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Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

K

Kevin1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 26, 2011
526
143
Allen, TX, USA
I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. I’m reading this comment a lot. I disagree with this in most cases (especially on rifle and scope recommendation). Usually this advice is given to beginners. Many consider themselves as advance shooters but they’re actually advance beginners (me included).

1. An advance Beginner could easily damage his equipment.
Before buying a high end rifle or scope, I would make sure that I make all my mistakes on cheaper equipments. How many beginners don’t know the proper cleaning method for a rifle? How many don’t fully understand the proper method of mounting a scope (torque, cant, etc..). How many beginners don’t have the proper tools?
Becoming knowledgeable in this area takes time and practice. A beginner WILL make mistakes. It just better to not make those mistakes on high end equipment. If you’re cleaning your rifle without a bore guide and a cheap rod, you better not have a GAP rifle. If you don’t exactly know how to mount a scope (it’s actually much more complicated than what I initially thought), then you better not buy a S&B.

2. You will enjoy your high end equipment much more if you have previously owned something cheaper.
I truly believe that you appreciate good things if you go through a learning curve and if you start with cheaper equipment. How can you judge how well a S&B tracks and how clear the glass is, if you have nothing to compare it against? How can you appreciate the quality of a Surgeon action if you have never owned a factory Remington or Savage?

To conclude I would say “If you buy once”, you might cry a lot more than just once.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

Whatever makes you feel better about buying crap...
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

i agree with him too but only for beginners who only think they know what they want, or if you buy a rifle with the intentions to upgrade over time
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

More than anything, decide if this is the "hobby" for you. Meaning. are you likely to lose interest-it's not for everyone.
I agree with you not necessarily about fucking your equipment up as I believe you will have done your homework along the way. in the beginning, I made some mistakes but those rifles still shoot tremendously well.

It is more important that you assess what's affordable to you and factor in the amount of money it will take feed your gun the proper ammo. Spend what you can and shoot alot.....

Now reloading is a whole other story.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I disagree, respectfully. I was an "advanced beginner" as you stated. I shot ALOT with AR based platforms. I know the fundamentals of shooting and know what I need to do to place the bullet where I need it.

I also already take care of my gear but if something happens in the field, so be it; I knew this was not a cheap sport when I started but I dont disrespect my gear.

I purchased a $5000 custom gun/scope from the get go because I wanted solid/proven built gun/scope for tactical/training/sport. Train with the best and the only short coming will be YOU.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I can see your point about people new to shooting making mistakes on expensive equipment. Learn to walk before you run type of thing, I suppose.

I don't think people should buy cheap though, which I don't think you're implying anyway. When people advise, “Buy once, cry once,” they mainly mean don't waste your money on cheap gear. Don't cut corners. Don't buy a Falcon because it looks as cool and has the same features as a Nightforce just to save some cash.

Many people here upgrade over time. They are able to do that because they invest wisely. For example, I started with a Sightron III. I learned, figured out what I wanted, and sold it for a very good return. I then bought a Nightforce. If I had bought a Falcon or some random hunting scope I wouldn't have made a third of my money back and I wouldn't have been able to upgrade to a Nightforce- I would have been at square one saving up again.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

19Scout, I’m just trying to give a different perspective to “buy once cry once”. This is my personal thought as an advance beginner. I never said to buy crap. I just think that for people who are not very high in the learning curve process, the best option is not to go with high end equipments. I even mentioned specifically Surgeon vs Remington or Savage. Now if you consider Remington or Savage to be crap, it’s a different debate.

KNIGHT11B4,
Yes I think mounting a scope is complicated. I used to think that you buy your rings, put the scope, hold the rifle and look through it to make sure it’s not canted, then put back the screw until it’s properly holding the rifle and your done. Last time I bought my 22lr, that’s how the gunshop mounted my scope.
But now I’m learning many new things. Like the importance of good rings, how to lap the rings, how not to mark the scope, proper torque, etc… And I’m still learning. Right now I’m trying to figure out how to make sure the canting on the scope is correct and why sometimes I have the impression it is canted only with my strong eye (red a good post on this recently). So yeh, for me mounting a scope is kinda complicated. Last year, when I was considering myself an advance shooter, mounting a scope was pretty easy though.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KEVIN

Do you by chance work for the federal govt ?
</div></div>

Hysterical.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

Btw- Kevin I think you are confusing buying a quality item versus buying the best money can buy.

Buy once cry once, refers to spend a little more upfront for something well made (let's say a leupold) rather than buying 3 pieces of junks (maybe countersniper?) that continually break and cause the new shooter to become frustrated with our sport due to crappy gear.

 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I can be one to vouch for learning "buy one, cry once" the hard way. Having spent hundreds, if not thousands on lower end parts, systems, gear, optics that I could have saved and just bought what I wanted the first time.

