. </div></div>
this bugs the hell out of me too, i'm not a fan of the ballistic reticles unless i have a specific round picked out, or the reticle is in mils. </div></div>
well atleast im in good company.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kind of off topic but the main hubbub i see in marketing is when a company says "sight in at 100 yds and this point is the exact holdover for 250 yds". it drives me nuts how do they know my dope? plus then somone who believes them takes the gun hunting and wonds a animal because they trusted the manufactor. </div></div>
this bugs the hell out of me too, i'm not a fan of the ballistic reticles unless i have a specific round picked out, or the reticle is in mils. </div></div>
well atleast im in good company.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Casey,
I like you, and you know that.
So, I have to ask:
Knight, Frank, Lindy, 42769 (whom I don't know), Jay, and I have posted in response to the OPs Thread. Would you be willing to name the few exceptions in this crowd to whom you refer: The exceptions to those who know little about shooting at enemy humans, and more about making money and having fun while looking cool and overcoming excessive adverse emotional baggage, and whose experience is shorter than the Hide has been in existence?...
</div></div>
ill be the first to admit i know absolutly nothing about engaging human targets and hope to never learn what engaging human targets is like.
i shoot f-class and have alot of experiance in TARGET shooting not human shooting. ive never been in the military, but the farm i grew up on has a 750yd range on it and i grew up on that range (pre internet) so basically i learned long range shooting by doing it wrong and saying this isn't working. eventually i got it right and started being successfull. growing up i didn't even know anyone who had shot further than 400 yds so i didn't even have brains to pick.
do i have as much experiance as frank and alot of memebers of this site? HELL NO but i send more rounds down range than any civilian ive ever meat every year. i learned by doing it wrong, most learn by reading on the internet. reading is probably much cheaper and easier than my way
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Casey,
I like you, and you know that.
So, I have to ask:
Knight, Frank, Lindy, 42769 (whom I don't know), Jay, and I have posted in response to the OPs Thread. Would you be willing to name the few exceptions in this crowd to whom you refer: The exceptions to those who know little about shooting at enemy humans, and more about making money and having fun while looking cool and overcoming excessive adverse emotional baggage, and whose experience is shorter than the Hide has been in existence?...
ill be the first to admit i know absolutly nothing about engaging human targets and hope to never learn what engaging human targets is like.
i shoot f-class and have alot of experiance in TARGET shooting not human shooting. ive never been in the military, but the farm i grew up on has a 750yd range on it and i grew up on that range (pre internet) so basically i learned long range shooting by doing it wrong and saying this isn't working. eventually i got it right and started being successfull. growing up i didn't even know anyone who had shot further than 400 yds so i didn't even have brains to pick.
do i have as much experiance as frank and alot of memebers of this site? HELL NO but i send more rounds down range than any civilian ive ever meat every year. i learned by doing it wrong, most learn by reading on the internet. reading is probably much cheaper and easier than my way
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
You guys are wasting your time,
So he is gonna lift his head and dial down from 21MOA to 4 MOA faster than simply taking the reticle and holding 3.5 mils low on the target. <span style="font-style: italic">(Let me guess a Leupold with M1 Turrets too, where he never gets lost on revolutions because zero stops are a gimmick )</span> He is more effective taking his eyes off the target instead of following it in the scope moving the reticle down and engaging ?
Genius where do I sign ? I have wasted far too much money on single turn or high rev turrets, mils and zero stops.
You guys are wasting your time,
So he is gonna lift his head and dial down from 21MOA to 4 MOA faster than simply taking the reticle and holding 3.5 mils low on the target. <span style="font-style: italic">(Let me guess a Leupold with M1 Turrets too, where he never gets lost on revolutions because zero stops are a gimmick )</span> He is more effective taking his eyes off the target instead of following it in the scope moving the reticle down and engaging ?
Genius where do I sign ? I have wasted far too much money on single turn or high rev turrets, mils and zero stops.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Well your wrong, you cant. Simple subtraction is not mentally taxing for me.
Im sorry you have lost friends, many have, including myself. I dont see how that is relevant to the question.
