Hart Rifle Barrels is nearby to me and I like buying local, so here's the question...
Versus a Bartlein, Kreiger or other solid makers, is Hart in the same league?
Versus a Bartlein, Kreiger or other solid makers, is Hart in the same league?
- Thread starter Guy Montag
- Start date
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Yes. Hart is a great barrel. I have one in 6.5x47L and its an amazing barrel. I will buy another once I need one.
Yes. Hart is a great barrel. I have one in 6.5x47L and its an amazing barrel. I will buy another once I need one.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I would say yes, I have had Hart, Kreiger, Bartlein, and Broughton barrels on various rifles and Hart is in the same league with them for sure. My Harts have always been scary accurate.
I would say yes, I have had Hart, Kreiger, Bartlein, and Broughton barrels on various rifles and Hart is in the same league with them for sure. My Harts have always been scary accurate.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I've never seen any evidence that says other than that Hart, Krieger, Bartline, Brux or Rock Creek are all os similar high quality.
If it's available, buy it, if you have to order, pick the one you like.
I've never seen any evidence that says other than that Hart, Krieger, Bartline, Brux or Rock Creek are all os similar high quality.
If it's available, buy it, if you have to order, pick the one you like.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Thanks for the info guys, it's most appreciated. I'm ordering a Hart.
Thanks for the info guys, it's most appreciated. I'm ordering a Hart.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Harts are fine barrels but Kriegers have been winning most of the big time B/R matches lately.
Harts are fine barrels but Kriegers have been winning most of the big time B/R matches lately.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I have all three, all in .30 caliber range. They are all great accuracy wise. The one thing I did notice was when I finally did have to clean the Bartlein, the patches seemed to run through smoother and it seemed to hold less copper than the other two. I personally would take the Bartlein 1st, Krieger 2nd and then the Hart, but that's just me.
I have all three, all in .30 caliber range. They are all great accuracy wise. The one thing I did notice was when I finally did have to clean the Bartlein, the patches seemed to run through smoother and it seemed to hold less copper than the other two. I personally would take the Bartlein 1st, Krieger 2nd and then the Hart, but that's just me.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I agree with N8, except that I will never buy a Kreiger Chrome Molly barrel again. They were great for years, but the last few I have had are not lapped and copper fowling is so bad they look like a new penny after a few shots. Worst I have ever seen bar none. The SS barrels are still as good as any.
Richard
I agree with N8, except that I will never buy a Kreiger Chrome Molly barrel again. They were great for years, but the last few I have had are not lapped and copper fowling is so bad they look like a new penny after a few shots. Worst I have ever seen bar none. The SS barrels are still as good as any.
Richard
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
http://www.international-benchrest.com/
Check out the equipment list of who's winning.
Hart barrels have an enviable reputation. I have one in 30-06AI on a Darrel Holland built rifle. One of the most accurate rifles I've ever fired.
Cheers!
http://www.international-benchrest.com/
Check out the equipment list of who's winning.
Hart barrels have an enviable reputation. I have one in 30-06AI on a Darrel Holland built rifle. One of the most accurate rifles I've ever fired.
Cheers!
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
While I love my Hart barrel now, I have drank the coolaid and will only be ordering cut rifled barrels from now on. Not saying there is anything wrong with button rifled barrels just that I am switching over. Accuracy wise I cannot say there is a difference between my Hart or the Brux I have.
While I love my Hart barrel now, I have drank the coolaid and will only be ordering cut rifled barrels from now on. Not saying there is anything wrong with button rifled barrels just that I am switching over. Accuracy wise I cannot say there is a difference between my Hart or the Brux I have.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Getting ready to start my first bolt gun build and EVERYTHING has crazy production wait times. Checked both Krieger and Bartlein and their ship dates are 4 to 6 months out. Same holds true with the action I am looking at. The only thing that I can get in any reasonable time is the stock. By time the rest of the components come in, I will be wound pretty tight. Don't know if I can hold out that long......lol
Getting ready to start my first bolt gun build and EVERYTHING has crazy production wait times. Checked both Krieger and Bartlein and their ship dates are 4 to 6 months out. Same holds true with the action I am looking at. The only thing that I can get in any reasonable time is the stock. By time the rest of the components come in, I will be wound pretty tight. Don't know if I can hold out that long......lol
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
OBERMEYER.......
BILL LARSON
OBERMEYER.......
BILL LARSON
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Do you have a preference between button or cut? I was starting to lean solidly towards cut barrels but now that my new pac-nor 223 AI is shooting really well I wouldn't be afraid to buy another button barrel either.
The important thing to me is finding a barrel maker and a gunsmith that work well together if there's a problem.