I can say with near 100% certainty, that a new shooter will not have any more chance of damaging a Surgeon/Badger/Stiller/etc action with a Nightforce/S&B/USO versus an R700 and a Bushnell. Not to say I haven't been able to push more than 1200yd with a .308 on a R700 action, it turns out half of it was me.

It was recommended that I build a .22, I spent $800 and had a top of the line .22, one that would put the same bullet through the same hole every time. Otherwise I would have been chasing my tail.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

What we do is expensive. Most of the guys on this site do not have the ability to shoot at longer ranges with out traveling extended distances. Does it take a 4k rifle to hit little targets at 100 or 200yds? Hell no. Hell are most going to be dragging their equipment in harsh conditions? Hell no. What mother nature does to me when I hunt is about as harsh as it gets.

There is nothing wrong with buying cheaper stuff if it suits what you are going to be doing. If you feel that you need a AI or NF or any other equipment like that then get it. I Haters are going to hate and posers are going to pose.


Hell from what I have been reading aparenly all it takes to shoot is some spin-d a scarf and a 4k rifle. I supose if you are only going to shoot 100 or 200yds I would think you could get by with a scarf?
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rpk762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What we do is expensive. Most of the guys on this site do not have the ability to shoot at longer ranges with out traveling extended distances. Does it take a 4k rifle to hit little targets at 100 or 200yds? Hell no. Hell are most going to be dragging their equipment in harsh conditions? Hell no. What mother nature does to me when I hunt is about as harsh as it gets.

There is nothing wrong with buying cheaper stuff if it suits what you are going to be doing. If you feel that you need a AI or NF or any other equipment like that then get it. I Haters are going to hate and posers are going to pose.


Hell from what I have been reading aparenly all it takes to shoot is some spin-d a scarf and a 4k rifle. I supose if you are only going to shoot 100 or 200yds I would think you could get by with a scarf?</div></div>

Now that is an interesting perspective, and important to note. If you don't even plan on shooting past ____ yards, then there is no reason to ever spend more than what you need. If you primarily hunt instead of LRTR competition, you don't need a 15lb $5000 rifle that touches out to 2000 yards. You need a light rifle, probably factory actions, and decent glass.

Need depends on application.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

My devil's advocate $0.02 (if it's even worth that much)

Perhaps a beginner can benefit from the high dollar quality rifle and scope than you think. If you have entry level stuff and it isn't shooting well...is it you? Is it the scope? Is it the rifle? Is it your Remington Core-Lokt's?

On the other hand, if you spend the money on quality stuff and your groups aren't good...it's probably you.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I don't know anyone that ruined their scope from mounting it. There is a wealth of info on how to here and on the internet. If you are uncomfortable then you can pay a smith to mount it for $40.

If you spend your money on cheap optics, ammo and whatever, you will not get repeatable results. How can you improve your skills with equipment that is not capable of repeat ability.

Buy the best you can afford. If you can't afford the better equipment then save up and have patience.

If you are going to shoot a box of ammo once a year then it probably doesn't matter. But if that's the case, why would you be on this site(rhetorical)

Totally disagree with this topic!
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

One more point. You can almost always recoupe the cost of quality gear. It lasts and retains value. The cheap stuff is difficult to sell and actually "costs" more.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

It's your money....buy what the hell you want. Someone gives you a reccomendation, well it's just that, nothing more.

I've bought many times and don't recall "crying" not once. Maybe I'm just not a cryer though. It's a rare case that someone can't get most of their money back on a rifle or a scope. Also, there is alot larger crowd of people that are ABLE to buy a used $700 rifle and a used $400-$900 scope versus a used $3500 rifle and a $1500-$2000 scope. Odds are the cheaper shit will sell faster if you decide to upgrade.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I've got to go along with not having to wonder if it is me or the euuipment is worth alot. Also good gear holds its value at the time of re-sale. You don't have to start off with a top tier custom rifle, but make the jump to good gear, even if you have to hold off a couple months more to save for it, or you will buy, and cry, more than once.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

good glass. save money on the rifle. buy used. If you did 'cry once' on a quality piece of used gear chances are most of the depreciation will be already done if you ever need to sell it.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

Grabbing popcorn for this one lol!
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DJ480</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grabbing popcorn for this one lol! </div></div>
+1

tag
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I understand your point and agree somewhat. Most people, especially beginners, will do just as well with a Vortex par on a R700 as with a Nightforce on a GAP. I wonder how many people "buy once, cry once" just to figure out the "best" equipment wasnt what they wanted. I've seen people on this site who bought AI's and got rid of them because they didn't fit. I don't think the point was to go out and buy a remington sps and a Bushnell scope from wally world and think you have a good setup. Upgrading over time is a valuable learning experience which in reality is unavoidable, spending huge amounts of money to figure out what you want doesn't make sense to me. But if you have more money than me, by all means enjoy yourself and help the economy.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

The used scopes that sell for $500 and up are typically not "cheap" scopes. The guys that want an Osprey or Barska or similar, are the scopes that guys think will be fine for precision. These are the ones that you are wasting your money on. Not everyone needs and S&B or Hensoldt
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I am a very, very firm believer in buy once/cry once.