I asked the question to gauge how you are forming your opinion, you are the one who brought up "in the heat of battle".
As far as your suggestion, you can keep it. I fail to see how when discussing a method of engagement during battle it is offensive to ask a persons experience level.
Well your wrong, you cant. Simple subtraction is not mentally taxing for me.
Im sorry you have lost friends, many have, including myself. I dont see how that is relevant to the question.
I asked the question to gauge how you are forming your opinion, you are the one who brought up "in the heat of battle".
As far as your suggestion, you can keep it. I fail to see how when discussing a method of engagement during battle it is offensive to ask a persons experience level.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have asked real solid questions and you feel insulted when I question something you have just went gaga over. Maybe because your trying to sell stuff, I DONT KNOW. But I didnt try to belittle you by suggestesting that you were some pogue trying to pose as a frickin sniper by asking if youve ever been behind an SWS while in the heat of battle. I was just using a legitamite example of how it could be hard to subtract numbers in your head in the heat of battle vs. using a method you have trained hours and months with at the range. Man if you cant see the marketing going into this you guys are insane or just too invested. I tried to keep from talking about being a real operator vs. someone who does it for recreation until other people brought it up. I didnt bring it up. You guys went for the poser jugular before you really even listened to what I had to say. I say to everyone on this site who will listen. Invest in yourself before you invest in someones product marketing. If there is a chance that you will use your rifle to save your life or the life of another depend on good training not marketing skeems that you can live without. </div></div>
Why don't you go ahead and send LL some proof to back up "hot words" you keep throwing out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have asked real solid questions and you feel insulted when I question something you have just went gaga over. Maybe because your trying to sell stuff, I DONT KNOW. But I didnt try to belittle you by suggestesting that you were some pogue trying to pose as a frickin sniper by asking if youve ever been behind an SWS while in the heat of battle. I was just using a legitamite example of how it could be hard to subtract numbers in your head in the heat of battle vs. using a method you have trained hours and months with at the range. Man if you cant see the marketing going into this you guys are insane or just too invested. I tried to keep from talking about being a real operator vs. someone who does it for recreation until other people brought it up. I didnt bring it up. You guys went for the poser jugular before you really even listened to what I had to say. I say to everyone on this site who will listen. Invest in yourself before you invest in someones product marketing. If there is a chance that you will use your rifle to save your life or the life of another depend on good training not marketing skeems that you can live without. </div></div>
Why don't you go ahead and send LL some proof to back up "hot words" you keep throwing out.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
how is making a product easier/ quicker to use, more robust, optically better, i fail to see how that is marketing?
how is making a product easier/ quicker to use, more robust, optically better, i fail to see how that is marketing?
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
You haven't done shit. You find that 15 or 20moa base yet for your Bushnell 3200 Elite?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
You haven't done shit. You find that 15 or 20moa base yet for your Bushnell 3200 Elite?
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Pointman308, stop talking before you dig yourself any deeper and do some more reading on this site. You might learn something. It is useless to argue you with you or perhaps to even hope you will follow the advice given so far because you are so uninformed at present.
I will throw one thing in to make your head spin. Consider this: If you use a decimal-based system, such as metric for your distance units, the math can be quite easy with a mil reticle because it is also decimal-based. This is math I can do in my head quite easily and accurately, e.g.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Target size is .5 meters. At one mil that equals 500 meters.[*]Target covers (subtends) .6 mils[*] Divide 50 by 6 (simplifies the math) = 8 1/3 or 8.33[*] Since I dropped a zero off the 500 and multipled the .6 mils by 10 I just multiply my result by 100 and get 833 meters[/list]Keep in mind that if the amount subtended is less than 1 mil, e.g. .6, the target is farther away. If more, e.g. 1.8, it is closer. It's an easy check on the results. And that's the long version. The short version mentally is like this:
Target: .67 mils; 1 mil distance: 670 meters; Subtended 1.2; 67/12 = ~ 5.6; Result:560 meters. (The actual is 558.33)
Point is: I, who had to repeat Algebra II in high school, did that in my head. And don't tell me the ballistics are going to make a difference between the estimate and the actual. What's hardest about ranging with a reticle is getting an accurate measurement. Next is knowing the target size. The math can be easy enough for an poet.