Bb
Do you have a preference between button or cut? I was starting to lean solidly towards cut barrels but now that my new pac-nor 223 AI is shooting really well I wouldn't be afraid to buy another button barrel either.
The important thing to me is finding a barrel maker and a gunsmith that work well together if there's a problem.
Bb
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Mwilkins check out bugholes here on the hide, he stocks barrels from a hand full of company's.
Mwilkins check out bugholes here on the hide, he stocks barrels from a hand full of company's.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Thanks for the heads up rj. Will definitely look into what he may have in stock.
Thanks for the heads up rj. Will definitely look into what he may have in stock.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before.
I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
My Bartlein is VERY easy to clean and superbly accurate...JaxOps
...three (3) rounds at 100 yards...(its all I had with me that day, sorry)
My Bartlein is VERY easy to clean and superbly accurate...JaxOps
...three (3) rounds at 100 yards...(its all I had with me that day, sorry)
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike4764</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before. </div></div>
Have you looked at the bore with a scope yet? It's possible you have a burr in the barrel.
At any rate, I find it difficult to believe that your problem is a result of button rifling in general or that switching to a cut rifled barrel will provide a solution. Why not just let Hart swap barrels for you? Harts won enough matches that I would give using one a second thought.
To go back to the OP - lots and lots of benchrest matches have been won using Hart barrels. They were particularly well known for their 30 cal barrels at one time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike4764</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before. </div></div>
Have you looked at the bore with a scope yet? It's possible you have a burr in the barrel.
At any rate, I find it difficult to believe that your problem is a result of button rifling in general or that switching to a cut rifled barrel will provide a solution. Why not just let Hart swap barrels for you? Harts won enough matches that I would give using one a second thought.
To go back to the OP - lots and lots of benchrest matches have been won using Hart barrels. They were particularly well known for their 30 cal barrels at one time.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Heard no one mention lilja barrels, mine shoot very well.
Heard no one mention lilja barrels, mine shoot very well.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I have a Hart and a rock creek. I cannot say enough about the Rock creek. It is crazy accurate and easy to clean. I will buy another one!!
I have a Hart and a rock creek. I cannot say enough about the Rock creek. It is crazy accurate and easy to clean. I will buy another one!!
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I am currently using Kreiger and Bartlein. They shoot equally well.
They were both chambered with the same reamer so probably a good comparison.
I am currently using Kreiger and Bartlein. They shoot equally well.
They were both chambered with the same reamer so probably a good comparison.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> OBERMEYER.......
BILL LARSON </div></div>
Anybody using these? You rarely see them...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> OBERMEYER.......
BILL LARSON </div></div>
Anybody using these? You rarely see them...
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I have a barrel from Boots, and it shot fine. For a long time his barrels were dam near impossible to get. Boots taught a lot of the current builders how to do what they do.
If my memory is correct, he developed the 5R concept. I would put him equal to Kreiger or Bartlein (my 2 go-to barrel makers) when it comes to cut-rifled barrels (I can't speak to Rock, as I've never used one)
Jeffvn
I have a barrel from Boots, and it shot fine. For a long time his barrels were dam near impossible to get. Boots taught a lot of the current builders how to do what they do.
If my memory is correct, he developed the 5R concept. I would put him equal to Kreiger or Bartlein (my 2 go-to barrel makers) when it comes to cut-rifled barrels (I can't speak to Rock, as I've never used one)
Jeffvn
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Jeff is rite.... Obermeyer barrels can be hard to get.... he does alot of goverment work.... test barrls for other countries too.
Procurment tip:when you see him at a match... order a barrel.... I`ve ordered on Sunday... got barrel that Friday....
he has a soft spot for those who compete...
Lucky for us.... he has trained/helped most barrel makers we have today.... otherwise they would be a real long lead time....
barrel maker/gunsmith/competitor...also concieved and deveoped the 338 LM....
bill larson
Jeff is rite.... Obermeyer barrels can be hard to get.... he does alot of goverment work.... test barrls for other countries too.
Procurment tip:when you see him at a match... order a barrel.... I`ve ordered on Sunday... got barrel that Friday....
he has a soft spot for those who compete...
Lucky for us.... he has trained/helped most barrel makers we have today.... otherwise they would be a real long lead time....
barrel maker/gunsmith/competitor...also concieved and deveoped the 338 LM....
bill larson
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shanksalot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Hart and a rock creek. I cannot say enough about the Rock creek. It is crazy accurate and easy to clean. I will buy another one!!</div></div> I like the hart also,BTW. Slight edge to Rock Creek.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shanksalot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a Hart and a rock creek. I cannot say enough about the Rock creek. It is crazy accurate and easy to clean. I will buy another one!!</div></div> I like the hart also,BTW. Slight edge to Rock Creek.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I have been told this before or maybe I read it on 6mmbr.com. Anyways, if you pick a top barrel maker I have heard good about all three of them you mentioned then your good to go. Whats more important is who and how it gets chambered. Good luck with your barrel.
