My brother and I were getting into a conversation about reloading since he does and I want to order my stuff and start next month and he said he would carry hand loads and we really didn't go further into that. Why would your not want to ccw with hand loads?
Sidearms & Scatterguns Why not ccw with hand loads
- Thread starter futurerider103
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Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Being missouri and tennessee(where I and and will be) are both states with "stand your ground" states would that make any difference?
Being missouri and tennessee(where I and and will be) are both states with "stand your ground" states would that make any difference?
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Has this ever been proven or is this one of those internet myths someone heard about and keeps telling other people until everyone thinks it is fact. A bullet weather factory or handloads is still made to kill the person I am shooting at. I dont see it coming into play to much at least here in Wyoming.
Has this ever been proven or is this one of those internet myths someone heard about and keeps telling other people until everyone thinks it is fact. A bullet weather factory or handloads is still made to kill the person I am shooting at. I dont see it coming into play to much at least here in Wyoming.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Its not illegal to use hand loads, however if you were put on trial to challenge the validity of your self defense shooting, the D.A. could claim you purposely manufactured ammo to be more powerful and do more damage. On the same line, if the (now dead) attacker's family tried to sue you, they could try to make you as a bad guy for manufacturing more powerful ammo. (one thing I've noticed is anti-gun people tend to think making your own ammo should be considered a criminal act, and only people up to no good would make their own ammo. This perception could be enough to sway a jury out of your favor).
Its not illegal to use hand loads, however if you were put on trial to challenge the validity of your self defense shooting, the D.A. could claim you purposely manufactured ammo to be more powerful and do more damage. On the same line, if the (now dead) attacker's family tried to sue you, they could try to make you as a bad guy for manufacturing more powerful ammo. (one thing I've noticed is anti-gun people tend to think making your own ammo should be considered a criminal act, and only people up to no good would make their own ammo. This perception could be enough to sway a jury out of your favor).
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
I have searched and not ever found even a single reported case in Lexis or Westlaw containing the words "handload" or "reload" near the word "ammunition" unless referring to a criminal defendant reloading his gun before shooting more people.
I do not carry handloads anymore, but I'm also unpersuaded as to the internet myths surrounding this issue.
This is not legal advice and is merely my observation. The criminal law is complicated and self defense statutes are broad, but not perfect.
I have searched and not ever found even a single reported case in Lexis or Westlaw containing the words "handload" or "reload" near the word "ammunition" unless referring to a criminal defendant reloading his gun before shooting more people.
I do not carry handloads anymore, but I'm also unpersuaded as to the internet myths surrounding this issue.
This is not legal advice and is merely my observation. The criminal law is complicated and self defense statutes are broad, but not perfect.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Don't worry! If it ever comes that you need to worry about it, it will be the least of your problems. The DA needs 12 YOU only need 1. If your lucky someone like minded will be in the jury box. If not FIRE your lawyer.
Don't worry! If it ever comes that you need to worry about it, it will be the least of your problems. The DA needs 12 YOU only need 1. If your lucky someone like minded will be in the jury box. If not FIRE your lawyer.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
SIG700 said it well...I admittedly have never heard of an actual case where this occurred, although I like to use what LE agencies use to make things as straight forward as possible...I think bottom line is that if you end up using lethal force you are going to have plenty of legal and civil ramifications nevertheless
SIG700 said it well...I admittedly have never heard of an actual case where this occurred, although I like to use what LE agencies use to make things as straight forward as possible...I think bottom line is that if you end up using lethal force you are going to have plenty of legal and civil ramifications nevertheless
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
SIG700 I as well put it like I understand it.
It is not illegal as far as I understand it in Utah. But another thing in the mix that I would opt out if I ever went to trial.
Think about it. All you have to do is buy one box of factory ammo to carry with. The rest of your shooting use reloads.
SIG700 I as well put it like I understand it.
It is not illegal as far as I understand it in Utah. But another thing in the mix that I would opt out if I ever went to trial.
Think about it. All you have to do is buy one box of factory ammo to carry with. The rest of your shooting use reloads.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.
...reason enough for me to carry factory ammo...
I often carry a Glock 20 in a shoulder rig with 2 spare mags, for a total of 46 rounds on tap, arguably the MOST expensive system/method/rig to buy quality ammo for, and it cost $45...almost one full box of Double Tap.
I can't think of any practical advantage to loading your own carry ammo. Saving $25 (once or twice a lifetime) isn't practical.
I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.
...reason enough for me to carry factory ammo...
I often carry a Glock 20 in a shoulder rig with 2 spare mags, for a total of 46 rounds on tap, arguably the MOST expensive system/method/rig to buy quality ammo for, and it cost $45...almost one full box of Double Tap.
I can't think of any practical advantage to loading your own carry ammo. Saving $25 (once or twice a lifetime) isn't practical.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Not saying I won't use factory when I carry I just wanted to knows why not since you are already reloading anyways. I would think the argument about making rounds more deadly by reloading would be relevant since you can carry anything from a 22lr to a smith and wesson 500 which is way bigger and cause way more damage than 22lr or even a 9mm.
Not saying I won't use factory when I carry I just wanted to knows why not since you are already reloading anyways. I would think the argument about making rounds more deadly by reloading would be relevant since you can carry anything from a 22lr to a smith and wesson 500 which is way bigger and cause way more damage than 22lr or even a 9mm.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Concerning the argument about more powerful ammo, couldn't the attorney argue that with any ammo. If someone selects one kind of ammunition over another, couldn't the prosecutor argue about <span style="font-style: italic">buying </span>more powerful ammo just as much as <span style="font-style: italic">making </span>more powerful ammo. Of course this all conjecture at this point but still...
Concerning the argument about more powerful ammo, couldn't the attorney argue that with any ammo. If someone selects one kind of ammunition over another, couldn't the prosecutor argue about <span style="font-style: italic">buying </span>more powerful ammo just as much as <span style="font-style: italic">making </span>more powerful ammo. Of course this all conjecture at this point but still...
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Its a one way ticket to law suite.
You shoot someone with handloads they will make you out to be some gun nut who makes his own rounds specifically to kill people. WE know that's stupid, but if you think for a second the legal system is either fair or on your side, let me laugh at you for ignorance. Same reason I don't carry a custom gun. Worst thing, let me say that again WORST THING you can carry is handloads. Best thing is actually FMJ but I won't do it simply because I think it's dangerous to backdrop and prone to over penetration.
