Will .308 subs stabilize in a 1-12 barrel? I have a 700 p that I am cutting down to 18in and what to shoot subsonic ammo when I get my suppressor.
Thanks
Mike
Thanks
Mike
Suppressors .308 subsonic
- Thread starter windermike
- Start date
Re: .308 subsonic
208 amax or 220smk.
208 amax or 220smk.
Re: .308 subsonic
I don't have a recipe for anything other than subsonic 168 gr, but if I recall it was like 8.0 grains of titegroup. and ONLY 8.0. I never worked up anything for heavier bullets since we rarely used subsonic.
I don't have a recipe for anything other than subsonic 168 gr, but if I recall it was like 8.0 grains of titegroup. and ONLY 8.0. I never worked up anything for heavier bullets since we rarely used subsonic.
Re: .308 subsonic
Advise strongly that you do not use bullets heavier than 180's in a 1:12...150 and 170 30/30 heads work much better
Advise strongly that you do not use bullets heavier than 180's in a 1:12...150 and 170 30/30 heads work much better
Re: .308 subsonic
There have been reports here on the Hide about 190gr. subsonic bullets keyholing out of a 1:11.25 Remington barrel. It would be my estimate a 1:12 twist would be more susceptible to keyholing. Increasing the bullet weight to 208gr. or 220gr would only aggravate the issue.
If it were me I would probably buy one box of 190gr. subsonics from Southwest Ammunition here on the Hide and test them for keyholing. If they didn't, I would load a heavier bullet and test them (in a velocity range of low supersonic - 1100 to 1500 fps.) Then I would load a few heavy bullet, subsonic rounds and test them (all of this without the suppressor.) Then, if I found no keyholing, I would load and fire for effect.
There have been reports here on the Hide about 190gr. subsonic bullets keyholing out of a 1:11.25 Remington barrel. It would be my estimate a 1:12 twist would be more susceptible to keyholing. Increasing the bullet weight to 208gr. or 220gr would only aggravate the issue.
If it were me I would probably buy one box of 190gr. subsonics from Southwest Ammunition here on the Hide and test them for keyholing. If they didn't, I would load a heavier bullet and test them (in a velocity range of low supersonic - 1100 to 1500 fps.) Then I would load a few heavy bullet, subsonic rounds and test them (all of this without the suppressor.) Then, if I found no keyholing, I would load and fire for effect.
Re: .308 subsonic
Just go to JBMBallistics.com and use their free stability Program http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
It will tell you all you need to know and where you should start your loads at. You can also put in your temp and pressure data, so you can put in extremes to see if the round will stabilize during the summer and not much during colder months. Always do testing can-free!
Just go to JBMBallistics.com and use their free stability Program http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
It will tell you all you need to know and where you should start your loads at. You can also put in your temp and pressure data, so you can put in extremes to see if the round will stabilize during the summer and not much during colder months. Always do testing can-free!
Re: .308 subsonic
I recently did a lot of research on this thinking I would be able to shoot subs out of my A3G. Everything I read from and talked to Gemtech when shooting subs it must be a 1/10 twist to stabilize the bullet. You may get lucky and find a load that works. Try contacting EBR ammo guys and see what they have to say. They might have a load that would work.
I recently did a lot of research on this thinking I would be able to shoot subs out of my A3G. Everything I read from and talked to Gemtech when shooting subs it must be a 1/10 twist to stabilize the bullet. You may get lucky and find a load that works. Try contacting EBR ammo guys and see what they have to say. They might have a load that would work.
Re: .308 subsonic
I tired some 220 round nose flat base subsonics in my 1-12 barrel and they key holed. 150gr round nose flat base bullets have been working for me though a suppressor.
I tired some 220 round nose flat base subsonics in my 1-12 barrel and they key holed. 150gr round nose flat base bullets have been working for me though a suppressor.