I have been told this before or maybe I read it on 6mmbr.com. Anyways, if you pick a top barrel maker I have heard good about all three of them you mentioned then your good to go. Whats more important is who and how it gets chambered. Good luck with your barrel.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
I dont believe that is necessarily the case. Why do you think so? How is one process more exact that the other? I belive both are lapped finishes, so wouldnt that be the limiting factor?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
I dont believe that is necessarily the case. Why do you think so? How is one process more exact that the other? I belive both are lapped finishes, so wouldnt that be the limiting factor?
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike4764</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before. </div></div>
Why wouldn't you just return the barrel to them(Hart) and get one that doesn't foul???? Moly may help a tad but, I would question whether its going to make it shoot any better??? Id rather get a good barrel to start with then burn up ammmo on one that you know fouls easily, especially since they offered to fix it.....Either way I'm curious what you come up with
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike4764</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just built a .284 with a Hart barrel. I have nothing but copper fouling problems. The first 5 rounds are great then accuracy goes way south. By round 8 my group opens to 3" or more at 100 yards. I called Hart and explained the problem. They were helpfull and said to send it back but I am keeping it to try to get it to shoot. I have 100 rounds throught it now and will be trying moly to see if it helps. If not it will be removed and replaced with a cut rifled barrel. I have never had a barrel foul this bad before. </div></div>
Why wouldn't you just return the barrel to them(Hart) and get one that doesn't foul???? Moly may help a tad but, I would question whether its going to make it shoot any better??? Id rather get a good barrel to start with then burn up ammmo on one that you know fouls easily, especially since they offered to fix it.....Either way I'm curious what you come up with
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Hart makes a great barrel and I own several. There warranty is second to none. Just send it back . They will take care of you. Good luck. Paul.
Hart makes a great barrel and I own several. There warranty is second to none. Just send it back . They will take care of you. Good luck. Paul.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Five7guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been told this before or maybe I read it on 6mmbr.com. Anyways, if you pick a top barrel maker I have heard good about all three of them you mentioned then your good to go. Whats more important is who and how it gets chambered. Good luck with your barrel. </div></div>
100% agree on the chambering job. I have heard great thinks about them all to but a lot less bad from Bartlein than the others.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Five7guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been told this before or maybe I read it on 6mmbr.com. Anyways, if you pick a top barrel maker I have heard good about all three of them you mentioned then your good to go. Whats more important is who and how it gets chambered. Good luck with your barrel. </div></div>
100% agree on the chambering job. I have heard great thinks about them all to but a lot less bad from Bartlein than the others.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
I dont believe that is necessarily the case. Why do you think so? How is one process more exact that the other? I belive both are lapped finishes, so wouldnt that be the limiting factor? </div></div>
Nope, holding twist rates and how the bore and groove are cut come into play.
Cut-rifle advantage
Most stress-free way to rifle a barrel.
Bore and groove dimensions very uniform throughout the entire length of a barrel.
On average the barrel lasts longer than a button rifled barrel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will a Hart shoot as well as Kreiger or bartlein maybe. That said, Hart is not equal to Kreiger or Bartlein as they are cut-rifled vs Hart's push-button rifling.
Cut-rifled barrels can hold more exact tolerances than push-button barrels.
</div></div>
I dont believe that is necessarily the case. Why do you think so? How is one process more exact that the other? I belive both are lapped finishes, so wouldnt that be the limiting factor? </div></div>
Nope, holding twist rates and how the bore and groove are cut come into play.
Cut-rifle advantage
Most stress-free way to rifle a barrel.
Bore and groove dimensions very uniform throughout the entire length of a barrel.
On average the barrel lasts longer than a button rifled barrel.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Twist - potentially, the button rifling fans have to concede that point. It is indeed possible for the button to "slip" in the bore. In practice this is less likely than cut rifling fans would lead some to believe.
Stress free - cut or button, the blanks that come into a shop need copious amounts of stress relief due to manufacturing. Why is an additional stress relief step so detrimental as to generate so much controversy?
Bore and groove dimensions - you'll have to enlighten me on this. Please explain.
Barrel life - again, you'll have to explain how cut rifling will yield intrinsically superior results.
The one thing that has always bothered me about proponents of one process or the other: no one supports their claims with actual numbers. Lots and lots of people are absolutely convinced of something with no actual understanding of the reasons, real or otherwise, behind their choice.
Twist - potentially, the button rifling fans have to concede that point. It is indeed possible for the button to "slip" in the bore. In practice this is less likely than cut rifling fans would lead some to believe.