Pointman308, stop talking before you dig yourself any deeper and do some more reading on this site. You might learn something. It is useless to argue you with you or perhaps to even hope you will follow the advice given so far because you are so uninformed at present.
I will throw one thing in to make your head spin. Consider this: If you use a decimal-based system, such as metric for your distance units, the math can be quite easy with a mil reticle because it is also decimal-based. This is math I can do in my head quite easily and accurately, e.g.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Target size is .5 meters. At one mil that equals 500 meters.[*]Target covers (subtends) .6 mils[*] Divide 50 by 6 (simplifies the math) = 8 1/3 or 8.33[*] Since I dropped a zero off the 500 and multipled the .6 mils by 10 I just multiply my result by 100 and get 833 meters[/list]Keep in mind that if the amount subtended is less than 1 mil, e.g. .6, the target is farther away. If more, e.g. 1.8, it is closer. It's an easy check on the results. And that's the long version. The short version mentally is like this:
Target: .67 mils; 1 mil distance: 670 meters; Subtended 1.2; 67/12 = ~ 5.6; Result:560 meters. (The actual is 558.33)
Point is: I, who had to repeat Algebra II in high school, did that in my head. And don't tell me the ballistics are going to make a difference between the estimate and the actual. What's hardest about ranging with a reticle is getting an accurate measurement. Next is knowing the target size. The math can be easy enough for an poet.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
I just won a "Friend from Afar" trophy playing Medal of Honor, how's that for experience to back up my claims... they don't just give those away you have to make some serious shots.
Besides what have I tried to sell ? Not a thing, you're the only one in here mentioning brands and pushing a single product, but you knew that you're just here to stir the pot and really your style and being from Idaho looks a bit familiar to me like you might have been here before and banned...
The Hathcock tag is a nice touch, he actually signed my SS School Diploma when I earned it how about you ?
I just won a "Friend from Afar" trophy playing Medal of Honor, how's that for experience to back up my claims... they don't just give those away you have to make some serious shots.
Besides what have I tried to sell ? Not a thing, you're the only one in here mentioning brands and pushing a single product, but you knew that you're just here to stir the pot and really your style and being from Idaho looks a bit familiar to me like you might have been here before and banned...
The Hathcock tag is a nice touch, he actually signed my SS School Diploma when I earned it how about you ?
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
You need to read more and post less... No offense. I will attempt to help you one more time.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1938091#Post1938091
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378812#Post378812
That is a good place to start.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
You need to read more and post less... No offense. I will attempt to help you one more time.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1938091#Post1938091
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378812#Post378812
That is a good place to start.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Where is Loopy? Playing catch up as we speak. They are doing a fine job of it as well and its bringing more of us back to them.
Fact remains they sat on their asses for the better part of a decade while progress moved forward.
Where are they today? Well they are offering Mil/Mil optics for the same price as the MOA/Mil offerings.
Given the choice without added cost I'm going with Mil/Mil as I find it easier to use.
I dont see how this is a marketing gimick when there is no additional charge which is the case for just about every quality optic available.
Where is Loopy? Playing catch up as we speak. They are doing a fine job of it as well and its bringing more of us back to them.
Fact remains they sat on their asses for the better part of a decade while progress moved forward.
Where are they today? Well they are offering Mil/Mil optics for the same price as the MOA/Mil offerings.
Given the choice without added cost I'm going with Mil/Mil as I find it easier to use.
I dont see how this is a marketing gimick when there is no additional charge which is the case for just about every quality optic available.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
This discussion makes no sense. What is easier? Working on a car that has only metric bolts, or working on a car that has both metric and full retard standard? If you answer that they are just as easy as each other, you're insane. Fractions are stupid. Really really stupid. The Devil invented fractions.