Re: .308 subsonic
180 RN are good for 1-12 twist, 220 RN are good for 1-10 twist. Anything heavier or longer will yaw excessively for use with a silencer. The key is bullet length, not weight.
Ranb
180 RN are good for 1-12 twist, 220 RN are good for 1-10 twist. Anything heavier or longer will yaw excessively for use with a silencer. The key is bullet length, not weight.
Ranb
Re: .308 subsonic
I use a 12 twist Rem 308 factory bbl cut to 20" with 147 and 150 subs with great luck. No joy with heavies, other than the 220 Hornady RN.
Using an 8 twist 300 BLK, 215 and 230 Bergers were wobbly at 100 yds. These loads were all subsonic, regardless of powder selection. No sideways strikes, but oblong holes in paper.
Also been using a Tikka T3 cut to 16" with same loads in Rem 308 mentioned above with great results. 7 dead bison so far...
I use a 12 twist Rem 308 factory bbl cut to 20" with 147 and 150 subs with great luck. No joy with heavies, other than the 220 Hornady RN.
Using an 8 twist 300 BLK, 215 and 230 Bergers were wobbly at 100 yds. These loads were all subsonic, regardless of powder selection. No sideways strikes, but oblong holes in paper.
Also been using a Tikka T3 cut to 16" with same loads in Rem 308 mentioned above with great results. 7 dead bison so far...
Re: .308 subsonic
Mike ,
20" LTR and running 168smk w/10gr Trailboss 210M primer FGMM Brass
I had problems with factory Lapua 220 subs out of the 20" so I would definately avoid the heavier slugs out of your 18" !
Mike ,
20" LTR and running 168smk w/10gr Trailboss 210M primer FGMM Brass
I had problems with factory Lapua 220 subs out of the 20" so I would definately avoid the heavier slugs out of your 18" !
Re: .308 subsonic
Thanks guys .
I have plenty of time to test. I am waiting on my can to form 3 to my dealer. Then the real wait starts.
Thanks guys .
I have plenty of time to test. I am waiting on my can to form 3 to my dealer. Then the real wait starts.
Re: .308 subsonic
Tag
Tag
Re: .308 subsonic
Listen to malaga!
Listen to malaga!
Re: .308 subsonic
Yes, listen to malaga, I dont know him but with a 1/12 twist and 18" I would start using 150 gn blunt round nose NON boat tail rounds. do not crimp and test fire with out the can as much as you value your can.
Be careful and load a little hot and bring it down from there. my 1/10-18" .308 I only run up to 180 gns at this point.
To stabilize a bullet depends on some speed. so full power is one thing for the heaviest bullet your barrel can stabilize and subsonic is another.
Yes, listen to malaga, I dont know him but with a 1/12 twist and 18" I would start using 150 gn blunt round nose NON boat tail rounds. do not crimp and test fire with out the can as much as you value your can.
Be careful and load a little hot and bring it down from there. my 1/10-18" .308 I only run up to 180 gns at this point.
To stabilize a bullet depends on some speed. so full power is one thing for the heaviest bullet your barrel can stabilize and subsonic is another.
Re: .308 subsonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will .308 subs stabilize in a 1-12 barrel? I have a 700 p that I am cutting down to 18in and what to shoot subsonic ammo when I get my suppressor. Mike</div></div>
If you must have a 308 Win rifle that can shoot subsonic and supersonic consider this barrel:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/897445/...ed-muzzle-matte
It's already threaded for a suppressor.
Yes, You can get a 12:1 barrel to stabilize some bullets at subsonic velocities. They wont have high BCs. Stability for a given bullet depends not only on twist but also on air density and velocity. All bullets are least stable around the speed of sound, with a "sweet spot" of better stability around 50 to 100 fps less than the speed of sound. With any bullet the energy is 1/2 M V^2. With a bullet at only 35% of the normal velocity it has under 13% of the normal energy. Shooting heavier bullets is desirable for the added energy. A bullet that's stable at 1025 fps at room temperature can be very unstable in cold weather. The speed of sound is 1052 fps at 0F, 1107 fps at 50F, and 1160 fps at 100F.