Stress free - cut or button, the blanks that come into a shop need copious amounts of stress relief due to manufacturing. Why is an additional stress relief step so detrimental as to generate so much controversy?
Bore and groove dimensions - you'll have to enlighten me on this. Please explain.
Barrel life - again, you'll have to explain how cut rifling will yield intrinsically superior results.
The one thing that has always bothered me about proponents of one process or the other: no one supports their claims with actual numbers. Lots and lots of people are absolutely convinced of something with no actual understanding of the reasons, real or otherwise, behind their choice.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
"Any fool can pull a button through a barrel!" Boots Obermeyer.
Just my view man we all have them. Personally I hope you all order button rifled barrels. It will reduce my lead time.
I would encourage everyone to do research. I happen to live next to some of the best LR BR guys in the US. When I want to talk barrels and accuracy that's my source. The old guys shoot out barrels very quickly and have been doing so for more years than I have birthdays.
I talk with enough guys chambering guns to believe that you have less of a chance of a bad barrel with a cut vs button barrel.
"Any fool can pull a button through a barrel!" Boots Obermeyer.
Just my view man we all have them. Personally I hope you all order button rifled barrels. It will reduce my lead time.
I would encourage everyone to do research. I happen to live next to some of the best LR BR guys in the US. When I want to talk barrels and accuracy that's my source. The old guys shoot out barrels very quickly and have been doing so for more years than I have birthdays.
I talk with enough guys chambering guns to believe that you have less of a chance of a bad barrel with a cut vs button barrel.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
I finally found the article I was looking for from Border, who build both button and cut barrels.
WHICH METHOD MAKES THE BEST RIFLE BARRELS?
Here that at Border Barrels we used to exclusively cut rifled until the demand for our barrels outstripped capacity. The principle problem was (and is) the availability of cut rifling machines - you don't exactly trip over them at machinery auctions. Also, a high level of skill is required to maintain the tooling. Like all old technologies, cut rifling is slow and requires a high level of skill to make and maintain the tooling. This makes it expensive. The other side of the coin is that the tooling is readily made with simple machine tools and is very flexible - by which I mean that a large range of twists and bore dimensions and numbers of grooves are readily achieved using the same cutter and rifling head. This makes cut rifling an efficient way to go if you are making custom barrels in one's and two's to a customers specific requirements and you can charge a hefty sum for your efforts. But cut rifling machines are expensive to buy and expensive to operate. Some people have made their own rifling machines using CNC technology to overcome the difficulties in rifling machine design. Bartlein barrels in the United States use a home-built CNC machine. And in the UK, Holland & Holland have a CNC rifling machine.
Having started out as a custom barrel maker making custom barrels in one's and two's, we found that more and more of our work was in longer and longer runs of barrels of the same type and when it takes an hour or more to rifle a barrel, it sure leads to long days.
So we invested in plant for button rifling. The button rifling machine is relatively simple and cheap to build, (compared to a cut rifling machine), and the buttons are also available and very cheap - in terms of tooling cost per barrel. Also, no real skill is required to pull a button down a barrel. Boots was right! What all this is leading up to is that we have experience in making barrels using the two methods most commonly used in making top quality target rifle barrels and we can be pretty objective about the pro's and con's of cut rifling and button rifling. Hammer forged barrels do not have a very visible presence in the accurate gun world, so I will confine this discussion as to the relative merits of cut versus button rifled barrels.
If it is so easy to rifle barrels using a button, why do some barrel makers persist in the difficult, time consuming art of cut rifling? As outlined above it is critical in an accurate barrel that bore and groove dimensions be uniform end to end. When buttoning a barrel then it is critical that the steel be very homogeneous and of uniform hardness along the bar. If not then the button will engrave deeper into the soft parts than the hard parts so giving varying dimensions down the barrel. The button rifled barrel maker is very much in the hands of his steel mill to supply him with uniform, homogeneous steel.
The depth of engraving of the button depends also on the thickness of the bar at the point where the button is. If the bar is thin then the metal can then just expand elastically allowing the button the pass without doing much engraving. If the bar is thick there is more resistance to the button and so it will engrave deeper. To hope to get uniform bore dimensions it is critical to pull the button through a blank which has the form of a parallel cylinder. A button rifled barrel must be rifled and then stress relieved before it is profiled. There is always the problem that any residual stresses are going to make the barrel move when profiling, so leaving you with a barrel that is bent or bell-mouthed.