This discussion makes no sense. What is easier? Working on a car that has only metric bolts, or working on a car that has both metric and full retard standard? If you answer that they are just as easy as each other, you're insane. Fractions are stupid. Really really stupid. The Devil invented fractions.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
I am sorry guys this guy is a real bad representation of the shooters we have here in Idaho. I assure you that we are not all that retarded.
Also I know everyone likes to bash on Leupold, but half of making a product is selling it. The business end of Leupold is where it really shines as they continue to grow and get Military contracts. They are noticing a flattened global market and are adapting to this concept a little slower than everyone else.
I am sorry guys this guy is a real bad representation of the shooters we have here in Idaho. I assure you that we are not all that retarded.
Also I know everyone likes to bash on Leupold, but half of making a product is selling it. The business end of Leupold is where it really shines as they continue to grow and get Military contracts. They are noticing a flattened global market and are adapting to this concept a little slower than everyone else.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
I'll be the first to admit, I like the new Leupolds,
I like the 34mm M5, which is Mil / Mil, I really like the 1-8X and I like the Hamr ... I find the 34mm offerings to be well above the 30mm versions of similar scopes.
Playing catch has been admitted, where they are moving forward from here is what tells the tale. I also understand there will be even more new Tactical Models offered at SHOT... so they got the ball rolling, we can talk about their GAP in years, or we can move ahead. No complaints from me moving forward.
I'll be the first to admit, I like the new Leupolds,
I like the 34mm M5, which is Mil / Mil, I really like the 1-8X and I like the Hamr ... I find the 34mm offerings to be well above the 30mm versions of similar scopes.
Playing catch has been admitted, where they are moving forward from here is what tells the tale. I also understand there will be even more new Tactical Models offered at SHOT... so they got the ball rolling, we can talk about their GAP in years, or we can move ahead. No complaints from me moving forward.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
LL,
In all of your free time
are you going to get a video review of the 34mm M5 anytime soon?
LL,
In all of your free time
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL,
In all of your free time
are you going to get a video review of the 34mm M5 anytime soon?</div></div>
I need to maybe once I get back from Vegas, I have a bunch of footage I just have to wrap it up... I have been doing 15 things that the video has taken a back seat.
Hopefully between now and XMAS I can do it... Needless to say, its worth it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL,
In all of your free time
I need to maybe once I get back from Vegas, I have a bunch of footage I just have to wrap it up... I have been doing 15 things that the video has taken a back seat.
Hopefully between now and XMAS I can do it... Needless to say, its worth it.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
I have owned a couple Leupolds in the past, and they were the 8.5-25 ER/T with M1 knobs and the newer 4.5-14 with the M5 knobs. I have ONLY one good thing to say about them, and that is the glass on both of them were superb for whatever reason, and that's probably the last thing I wanted to be superb. Dialing from 1000 yards and back to a 100 yard zero they were ALWAYS at least two inches off in some random direction. Not to mention the excess of dialing, in which I did get lost in my revolutions once with the M1 knobs which frustrated the hell out of me. I got fed up with them never returning to zero, so I bought a Vortex PST. That $700 scope worked twice as good as my $1,400, and $1,700 Leupold ever did. As for Leupold, I would personally put them way low in the performance aspect, and the "cheaper" PST in a higher category. You can keep your Leupolds.
Added: I have no experience with the new locking turrets, but I do have a friend who competed in this past years International Sniper Competition and placed 6th who seemed to really like them a lot (if that adds any credibility to his opinion hah).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive done my job here. Where are the Leupolds? </div></div>
I have owned a couple Leupolds in the past, and they were the 8.5-25 ER/T with M1 knobs and the newer 4.5-14 with the M5 knobs. I have ONLY one good thing to say about them, and that is the glass on both of them were superb for whatever reason, and that's probably the last thing I wanted to be superb. Dialing from 1000 yards and back to a 100 yard zero they were ALWAYS at least two inches off in some random direction. Not to mention the excess of dialing, in which I did get lost in my revolutions once with the M1 knobs which frustrated the hell out of me. I got fed up with them never returning to zero, so I bought a Vortex PST. That $700 scope worked twice as good as my $1,400, and $1,700 Leupold ever did. As for Leupold, I would personally put them way low in the performance aspect, and the "cheaper" PST in a higher category. You can keep your Leupolds.