Expensive precision shooting equipment is usually pretty robust, even optics. That's why high quality components are chosen for military use: soldiers destroy things. Good shit is harder to destroy.

Even though I don't think I'll ever use my weapons in serious situations, I always set my equipment up like I was going to war with it tomorrow. If I put shitty or cheap things on weapons that I know have a history of failure and could let me down at an inopportune moment, it constantly bothers me until I address that situation. Good shit gives you peace of mind.

If you take the time to do your research and find out what equipment will best suit your purposes to justify dropping the coin, you should also take the time to learn how to properly maintain your equipment. Fucking up your gear isn't that easy to do and is very easy to avoid, all you gotta do is read and ask questions. If you commit yourself to learning what good shit is, you will learn how to use it properly in the process to protect your investment.

There is nothing to really gain by owning cheap gear first. Of course there is the comparative aspect of appreciating an AI rifle over, say, a stock Remington or Savage, but that's not going to make you a better shooter. If you do own a crappy rifle and get your hands on a nice one, all it's going to do for you is make you feel like you wasted your money and need to start saving again and sell your rifle at a loss. Buying good shit will save you from the feeling of owning sub-par gear, and having sub-par gear before good shit may make you feel even better about your investment, but it will not make you a better shooter.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just wanted to share my thoughts on this. I’m reading this comment a lot. I disagree with this in most cases (especially on rifle and scope recommendation). Usually this advice is given to beginners. Many consider themselves as advance shooters but they’re actually advance beginners (me included).

1. An advance Beginner could easily damage his equipment.
Before buying a high end rifle or scope, I would make sure that I make all my mistakes on cheaper equipments. How many beginners don’t know the proper cleaning method for a rifle? How many don’t fully understand the proper method of mounting a scope (torque, cant, etc..). How many beginners don’t have the proper tools?
Becoming knowledgeable in this area takes time and practice. A beginner WILL make mistakes. It just better to not make those mistakes on high end equipment. If you’re cleaning your rifle without a bore guide and a cheap rod, you better not have a GAP rifle. If you don’t exactly know how to mount a scope (it’s actually much more complicated than what I initially thought), then you better not buy a S&B.

2. You will enjoy your high end equipment much more if you have previously owned something cheaper.
I truly believe that you appreciate good things if you go through a learning curve and if you start with cheaper equipment. How can you judge how well a S&B tracks and how clear the glass is, if you have nothing to compare it against? How can you appreciate the quality of a Surgeon action if you have never owned a factory Remington or Savage?

To conclude I would say “If you buy once”, you might cry a lot more than just once.
</div></div>


ummmmm. ok how do i put this nicely????????? i cant. i dont believe every one should have a 2k scope but you need to buy good equipment to start or get your ass handed to you, and if you buy good stuff and treat it like shit. you a dumb ass

i think that sums up 1 and 2.

i have 3k in my rig, platform and optics my buddy got close to 5k i can roll his eggs 1/2 the time other 1/2 im giving him run fro money. but if you roll up and think a low budget build with crappy optics that fade at magnification and a rock mount bi-pod and a stock that you paied 300.00 for is going to run, go back to the tree stand

sorry

so yes you don't have to have the best but what you do have needs to work

go tell your buddy's to by cheep crap they wont be buddy's for long, then the'll hand you your but

thats my $.02
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I could give a shit what final decision someone makes when it comes to spending their money. 99% of the time guys are given sound honest advice here as long as they ask for it. I can share my own experience and what I would have done differently.

3 years ago I got a Savage 10FP 308. My begining setup was the stock rifle with a harris bipod and Millett TRS-1. Rifle shot well in its stock configuration but I wanted a more stable platform to begin competing. While I was in the process of buying my equipment to handload and learning how, the Millett failed. Replaced it with a 16XSS. This was a good scope for the price point. Served me well while I was learning. The handloading setup was the best investment I have made to date. With a little time and TLC I can load ammo far more accurate than anythng I bought. It is a must IMO. I then upgraded my stock to a B&C Medalist. Another good move for a good price. The quality was FAR better than my original stock. As I got better and my groups shrank I wanted more again. I wanted better equipment and to also take advantage of the better projectiles that are available. So I stipped my rifle down. Sold the 308 bbl, stock, scope and all my 308 loading equipment. Ordered a 284 bbl, stock from Kevin Rayhill at Stockade and will have a US Optics SN3 3.2-17 Tpal here soon.
Now this is where opinions will vary. Was their anything wrong with my rifle before I stripped it down and decided to upgrade? NO. It was easily a 1/2-1 moa rifle. It was dependable and served me well. The setup also allowed me to be competative in the comps I participated in. But I wanted more. IF I could turn back time I would have done it the right way the first time. To me I feel as though I would have been better served in the long run if I would have waited 4-6 more months while saving up the money vs buying a 10FP and a TRS-1 and going to town. Some might agree with me, some might not agree. Like I said this is my opinion, take it for what its worth. Also after having a little more experience with different optics I know will only ever consider the following pending it fits the requirements of what I want out of other rifles.
SS fixed powers
PST, SS HD, Sightron, Bushnell Tactical and up
In my short time in the LR game I have seen troubles with a lot of optics and had a chance to use quite a few. Again my opinion but it is based off experience and buying / selling shit (loosing money along the way) to understand what quality really is. So to sum up my 3 short years in this hobby, YES I am now a firm believer in buying once and crying once. Or buying once and listening to the old lady bitch for a month. Bottom line is I have a 284 barreled action in my room now with no stock and no optic and I will be pushing it to be ready by spring (waiting on stock and load development). Had I been patient and done it right 3 years ago I wouldnt be in this situation! My advice to all newbies it to research, research and more research. Try different rifles. Learn what a quality optic is before you purchase a scope. Dont buy a 308 assuming it is the best. Learn to handload ammo. If you do all of these things then you have a better chance of being content with your setup in the long run.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