Best advice for carry ammo, use exactly what your local law enforcement uses, if asked, "I called my local PD and asked what they recommend" Then guess who can testify on your behalf.
You think Horandy will send someone?
Why chance it? Spend twenty bucks and God forbid you have to use it, it may save you either jail time or a mega law suite cost.
Its a one way ticket to law suite.
You shoot someone with handloads they will make you out to be some gun nut who makes his own rounds specifically to kill people. WE know that's stupid, but if you think for a second the legal system is either fair or on your side, let me laugh at you for ignorance. Same reason I don't carry a custom gun. Worst thing, let me say that again WORST THING you can carry is handloads. Best thing is actually FMJ but I won't do it simply because I think it's dangerous to backdrop and prone to over penetration.
Best advice for carry ammo, use exactly what your local law enforcement uses, if asked, "I called my local PD and asked what they recommend" Then guess who can testify on your behalf.
You think Horandy will send someone?
Why chance it? Spend twenty bucks and God forbid you have to use it, it may save you either jail time or a mega law suite cost.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it.
How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy. </div></div>
Couldn't agree more. Put a different primer in the case instead of what the manufacturer uses? Don't crimp it it when the manufacturer does? Just too much to have to worry about.
Guarantee the ballistic expert that the prosecuting attorney hires will more than likely be able to tell the difference between an fmj and a hollow point. If you say it is something that it is not and they can prove it does it make you look innocent or guilty?
Again, I would not simply because even if it is legal more fuel for the fire. Not everyone will see it as self defense. And those are the ones who will look at every avenue possible to make your life a living hell for protecting yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy. </div></div>
Couldn't agree more. Put a different primer in the case instead of what the manufacturer uses? Don't crimp it it when the manufacturer does? Just too much to have to worry about.
Guarantee the ballistic expert that the prosecuting attorney hires will more than likely be able to tell the difference between an fmj and a hollow point. If you say it is something that it is not and they can prove it does it make you look innocent or guilty?
Again, I would not simply because even if it is legal more fuel for the fire. Not everyone will see it as self defense. And those are the ones who will look at every avenue possible to make your life a living hell for protecting yourself.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy. </div></div>
Or they could make you out to be a Rambo-cop wannabe.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy. </div></div>
Or they could make you out to be a Rambo-cop wannabe.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.</div></div>
You apparently haven't used much Remington. I bout two boxes of Remington 158 gr SWC, a good third of them too two to three hammer hits to get them to go off.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.</div></div>
You apparently haven't used much Remington. I bout two boxes of Remington 158 gr SWC, a good third of them too two to three hammer hits to get them to go off.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.</div></div>
You apparently haven't used much Remington. I bout two boxes of Remington 158 gr SWC, a good third of them too two to three hammer hits to get them to go off.
</div></div>
And I was thinking it was my mainspring! Thanks.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've NEVER had a quality factory-made "dud". I HAVE had them in my reloads.</div></div>
You apparently haven't used much Remington. I bout two boxes of Remington 158 gr SWC, a good third of them too two to three hammer hits to get them to go off.
</div></div>
And I was thinking it was my mainspring! Thanks.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.</div></div>
Right... 'cause the DA's office is loaded with super-intelligent lawyers who know everything there is to know about cartridge components. I know a lot of these folks and the smart ones are all defense attorneys.
And the cops... one look at that primer and they know that it is wrong for that brass. Hell, I don't have that superpower. What might be drawing attention from the brass and primer is the dead body 6 feet away.
People watch CSI and assume that these forensic detectives are going to know everything there is to know about the incident. The better movie to watch is "The Usual Suspects." The cop will go into the situation and anything that points to his original hypothesis, he will follow. If it confirms his original hypothesis, he digs in. If it rejects his initial hypothesis, he ignores it.
Who remembers the actual ammo they put in a weapon?... you go to the range so much, you buy a lot. You probably bought it a long time ago.
The situations around the shooting are about 100,000 times more important than the ammo. Did you have reasonable cause to expect the situation was life threatening? How far away were you from the attacker? Were you impaired at the time of the attack? How many shots were fired? Where were you aiming?
There are a lot of critical questions that need to be answered... make of ammo is very very low on that list. People on this site are worried about the most useless crap when it comes to CCW... some people want high capacity magazines "just in case" they have to put down an angry gang of assailants.
Here, we are worried about the source of the ammo. What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because people here are worried about precisely the wrong crap when it comes to the legality of a firefight.
Guess what... they are not going to be as concerned about the ammo you used as your justification and/or provocation for opening fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.</div></div>
Right... 'cause the DA's office is loaded with super-intelligent lawyers who know everything there is to know about cartridge components. I know a lot of these folks and the smart ones are all defense attorneys.
And the cops... one look at that primer and they know that it is wrong for that brass. Hell, I don't have that superpower. What might be drawing attention from the brass and primer is the dead body 6 feet away.
People watch CSI and assume that these forensic detectives are going to know everything there is to know about the incident. The better movie to watch is "The Usual Suspects." The cop will go into the situation and anything that points to his original hypothesis, he will follow. If it confirms his original hypothesis, he digs in. If it rejects his initial hypothesis, he ignores it.
Who remembers the actual ammo they put in a weapon?... you go to the range so much, you buy a lot. You probably bought it a long time ago.
The situations around the shooting are about 100,000 times more important than the ammo. Did you have reasonable cause to expect the situation was life threatening? How far away were you from the attacker? Were you impaired at the time of the attack? How many shots were fired? Where were you aiming?
There are a lot of critical questions that need to be answered... make of ammo is very very low on that list. People on this site are worried about the most useless crap when it comes to CCW... some people want high capacity magazines "just in case" they have to put down an angry gang of assailants.
Here, we are worried about the source of the ammo. What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because people here are worried about precisely the wrong crap when it comes to the legality of a firefight.
Guess what... they are not going to be as concerned about the ammo you used as your justification and/or provocation for opening fire.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.</div></div>
Right... 'cause the DA's office is loaded with super-intelligent lawyers who know everything there is to know about cartridge components. I know a lot of these folks and the smart ones are all defense attorneys.
And the cops... one look at that primer and they know that it is wrong for that brass. Hell, I don't have that superpower. What might be drawing attention from the brass and primer is the dead body 6 feet away.