Added: I have no experience with the new locking turrets, but I do have a friend who competed in this past years International Sniper Competition and placed 6th who seemed to really like them a lot (if that adds any credibility to his opinion hah).
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay Im following you, but wont you dial with a mil/mil as well.</div></div>
We're wasting our time here... </div></div>
Lmao. This just became a classic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay Im following you, but wont you dial with a mil/mil as well.</div></div>
We're wasting our time here... </div></div>
Lmao. This just became a classic.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Easy,
you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
But that isn't the question, or the statement made, it's about 1 number that does both, works with your adjustments or your reticle, one stream line number that only need go to 12.... (for a 308)
Ranging is secondary at best as most have lasers... but for speed and ease, knowing your DOPE in Mils streamlines the process regardless if you hold or dial. On overwatch and see a target peek out, hold the reticle the appropriate adjustment and fire, or that same number can be dialed. No conversation no looking down, or away, just memorize it... it's only 10 numbers and nothing bigger than 12.
Easy,
you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
But that isn't the question, or the statement made, it's about 1 number that does both, works with your adjustments or your reticle, one stream line number that only need go to 12.... (for a 308)
Ranging is secondary at best as most have lasers... but for speed and ease, knowing your DOPE in Mils streamlines the process regardless if you hold or dial. On overwatch and see a target peek out, hold the reticle the appropriate adjustment and fire, or that same number can be dialed. No conversation no looking down, or away, just memorize it... it's only 10 numbers and nothing bigger than 12.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
This by far has been to the most coherent repsonse to what has been talked about, but when your stressed to make a shot at something I find it easier to do something you have practiced rather than doing math in your head however simple it might be. Just an opinion
This by far has been to the most coherent repsonse to what has been talked about, but when your stressed to make a shot at something I find it easier to do something you have practiced rather than doing math in your head however simple it might be. Just an opinion
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take my shooting seriously and am considering doing it proffessionally again. </div></div>
Let us know when the mall calls back. Downt foreget your spelchecker awn tha jobb aplicashun.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take my shooting seriously and am considering doing it proffessionally again. </div></div>
Let us know when the mall calls back. Downt foreget your spelchecker awn tha jobb aplicashun.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
LOL.....easy there. What was the point of your little math lesson anyway and will you put in a good word for me at the mall?
LOL.....easy there. What was the point of your little math lesson anyway and will you put in a good word for me at the mall?
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be the first to admit, I like the new Leupolds... I really like the 1-8X </div></div>You do? For what purpose? The one it is being currently used for, or something else more suited to the reticle itself?
And Casey, for the record, have a look at the horse you are backing in this Thread:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried to keep from talking about being a real operator vs. someone who does it for recreation until other people brought it up. I didnt bring it up. You guys went for the poser jugular before you really even listened to what I had to say.</div></div>Spoken like a 'real operator'.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never been a miltary sniper however I have served on some paramilitary teams and have lost friends in the line of duty. I take my shooting seriously and am considering doing it proffessionally again.</div></div>Ahhh: the 'paramilitary'. Now I get it.
Regardless of his experience, it looks like he's here to talk and not to listen, which wouldn't be a bad thing if his information was factually correct.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll be the first to admit, I like the new Leupolds... I really like the 1-8X </div></div>You do? For what purpose? The one it is being currently used for, or something else more suited to the reticle itself?
And Casey, for the record, have a look at the horse you are backing in this Thread:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried to keep from talking about being a real operator vs. someone who does it for recreation until other people brought it up. I didnt bring it up. You guys went for the poser jugular before you really even listened to what I had to say.</div></div>Spoken like a 'real operator'.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never been a miltary sniper however I have served on some paramilitary teams and have lost friends in the line of duty. I take my shooting seriously and am considering doing it proffessionally again.</div></div>Ahhh: the 'paramilitary'. Now I get it.
