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Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

A

AzNooB

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2010
123
0
35
Dallas, TX
My friend and I recently got into precision shooting. He bought a Remington 5R that is now fitted with a S&B PMII, Timney trigger, Atlas bipod, and AX AICS. He's able to consistently shoot 0.7 MOA 5-shot groups out of it. I've bested it at right under 0.5 MOA.

I had a Noveske N4 that was a good 0.7-0.8 MOA gun but I had to sell it before we could do any real load development on it. It was free floated and had a decent amount of cool-guy parts.

We mainly shot SMK's and used FGMM as well.

Now after talking to some people I know, it seems like we have wasted our money. One of my old friends from high school told me his bone stock Weatherby Vanguard with a Wal-Mart Bushnell scope on it will consistently shoot 0.7 MOA with factory hunting ammo. Another guy I met told me his factory Remington 700 BDL shoots quarter sized groups at 300 yards using Remington Core-Lokt ammo. Both guys had a .30-06.

My dad has a Remington 700 ADL in .30-06. I would be happy if I left the range with 2 MOA groups on my targets using Remington Core-Lokt.

Maybe we just suck at shooting.
frown.gif
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Or maybe every swinging dick in walmart can shoot quarter sized groups with their 30-06?

Don't believe everything you are told about Jimmy Jack's shooting ability. Take it was a grain of salt.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I would have said wow that's impressive, 3/4 inch group at 300 yards, come to the range and show me how it's done. Most likely he is full of SH&&. Not to say he can not do it, but odds are he is lying.

The HOWA/weatherby vanguard is a soild 3/4 to 1moa gun from my experience. I have two. One is 223 that's shoots .5 moa and a 308 that holds dead on 1moa.

Take what you hear with a truck load of salt. If you are getting consistent 3/4 moa and under from a 5r, I would be happy, not satisfied. More time behind the gun or a 22 trainer, bedding, and possibly a better load could get you to .5 moa.

There are a lot more sub .5 moa guns on the Internet and gun shops than you will ever see on the firing line!
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I'd tell him to put his money where his mouth is.

Let us know how it goes if you can get him on a range. Would love to see you shut him up.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I had an older .308 Savage 10FP that really would print 1/2 MOA with 1 or 2 factory loadings. That being said for that 1 that would I have had quite a number that barely held MOA on a *REALYL* good day! As the others said, do not believe all you hear.. What you have should be fine for a good start at extended range shooting with a good load.

Gary
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Some "manager" at Wally World recently told my buddy about shooting a golf ball at almost 2 miles. I sure wish I had been there to call BS!!!! Yeah every douche bag who doesn't even go shoot can shoot quarter size groups.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

here is a picture of what my remington 700 sps v is capable of at 100yd, five shot group. i was very surprised. but i did find what load it liked and also practice my basic marksmanship fundamentals every shot. i will be doing a full review of my build when i am done. i still need to get a timney trigger cuz i hate the xmark and also going with a dbm and then for looks going to paint it and maybe flute the bolt

IMAG0474.jpg
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

im not really sure how to measure a group cause ive never reall been interested in how small of group i get untill now that i am getting into the long range. i mostly do three gun and pistol comps
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

People always inflate shooting ability. I am an average (if that) rifle shot, but have been shooting since I was a child. Just last week I had a girl I know telling me about her 1" group at 1000 yards... 20 shots in 0.1 MOA at 1000 her first time shooting that far... 9/10 times ignoring people is the way to go
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I was at the range load testing a month and half ago. Guy next to me is telling me how he shoots fist sized groups at 1000 yards. My zero test group is bout 0.75" center-to-center and he comments how scary accurate my rifle must be & would like one as accurate as it. Suddenly, I'm wondering what happened to his 1000 yard fist-size capable rifle...
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I had an ltr that shot half inch groups all day at 100 but it just doesnt look as cool as a custom :)
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

true that i wish i could afford a gap. and even more i wish i wasnt limited to 850 at my place. its hard to find 1000 yard field in ks with a safe backstop
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I know a couple hunters that talk about how they cannot shoot at all. They are at the range with their .22 75-100 yards and after 20+ rounds have 1 little hole with maybe a flyer or 2.