The tendency of the bore dimensions of non-stress relieved buttoned barrels to expand on profiling the outside had been used by some manufactures to advantage. Barrels having bore dimensions that vary over the length can be made to shoot well if the muzzle end is the tightest part of the barrel. The bullet will then make a clean exit without gas leaking around the sides to destabilise it. When mass producing barrels it is then possible to allow a fair degree of variation in the bore and groove dimensions down the barrel, provided some choking at the muzzle is included in the manufacturing process. If the buttoned barrel blank is profiled so that the last inch or so at the muzzle end is left at a larger diameter than the rest of the barrel, the expansion of the bore dimensions will be least at the muzzle so leaving a slight choke. That is why the barrels on almost all .22 target rifles look the way they do.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Cut rifling a barrel puts no stress in the steel and so it is possible to profile the barrel after the drilling stage. Any moving around the barrel is going to do will be done and the barrel can be reamed and rifled after profiling. The problem of stress induced changes in bore dimensions during manufacture can be eliminated.</span>
When making fluted barrels, the fear is always there that putting, say, six flutes on the outside of the barrel will leave the bore shaped like a hexagon instead of round. (Like it should be!) With cut rifling, the barrel can be completely profiled and fluted after the drilling stage and then reamed and rifled. All the niggling doubts as to whether fluting the barrel will ruin it can be dispelled if it is done this way - but this manufacturing route in not available to you when you button rifle a barrel.
<span style="font-weight: bold">The exact twist of a buttoned barrel is also unpredictable. The button tends to slip in the barrel so what set out to be a 12 inch twist may end up as a 12.5 inch twist. This is not a problem if the twist is uniform, but if it varies down the barrel - particularly if it slows - then like as not, it will not shoot.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Another problem, is that the button may not engrave as deep on one side as on the other so leaving a groove circle that is not concentric with the bore. The result is bullets leaving the barrel which are not balanced and so unstable. This becomes less of a problem if you have lots of shallow grooves instead of a few deep ones.</span>
Selection is the key to success with buttoned barrels and barrel makers like Hart, Douglas and Shillen grade their barrels by using an air gauge to judge the uniformity of bore and groove dimensions in each barrel. Ultra Premium Select barrels carry a premium price tag and are used by the bench rest fraternity. The lower grades get turned into regular target barrels and sporter barrels.
<span style="font-weight: bold">None of these problems arise in traditional single point cut rifling a barrel</span>. Groove circle and bore are always very concentric. Because very little work is being done on each passing cut the twist rate is very consistent and very uniform. As a general rule, I find that button rifled barrels are not as uniform in bore dimensions straight off the machine as a cut rifled barrel. Button rifled barrels usually need a deal more lapping than a cut rifled barrel due to this problem.
Exact dimensions are easier to achieve by cut rifling and are not dependent on the hardness or thickness or type of steel as they are in buttoning. No stress is put into the barrel by cut rifling so no stress relieving is needed.
Many people think that the superior finish in a button rifled barrel must mean it will shoot better. In the first place, the surface finish that counts is the longitudinal surface finish, down the length of the grooves. The tool marks in cut rifled barrels go in just this direction, so causing mini-lands which are quite uniform down the length of the barrel. The transverse "roughness" caused by the lands are never viewed as an impediment to accuracy, so the mini-lands left by the tool marks in cut rifled barrels will also not affect accuracy. In the second place, the final finish in the barrel is determined by the lapping. If the cut rifling barrel maker has paid attention and kept his cutter sharp to minimise tool marks, then after lapping only a very experienced eye will be able to tell the difference between the cut rifled and the button rifled barrel.
I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States have rediscovered the cut rifled barrel and cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops.
I finally found the article I was looking for from Border, who build both button and cut barrels.
WHICH METHOD MAKES THE BEST RIFLE BARRELS?
Here that at Border Barrels we used to exclusively cut rifled until the demand for our barrels outstripped capacity. The principle problem was (and is) the availability of cut rifling machines - you don't exactly trip over them at machinery auctions. Also, a high level of skill is required to maintain the tooling. Like all old technologies, cut rifling is slow and requires a high level of skill to make and maintain the tooling. This makes it expensive. The other side of the coin is that the tooling is readily made with simple machine tools and is very flexible - by which I mean that a large range of twists and bore dimensions and numbers of grooves are readily achieved using the same cutter and rifling head. This makes cut rifling an efficient way to go if you are making custom barrels in one's and two's to a customers specific requirements and you can charge a hefty sum for your efforts. But cut rifling machines are expensive to buy and expensive to operate. Some people have made their own rifling machines using CNC technology to overcome the difficulties in rifling machine design. Bartlein barrels in the United States use a home-built CNC machine. And in the UK, Holland & Holland have a CNC rifling machine.
Having started out as a custom barrel maker making custom barrels in one's and two's, we found that more and more of our work was in longer and longer runs of barrels of the same type and when it takes an hour or more to rifle a barrel, it sure leads to long days.