Regardless of his experience, it looks like he's here to talk and not to listen, which wouldn't be a bad thing if his information was factually correct.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Graham
I have the 16" Knights EMC combined with the 1-8x you have a very fast effective platform. Having shot it to 500m on 8x12 targets to 500m I think it bridges the urban gap well for both movement and effectiveness.
Plus is is a very robust optic.
I have the TMR but also the Horus model is here not that I Plan on keeping that one. Plus can Delta be wrong? It's the exact platform they use.
Graham
I have the 16" Knights EMC combined with the 1-8x you have a very fast effective platform. Having shot it to 500m on 8x12 targets to 500m I think it bridges the urban gap well for both movement and effectiveness.
Plus is is a very robust optic.
I have the TMR but also the Horus model is here not that I Plan on keeping that one. Plus can Delta be wrong? It's the exact platform they use.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your a soldier or a marine youll proably end up dead if the guy your shooting at has half a brain under the rag he's wearing. In my humble but proffessional opinion the best invention to modern tactical scopes is using hash marks instead of dots on milradian reticles. </div></div>
I don't know what "proffessional" opinion it is you have, but this is SNIPER'S HIDE- We don't usually make a habit of shooting from locations in which we are clearly and obviously visible. Usually just the opposite actually. So in reality, if we miss a shot- no we are not "proably" going to end up dead- regardless what fraction of a brain the guy has under his "rag" (turbans btw, are much more common in india than iraq or afghanistan so in reality it's not that likely the target will be wearing one. Thanks for being informed though!).
Go crawl back under the rock you came out from under. There are ACTUAL professional's on here and attacking the wide spread equipment preferences, methodology and training of our profession isn't giving you much credibility.
Oh, and use your spell check, then have your mom look it over for punctuation and grammar.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your a soldier or a marine youll proably end up dead if the guy your shooting at has half a brain under the rag he's wearing. In my humble but proffessional opinion the best invention to modern tactical scopes is using hash marks instead of dots on milradian reticles. </div></div>
I don't know what "proffessional" opinion it is you have, but this is SNIPER'S HIDE- We don't usually make a habit of shooting from locations in which we are clearly and obviously visible. Usually just the opposite actually. So in reality, if we miss a shot- no we are not "proably" going to end up dead- regardless what fraction of a brain the guy has under his "rag" (turbans btw, are much more common in india than iraq or afghanistan so in reality it's not that likely the target will be wearing one. Thanks for being informed though!).
Go crawl back under the rock you came out from under. There are ACTUAL professional's on here and attacking the wide spread equipment preferences, methodology and training of our profession isn't giving you much credibility.
Oh, and use your spell check, then have your mom look it over for punctuation and grammar.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont think simplfying something is hub bub, but shouldnt you know your holdovers based off of of a 100 zero in the first place. Maybe not on exteme distance, but in that case why not just dial in. I cant justify bashing a very reputable scope company that sells very dependable scopes because they wouldnt fall for every marketing skeem. Im just playing devils advocated here I realize, but when you have been trained one tried and true way I need to ask the questions. </div></div>
I am really curious what your "profession" is now. You are certainly not a military sniper- standard practice for mil sniper's is use a 300 or 500m zero and use hold-over/under for rapid engagement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont think simplfying something is hub bub, but shouldnt you know your holdovers based off of of a 100 zero in the first place. Maybe not on exteme distance, but in that case why not just dial in. I cant justify bashing a very reputable scope company that sells very dependable scopes because they wouldnt fall for every marketing skeem. Im just playing devils advocated here I realize, but when you have been trained one tried and true way I need to ask the questions. </div></div>
I am really curious what your "profession" is now. You are certainly not a military sniper- standard practice for mil sniper's is use a 300 or 500m zero and use hold-over/under for rapid engagement.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knight, my point is dont you have to subtract in your head before you can make a "precision" shot with your hold over. By the time you have done that, I have alread dialed to 300 and engaged the target. Its just my opinion and I think it is sound. And I have lost good friends in battle and I wont disprect you by asking the same question you asked me. I highly suggest you never asked that question to someone in person. </div></div>
Fuck it, I'll call it. Send Frank your graduation certificate or whichever school student evaluation form showing meeting or exceeding the standards and passing that you have from your sniper school.