tell em- like it was is and should be, lol but your right. research is the best way. and go finger a few 1st if you can if not do more research. if you don't have time or are lazy then you should save your money or don't come crying
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cowboy1978</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tell em- like it was is and should be, lol but your right. research is the best way. and go finger a few 1st if you can if not do more research. if you don't have time or are lazy then you should save your money or don't come crying </div></div>

very true! My process was also slowed due to funding my moneypit of a 22LR trainer. Which happens to now be my favorite rifle. We will save that topic for another day as this thread leaves bigger fish to fry.
smile.gif
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

lol you guys are gear tards. nobody goes " all in " when starting out in something.

when you bought your TV did you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE to have the BEST

when you bought your car did you buy the fastest you could find?

Yes you need to be able to trust your gear when starting out...

I did learn that, I had a savage 10fp and falcon menace.. I decided I couldn't trust my scope and upgraded.

but that was a lesson worth learning, did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no, especially since it is the first time I shot past 500yds outside USMC an irons....

but now I know better what I want and what I need. making everyone who reads this think they need spendy optics when a $200 10x busnell and savage might meet there needs out to 800yds is supremely gearwhorish and unhelpfull.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol you guys are gear tards. nobody goes " all in " when starting out in something.

when you bought your TV did you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE to have the BEST

when you bought your car did you buy the fastest you could find?

Yes you need to be able to trust your gear when starting out...

I did learn that, I had a savage 10fp and falcon menace.. I decided I couldn't trust my scope and upgraded.

but that was a lesson worth learning, did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no, especially since it is the first time I shot past 500yds outside USMC an irons....

but now I know better what I want and what I need. making everyone who reads this think they need spendy optics when a $200 10x busnell and savage might meet there needs out to 800yds is supremely gearwhorish and unhelpfull.

</div></div>

Like I said it was my opinion and I feel in my situation I would have been better off. Do your research and you will be better off in making a decision on what fits your needs best. Maybe a 200 bushnell does, but maybee you will decide that you want to save for a few months to get that Nightforce or similar.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

The buy once cry once does make sense, if you use some common sense doing it.
The warning is usually for someone asking if a $50.00 BSA scope will get them out to 1000 yards with their dad's lightweight .308.

I agree that most of us do not need a $5k rifle and a $2k scope. I think most are similar to what I have planned. Probably next week I will be buying a Remington 5R. I have a Vortex scope, and sometimes good enough is good enough. I use a Harris 6-9 swivel bipod and will probably keep the rifle in the HS stock for a while. For me and the shooting I do this rifle is a buy once cry once deal. A GAP rifle would be a lot more than I need.

Jim
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol you guys are gear tards. nobody goes " all in " when starting out in something.

when you bought your TV did you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE to have the BEST

when you bought your car did you buy the fastest you could find?</div></div>

Not a valid comparison. A rifle is a tool meant to do a job, and that job is to put holes in things at distance as accurately as possible. If your hobby was racing cars, yes, you should buy the absolute fastest car you can afford if you want to perform competitively. A TV is not something you use, it's something you sit passively and watch. You don't need it to perform, and it can't do anything to aid in your performance.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes you need to be able to trust your gear when starting out...

I did learn that, I had a savage 10fp and falcon menace.. I decided I couldn't trust my scope and upgraded.
but that was a lesson worth learning, did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no, especially since it is the first time I shot past 500yds outside USMC an irons....
</div></div>

You could have learned that lesson without throwing money in the trash had you been more patient and attentive. A wiser man would have searched the forums and realized that the Falcon Menace has a track record of unreliability, then waited until he could afford something better. Let fools make mistakes for you.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but now I know better what I want and what I need. making everyone who reads this think they need spendy optics when a $200 10x busnell and savage might meet there needs out to 800yds is supremely gearwhorish and unhelpfull.