So we invested in plant for button rifling. The button rifling machine is relatively simple and cheap to build, (compared to a cut rifling machine), and the buttons are also available and very cheap - in terms of tooling cost per barrel. Also, no real skill is required to pull a button down a barrel. Boots was right! What all this is leading up to is that we have experience in making barrels using the two methods most commonly used in making top quality target rifle barrels and we can be pretty objective about the pro's and con's of cut rifling and button rifling. Hammer forged barrels do not have a very visible presence in the accurate gun world, so I will confine this discussion as to the relative merits of cut versus button rifled barrels.
If it is so easy to rifle barrels using a button, why do some barrel makers persist in the difficult, time consuming art of cut rifling? As outlined above it is critical in an accurate barrel that bore and groove dimensions be uniform end to end. When buttoning a barrel then it is critical that the steel be very homogeneous and of uniform hardness along the bar. If not then the button will engrave deeper into the soft parts than the hard parts so giving varying dimensions down the barrel. The button rifled barrel maker is very much in the hands of his steel mill to supply him with uniform, homogeneous steel.
The depth of engraving of the button depends also on the thickness of the bar at the point where the button is. If the bar is thin then the metal can then just expand elastically allowing the button the pass without doing much engraving. If the bar is thick there is more resistance to the button and so it will engrave deeper. To hope to get uniform bore dimensions it is critical to pull the button through a blank which has the form of a parallel cylinder. A button rifled barrel must be rifled and then stress relieved before it is profiled. There is always the problem that any residual stresses are going to make the barrel move when profiling, so leaving you with a barrel that is bent or bell-mouthed.
The tendency of the bore dimensions of non-stress relieved buttoned barrels to expand on profiling the outside had been used by some manufactures to advantage. Barrels having bore dimensions that vary over the length can be made to shoot well if the muzzle end is the tightest part of the barrel. The bullet will then make a clean exit without gas leaking around the sides to destabilise it. When mass producing barrels it is then possible to allow a fair degree of variation in the bore and groove dimensions down the barrel, provided some choking at the muzzle is included in the manufacturing process. If the buttoned barrel blank is profiled so that the last inch or so at the muzzle end is left at a larger diameter than the rest of the barrel, the expansion of the bore dimensions will be least at the muzzle so leaving a slight choke. That is why the barrels on almost all .22 target rifles look the way they do.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Cut rifling a barrel puts no stress in the steel and so it is possible to profile the barrel after the drilling stage. Any moving around the barrel is going to do will be done and the barrel can be reamed and rifled after profiling. The problem of stress induced changes in bore dimensions during manufacture can be eliminated.</span>
When making fluted barrels, the fear is always there that putting, say, six flutes on the outside of the barrel will leave the bore shaped like a hexagon instead of round. (Like it should be!) With cut rifling, the barrel can be completely profiled and fluted after the drilling stage and then reamed and rifled. All the niggling doubts as to whether fluting the barrel will ruin it can be dispelled if it is done this way - but this manufacturing route in not available to you when you button rifle a barrel.
<span style="font-weight: bold">The exact twist of a buttoned barrel is also unpredictable. The button tends to slip in the barrel so what set out to be a 12 inch twist may end up as a 12.5 inch twist. This is not a problem if the twist is uniform, but if it varies down the barrel - particularly if it slows - then like as not, it will not shoot.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Another problem, is that the button may not engrave as deep on one side as on the other so leaving a groove circle that is not concentric with the bore. The result is bullets leaving the barrel which are not balanced and so unstable. This becomes less of a problem if you have lots of shallow grooves instead of a few deep ones.</span>
Selection is the key to success with buttoned barrels and barrel makers like Hart, Douglas and Shillen grade their barrels by using an air gauge to judge the uniformity of bore and groove dimensions in each barrel. Ultra Premium Select barrels carry a premium price tag and are used by the bench rest fraternity. The lower grades get turned into regular target barrels and sporter barrels.
<span style="font-weight: bold">None of these problems arise in traditional single point cut rifling a barrel</span>. Groove circle and bore are always very concentric. Because very little work is being done on each passing cut the twist rate is very consistent and very uniform. As a general rule, I find that button rifled barrels are not as uniform in bore dimensions straight off the machine as a cut rifled barrel. Button rifled barrels usually need a deal more lapping than a cut rifled barrel due to this problem.
Exact dimensions are easier to achieve by cut rifling and are not dependent on the hardness or thickness or type of steel as they are in buttoning. No stress is put into the barrel by cut rifling so no stress relieving is needed.