Then some Ass with an horribly tarnished rusty 300WM or aught6 says he can do that at a mile and how he dropped a white rain through the brush at 2 miles away....

A great barometer of how big the pile of bull shit stacks up is how soon they go about telling you the story.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Wild claims are fun to listen to once YOU know a bit about long range shooting and what it takes.
To me I don't find the group sizes all that funny, but it is the distance that folks claim. I would say 90%+ of folks have no idea about judging distance accurately. I hear a lot of times about how this person or that person made a 400 yard shot on a running buck with his trusty .30-30. When asked to point out how far it was they point to a bush,car,etc., at about 75 yards away! And truley think it is hundreds of yards.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BgBmBoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wild claims are fun to listen to once YOU know a bit about long range shooting and what it takes.
To me I don't find the group sizes all that funny, but it is the distance that folks claim. I would say 90%+ of folks have no idea about judging distance accurately. I hear a lot of times about how this person or that person made a 400 yard shot on a running buck with his trusty .30-30. When asked to point out how far it was they point to a bush,car,etc., at about 75 yards away! And truley think it is hundreds of yards.

</div></div>

The best part is when you go shooting with them and take them to the 500yd line and start hitting your target. They'll go brag to all their friends about this awesome "sniper" guy they know who can shoot a .223/.308 at a mile and a half. Just makes them look even more idiotic.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I've seen some really crappy guns shoot well, but the real test is if it can shoot equally well in adverse conditions, after being dropped on the ground, drug through the bush, and after being fired thousands of time. A quality rifle will take the abuse in stride and keep on performing, a Wal-Mart rifle will end up with a cracked stock, a wandering zero, a fogged up scope, and components that fail. No, you didn't waste your money.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Your reply to people like that should always be "yeah, but I can light a match at at 1000 yards"
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

This is a bit of a different track on your question.

I used to be into heavy Trapshooting competition, I also have an expensive Trap Gun, on any given day Billy Bob or Jimmy John could walk up and beat me with their cheap Remington Pump or their Savage Over and Under. But! with that said they couldn't do that day in and day out with their cheap guns. After 10 to 20,000 rounds (way less for the cheaper guns) their guns will start to fail them in a big way.

So buy the best you can afford cry for a bit, but never look back.

Also have Bubba bring his cheap Wally World scope out and shoot multiple distances targets all day long and find out which scope stands up at the end of the day.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I'm on a committee with several shooters. Recently, one told me there was no way a custom rifle (or any gun) could shoot better than his Savage or his Marlin. He claimed that every group he shoots its under 1/4" at 100 yards and he touches them together at 275, the longest lane at his range. He told me I was stupid for buying "high dollar scopes" referencing a Leupold VX-III I used to have.

After about five minutes of him bragging, I invited him to the last match. I told him he could ride with me and I'd even pay his entry fee. I told him that's good shooting he's been doing and there's no way he could lose if he shoots half that well. He declined my offer claiming he didn't have time to waste doing stuff like that. He hasn't spoke of his accurate shooting since.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Wasted money? Drop the rifles a few times, rub some grime in it, leave it out in the elements. There is more to a rifle than just ultimate accuracy.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

There is no way a factory anything puts a .25 moa group with Core-Lokt.

I've seen Core-Lokt shot through an AI and Stiller custom gun. Those were .25-.5 moa rifles but not with that ammo. That ammo shot a 1.5 moa group at 100 out of those rifles.

Shit ammo is shit ammo.

Putting 87 octane in a Ferrari will result in the same amount of disappointment. Putting Core-Lokt through a rifle in search of accuracy makes you look as smart as someone filling an F1 car with diesel.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

^ exactly this

that rem factory ammo is garbage

i have seen a few factory rifles shoot very well....with good hand loads, and even with inexpensive scopes, you don't need a 3k scope to shoot groups at 100yrds but under 1moa with that core lokt is where i draw the line.

as people know accuracy out of a rifle had to do with several compounding factors, and even if the gun was a solid .5moa gun that ammo is the limiting factor.