People watch CSI and assume that these forensic detectives are going to know everything there is to know about the incident. The better movie to watch is "The Usual Suspects." The cop will go into the situation and anything that points to his original hypothesis, he will follow. If it confirms his original hypothesis, he digs in. If it rejects his initial hypothesis, he ignores it.
Who remembers the actual ammo they put in a weapon?... you go to the range so much, you buy a lot. You probably bought it a long time ago.
The situations around the shooting are about 100,000 times more important than the ammo. Did you have reasonable cause to expect the situation was life threatening? How far away were you from the attacker? Were you impaired at the time of the attack? How many shots were fired? Where were you aiming?
There are a lot of critical questions that need to be answered... make of ammo is very very low on that list. People on this site are worried about the most useless crap when it comes to CCW... some people want high capacity magazines "just in case" they have to put down an angry gang of assailants.
Here, we are worried about the source of the ammo. What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because people here are worried about precisely the wrong crap when it comes to the legality of a firefight.
Guess what... they are not going to be as concerned about the ammo you used as your justification and/or provocation for opening fire. </div></div>
Wow you assume that most law officials and lawyers are pretty stupid don't you?
A police officer is not going to be picking up the ammo and see what may be out of place with it. I agree with you that is not likely at all. That is what forensics are for.
First of all the only factory ammo I have ever shot is what I use for CC.
Second of all I am just saying cut out all possibilities. Tell me when you used reloads to defend yourself and what they said about that?
You very well could be correct and the smartest man in the world. But am I taking your advice on this subject? No way!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How are they going to figure out that it is a handload? Ballistics? They will have a damaged bullet and a brass casing to go on. The manufacturer of that round is whatever it says on the brass and the bullet is whatever buller that manufacturer carries.
This is a reason not to mix brass on CCW handloads... that is about it. </div></div>
And what do you say when asked what kind of ammo was used?
You get to either lie about it, tell the truth and incriminate yourself, or plead the 5th... none of those sound appealing.
Being able to say you used exactly what local LEOs use sounds good to me. LEOs aren't out to kill people (not officially anyway), but rather to "stop the threat" - EXACTLY what you were trying to do when you shot at the bad guy.</div></div>
Right... 'cause the DA's office is loaded with super-intelligent lawyers who know everything there is to know about cartridge components. I know a lot of these folks and the smart ones are all defense attorneys.
And the cops... one look at that primer and they know that it is wrong for that brass. Hell, I don't have that superpower. What might be drawing attention from the brass and primer is the dead body 6 feet away.
People watch CSI and assume that these forensic detectives are going to know everything there is to know about the incident. The better movie to watch is "The Usual Suspects." The cop will go into the situation and anything that points to his original hypothesis, he will follow. If it confirms his original hypothesis, he digs in. If it rejects his initial hypothesis, he ignores it.
Who remembers the actual ammo they put in a weapon?... you go to the range so much, you buy a lot. You probably bought it a long time ago.
The situations around the shooting are about 100,000 times more important than the ammo. Did you have reasonable cause to expect the situation was life threatening? How far away were you from the attacker? Were you impaired at the time of the attack? How many shots were fired? Where were you aiming?
There are a lot of critical questions that need to be answered... make of ammo is very very low on that list. People on this site are worried about the most useless crap when it comes to CCW... some people want high capacity magazines "just in case" they have to put down an angry gang of assailants.
Here, we are worried about the source of the ammo. What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because people here are worried about precisely the wrong crap when it comes to the legality of a firefight.
Guess what... they are not going to be as concerned about the ammo you used as your justification and/or provocation for opening fire. </div></div>
Wow you assume that most law officials and lawyers are pretty stupid don't you?
A police officer is not going to be picking up the ammo and see what may be out of place with it. I agree with you that is not likely at all. That is what forensics are for.
First of all the only factory ammo I have ever shot is what I use for CC.
Second of all I am just saying cut out all possibilities. Tell me when you used reloads to defend yourself and what they said about that?
You very well could be correct and the smartest man in the world. But am I taking your advice on this subject? No way!
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Good evening,
I heard this story started with Massad Ayoob and it was a B.S. case that had little to do with the real argument.
The argument that using handloads suggests intent to do MORE bodily harm is ridiculous. What about carrying a freakin' pistol to the gas station in the first place? Or having a history of practicing or even competing with a handgun, that sounds like intent to me...
I carry hand-loaded 158g SWC in my .357. Do you think that sounds more deadly than "Hornady Critical Defense super-expander exploder" ammo? How about if you carry a .45 vs a .380, will the jury think you're a worse person for carrying a bigger gun?
The reason to carry handloads is 2-fold. 1) if you can load them cheap you can practice with them a lot. I wouldn't get a lot of trigger time in at $1.00 per round. 2) if your carry gun has fixed sights, it may be difficult to find an acceptable factory round to hit POA. You may have to experiment with many different combos to get your shorty carry gun to hit POA.
Good evening,
I heard this story started with Massad Ayoob and it was a B.S. case that had little to do with the real argument.
The argument that using handloads suggests intent to do MORE bodily harm is ridiculous. What about carrying a freakin' pistol to the gas station in the first place? Or having a history of practicing or even competing with a handgun, that sounds like intent to me...
I carry hand-loaded 158g SWC in my .357. Do you think that sounds more deadly than "Hornady Critical Defense super-expander exploder" ammo? How about if you carry a .45 vs a .380, will the jury think you're a worse person for carrying a bigger gun?
The reason to carry handloads is 2-fold. 1) if you can load them cheap you can practice with them a lot. I wouldn't get a lot of trigger time in at $1.00 per round. 2) if your carry gun has fixed sights, it may be difficult to find an acceptable factory round to hit POA. You may have to experiment with many different combos to get your shorty carry gun to hit POA.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldirtdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Legal ramifications if you actually have to shoot someone... </div></div>What does the type ammunition have to do with whether or not deadly force was appropriate under the circumstances?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldirtdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Legal ramifications if you actually have to shoot someone... </div></div>What does the type ammunition have to do with whether or not deadly force was appropriate under the circumstances?