Your thought process, ideas, the words you choose to use, your vagueness with specific experiences and equipment to back up your ideas that run 100% counter to commonly held US Sniper TTP's- all smells foul.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Knight, my point is dont you have to subtract in your head before you can make a "precision" shot with your hold over. By the time you have done that, I have alread dialed to 300 and engaged the target. Its just my opinion and I think it is sound. And I have lost good friends in battle and I wont disprect you by asking the same question you asked me. I highly suggest you never asked that question to someone in person. </div></div>
Fuck it, I'll call it. Send Frank your graduation certificate or whichever school student evaluation form showing meeting or exceeding the standards and passing that you have from your sniper school.
Your thought process, ideas, the words you choose to use, your vagueness with specific experiences and equipment to back up your ideas that run 100% counter to commonly held US Sniper TTP's- all smells foul.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plus can Delta be wrong?</div></div>LOL! I'm not going to touch that one except to joke that the words Eagle Claw come to mind.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plus can Delta be wrong?</div></div>LOL! I'm not going to touch that one except to joke that the words Eagle Claw come to mind.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Edited by Pointman308"...and now he's changed his screen name to HighDesertGhost? How 'bout GoneWithTheWind? </div></div>He can run, but one doesn't learn by running (with the exception of those who physically run, like marathons and stuff
). It's too bad, because he's getting some very good info in the corrections to his posts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Edited by Pointman308"...and now he's changed his screen name to HighDesertGhost? How 'bout GoneWithTheWind? </div></div>He can run, but one doesn't learn by running (with the exception of those who physically run, like marathons and stuff
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation. </div></div>
That was Lowlight's quote. I like the idea of using the reticle with the clicks to aid milling because if the time is there it takes out a lot of guess work (i've got a regular mil-dot without any hash marks or fine ranging subtensions at the end of the posts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation. </div></div>
That was Lowlight's quote. I like the idea of using the reticle with the clicks to aid milling because if the time is there it takes out a lot of guess work (i've got a regular mil-dot without any hash marks or fine ranging subtensions at the end of the posts.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation. </div></div>
That was Lowlight's quote. I like the idea of using the reticle with the clicks to aid milling because if the time is there it takes out a lot of guess work (i've got a regular mil-dot without any hash marks or fine ranging subtensions at the end of the posts. </div></div>
Oh.
Well, my apologies for attributing it to Pointman308. I still would find it hard to do in the field. Perhaps something to practice. I've found that the main thing is just to get the scope stable enough to even measure anything, regardless of technique.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you can place the reticle on one side of a target, dial the clicks until it moves to the other side of the target, there you have the information as to how many .1 mils the target is...
</div></div>
Now why would I do that if my reticle has subtensions across it? Take this target for example:
It's for things like this that you are getting such a hard time because you clearly don't understand the basics and are spouting misinformation. </div></div>
That was Lowlight's quote. I like the idea of using the reticle with the clicks to aid milling because if the time is there it takes out a lot of guess work (i've got a regular mil-dot without any hash marks or fine ranging subtensions at the end of the posts. </div></div>
Oh.