</div></div>

I've never once seen someone say "Oh, you've got to have a S&B or USO scope for that." When someone says they need a scope, the next question is always "What kind of shooting do you do?" and that is the question that brings in the recommendation. The best optics for you are the best optics you can afford. I would LOVE a S&B PMII. Unfortunately, I cannot afford a S&B PMII, so I went with a $1200 IOR. I am extremely pleased with my set up because I did the research and compromised where I could and didn't where I couldn't. I sunk 3k into my first precision rifle setup and have not a single regret.

In this world you tend to notice that people arrive at similar conclusions in gear selection. If you look, you'll notice that the most sought after optics are Premier, USO, Nightforce, and S&B. The most popular stocks are Manners and McMillan. The most popular rifles are Remingtons and Savages. Why? It's because they have a track record of success and are all proven. If you can afford good shit, go for it, because you're almost guaranteed to end up wanting it once you use it.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I think it depends on your priorities what you can afford. Some of us drive nicer cars because we place a greater value on that. I choose to drive cars that are paid for so i can fund my other toys that are higher on my list.

Do the research and seek out reliable gear first. When i started it was with a Remington SPS Tactical because i did the research and it had a record of delivering .5 moa. I put a 10x Bushnell Elite on it because it had a good track record for the $200 scope range. That setup was very capable. Would i start there over again? Absolutely, heck if the economy gets bad enough i take comfort in knowing that if i had to i could always go back to that basic setup and be plenty lethal if not more so now.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you look, you'll notice that the most sought after optics are Premier, USO, Nightforce, and S&B. The most popular stocks are Manners and McMillan. The most popular rifles are Remingtons and Savages. Why? It's because they have a track record of success and are all proven.</div></div>

Most hyped on snipershide doesn't mean the best for all applications...
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you look, you'll notice that the most sought after optics are Premier, USO, Nightforce, and S&B. The most popular stocks are Manners and McMillan. The most popular rifles are Remingtons and Savages. Why? It's because they have a track record of success and are all proven.</div></div>

Most hyped on snipershide doesn't mean the best for all applications...
</div></div>

Hyped? Absolutely. Undeservedly? The military and other professionals don't think so evidently. You don't often find optics that are cheaper and offer the same features as similar and more expensive offerings that are "best" for any application. If you're looking for a 5-20x50 scope and have a choice between one that costs 500 bucks and one that costs 2000 bucks, the one that costs $2000 is going to be the best choice every day and twice on Sunday. Whether or not you can afford it or if it's best for your wallet is another issue, but it WILL be the best for your application. Good glass costs.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I'm a big fan of buy once cry once. I shoot Tac Matches and mostly use M1A type gasguns. My first one I bought had a deal were I could buy a scope mount for the rifle and the grand price of $30 and thought it was a great deal. Once the mount was on and scope was in it's rings I took it to the range and zeroed the rifle. After the scope was zeroed I ran the target out to 300 yds and was placing some rounds on paper and noticed the group was opening up until it was a shotgun pattern, hum what's that all about what am I doing wrong. after taping the holes I can back to the bench and pick the rifle up and noticed a little wiggle in the scope. My new mount had shot loose. Dam had to go back home and re-tighten. I went through this two more times and on the third time it seemed secure. Later that month I shot the rifle in a match. The first three targets (1 at 100yds, 1 at 500 yds, 1 at 400 yds) all dropped with one shot hits but the last target (also at 400 yds.) took the rest the 20 round mag plus a third of the second mag to go down. I laid there ( I was in prone) wondering what the hell I did wrong and felt like I was the reason I was missing that last target (minded you I was still fairly new to shooting and didn't even think to blame equipment just thought man I suck. Then once I stood up out of the corner of my eye I notice the scope wiggling shit the mount shot loose again only this time a piece broke broke off. I went home and ordered a mount that cost 8 time the cost of the first mount ($250 was the cost of the new mount). 20 years later and I still have that same mount and it is still on that same rifle oh and it never shot loose. Now what do you think the second mount really cost me......... $250 plus $30 plus shipping and unknown cost of ammo chasing zeros on the first mount. So some were around $300 is what I paid for a $250 mount. I also summit to you that I buy once (buying good equipment) so that I can take the equipment out of the equation and only have my actions to look at. I have had the same experience with optics and cheaper parts That I would use on a rifle. Now I just buy good equipment and not waste time, more money, ammo. When the gear is working I don't have to worry and can work on my shooting and not wonder is it me or the rifle or the scope or mount or rings or the ammo. My last match at 1000 yds. the wind was kicking but steady. I was starting to chase windage mostly one mil right and it seemed to get worse as the day went on. I again figured it was me. It wasn't until one shot went 1 mil right and when I made the correction the next shot went 2 mils left. Turned out the new rings I had which had windage adjustments in them shot loose. Shit should have stuck with Badgers and called it good. So I summit to you even new guys should buy good equipment and good equipment cost more than the crap. If they (new shooters) buy good equipment that will most likely remove one variable in a game that is filled with lots and lots of Variables.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I think what it boils down to, as others have stated is:

Don't buy junk!