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The argument that using handloads suggests intent to do MORE bodily harm is ridiculous. What about carrying a freakin' pistol to the gas station in the first place? Or having a history of practicing or even competing with a handgun, that sounds like intent to me...</div></div>
You can bet this issue will come up if there ever was a case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may have to experiment with many different combos to get your shorty carry gun to hit POA. </div></div>
The chance of that mattering is probably even lower than the officer at the scene knowing what kind of gun you're carrying. How much difference in impact at 7 yards does your carry gun have with different loads?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? </div></div>
The answer to that depends on your state's laws, but in some states, this would be completely irrelevant, because you have no such duty.
The law is complicated. Beware of what you "know." It might be wrong, and the interests at stake are not for the faint of heart.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The argument that using handloads suggests intent to do MORE bodily harm is ridiculous. What about carrying a freakin' pistol to the gas station in the first place? Or having a history of practicing or even competing with a handgun, that sounds like intent to me...</div></div>
You can bet this issue will come up if there ever was a case.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may have to experiment with many different combos to get your shorty carry gun to hit POA. </div></div>
The chance of that mattering is probably even lower than the officer at the scene knowing what kind of gun you're carrying. How much difference in impact at 7 yards does your carry gun have with different loads?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What really matters is whether or not you exhausted all other possible options before resulting to deadly fire. I don't see any threads on that... hmmm, I wonder why? </div></div>
The answer to that depends on your state's laws, but in some states, this would be completely irrelevant, because you have no such duty.
The law is complicated. Beware of what you "know." It might be wrong, and the interests at stake are not for the faint of heart.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Short story is, nobody's ever been able to give a real example or cite a case where anyone cared whether someone was shooting factory ammunition or handloads with regard to some sort of enhanced liability for shooting with a stout load. It's likely to be among the least of your, or opposing counsel's, concern.
What is of more concern is that it's much harder to reproduce what happened when there's any question as to what you actually shot. If you shoot factory ammo, ballistics tests can often accurately support what happened. If you shoot your own hand loads, there may be some question as to what your loads were, or whether you're able or motivated to accurately reproduce them.
John
Short story is, nobody's ever been able to give a real example or cite a case where anyone cared whether someone was shooting factory ammunition or handloads with regard to some sort of enhanced liability for shooting with a stout load. It's likely to be among the least of your, or opposing counsel's, concern.
What is of more concern is that it's much harder to reproduce what happened when there's any question as to what you actually shot. If you shoot factory ammo, ballistics tests can often accurately support what happened. If you shoot your own hand loads, there may be some question as to what your loads were, or whether you're able or motivated to accurately reproduce them.
John
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Just saying, i am and always will be a law abiding person. I hold myself to high standards and do my best to do the right thing and take the high road. I am curtious in every way of life, whether in traffic, business, or personal affairs. I have never had a negative experiance with any LEO.... Having said that. Every time ive been to court ive been f@&ked. I have never gone to court without being in the right. Why would you take the chance over it? All it takes is some criminals rich daddy with vengence on the brain and you are paying all you hard earned money for years... Or worse, that same senerio with charges attached.
Common, is it worth it because you were either to cheap or to stubborn to use factory ammo? Try and explain your ballistic referances on you superior ammo to your kid when they ask why they have no college fund. Be smart people. You think if you get sued that wont come up? Maybe not, but that is a hell of a maybe to bet on... Not me.
Just saying, i am and always will be a law abiding person. I hold myself to high standards and do my best to do the right thing and take the high road. I am curtious in every way of life, whether in traffic, business, or personal affairs. I have never had a negative experiance with any LEO.... Having said that. Every time ive been to court ive been f@&ked. I have never gone to court without being in the right. Why would you take the chance over it? All it takes is some criminals rich daddy with vengence on the brain and you are paying all you hard earned money for years... Or worse, that same senerio with charges attached.
Common, is it worth it because you were either to cheap or to stubborn to use factory ammo? Try and explain your ballistic referances on you superior ammo to your kid when they ask why they have no college fund. Be smart people. You think if you get sued that wont come up? Maybe not, but that is a hell of a maybe to bet on... Not me.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
This argument has way too many flaws and I believe that most are the fault of the CSI type crime shows.
First, most police officers that I know are NOT gun enthusiasts. They are police officers because they feel the need to serve the community, family pride, whatever. Give them 4 different .45 cal 230 gr. projectiles and I'll bet them 8/10 cannot identify them, this included forensics.
This brings me to forensics. I'm not saying that if you tasked a forensics team with determining the bullet type, powder type & weight, and if it is factory loaded or not that they would fail. BUT, if the police show up at a self defense shooting and you are there with "the weapon" in hand, I'll bet that forensics isn't even involved in the case. You call police, police show up, you hand them weapon involved in shooting, Period. Forensics is busy matching a dirty gun picked up off the streets from a hood to see if it matches any murders on the books. Now if you are from Happy Town where there is no such thing as a daily murder this might be a different story.
Also, we are assuming that any handload is "more deadly" than factory loads. Like has already been mentioned above, what if someone handloads to get thier pistol to shoot to POA. So if the prosecuting attorney "says" that this pistol ammo is more powerful don't you think that your attorney ,just maybe, would like to see proof that it is? Now the prosecuting attorney is going to hire a ballistics specialist to shoot gelatin to see the penetration of said handloads? Remember, this is all for a case where the weapon used was handed to the responding police officer at the scene.
As for the ensuing civil case filed by the fuck-ups family. Well I live in a state where I'm allowed to defend myself from harm in my home or anywhere that I'm legally allowed to be. This included protection from civil suits. If you live in a state where this isn't the case I would imagine that the arguments above are possible from a scumbag attorney working for the fuck-ups family and all bets are off. One thing is for sure, you should be more concerned about changing the laws in your state or moving, than this argument.
This argument has way too many flaws and I believe that most are the fault of the CSI type crime shows.
First, most police officers that I know are NOT gun enthusiasts. They are police officers because they feel the need to serve the community, family pride, whatever. Give them 4 different .45 cal 230 gr. projectiles and I'll bet them 8/10 cannot identify them, this included forensics.
This brings me to forensics. I'm not saying that if you tasked a forensics team with determining the bullet type, powder type & weight, and if it is factory loaded or not that they would fail. BUT, if the police show up at a self defense shooting and you are there with "the weapon" in hand, I'll bet that forensics isn't even involved in the case. You call police, police show up, you hand them weapon involved in shooting, Period. Forensics is busy matching a dirty gun picked up off the streets from a hood to see if it matches any murders on the books. Now if you are from Happy Town where there is no such thing as a daily murder this might be a different story.