Many people think that the superior finish in a button rifled barrel must mean it will shoot better. In the first place, the surface finish that counts is the longitudinal surface finish, down the length of the grooves. The tool marks in cut rifled barrels go in just this direction, so causing mini-lands which are quite uniform down the length of the barrel. The transverse "roughness" caused by the lands are never viewed as an impediment to accuracy, so the mini-lands left by the tool marks in cut rifled barrels will also not affect accuracy. In the second place, the final finish in the barrel is determined by the lapping. If the cut rifling barrel maker has paid attention and kept his cutter sharp to minimise tool marks, then after lapping only a very experienced eye will be able to tell the difference between the cut rifled and the button rifled barrel.
I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States have rediscovered the cut rifled barrel and cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank, me? No, I don't wonder why. I have a Bartlein on every gun I own and 6 or 8 still setting on the shelf waiting to be chucked up my George and transformed into a match winning build
People will continue to come on and say they have X barrel and it shoots well so we should all buy them. People love to self justify what ever crap they purchase regardless if it great or not. I think the thought goes something like If I make a poor decision without understanding the facts I should help others by telling them it's a good idea too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank, me? No, I don't wonder why. I have a Bartlein on every gun I own and 6 or 8 still setting on the shelf waiting to be chucked up my George and transformed into a match winning build
People will continue to come on and say they have X barrel and it shoots well so we should all buy them. People love to self justify what ever crap they purchase regardless if it great or not. I think the thought goes something like If I make a poor decision without understanding the facts I should help others by telling them it's a good idea too.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
My point was missed.
Let me make a few statements first:
First, I am a cut rifling fan. I prefer 10X barrels to all others. That they are cut rifled is merely anecdotal to my preference, however.
Second, I am not without some knowledge of engineering. I hold a doctorate in materials engineering, as well as professional engineering licensure in the majority of states. I bring this up for background only.
Right now, cut rifled barrels are the choice of nearly all benchrest competitors - IBS, NBRSA, etc. Now the question is this: is this because of fad or because of smaller aggs? A quick look at the match scores (for group) indicated that smaller aggs may not be the case. In fact, just a few years ago, Shilen was the darling of the group shooters. And those are push button barrels! Right now Bartlein and Krieger own the benchrest market. So what?
Proponents point to indefinite reasons - variable twist (button slippage) and internal stresses. That's fine. Without numbers to back the claim, and it may well be a valid argument, it is merely arguing whether grape kool-aid is better than cherry. Personal tastes are fine though, that's why I like the 10Xs. I cant point to a single reason they are factually superior though.
A look through the 'net indicates that no real study has been done to put some numbers behind the claims. It would be interesting to see the kind of tolerance in twist from one process to the other. Similarly, it would be interesting to see the non linear thermal expansion of one process to the other.
An interesting debate to be sure, as long as facts are presented as such and v-v.
My point was missed.
Let me make a few statements first:
First, I am a cut rifling fan. I prefer 10X barrels to all others. That they are cut rifled is merely anecdotal to my preference, however.
Second, I am not without some knowledge of engineering. I hold a doctorate in materials engineering, as well as professional engineering licensure in the majority of states. I bring this up for background only.
Right now, cut rifled barrels are the choice of nearly all benchrest competitors - IBS, NBRSA, etc. Now the question is this: is this because of fad or because of smaller aggs? A quick look at the match scores (for group) indicated that smaller aggs may not be the case. In fact, just a few years ago, Shilen was the darling of the group shooters. And those are push button barrels! Right now Bartlein and Krieger own the benchrest market. So what?
Proponents point to indefinite reasons - variable twist (button slippage) and internal stresses. That's fine. Without numbers to back the claim, and it may well be a valid argument, it is merely arguing whether grape kool-aid is better than cherry. Personal tastes are fine though, that's why I like the 10Xs. I cant point to a single reason they are factually superior though.
A look through the 'net indicates that no real study has been done to put some numbers behind the claims. It would be interesting to see the kind of tolerance in twist from one process to the other. Similarly, it would be interesting to see the non linear thermal expansion of one process to the other.
An interesting debate to be sure, as long as facts are presented as such and v-v.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
And then you have Benchmark Barrels in Arlington, WA that are Excellent barrels giving stellar performance that are buttoned rifled and hand lapped. They really kick ass. They are so good that they make a Bartlein/Krieger barrel guy like me "go over to the Dark side ..."
And then you have Benchmark Barrels in Arlington, WA that are Excellent barrels giving stellar performance that are buttoned rifled and hand lapped. They really kick ass. They are so good that they make a Bartlein/Krieger barrel guy like me "go over to the Dark side ..."
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels</div></div>
Me either. Got all Bartleins on my rifles now and will continue to use them. Great barrels.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels</div></div>
Me either. Got all Bartleins on my rifles now and will continue to use them. Great barrels.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
have a krieger on my 700 and my AR and both are top notch. Buddy has a Bartlein and it's just as great. I'm sure the Hart is no different. ANYONE OF THE TOP BARREL MAKERS WILL BE GREAT !!!!!!
have a krieger on my 700 and my AR and both are top notch. Buddy has a Bartlein and it's just as great. I'm sure the Hart is no different. ANYONE OF THE TOP BARREL MAKERS WILL BE GREAT !!!!!!