There's always diminishing returns, so where to start price wise is where that curve really begins to steepen. I just picked up a viper PST and have also recently looked through a USO.

Is the USO better? Yes. Is it three times as good? No. Is it twice as good? No.

Is my PST three times as good as my 10x SS? No. Is it twice as good? Yes.

The curve starts to get really steep with precision pretty quick. Unless you are at the top of your game and are actually using the equipment in to its maximum, then you can get away with stuff that is good and not superb.

I worked as a photographer for a few years and for most people, they don't need a $6000 set-up. But they'll actually be able to take a lot better pictures by spending $500 instead of $300. They won't really do much better with the $5000 set-up and when they can, the price won't mater so much because it's become a big enough part of their lives that its worth it.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnnycat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the other hand, if you spend the money on quality stuff and your groups aren't good...it's probably you. </div></div>

I've seen a couple of "harvesters" drive themselves mad with cheap scopes. With all the quality competition available today we do actually cry a lot less than just 5 year ago.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol you guys are gear tards. nobody goes " all in " when starting out in something.

when you bought your TV did you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE to have the BEST

when you bought your car did you buy the fastest you could find?</div></div>

Not a valid comparison. A rifle is a tool meant to do a job, and that job is to put holes in things at distance as accurately as possible. If your hobby was racing cars, yes, you should buy the absolute fastest car you can afford if you want to perform competitively. A TV is not something you use, it's something you sit passively and watch. You don't need it to perform, and it can't do anything to aid in your performance.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes you need to be able to trust your gear when starting out...

I did learn that, I had a savage 10fp and falcon menace.. I decided I couldn't trust my scope and upgraded.
but that was a lesson worth learning, did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no, especially since it is the first time I shot past 500yds outside USMC an irons....
</div></div>

You could have learned that lesson without throwing money in the trash had you been more patient and attentive. A wiser man would have searched the forums and realized that the Falcon Menace has a track record of unreliability, then waited until he could afford something better. Let fools make mistakes for you.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but now I know better what I want and what I need. making everyone who reads this think they need spendy optics when a $200 10x busnell and savage might meet there needs out to 800yds is supremely gearwhorish and unhelpfull.

</div></div>

I've never once seen someone say "Oh, you've got to have a S&B or USO scope for that." When someone says they need a scope, the next question is always "What kind of shooting do you do?" and that is the question that brings in the recommendation. The best optics for you are the best optics you can afford. I would LOVE a S&B PMII. Unfortunately, I cannot afford a S&B PMII, so I went with a $1200 IOR. I am extremely pleased with my set up because I did the research and compromised where I could and didn't where I couldn't. I sunk 3k into my first precision rifle setup and have not a single regret.

In this world you tend to notice that people arrive at similar conclusions in gear selection. If you look, you'll notice that the most sought after optics are Premier, USO, Nightforce, and S&B. The most popular stocks are Manners and McMillan. The most popular rifles are Remingtons and Savages. Why? It's because they have a track record of success and are all proven. If you can afford good shit, go for it, because you're almost guaranteed to end up wanting it once you use it. </div></div>

+1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it depends on your priorities what you can afford. Some of us drive nicer cars because we place a greater value on that. I choose to drive cars that are paid for so i can fund my other toys that are higher on my list.

Do the research and seek out reliable gear first. When i started it was with a Remington SPS Tactical because i did the research and it had a record of delivering .5 moa. I put a 10x Bushnell Elite on it because it had a good track record for the $200 scope range. That setup was very capable. Would i start there over again? Absolutely, heck if the economy gets bad enough i take comfort in knowing that if i had to i could always go back to that basic setup and be plenty lethal if not more so now. </div></div>


+ 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol you guys are gear tards. nobody goes " all in " when starting out in something.

when you bought your TV did you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE to have the BEST

when you bought your car did you buy the fastest you could find?

Yes you need to be able to trust your gear when starting out...

I did learn that, I had a savage 10fp and falcon menace.. I decided I couldn't trust my scope and upgraded.

but that was a lesson worth learning, did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no, especially since it is the first time I shot past 500yds outside USMC an irons....

but now I know better what I want and what I need. making everyone who reads this think they need spendy optics when a $200 10x busnell and savage might meet there needs out to 800yds is supremely gearwhorish and unhelpfull.