Also, we are assuming that any handload is "more deadly" than factory loads. Like has already been mentioned above, what if someone handloads to get thier pistol to shoot to POA. So if the prosecuting attorney "says" that this pistol ammo is more powerful don't you think that your attorney ,just maybe, would like to see proof that it is? Now the prosecuting attorney is going to hire a ballistics specialist to shoot gelatin to see the penetration of said handloads? Remember, this is all for a case where the weapon used was handed to the responding police officer at the scene.
As for the ensuing civil case filed by the fuck-ups family. Well I live in a state where I'm allowed to defend myself from harm in my home or anywhere that I'm legally allowed to be. This included protection from civil suits. If you live in a state where this isn't the case I would imagine that the arguments above are possible from a scumbag attorney working for the fuck-ups family and all bets are off. One thing is for sure, you should be more concerned about changing the laws in your state or moving, than this argument.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Legally speaking you're safest to select a firearm that is issued by a local or state agency (maybe even national), and the ammunition to match. Now CCW and pistols are heavily regulated here in Aust, but i'd still go with whatever compact is issued to police here (i'm pretty sure it's some kind of Glock), and the ammunition to match.
Any attempt for a conviction/settlement on the grounds of being overgunned can be quashed as the prosecution wouldn't want to open the floodgates for every dead banger's baby mumma to start suing the local PD because daddy thought it'd make him look tough to point his stick at a passing patrol car when he thought they weren't looking.
Legally speaking you're safest to select a firearm that is issued by a local or state agency (maybe even national), and the ammunition to match. Now CCW and pistols are heavily regulated here in Aust, but i'd still go with whatever compact is issued to police here (i'm pretty sure it's some kind of Glock), and the ammunition to match.
Any attempt for a conviction/settlement on the grounds of being overgunned can be quashed as the prosecution wouldn't want to open the floodgates for every dead banger's baby mumma to start suing the local PD because daddy thought it'd make him look tough to point his stick at a passing patrol car when he thought they weren't looking.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any attempt for a conviction/settlement on the grounds of being overgunned can be quashed as the prosecution wouldn't want to open the floodgates for every dead banger's baby mumma to start suing the local PD because daddy thought it'd make him look tough to point his stick at a passing patrol car when he thought they weren't looking. </div></div>
Uh, no. The police have qualified immunity. You don't, at least not in this country.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remoah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any attempt for a conviction/settlement on the grounds of being overgunned can be quashed as the prosecution wouldn't want to open the floodgates for every dead banger's baby mumma to start suing the local PD because daddy thought it'd make him look tough to point his stick at a passing patrol car when he thought they weren't looking. </div></div>
Uh, no. The police have qualified immunity. You don't, at least not in this country.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<span style="font-weight: bold">Disclaimer: </span>I am not a Lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet. Nothing I post should be construed as legal advice.
There are several things you need to consider when selecting ammunition:
1. Will it work?
I am a very careful reloader. I double check my steps. I weigh check my final match ammo. I rarely have any problems. HOWEVER, I can't tell you how often I have seen other reloaders have problems with their ammunition. It's just so much easier to tell a student "don't do it" than it is to sit and confirm that they are an extremely competent reloader.
2. Criminal Defense.
On the odd chance that the Grand Jury in your jurisdiction hands down an indictment on your shooting and you go to trial, EVERYTHING you did will be attacked. This may include your weapon choice, how you carried it and even the ammunition involved. How it's attacked will depend on how well the attorneys know the political climate and the jury makeup.
3. Civil Defense.
In the event that you do not live in a jurisdiction with laws preventing lawsuits stemming from justified shootings, you will most likely be sued by the criminal (cause he's NOT a victim) or his family in the event of his demise. They will paint him as a pillar of society and a victim of your bloodlust. I have not seen a case yet the hinged on ammo selection, but it is one more thing they can pick at in front of the judge or jury.
Because of these issues, I use a mainstream handgun and LE ammunition. Just about any JHP load in 9mm .40S&W or .45ACP is used by one agency or another. Call the manufacturer. Find out who uses it and keep it in your records. The key is you need to know it BEFORE a shoot. You can't call they AFTER and then use that as a reason you carried the bullet BEFORE the shoot. When asked in court why you chose that round you can simply say "XX PD carries it, so I figured it would work".
Anytime you are involved in something that you may have to defend in court, it's about minimizing the talking points for the opposition. Much of what I do on the street is done in a manner that I can defend piece by piece when I am facing off with a defense attorney later.
This is one of the reasons I still have a box of "Black Talons" in .45ACP that have never been loaded into a magazine and why the ammo in my off-duty pistol is the same as in my duty pistol.
There is nothing "wrong" with carrying handloads for defense. You just have to have a prior plan on how you are going to deal with it in a courtroom. I prefer to just side-step the whole issue by using factory ammunition.
Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
<span style="font-weight: bold">REMEMBER:</span>
OUR culture is a little different from the general public. If I walk into a buddies man-cave and see twenty pounds of powder and a reloading bench, I just assume that he shoots a lot. If he has guns hanging on the wall, I just marvel at his collection.
If Sally Soccer Mom was standing there she would probably assume he was a nut who was planning a school or workplace shooting because no one NEEDS that many guns or that much ammunition.
Sally Soccer Mom is more likely to be sitting on your Jury than I am. She is the one that will try to convince the rest of the Jurors that it's their civic duty to protect the children from crazies like you.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Disclaimer: </span>I am not a Lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet. Nothing I post should be construed as legal advice.
There are several things you need to consider when selecting ammunition:
1. Will it work?
I am a very careful reloader. I double check my steps. I weigh check my final match ammo. I rarely have any problems. HOWEVER, I can't tell you how often I have seen other reloaders have problems with their ammunition. It's just so much easier to tell a student "don't do it" than it is to sit and confirm that they are an extremely competent reloader.
2. Criminal Defense.
On the odd chance that the Grand Jury in your jurisdiction hands down an indictment on your shooting and you go to trial, EVERYTHING you did will be attacked. This may include your weapon choice, how you carried it and even the ammunition involved. How it's attacked will depend on how well the attorneys know the political climate and the jury makeup.