Well, my apologies for attributing it to Pointman308. I still would find it hard to do in the field. Perhaps something to practice. I've found that the main thing is just to get the scope stable enough to even measure anything, regardless of technique.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Im not running from anything. I just got tired of the frickin posts in my email. I made a mistake with my original post and I am regretting it and rightully so. I made an assumption based on my expierences as a CRT member and did not take into account that Military Snipers work off of 300 to 500 yard zeros. In that case mil/mil scopes make a lot of sense. Cops dont often shoot past 200 yards and most commonly zero their rifles at 100 just like your average hunter. I am not a military sniper and have never claimed to be one, but I served as a CRT Member(SWAT). I shoot mainly for fun now and I do some long distance stuff. I love this sport and love those who have served their Country at home and across seas. I would love to start having more intelligent conversations on this forum now. Thank You
Im not running from anything. I just got tired of the frickin posts in my email. I made a mistake with my original post and I am regretting it and rightully so. I made an assumption based on my expierences as a CRT member and did not take into account that Military Snipers work off of 300 to 500 yard zeros. In that case mil/mil scopes make a lot of sense. Cops dont often shoot past 200 yards and most commonly zero their rifles at 100 just like your average hunter. I am not a military sniper and have never claimed to be one, but I served as a CRT Member(SWAT). I shoot mainly for fun now and I do some long distance stuff. I love this sport and love those who have served their Country at home and across seas. I would love to start having more intelligent conversations on this forum now. Thank You
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
I made a mistake too, attributing a quote to you because that's the way it looked. I had a hard time reading through this entire thread because there have been some opiniated, incorrect statements made. But let's move on.
I've never shot with military snipers, just with some LEO officers who were not snipers. So I don't know for sure what zero is most common. My impression has been that most are using a 100-yard zero. But aside from that, where one's zero is set has nothing to do with using a mil reticle to range or with the trend to move towards matching reticle & turrets.
The latter is simply a way to relate turret adjustments to what you see in the reticle without having to do an extra conversion.
I made a mistake too, attributing a quote to you because that's the way it looked. I had a hard time reading through this entire thread because there have been some opiniated, incorrect statements made. But let's move on.
I've never shot with military snipers, just with some LEO officers who were not snipers. So I don't know for sure what zero is most common. My impression has been that most are using a 100-yard zero. But aside from that, where one's zero is set has nothing to do with using a mil reticle to range or with the trend to move towards matching reticle & turrets.
The latter is simply a way to relate turret adjustments to what you see in the reticle without having to do an extra conversion.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Thank you, I've never thought of doing that actually. I guess if the target gave you the time it might work pretty well for milling.
Thank you, I've never thought of doing that actually. I guess if the target gave you the time it might work pretty well for milling.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
go get a board. measure it centimeters and try to cut in inches. same principal.
go get a board. measure it centimeters and try to cut in inches. same principal.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
Can you see that I'm just pissed about spending the extra $ for M5 dials vs. the M1 dials. LOL..........
Can you see that I'm just pissed about spending the extra $ for M5 dials vs. the M1 dials. LOL..........
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you see that I'm just pissed about spending the extra $ for M5 dials vs. the M1 dials. LOL..........</div></div>
WINNER
BTW M1 knobs are mushy turds.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you see that I'm just pissed about spending the extra $ for M5 dials vs. the M1 dials. LOL..........</div></div>
WINNER
BTW M1 knobs are mushy turds.
Re: Scope Marketing Hub Bub
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not running from anything. I just got tired of the frickin posts in my email. I made a mistake with my original post and I am regretting it and rightully so. I made an assumption based on my expierences as a CRT member and did not take into account that Military Snipers work off of 300 to 500 yard zeros. In that case mil/mil scopes make a lot of sense. Cops dont often shoot past 200 yards and most commonly zero their rifles at 100 just like your average hunter. I am not a military sniper and have never claimed to be one, but I served as a CRT Member(SWAT). I shoot mainly for fun now and I do some long distance stuff. I love this sport and love those who have served their Country at home and across seas. I would love to start having more intelligent conversations on this forum now. Thank You </div></div>
My goodness, but you'd give an aspirin a headache...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not running from anything. I just got tired of the frickin posts in my email. I made a mistake with my original post and I am regretting it and rightully so. I made an assumption based on my expierences as a CRT member and did not take into account that Military Snipers work off of 300 to 500 yard zeros. In that case mil/mil scopes make a lot of sense. Cops dont often shoot past 200 yards and most commonly zero their rifles at 100 just like your average hunter. I am not a military sniper and have never claimed to be one, but I served as a CRT Member(SWAT). I shoot mainly for fun now and I do some long distance stuff. I love this sport and love those who have served their Country at home and across seas. I would love to start having more intelligent conversations on this forum now. Thank You </div></div>
My goodness, but you'd give an aspirin a headache...