You'll more than pay for the barrel with the first suppressor you destroy.
The second problem of using a dual purpose subsonic/supersonic 308 Win is that its very difficult to get good velocity consistency (SD) with 56 grain case capacity using the tiny powder charge needed to drive bullets to 1000 fps. You may be able to find reduced capacity 308 Win cases suitable for subsonic loads. In the past I've seen them for sale but haven't found them recently. They were $4 per case since they're CNC machined from bar stock.
A better solution in my opinion is to have two rifles,one subsonic only, the other supersonic only. I didn't select the 18" 308 barrel. I chose these instead:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/968098/...ed-muzzle-matte
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/164759/...ed-muzzle-matte
I use both with a Gemtech Sandstorm suppressor.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windermike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will .308 subs stabilize in a 1-12 barrel? I have a 700 p that I am cutting down to 18in and what to shoot subsonic ammo when I get my suppressor. Mike</div></div>
If you must have a 308 Win rifle that can shoot subsonic and supersonic consider this barrel:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/897445/...ed-muzzle-matte
It's already threaded for a suppressor.
Yes, You can get a 12:1 barrel to stabilize some bullets at subsonic velocities. They wont have high BCs. Stability for a given bullet depends not only on twist but also on air density and velocity. All bullets are least stable around the speed of sound, with a "sweet spot" of better stability around 50 to 100 fps less than the speed of sound. With any bullet the energy is 1/2 M V^2. With a bullet at only 35% of the normal velocity it has under 13% of the normal energy. Shooting heavier bullets is desirable for the added energy. A bullet that's stable at 1025 fps at room temperature can be very unstable in cold weather. The speed of sound is 1052 fps at 0F, 1107 fps at 50F, and 1160 fps at 100F.
You'll more than pay for the barrel with the first suppressor you destroy.
The second problem of using a dual purpose subsonic/supersonic 308 Win is that its very difficult to get good velocity consistency (SD) with 56 grain case capacity using the tiny powder charge needed to drive bullets to 1000 fps. You may be able to find reduced capacity 308 Win cases suitable for subsonic loads. In the past I've seen them for sale but haven't found them recently. They were $4 per case since they're CNC machined from bar stock.
A better solution in my opinion is to have two rifles,one subsonic only, the other supersonic only. I didn't select the 18" 308 barrel. I chose these instead:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/968098/...ed-muzzle-matte
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/164759/...ed-muzzle-matte
I use both with a Gemtech Sandstorm suppressor.
Re: .308 subsonic
I use the cheapo 150 gr round nose bullets sitting on trail boss in 1:10 - why risk it? Its kind of like shooting an expensive .22lr with a bit more punch, they can be very accurate. Be VERY cautious when working "down" loads to check for barrel obstructions... baby steps here - secondary explosive effect can be really nasty. Make sure you also keep an eye on remaining case capacity- hence the less dense powder people are suggesting - less susceptible to position / orientation to horizon when pulling the trigger.
I use the cheapo 150 gr round nose bullets sitting on trail boss in 1:10 - why risk it? Its kind of like shooting an expensive .22lr with a bit more punch, they can be very accurate. Be VERY cautious when working "down" loads to check for barrel obstructions... baby steps here - secondary explosive effect can be really nasty. Make sure you also keep an eye on remaining case capacity- hence the less dense powder people are suggesting - less susceptible to position / orientation to horizon when pulling the trigger.
Re: .308 subsonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just go to JBMBallistics.com and use their free stability Program http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi </div></div>
Beware of that calculator. It shows higher bullet stability at 1100 fps than at 1000 fps for it's default temperature and pressure. In my opinion it does not handle transonic velocities realistically.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheGonz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just go to JBMBallistics.com and use their free stability Program http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi </div></div>
Beware of that calculator. It shows higher bullet stability at 1100 fps than at 1000 fps for it's default temperature and pressure. In my opinion it does not handle transonic velocities realistically.