3. Civil Defense.
In the event that you do not live in a jurisdiction with laws preventing lawsuits stemming from justified shootings, you will most likely be sued by the criminal (cause he's NOT a victim) or his family in the event of his demise. They will paint him as a pillar of society and a victim of your bloodlust. I have not seen a case yet the hinged on ammo selection, but it is one more thing they can pick at in front of the judge or jury.
Because of these issues, I use a mainstream handgun and LE ammunition. Just about any JHP load in 9mm .40S&W or .45ACP is used by one agency or another. Call the manufacturer. Find out who uses it and keep it in your records. The key is you need to know it BEFORE a shoot. You can't call they AFTER and then use that as a reason you carried the bullet BEFORE the shoot. When asked in court why you chose that round you can simply say "XX PD carries it, so I figured it would work".
Anytime you are involved in something that you may have to defend in court, it's about minimizing the talking points for the opposition. Much of what I do on the street is done in a manner that I can defend piece by piece when I am facing off with a defense attorney later.
This is one of the reasons I still have a box of "Black Talons" in .45ACP that have never been loaded into a magazine and why the ammo in my off-duty pistol is the same as in my duty pistol.
There is nothing "wrong" with carrying handloads for defense. You just have to have a prior plan on how you are going to deal with it in a courtroom. I prefer to just side-step the whole issue by using factory ammunition.
Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
<span style="font-weight: bold">REMEMBER:</span>
OUR culture is a little different from the general public. If I walk into a buddies man-cave and see twenty pounds of powder and a reloading bench, I just assume that he shoots a lot. If he has guns hanging on the wall, I just marvel at his collection.
If Sally Soccer Mom was standing there she would probably assume he was a nut who was planning a school or workplace shooting because no one NEEDS that many guns or that much ammunition.
Sally Soccer Mom is more likely to be sitting on your Jury than I am. She is the one that will try to convince the rest of the Jurors that it's their civic duty to protect the children from crazies like you.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
</div></div>
This is a great idea! I would have never thought of that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
</div></div>
This is a great idea! I would have never thought of that.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
I mostly carry handloads in my 10mm Auto.
I also mostly worry about four legged creatures instead of two legged creatures. I also live in Wyoming, and do not have to worry about much silliness in court if I ever am forced to shoot in self defense.
I mostly carry handloads in my 10mm Auto.
I also mostly worry about four legged creatures instead of two legged creatures. I also live in Wyoming, and do not have to worry about much silliness in court if I ever am forced to shoot in self defense.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Has there ever been a case where a criminal (i.e. blatant criminal activity, drive by, murder, etc) used hand loads and the fact that they used hand loads was brought up in court?
I use factory rounds myself. But be assured if I needed to I'd use my reloads. I'll worry about the rest of the shit after the fact. And the bullet you used is the least of the isssues at that point.
Dave
Has there ever been a case where a criminal (i.e. blatant criminal activity, drive by, murder, etc) used hand loads and the fact that they used hand loads was brought up in court?
I use factory rounds myself. But be assured if I needed to I'd use my reloads. I'll worry about the rest of the shit after the fact. And the bullet you used is the least of the isssues at that point.
Dave
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
IIRC, this actually came up in PA a while ago (like 20 years ago) and they did try to the whole "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for him, rabble rabble rabble."
I'll call my buddy back home and see if he remembers the case.
IIRC, this actually came up in PA a while ago (like 20 years ago) and they did try to the whole "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for him, rabble rabble rabble."
I'll call my buddy back home and see if he remembers the case.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has there ever been a case where a criminal (i.e. blatant criminal activity, drive by, murder, etc) used hand loads and the fact that they used hand loads was brought up in court?</div></div>
I would say you would be hard pressed to find such a thing. Most of the criminal firearms activity I have been involved in investigating, charging or testifying on has been with stolen or other illegally acquire/possessed weapons. In that case they usually just send someone to the local wally world to buy some ammo. If handloads were used, then they were more than likely in the weapon when it was stolen. Since it's pretty difficult for a non-reloader to look at ammo and tell if it's factory or handloaded I would say it's a fact that doesn't get cataloged often.
Think about it from a jurors standpoint. If a guy just used a .357 to blow his girlfriend away for cheating...does it make a difference if it was ball or jhp? Factory or handload? Not really.
However in a defensive shooting where it's not clear cut wrongdoing or in a civil suit where they are attempting to show malice, then it could matter to the jury.
I really wish I had the resources to compile this type of data, but without a Lexus Nexus account it's a huge pain. Even with an account its a pain.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has there ever been a case where a criminal (i.e. blatant criminal activity, drive by, murder, etc) used hand loads and the fact that they used hand loads was brought up in court?</div></div>
I would say you would be hard pressed to find such a thing. Most of the criminal firearms activity I have been involved in investigating, charging or testifying on has been with stolen or other illegally acquire/possessed weapons. In that case they usually just send someone to the local wally world to buy some ammo. If handloads were used, then they were more than likely in the weapon when it was stolen. Since it's pretty difficult for a non-reloader to look at ammo and tell if it's factory or handloaded I would say it's a fact that doesn't get cataloged often.
Think about it from a jurors standpoint. If a guy just used a .357 to blow his girlfriend away for cheating...does it make a difference if it was ball or jhp? Factory or handload? Not really.
However in a defensive shooting where it's not clear cut wrongdoing or in a civil suit where they are attempting to show malice, then it could matter to the jury.
I really wish I had the resources to compile this type of data, but without a Lexus Nexus account it's a huge pain. Even with an account its a pain.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
I seriously would like to know what the appeal is for useing handloads in a ccw is? What is so important you'd take the risk? I understand a little bit. Im proud of my handloads too but not enough to risk even the slightest chance of it being used against me. I know its stupid that we even need to worry but this is the same country that awarded a million dollars to a person who spilled their own cup of coffe on themselves.
I seriously would like to know what the appeal is for useing handloads in a ccw is? What is so important you'd take the risk? I understand a little bit. Im proud of my handloads too but not enough to risk even the slightest chance of it being used against me. I know its stupid that we even need to worry but this is the same country that awarded a million dollars to a person who spilled their own cup of coffe on themselves.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IIRC, this actually came up in PA a while ago (like 20 years ago) and they did try to the whole "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for him, rabble rabble rabble."
I'll call my buddy back home and see if he remembers the case. </div></div>
And this is how they all go. 'My buddy knows the case.' Never first hand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
</div></div>
This is a great idea! I would have never thought of that. </div></div>
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.