I love hearing peoples stories of their sub .5moa guns and these amazing groups they shoot at 300 and beyond. I just seem impressed and try to lead them on until they dig a really deep hole
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I was testing the 700 PSS I now own and was only able to get that core lokt ammo in the very short notice I had. I knew not to expect the world, but I ended up with 2-4 MOA 'groups' if you can even call them that.

Now that I own the rifle it's stacking holes on top of each other with hand loads.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RFutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> More of that going on here. </div></div>

Lol, I was one of the guys calling bullshit on the guy who claimed 1/4" groups at 200 yards with Winchester Power Points.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

At the rifle range, great groups are heard, but rarely seen.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Wow. WTF is right. lol
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no way a factory anything puts a .25 moa group with Core-Lokt.

I've seen Core-Lokt shot through an AI and Stiller custom gun. Those were .25-.5 moa rifles but not with that ammo. That ammo shot a 1.5 moa group at 100 out of those rifles.

Shit ammo is shit ammo.

Putting 87 octane in a Ferrari will result in the same amount of disappointment. Putting Core-Lokt through a rifle in search of accuracy makes you look as smart as someone filling an F1 car with diesel. </div></div>

this!

-Paulus
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Plenty of this BS goes on here, too.

I don't really shoot groups other than to zero, but generally, I have serious doubt about anyone who says their rifle shoots under MOA regularly.

With good ammo, sub-moa is possible if the shooter does his part. But anyone who tells you that their gun will shoot "sub-MOA all day long," in most situations, they're probably full of shit.

It's not like a fancy gun steers the bullets to the target. Most of the people reading this post can't hold a 1/2 MOA at any distance.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanPopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the rifle range, great groups are heard, but rarely seen. </div></div>

Especially at the public ranges. Can't tell you how many times I get people who call my .6 inch groups lucky flukes. Yeah, I got lucky, 10 times in a row.

Then there is Sledge Hammer drilling .3's with his Stillers 1 lane over.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Of course you're wasting your money...didn't you know that on every public range there are three to five people a day who can shoot 1/2" groupings at 500m with a Keltec pocket pistol in .32acp?

wink.gif


--Wintermute
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

They are probably full of crap. When I got my 700LH VS I got a box of 180gr Federal SP ammo. This ammo shot good enough to win 100yd for score local BR comps. Past 100 M80 would be a better option.

With that being said some factory ammo will perform very well in some rifles and like trash in others. I have a 22-250 that will not shoot the Winchester 50gr ammo that comes in a bog box of 40. My friends rifle shoots that crap as well as his 55gr Nosler BT ammo as far as he wants to shoot it at Parie dogs.

So you never know but probably full of crap.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." - Benjamin Franklin
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Amazing what you are told when gun talk gets started. The same ones that shoot these unbelievable groups are the same ones that have a pickup truck full of excuses why they can never come to a long range match to show us all how to do it. We've had shooters show up our 1000 yard range and comment on how small the little target is at the 1000 yard line. It was really hard not to smile when we said that was only 500 yards.

If they can't do it on demand and in front of others then 99.9% of the time those fantastic groups are either a once in a lifetime achievement or at half the distance or less than what they are claiming. Occasionally one of them ask what I shoot and my farthest shot, when I say pistol and 1000 yards then I get the rolled eyes and smirk. I'm pretty much ignored from then on. I've Been on both sides of the fence on this topic.

If you are a good shooter your reputation will precede you. If ya make a statement make sure you can back it up or best to keep silent and enjoy the show.

Looks like you got things going right, keep it up and someday you'll get your chance to tell them to "put up or shut up".

Topstrap
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Not hardly!! If i had a quarter for everytime i hear someone say they shoot tiny little groups then they come out to my place and say " boy not sure why im shootin ______ today". I would buy a S&B PMII.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

There was a post once on some forum, thr i think, where a guy claimed he could get some ridiculous groups like 1/4" at 500yds with some milsurp rifle/ammo.