</div></div>

i love this lol im red neck but whats this???? lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sweetbeard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">did I need $1200 optics on my first .308? hells to the no,</span></span> </div></div>


I got a rem 700 blue printed acc-sd with a B&C m40 stock a bager drop metal and a Timmy trigger 20 moa rail and a Falcon Menace 4.5 x 25 x 50mm 4" sunshade and a Harris bi, and i can walk a sub-moa group all day long. the reason is i did extensive load research. barrel harmonics, in- barrel timing. i have specific powder for a specific projectile, and a load for the areas im shooting. if im going to 3-500 yards i shoot a 178 amax if im going 500-800 i shoot a 168 amax if im going to 800+ i have a 168 amax.

i shoot under a 1/2 at 100 under 1 at 200 under a 1 1/2 at 300, i start opening up closer to 500. after 500 it goes out the window a little but i have consistently stayed with in MOA to the 750 mark im working on loads after that. at this point i have not made it in the 1k club looking to do that this weekend, ( that's 1k in 2 shots )

mostly because at power my scope does fade and im not the best at seeing and reading cross winds but ill get it, and when my barrel goes to crap, ill get a new one. ill never own a gap. mainly because my wallet wont take the hit and you don't need it if you do your research.

you don't have to buy a corvette off the bat but if you got a pacer give it up.

buy once cry once is not buy once and shoot your self in the head



if your going to get in to long range with a stock 770 and Winchester white box. stay in the tree stand, (although i got a 770 that has been worked over a little and its a nail driver out to 300 yrds 300 win mag too.) but that's not what im getting at.

know what bedding a action is and get it done, know what bedding a rail is and get it done learn how to straight edge a set of rings to check bedding.

learn the math then do the math. don't be pissed because some one says you got to have the top crap. you don't but the crap you got better work or you better learn how to compensate. Kentucky wind-age don't work past 500 yrds consistently, and forget about it if you don't have a consistent load

long range is expensive unfortunately but if you do your math you can make it fun and not a wallet killer.

call bull if you like i don't care don't have to. the people on her i shoot with and i converse with, know making a lesser quality but still good gun is in the load development, and free float. if you cant agree with that buy a gap.

O and get some Hbn 70nm, Hexagonal Boron Nitride. if you don't know about it you need too.


IMG_0848.jpg




dont mind the chalk lines its when i 1st cut the case.

and its cheaper if you learn how to build your own rifle with the exception of the blueprinting. i did all the work. bedding the stock and rail all the load developing with help from LR-WSM cause out of the gate i was a hand-gunner reloader
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

I think it all depends on the shooter, what his financial means are, and the use of the rifle.

For a guy that's going to hunt whitetails (close range) once or twice a year, and a couple of trips to the 100 yard range, where would he be able to realize the quality of a $3K stick?

For him, an inexpensive factory stick and a $200 Bushnell 3-9 is perfect, and will do what he needs it for, and well. It need only shoot minute of deer....

As mentioned already, a precision shooter, or someone that intends to shoot long range at some point with the rifle...THAT's where you need the quality that justifies the extra expense.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrooperBrian</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can be one to vouch for learning "buy one, cry once" the hard way. Having spent hundreds, if not thousands on lower end parts, systems, gear, optics that I could have saved and just bought what I wanted the first time.

I can say with near 100% certainty, that a new shooter will not have any more chance of damaging a Surgeon/Badger/Stiller/etc action with a Nightforce/S&B/USO versus an R700 and a Bushnell. Not to say I haven't been able to push more than 1200yd with a .308 on a R700 action, it turns out half of it was me.

It was recommended that I build a .22, I spent $800 and had a top of the line .22, one that would put the same bullet through the same hole every time. Otherwise I would have been chasing my tail. </div></div>

I agree that a new shooter will not have any more chance of damaging a Surgeon vs a Remington. But damaging a Remington will cost less.
Now I’m very interested in your .22 build. Could you give me some info? Right now I have a Savage Mark2G that was accurized (the accurizing package cost me more than the gun ). Now it’s solid 1moa rifle (.5 inch at 50Y). I was this close of getting a cooper 57 or an Anschutz 1710. Now if I can have the kinda accuracy you’re describing for $800, I’d be more than interested.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lonely_Wolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can see your point about people new to shooting making mistakes on expensive equipment. Learn to walk before you run type of thing, I suppose.

I don't think people should buy cheap though, which I don't think you're implying anyway. When people advise, “Buy once, cry once,” they mainly mean don't waste your money on cheap gear. Don't cut corners. Don't buy a Falcon because it looks as cool and has the same features as a Nightforce just to save some cash.

Many people here upgrade over time. They are able to do that because they invest wisely. For example, I started with a Sightron III. I learned, figured out what I wanted, and sold it for a very good return. I then bought a Nightforce. If I had bought a Falcon or some random hunting scope I wouldn't have made a third of my money back and I wouldn't have been able to upgrade to a Nightforce- I would have been at square one saving up again. </div></div>

As you mentioned, I’m not implying buying cheap stuff. I’m recommending quality equipments that are reliable (SS scope, Rem tactical, Savage 10/12, etc…).
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

This is why smoking meth and posting on the internet isn't a good idea.

Enjoy chasing your POI and wondering why your not on target when you dial with your piece of crap equipment.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Btw- Kevin I think you are confusing buying a quality item versus buying the best money can buy.