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...
What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.
One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...
Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.
European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment
Click on the above link.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...
What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.
One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...
Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.
European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment
Click on the above link.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Ah, but that is anecdotal support - not factual statements.
Just a few years ago, the button rifled barrels owned benchrest, et al.
There are still standing records where the shooter used a button rifled barrel. Are the aggs measurably smaller now vs. a few years ago? How about barrel life? Are there objective measurements?
The point is, without actual numbers supporting a position, it is just an opinion. I'm not trying to be obstinate or argumentative, rather clear and objective.
I'll buy what I consider the best, button, cut, or otherwise based on information I have on hand. However, for the OP and people in his position (as well as many experienced shooters), it would be worthwhile to bring the cut vs. button argument up from "feelings" to actual data. For example, an argument ender would be: I measured 10 Bartlein barrels and found that the linearity of the bore changed 0.00xxx inches with a 25C temperature changed on average where the same measurement for Shilen was 0.00yyy, and 0.00zzz with Hart, etc.
Cheers!
Bill
Ah, but that is anecdotal support - not factual statements.
Just a few years ago, the button rifled barrels owned benchrest, et al.
There are still standing records where the shooter used a button rifled barrel. Are the aggs measurably smaller now vs. a few years ago? How about barrel life? Are there objective measurements?
The point is, without actual numbers supporting a position, it is just an opinion. I'm not trying to be obstinate or argumentative, rather clear and objective.
I'll buy what I consider the best, button, cut, or otherwise based on information I have on hand. However, for the OP and people in his position (as well as many experienced shooters), it would be worthwhile to bring the cut vs. button argument up from "feelings" to actual data. For example, an argument ender would be: I measured 10 Bartlein barrels and found that the linearity of the bore changed 0.00xxx inches with a 25C temperature changed on average where the same measurement for Shilen was 0.00yyy, and 0.00zzz with Hart, etc.
Cheers!
Bill
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...
What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.
One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...
Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.
European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment
Click on the above link.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
If Bartlein barrels didn't exist... what would you have on your rifles?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A button barrel can be a good barrel. Not trying to poke at Benchmark, Hart, Shilen etc...
What we have found along with a host of other shooters etc...is that the consistency from barrel to barrel with twist uniformity etc...is better with the cut than with the button for reasons stated by 264charlie.
One comment made about so what Bartlein and Krieger own benchrest etc...
Besides those matches take a look at the European F-Class Championships shot late last year in the U.K. If memory serves me right 9 out of the top 10 guns in the F-Class Open had a cut rifled barrel on them. The top 6 place finishers had our barrels on the guns. 9 out of top 10 where all cut rifled barrels. Only one button barrel. Why? It goes back to consistency and uniformity.
European F-Class Championship Results & Equipment
Click on the above link.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
Frank,
If Bartlein barrels didn't exist... what would you have on your rifles?
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
People will continue to come on and say they have X barrel and it shoots well so we should all buy them. People love to self justify what ever crap they purchase regardless if it great or not. I think the thought goes something like If I make a poor decision without understanding the facts I should help others by telling them it's a good idea too.
</div></div>
Well said
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264Charlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you wonder why we don't make button rifled barrels!
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>
People will continue to come on and say they have X barrel and it shoots well so we should all buy them. People love to self justify what ever crap they purchase regardless if it great or not. I think the thought goes something like If I make a poor decision without understanding the facts I should help others by telling them it's a good idea too.
</div></div>
Well said
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
And then there is hammer forged , broached , double buttoned barrels , single buttond , cut and several qualities of production sorted out in every brand and type. If a barrel don't shoot for you then it does not matter a hoot how well they say it is made or how expensive it is.
If it shoots like steam then same deal. I think all the barrel makers can make very good barrels , down to ordinary or crap barrels at times . I think you have to be prepared to pay the extra for the top quality select match barrels.
And then there is hammer forged , broached , double buttoned barrels , single buttond , cut and several qualities of production sorted out in every brand and type. If a barrel don't shoot for you then it does not matter a hoot how well they say it is made or how expensive it is.
If it shoots like steam then same deal. I think all the barrel makers can make very good barrels , down to ordinary or crap barrels at times . I think you have to be prepared to pay the extra for the top quality select match barrels.
Re: Hart, Kreiger or Bartlein?
Mac, linux, or Windows?
That said, I just bought a Krieger.
Mac, linux, or Windows?
That said, I just bought a Krieger.