He got bashed for it but tried to insult the other members saying that he had special sniper training and he was an expert sniper blah blah blah and none of them had skills like his.

People started offering him a few hundred or a few thousand dollars that he couldn't do it, and he was saying stuff like "that's pennies, I'd lose more money taking a trip to you than if I just stayed at work that day, its not worth my time for so little money etc"...Then, an apparently very wealthy moderator stepped in and bet the guy $50,000 and an expenses paid trip to his range that he couldn't come and do it in person.

By some miracle chance, the "real" op replied and said it was his little brother the whole time, using his account and intentionally tried to make him look bad by saying all that stuff and making such a claim, which was obviously complete bs.


Some details may be off here but that was the general idea.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AzNooB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My friend and I recently got into precision shooting. He bought a Remington 5R that is now fitted with a S&B PMII, Timney trigger, Atlas bipod, and AX AICS. He's able to consistently shoot 0.7 MOA 5-shot groups out of it. I've bested it at right under 0.5 MOA.

I had a Noveske N4 that was a good 0.7-0.8 MOA gun but I had to sell it before we could do any real load development on it. It was free floated and had a decent amount of cool-guy parts.

We mainly shot SMK's and used FGMM as well.

Now after talking to some people I know, it seems like we have wasted our money. One of my old friends from high school told me his bone stock Weatherby Vanguard with a Wal-Mart Bushnell scope on it will consistently shoot 0.7 MOA with factory hunting ammo. Another guy I met told me his factory Remington 700 BDL shoots quarter sized groups at 300 yards using Remington Core-Lokt ammo. Both guys had a .30-06.

My dad has a Remington 700 ADL in .30-06. I would be happy if I left the range with 2 MOA groups on my targets using Remington Core-Lokt.

Maybe we just suck at shooting.
frown.gif
</div></div>

put 20 1.4 inch dots at 200 yds and lay a fat bet that they cannot hit each one once with 20 rounds, you will come out a winner, most of the FOS claimants do not even understand what moa is
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or maybe every swinging dick in walmart can shoot quarter sized groups with their 30-06?

Don't believe everything you are told about Jimmy Jack's shooting ability. Take it was a grain of salt.

</div></div>

+1. The 5R with the above mentioned aftermarket parts sounds like a great platform. Keep shooting.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<span style="font-size: 14pt">OK guys, I'm going to explain this once and only once -- like everything in life, it's about using the right tool for the right job. </span>
laugh.gif


Ruler.jpg
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamstur</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 14pt">OK guys, I'm going to explain this once and only once -- like everything in life, it's about using the right tool for the right job. </span>
laugh.gif


Ruler.jpg
</div></div>

LMFAO... hmmm where can I buy the penis ruler in metric??? HAHAHAHA
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

^ had a good chuckle at this
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I have a guy I work with who claimed his brother was a great shot (and I don't doubt that he is), but claimed that he shot pond cranes in the head on the far side of the pond behind his house. He said he shot them from his back porch with a .17HMR.

He told me it was 400 yards.

I went to his brother's house and sure enough....he did shoot a pond crane in the head from his back porch. Only problem was that the distance MAY have been 120 yards on a far shot. I'm thinking more like 110. Still an impressive shot, but not 400 yards.

The guy I work with had simply no comprehension of distance. I think that is what happens with other people a lot. Heck, the first time I shot at 600 yards, you probably could have convinced me it was 1,000 as I had no idea and no practical experience. You have to shoot quite a bit to judge distances correctly without known landmarks....especially if they are over 100 yards.

Often times you can tell that someone truly believes what they are saying. You just have to chalk it up to ignorance.
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

Shooting groups is like telling fish stories....just gets smaller and smaller the more you tell it.
smile.gif
 
Re: Have my friend and I been wasting our money?

I think most wanna be shooters have that billfold group rifle. You know the one, they talk about their rifle that shoots 1/4 groups and pull their 1/4" group out of their billfold and show you. That it shot one time! In perfect conditions! So my response is do it again, and then again. Never had one do it.
 
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