Buy once cry once, refers to spend a little more upfront for something well made (let's say a leupold) rather than buying 3 pieces of junks (maybe countersniper?) that continually break and cause the new shooter to become frustrated with our sport due to crappy gear.

</div></div>

I’m not sure that I’m confusing buying a quality item versus buying the best money can buy.
Many people who have replied to this post are suggesting to buy the best money can buy. How many times have I read (on this and other topics) “buy the best scope you can afford”?
Well, I can afford a S&B but will not buy it because I think for my level a SS 10X42 at $400 is more suitable.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: predatornut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand your point and agree somewhat. Most people, especially beginners, will do just as well with a Vortex par on a R700 as with a Nightforce on a GAP. I wonder how many people "buy once, cry once" just to figure out the "best" equipment wasnt what they wanted. I've seen people on this site who bought AI's and got rid of them because they didn't fit. I don't think the point was to go out and buy a remington sps and a Bushnell scope from wally world and think you have a good setup. Upgrading over time is a valuable learning experience which in reality is unavoidable, spending huge amounts of money to figure out what you want doesn't make sense to me. But if you have more money than me, by all means enjoy yourself and help the economy. </div></div>

I totally agree. I love shooting long range and I know that I’ll end up with top of line equipment. But I don’t know if later I would want to participate in any match (and which one?) and I’m not sure what’s the best equipment for my need (a fix 10X, a 5-22, single shot, detachable mag, etc…). I do have money but definitely not enough to order an AI and then just get rid of it and loose $1000 in the process.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mahk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Even though I don't think I'll ever use my weapons in serious situations, I always set my equipment up like I was going to war with it tomorrow.
</div></div>
If there was any chance that I would go to war with it, I would buy a S&B mounted on a AI right away. I would actually buy 2 of each.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

If you buy something nice at the beginning chances are it has a better warranty if you break it. Also if you decide you don't like it the resale value will be better.
 
Re: Buy once cry once: Totally disagree

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BrettSass844</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I could give a shit what final decision someone makes when it comes to spending their money. 99% of the time guys are given sound honest advice here as long as they ask for it. I can share my own experience and what I would have done differently.

3 years ago I got a Savage 10FP 308. My begining setup was the stock rifle with a harris bipod and Millett TRS-1. Rifle shot well in its stock configuration but I wanted a more stable platform to begin competing. While I was in the process of buying my equipment to handload and learning how, the Millett failed. Replaced it with a 16XSS. This was a good scope for the price point. Served me well while I was learning. The handloading setup was the best investment I have made to date. With a little time and TLC I can load ammo far more accurate than anythng I bought. It is a must IMO. I then upgraded my stock to a B&C Medalist. Another good move for a good price. The quality was FAR better than my original stock. As I got better and my groups shrank I wanted more again. I wanted better equipment and to also take advantage of the better projectiles that are available. So I stipped my rifle down. Sold the 308 bbl, stock, scope and all my 308 loading equipment. Ordered a 284 bbl, stock from Kevin Rayhill at Stockade and will have a US Optics SN3 3.2-17 Tpal here soon.
Now this is where opinions will vary. Was their anything wrong with my rifle before I stripped it down and decided to upgrade? NO. It was easily a 1/2-1 moa rifle. It was dependable and served me well. The setup also allowed me to be competative in the comps I participated in. But I wanted more. IF I could turn back time I would have done it the right way the first time. To me I feel as though I would have been better served in the long run if I would have waited 4-6 more months while saving up the money vs buying a 10FP and a TRS-1 and going to town. Some might agree with me, some might not agree. Like I said this is my opinion, take it for what its worth. Also after having a little more experience with different optics I know will only ever consider the following pending it fits the requirements of what I want out of other rifles.
SS fixed powers
PST, SS HD, Sightron, Bushnell Tactical and up
In my short time in the LR game I have seen troubles with a lot of optics and had a chance to use quite a few. Again my opinion but it is based off experience and buying / selling shit (loosing money along the way) to understand what quality really is. So to sum up my 3 short years in this hobby, YES I am now a firm believer in buying once and crying once. Or buying once and listening to the old lady bitch for a month. Bottom line is I have a 284 barreled action in my room now with no stock and no optic and I will be pushing it to be ready by spring (waiting on stock and load development). Had I been patient and done it right 3 years ago I wouldnt be in this situation! My advice to all newbies it to research, research and more research. Try different rifles. Learn what a quality optic is before you purchase a scope. Dont buy a 308 assuming it is the best. Learn to handload ammo. If you do all of these things then you have a better chance of being content with your setup in the long run. </div></div>

This is very interesting. It’s very similar (I guess we did the same kind of research) to my story and I could definitely learn a lot from your experience. Right now I have a SS10X42M mounted on a 308 Savage 10FP. I started reloading a few months ago. Now I’m thinking of upgrade either my stock or my barrel. I think it makes sense to upgrade the stock first (would you be kind enough to send me a link to where you purchased your Savage stock?). But at this point haven’t looked into participating in any match.
 
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