The only way to be sure there is powder in your cartridge is to put it there yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt. 0811</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I seriously would like to know what the appeal is for useing handloads in a ccw is? What is so important you'd take the risk? I understand a little bit. Im proud of my handloads too but not enough to risk even the slightest chance of it being used against me. I know its stupid that we even need to worry but this is the same country that awarded a million dollars to a person who spilled their own cup of coffe on themselves. </div></div>
That jury verdict was overturned and the case was settled by the parties.
Everyone seems to think they know everything when it comes to lawsuits, but yet these ridiculous examples that exist far outside of reality are always the cited "truth."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IIRC, this actually came up in PA a while ago (like 20 years ago) and they did try to the whole "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for him, rabble rabble rabble."
I'll call my buddy back home and see if he remembers the case. </div></div>
And this is how they all go. 'My buddy knows the case.' Never first hand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having said that, I WOULD highly recommend that anyone using factory ammunition invest in a cheap reloading scale and weigh their ammunition. Machines do screw up once in awhile. We have had squibs in factory defensive ammo. A squib effectively turns a handgun into a club or a bomb. Don't be "that guy". Spend a couple bucks and make sure all your factory ammo has a powder charge and no flipped primers.
</div></div>
This is a great idea! I would have never thought of that. </div></div>
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.
The only way to be sure there is powder in your cartridge is to put it there yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt. 0811</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I seriously would like to know what the appeal is for useing handloads in a ccw is? What is so important you'd take the risk? I understand a little bit. Im proud of my handloads too but not enough to risk even the slightest chance of it being used against me. I know its stupid that we even need to worry but this is the same country that awarded a million dollars to a person who spilled their own cup of coffe on themselves. </div></div>
That jury verdict was overturned and the case was settled by the parties.
Everyone seems to think they know everything when it comes to lawsuits, but yet these ridiculous examples that exist far outside of reality are always the cited "truth."
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
People have really over blown this issue. If you shoot someone and end up in litigation the prosecuting attorney has one job. Win his case, and this is includes making you look bad at all cost. So yes a attorney can try the handload argument. However an educated person can easily disprove this agrement. So pick you battle, either way I don't think it is going be a make or break thing in a civil case.
People have really over blown this issue. If you shoot someone and end up in litigation the prosecuting attorney has one job. Win his case, and this is includes making you look bad at all cost. So yes a attorney can try the handload argument. However an educated person can easily disprove this agrement. So pick you battle, either way I don't think it is going be a make or break thing in a civil case.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People have really over blown this issue. If you shoot someone and end up in litigation the prosecuting attorney has one job. Win his case, and this is includes making you look bad at all cost. So yes a attorney can try the handload argument. However an educated person can easily disprove this agrement. So pick you battle, either way I don't think it is going be a make or break thing in a civil case. </div></div>
This is not true, either. Prosecutors are ethically bound to seek justice for society, NOT simply to win the case "at all cost." Prosecutors can and have lost their licenses for acting in this manner. See, e.g., the Duke lacrosse rape case, where the prosecutor lost his license to practice law--indefinitely--for that type of rogue behavior. Books are full of these sorts of ethics hearings and that exact result. Don't delude yourself into believing that these ethical rules aren't taken seriously.
It's also not clear that introducing evidence of the type of ammunition would even be admissible at all, but that would depend on more facts than we'll ever have here. I could name a number of theories about why it wouldn't be admissible at all, but it would depend on the charge, among other things.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People have really over blown this issue. If you shoot someone and end up in litigation the prosecuting attorney has one job. Win his case, and this is includes making you look bad at all cost. So yes a attorney can try the handload argument. However an educated person can easily disprove this agrement. So pick you battle, either way I don't think it is going be a make or break thing in a civil case. </div></div>
This is not true, either. Prosecutors are ethically bound to seek justice for society, NOT simply to win the case "at all cost." Prosecutors can and have lost their licenses for acting in this manner. See, e.g., the Duke lacrosse rape case, where the prosecutor lost his license to practice law--indefinitely--for that type of rogue behavior. Books are full of these sorts of ethics hearings and that exact result. Don't delude yourself into believing that these ethical rules aren't taken seriously.
It's also not clear that introducing evidence of the type of ammunition would even be admissible at all, but that would depend on more facts than we'll ever have here. I could name a number of theories about why it wouldn't be admissible at all, but it would depend on the charge, among other things.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
Funny you say that. Attorney are supposed to be bound by ethics. Just as they are not supposed to be able do many other things in court. But I can also give you examples of prosecuting attorney doing all kinds of thing they weren't supposed to in order aid their case.
Funny you say that. Attorney are supposed to be bound by ethics. Just as they are not supposed to be able do many other things in court. But I can also give you examples of prosecuting attorney doing all kinds of thing they weren't supposed to in order aid their case.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny you say that. Attorney are supposed to be bound by ethics. Just as they are not supposed to be able do many other things in court. But I can also give you examples of prosecuting attorney doing all kinds of thing they weren't supposed to in order aid their case. </div></div>
Then you should report them. And in fact, if you were a member of the bar, you'd be duty-bound to report them. Unethical conduct undermines the criminal process for all of us, including us who are law-abiding and have no run-ins with the law.
Attorneys are not "supposed to be bound"--they ARE bound. And there are special rules that apply to prosecutors above and beyond those which apply to other attorneys. There's an entire section of the model rules dedicated to just this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny you say that. Attorney are supposed to be bound by ethics. Just as they are not supposed to be able do many other things in court. But I can also give you examples of prosecuting attorney doing all kinds of thing they weren't supposed to in order aid their case. </div></div>
Then you should report them. And in fact, if you were a member of the bar, you'd be duty-bound to report them. Unethical conduct undermines the criminal process for all of us, including us who are law-abiding and have no run-ins with the law.
Attorneys are not "supposed to be bound"--they ARE bound. And there are special rules that apply to prosecutors above and beyond those which apply to other attorneys. There's an entire section of the model rules dedicated to just this.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
I talked with my wife about this. She was an ID Forensics Tech for a Southern fairly violent town for 5 yrs in the 90s. She was personally involved in ~60 murder cases over those 5 yrs. The work included documenting the crime scene, locating spent casings, determining angles and number of people involved, etc. She said ballistics were only interested in matching the fired bullet with the lands and grooves in the suspect weapon. She did not remember one DA meeting where the question was asked about handload vs factory load from ballistics.