Re: .308 subsonic
I did the Trailboss calculation based on bullet/case volume.
Here: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
My estimated weight of TB was 10.85. I backed off to 10.5, 10.7, etc, to 11.1 grain by 0.2 grain intervals.
Using a 180 grain Sierra RN bullet over Federal FLS/annealed brass with GM210M primers out of a 26 inch barrel Rem 700 PSS with 12" twist 10.7 gns is giving me
1041 fps, with an SD of 10.5. Using an SRT shadow can, too. VERY quiet, all you hear is the bullet impacting the berm. No keyholes at 100 yds.
With today's temp of 66.6F, Humidity 63% and Pressure of 29.99", mach is 1124 fps giving a muzzle energy of 441 ft-lbs.
This is good.
I'd previously done this with bullseye powder based on articles from Finland and other data found (about 8.2 grains), but with a MUCH wider SD.
This is fun. Can't wait to get my suppressor for my .338 LM and play with this.
What practical use is it? None yet. But hunting with suppressors opening up in a lot of states, there's still hope. A .338 bullet at 300 grains has 735 ft-lbs of ME. And no other deer get spooked. You could take out a heard before they'd figure out what's going on.
Besides, it's a hobby. It's not supposed to be practical.
I did the Trailboss calculation based on bullet/case volume.
Here: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
My estimated weight of TB was 10.85. I backed off to 10.5, 10.7, etc, to 11.1 grain by 0.2 grain intervals.
Using a 180 grain Sierra RN bullet over Federal FLS/annealed brass with GM210M primers out of a 26 inch barrel Rem 700 PSS with 12" twist 10.7 gns is giving me
1041 fps, with an SD of 10.5. Using an SRT shadow can, too. VERY quiet, all you hear is the bullet impacting the berm. No keyholes at 100 yds.
With today's temp of 66.6F, Humidity 63% and Pressure of 29.99", mach is 1124 fps giving a muzzle energy of 441 ft-lbs.
This is good.
I'd previously done this with bullseye powder based on articles from Finland and other data found (about 8.2 grains), but with a MUCH wider SD.
This is fun. Can't wait to get my suppressor for my .338 LM and play with this.
What practical use is it? None yet. But hunting with suppressors opening up in a lot of states, there's still hope. A .338 bullet at 300 grains has 735 ft-lbs of ME. And no other deer get spooked. You could take out a heard before they'd figure out what's going on.
Besides, it's a hobby. It's not supposed to be practical.
Re: .308 subsonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did the Trailboss calculation based on bullet/case volume.
Here: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
My estimated weight of TB was 10.85. I backed off to 10.5, 10.7, etc, to 11.1 grain by 0.2 grain intervals.
Using a 180 grain Sierra RN bullet over Federal FLS/annealed brass with GM210M primers out of a 26 inch barrel Rem 700 PSS with 12" twist 10.7 gns is giving me
1041 fps, with an SD of 10.5. Using an SRT shadow can, too. VERY quiet, all you hear is the bullet impacting the berm. No keyholes at 100 yds.
With today's temp of 66.6F, Humidity 63% and Pressure of 29.99", mach is 1124 fps giving a muzzle energy of 441 ft-lbs.
This is good.
I'd previously done this with bullseye powder based on articles from Finland and other data found (about 8.2 grains), but with a MUCH wider SD.
This is fun. Can't wait to get my suppressor for my .338 LM and play with this.
<span style="font-weight: bold">What practical use is it?</span> None yet. But hunting with suppressors opening up in a lot of states, there's still hope. A .338 bullet at 300 grains has 735 ft-lbs of ME. And no other deer get spooked. You could take out a heard before they'd figure out what's going on.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Besides, it's a hobby. It's not supposed to be practical.</span>
</div></div>
I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did the Trailboss calculation based on bullet/case volume.
Here: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
My estimated weight of TB was 10.85. I backed off to 10.5, 10.7, etc, to 11.1 grain by 0.2 grain intervals.
Using a 180 grain Sierra RN bullet over Federal FLS/annealed brass with GM210M primers out of a 26 inch barrel Rem 700 PSS with 12" twist 10.7 gns is giving me
1041 fps, with an SD of 10.5. Using an SRT shadow can, too. VERY quiet, all you hear is the bullet impacting the berm. No keyholes at 100 yds.
With today's temp of 66.6F, Humidity 63% and Pressure of 29.99", mach is 1124 fps giving a muzzle energy of 441 ft-lbs.
This is good.
I'd previously done this with bullseye powder based on articles from Finland and other data found (about 8.2 grains), but with a MUCH wider SD.
This is fun. Can't wait to get my suppressor for my .338 LM and play with this.
<span style="font-weight: bold">What practical use is it?</span> None yet. But hunting with suppressors opening up in a lot of states, there's still hope. A .338 bullet at 300 grains has 735 ft-lbs of ME. And no other deer get spooked. You could take out a heard before they'd figure out what's going on.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Besides, it's a hobby. It's not supposed to be practical.</span>
</div></div>
I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play
Re: .308 subsonic
[/quote]I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play [/quote]
Stray dogs, stray cats, same drill.
Shoot, shovel, shut up.
But have you noticed how LOUDLY those slugs impact downrange?
[/quote]I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play
Stray dogs, stray cats, same drill.
Shoot, shovel, shut up.
But have you noticed how LOUDLY those slugs impact downrange?
Re: .308 subsonic
My 1/12 Howa does great with 150gr bump up to 180 and group size goes bad, anything heavier and I get keyholing.
If you want to go heavier move to 1/10 twist barrel.
My 1/12 Howa does great with 150gr bump up to 180 and group size goes bad, anything heavier and I get keyholing.
If you want to go heavier move to 1/10 twist barrel.
Re: .308 subsonic
my 1:12 sps-v does great with 170g 30-30 bullets and 8gr titegroup. It does fall like a rock though. 15 MOA at 100 off of my standard velocity round. The 170's sub-sonic group at about 1 moa.
my 1:12 sps-v does great with 170g 30-30 bullets and 8gr titegroup. It does fall like a rock though. 15 MOA at 100 off of my standard velocity round. The 170's sub-sonic group at about 1 moa.
Re: .308 subsonic
handy to have M3 turrets for subsonics....
handy to have M3 turrets for subsonics....
Re: .308 subsonic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play [/quote]
Stray dogs, stray cats, same drill.
Shoot, shovel, shut up.
But have you noticed how LOUDLY those slugs impact downrange? [/quote]
Oh Yea !!
Impact Thump I can get away with , My closest neighbors are my Wifes , Grandparents >200yds and Her Parents are about 400yds ..neither one of them give a shit and her Dad / Grandpa both Ex-Military themselves ...( might say we got our own little command center LOL )
we just got one lady who lives about 1/2 mile away who goes off the deep end and calls Police every time she hears a damn Gunshot ..guy next to us has a AK with a Slidefire stock and likes to rip thru magazine dumps which has got her Spooked
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>I have found it VERY Practical when taking out stray dogs right where they drop and not wanting to alert my neighbors of any foul play
Stray dogs, stray cats, same drill.
Shoot, shovel, shut up.
But have you noticed how LOUDLY those slugs impact downrange? [/quote]
Oh Yea !!
Impact Thump I can get away with , My closest neighbors are my Wifes , Grandparents >200yds and Her Parents are about 400yds ..neither one of them give a shit and her Dad / Grandpa both Ex-Military themselves ...( might say we got our own little command center LOL )
we just got one lady who lives about 1/2 mile away who goes off the deep end and calls Police every time she hears a damn Gunshot ..guy next to us has a AK with a Slidefire stock and likes to rip thru magazine dumps which has got her Spooked
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