It doesn't mean an ambitious prosecuting attorney would not try the angle to see if he could get it to work.
I carry factory loads exclusively to compensate for a reliability deficiency in my garage.
And Lonewolf is spot on about how we are perceived. My card carrying communist brother-in-law has told my seven yr old nephews that "Uncle Whiskey is crazy" because I have guns. I found out because one of them asked me "why, does my Daddy think you are so crazy?" He probably deserves a whole thread on his own, so don't get me started.
I talked with my wife about this. She was an ID Forensics Tech for a Southern fairly violent town for 5 yrs in the 90s. She was personally involved in ~60 murder cases over those 5 yrs. The work included documenting the crime scene, locating spent casings, determining angles and number of people involved, etc. She said ballistics were only interested in matching the fired bullet with the lands and grooves in the suspect weapon. She did not remember one DA meeting where the question was asked about handload vs factory load from ballistics.
It doesn't mean an ambitious prosecuting attorney would not try the angle to see if he could get it to work.
I carry factory loads exclusively to compensate for a reliability deficiency in my garage.
And Lonewolf is spot on about how we are perceived. My card carrying communist brother-in-law has told my seven yr old nephews that "Uncle Whiskey is crazy" because I have guns. I found out because one of them asked me "why, does my Daddy think you are so crazy?" He probably deserves a whole thread on his own, so don't get me started.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Prosecutors can and have lost their licenses for acting in this manner. See, e.g., the Duke lacrosse rape case, where the prosecutor lost his license to practice law--indefinitely--for that type of rogue behavior. Books are full of these sorts of ethics hearings and that exact result. Don't delude yourself into believing that these ethical rules aren't taken seriously.
</div></div>
Sure, and it helps to have rich parents and plenty of media attention. Don't delude yourself into thinking it doesn't happen often There are plenty of crooked prosecutors, attorneys and judges just like any other arena of humanity. The insider good ole boy network of the judicial branch is only superceded by the legislative branch. There are of course the vast majority very honest and ethical but just because the BAR binds them to be ethical doesn't mean all of them respect it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Prosecutors can and have lost their licenses for acting in this manner. See, e.g., the Duke lacrosse rape case, where the prosecutor lost his license to practice law--indefinitely--for that type of rogue behavior. Books are full of these sorts of ethics hearings and that exact result. Don't delude yourself into believing that these ethical rules aren't taken seriously.
</div></div>
Sure, and it helps to have rich parents and plenty of media attention. Don't delude yourself into thinking it doesn't happen often There are plenty of crooked prosecutors, attorneys and judges just like any other arena of humanity. The insider good ole boy network of the judicial branch is only superceded by the legislative branch. There are of course the vast majority very honest and ethical but just because the BAR binds them to be ethical doesn't mean all of them respect it.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.</div></div>
Looks like I am going to have to do a little demonstration.
Remember I am not looking for an "accurate" powder charge. I am just making sure that there IS a powder charge so the bullet leaves the barrel.
May have to pulldown some ammo tomorrow.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.</div></div>
Looks like I am going to have to do a little demonstration.
Remember I am not looking for an "accurate" powder charge. I am just making sure that there IS a powder charge so the bullet leaves the barrel.
May have to pulldown some ammo tomorrow.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I talked with my wife about this. She was an ID Forensics Tech for a Southern fairly violent town for 5 yrs in the 90s. She was personally involved in ~60 murder cases over those 5 yrs. The work included documenting the crime scene, locating spent casings, determining angles and number of people involved, etc. She said ballistics were only interested in matching the fired bullet with the lands and grooves in the suspect weapon. She did not remember one DA meeting where the question was asked about handload vs factory load from ballistics.</div></div>
Thank you very much sir!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I talked with my wife about this. She was an ID Forensics Tech for a Southern fairly violent town for 5 yrs in the 90s. She was personally involved in ~60 murder cases over those 5 yrs. The work included documenting the crime scene, locating spent casings, determining angles and number of people involved, etc. She said ballistics were only interested in matching the fired bullet with the lands and grooves in the suspect weapon. She did not remember one DA meeting where the question was asked about handload vs factory load from ballistics.</div></div>
Thank you very much sir!
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.</div></div>
Looks like I am going to have to do a little demonstration.
Remember I am not looking for an "accurate" powder charge. I am just making sure that there IS a powder charge so the bullet leaves the barrel.
May have to pulldown some ammo tomorrow. </div></div>
It still won't work. The powder charge in a round of pistol ammo is 4-10 grains or so, not enough to notice. The variation in the weight of the brass, bullet, and powder charge is enough that you won't be able to tell the difference even between no charge, some charge, and a full charge.
The only way to assure that there is powder in a case is to look into it and visually see that powder is there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Too bad it won't work. There is enough variation in the weight of the other components that weighing a cartridge won't tell you anything.</div></div>
Looks like I am going to have to do a little demonstration.
Remember I am not looking for an "accurate" powder charge. I am just making sure that there IS a powder charge so the bullet leaves the barrel.
May have to pulldown some ammo tomorrow. </div></div>
It still won't work. The powder charge in a round of pistol ammo is 4-10 grains or so, not enough to notice. The variation in the weight of the brass, bullet, and powder charge is enough that you won't be able to tell the difference even between no charge, some charge, and a full charge.
The only way to assure that there is powder in a case is to look into it and visually see that powder is there.
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
"The only way to be sure there is powder in your cartridge is to put it there yourself."
^^^This sounds like a good defence for carrying handloads
"The only way to be sure there is powder in your cartridge is to put it there yourself."
^^^This sounds like a good defence for carrying handloads
Re: Why not ccw with hand loads
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D.A.T.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Self Defense ammo has flash suppresent added so you dont blind yourself.
</div></div>
Seriously? (not being a smart ass, sorry if it comes off that way) I've never heard that before. Do you happen to know what they use and what kind of effect, if any, it has on powder burn rates?
*edit* if that was a joke, ya I fell for it hook, line and sinker
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D.A.T.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Self Defense ammo has flash suppresent added so you dont blind yourself.
</div></div>
Seriously? (not being a smart ass, sorry if it comes off that way) I've never heard that before. Do you happen to know what they use and what kind of effect, if any, it has on powder burn rates?
*edit* if that was a joke, ya I fell for it hook, line and sinker
